cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: RibaldRon on May 04, 2012, 12:58:01 am

Title: Trade Cut
Post by: RibaldRon on May 04, 2012, 12:58:01 am
Would it be at all possible to lower the cut % at least?

I just don't see what purpose it serves, since every auction you post is also already costing you money.

I am not made of money and I don't have +3's to trade around for just 100 gold.  :cry:


Even at a cheap price for loom points this is currently an extra 30k gold that goes missing..
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Rebelyell on May 04, 2012, 01:11:08 am
in my opinion 10% should be awesome
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 02:33:31 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 02:41:48 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.
Fucking commie...
BTW: Should've had 100 stones on the market when you added this horrible tax...
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Adamar on May 04, 2012, 02:41:55 am
Meow the terrorist.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: EyeBeat on May 04, 2012, 02:42:05 am
Would it be at all possible to lower the cut % at least?

I just don't see what purpose it serves, since every auction you post is also already costing you money.

I am not made of money and I don't have +3's to trade around for just 100 gold.  :cry:


Even at a cheap price for loom points this is currently an extra 30k gold that goes missing..

The cut will eventually make it so people can't just sell heirloom points and wear full plate cav all the time.  They might have to use a cheaper build. 

Right now all 2 handers and even 1h shielders are just throwing in a few points to riding and still being just as viable on the ground as pure shielders and two handers because gold means nothing.

I hope this market cut eventually fixes it.

Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Aseldo on May 04, 2012, 02:55:54 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.

Except the poor don't get the money from the tax in this case :P
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: RibaldRon on May 04, 2012, 03:11:05 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.
I dunno, IMO I think that the hardcore traders have enough money and plenty of items already, I think this would impact regular players more, as the hardcore traders can still afford to trade.

Whereas, regular players starting out, will not be able to make money in such a way.  People will post items for more, and the room for profit is decreased for casual traders, not only do you have to post for >5% profit, but you'll slowly lose money if nobody buys your item.


As an example, if you were to purchase unpopular items for 300k and repost them for 320, you would slowly be able to make money under the old system.  Now somebody would have to post an item for 316k (estimated) to earn the same amount of money for themselves, while you'd have to post for over 350k to make the same amount of profit.


This also reduces the amount of money players can get for their loom points, which is typically something that only newer players sell to enter the market.  I highly doubt that established players are going to offer more money to make up for the 5% loss.





If you're looking for a gold sink, I think the auctions are a great way to achieve this, once they're set up in such a way that they're useable, as they would become a preferable way for getting rid of items, as you're GUARANTEED to sell them, maybe even at a higher profit.. or perhaps even adding a different system entirely, but I don't think trades are the right thing to penalize, especially since you can advertise on the forums, and simply trade items, straight up, for a fee of 100 gold.

Change as it stands seems like it's a deterrent from using the system entirely as opposed to getting gold out of the economy.


tl;dr the % cut and 100 gold fee impacts high-frequency lower-tier items more than hardcore traders and makes it harder for newer un-established players from getting into the market.


I hope this market cut eventually fixes it.
It won't, because you have to actually sell items in order to be impacted by this.  Sure, a person will lose out on 30k gold when he sells his loom point, but if he's just a tincan and using the gold to pay for his repairs it won't change a thing, 570k is still enough money to ride out several generations in the most expensive gear.

If the problem is that people sell their loom points and run around with way too much gear as a result, a weekly/monthly tax would be a much better alternative.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Ronin on May 04, 2012, 06:58:10 am
I could post logical arguments about this issue, but let me instead:

-Trade cut is ruining my game, remove it please.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Dutchydave on May 04, 2012, 08:20:14 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.

Whats wronge with the amount of gold in circulation anyway?All those peasants that run around in cheap gear are just going to have to grind harder now :wink:

Nope I will just bump my prices up 5% to cover this bs and the poor will get poorer.

How much thought went into this silly idea?I think you guys might of been running the Greek economy recently :rolleyes:

100g to list a trade,lmfao thats peanuts
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 04, 2012, 08:31:10 am
It's about reducing the overall amount of money in circulation and it will hit the hardcore traders the most.
Kinda like killing wallstreet which is a good thing.

Fine for the game, but don't make moronic comments like this about real life, you commie.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 04, 2012, 09:25:09 am
Yeah I don't see how its going to really knock the money out of the market. It will take fucking ages to have any impact. There are people wondering around in full +3 gear with a couple mill in their back pocket, I don't think this is going to work.

Not that its not worth trying but I just don't see it working.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the issue is the volume of plate in the field why not deal with that. The last set of "balances" have left me baffled and confused. Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that :I
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: GauisMarius on May 04, 2012, 09:53:07 am
This is a good idea, though I support a lower, if any, cut rate for the poor, and higher rates for the rich. That is all.

My name is Uhtred, and I approve this message.

Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Dutchydave on May 04, 2012, 10:39:36 am
Got to say im happy to pay 2500g a week for 25 offers :P
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Khalim on May 04, 2012, 11:02:09 am
The change might be good to prevent "trading abuse" (like somebody said: wallstreet) but

it is the wrong way to reduce inflation, because it will just lower the level of Armor people will wear. Ok, this might be intended too, but in order to have a stable economy it needs viable goldsinks.
To my mind its not a good idea to wear heavy armor, because it costs and slows me down.
If you want to reduce inflation you have to make wearing armor(or using more expensive weapons) a more viable goldsink.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Jacko on May 04, 2012, 11:18:19 am
Regardless of political persuasion, every "MMO" kind of game has money sinks. This one is LONG overdue.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:09:16 pm
I like how some people go super mad because their precious gold is being burned.

Feel free to up your prices by 5% so people buy from the guys who sell stuff cheaper instead.

Also I wonder how much though went into those replies since with more money sinks and less overall gold in ciculation prices will drop.
It's not supposed to instantly have an impact but it sure will have one.

This happened way too late and there already is way too much gold in circulation, this will be changed over time.

I don't see how new players will suffer from this if they just loom their stuff and start trading items or ONLY get 617500 gold for their first loompoint...

This will obviously not be the only money sink to come, there will be more and kinda different ones.

You guys know what this reminds me of?
The huge OMG UPKEEP whining :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: //saxon on May 04, 2012, 12:14:49 pm
well im glad im finished on the marketplace now. Ive got the loomed items i could possibly want so i dont need to click on the marketplace anymore!

woo.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Camaris on May 04, 2012, 12:16:08 pm
I love this and they did exactly what I suggested.

PRO
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Oberyn on May 04, 2012, 01:17:14 pm
Fine for the game, but don't make moronic comments like this about real life, you commie.

How dare he insult parasites that produce absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 01:46:37 pm
All you fucking commies have done is make the poor people poorer, those people with 13 3+ items 'n' 5000mill could retire from marketplace trading right now and stay rich forever!
Down with communism! Fucking 99% don't wanna be the 1%, cRPG was a game of haves and soon to haves, now it's a game of haves 'n' won't ever haves!
TAXES ARE THE DEVIL!!! Soon you're gonna start adding welfare for poor players 'n' shitz!
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: obitus on May 04, 2012, 02:04:46 pm
the main impact of this is making it harder for noobs to get money, since all the wealthy will just trade looms around instead of loom+gold
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 04, 2012, 04:11:18 pm
How dare he insult parasites that produce absolutely nothing.

Yeah, unlike governments. Go back to school, bro.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Ronin on May 04, 2012, 05:01:20 pm
Stop crippling our income, please! I have children to look after! No more money sink, no more :cry:
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Lichen on May 04, 2012, 06:34:57 pm
Soon you're gonna start adding welfare for poor players 'n' shitz!
Gold is given out to every player no matter their performance. That's a big reason why people have so much damn gold. Then of course if that were changed so it was dependent on your individual player performance people would not like that either. What is it now 100gold per trade? Is that really unbearable? I agree with devs implementing various ways to reduce gold in circulation unless or until the way it's gained is changed.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 07:18:45 pm
What is it now 100gold per trade? Is that really unbearable? I agree with devs implementing various ways to reduce gold in circulation unless or until the way it's gained is changed.
It's 5% of a trade, yes, that is unbearable, hurt poor players like me who don't have a single 3+ item, and can't make cash on the market due to the fucking taxation.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Werfried on May 04, 2012, 07:38:27 pm
Finally we have a finance transaction tax in crpg   :P
I like it.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 07:51:01 pm
Good job, devs.

Many players started using marketplace like its stock market, buying low and selling high. It was pretty easy way to earn ten, hundred thousands of gold without much effort.

How many trades you saw asking item + gold, although item they wanted for it was in the same league as theirs. They just wanted quick and easy cash. And noobs were the ones who payed for it, with their hard earned gold.

This is a good way to put end to that.

Someone asked what's wrong with people having too much gold?

Well, on EU1 we have certain group of players whose ringleader is called DomusperkeleII. That dude wears medium plate and rides mamluke horse all the time, for several months now. He's not very skilled but high upkeep gear allows him to perform very well. You have no idea how annoying is to fight group of 4 or 5 champion mamluke horses round after round. Main point of upkeep was to put stop to it, but these guys abused marketplace to bypass upkeep.

As I said before, idea behind marketplace was to allow us to trade our loomed items. Not to buy them for gold, not to sell loom points for gold. chadz probably thought it could be interesting if he add gold-item trade but eventually that bring us here, where we have high inflation because some people have too much gold and are able to control item prices.

As Meow said, there will be more gold sinks, some should be very interesting.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Cepeshi on May 04, 2012, 07:53:33 pm
remove the fucking market all in once and allow us to reassign looms for some money, there you have your gold sink
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: BlameMeForTheNoise on May 04, 2012, 07:57:52 pm
remove the fucking market all in once and allow us to reassign looms for some money, there you have your gold sink

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 08:05:57 pm
It's 5% of a trade, yes, that is unbearable, hurt poor players like me who don't have a single 3+ item, and can't make cash on the market due to the fucking taxation.

Well, it's not like you're playing this for 1.5-2 years like some people (have no idea when you started playing, basing it on your registration date). But you seem to be decent player, unlike that Angellore or whatever his name is, who stole other people's looms.

When I wanted everything loomed, I've decided to put some effort in it. That included playing with cheap weapons and wearing light armor. I did that for half of my 13 gens, actually I think that 50% of all my playing time was using cheap gear.

Make a decent build, pick decent but cheap weapons and you will have fun and earn gold. Throwing is expensive, just like cav, especially mounted cav.

My suggestion is fake peasant, with pitchfork, 21/18 build, 6 wpf in polearms. Just wear something better than shirts but something that looks similar. Like white gambeson, for example. Pitchfork is truly powerful weapon, you can even be part time hoplite with it and some cheap but decent shield. Playing with pitchfork is something I really miss. Many cav would rush me, making a huge mistake.

Also good idea is light armor and Shortened Military Scythe, but in that case you can use Long Spear because upkeep won't be much higher.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Grumbs on May 04, 2012, 08:09:45 pm
As Meow said, there will be more gold sinks, some should be very interesting.

The devs should take note of other games and see that social status type stuff never hits a satiation point for some people. Basically add cosmetic stuff in exchange for gold. Not Hats necessarily, but rare coloured dye tubs or patterns, saches, capes, plumes, stuff like that. You can probably take 1 type of helmet and give it 5 different plumes, each more rare or more expensive than the other. Just plop them in the store for crazy amounts of gold and people with the means will buy them so they stand out from the crowd and show off how wealthy they are
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 08:47:11 pm
Well, it's not like you're playing this for 1.5-2 years like some people (have no idea when you started playing, basing it on your registration date). But you seem to be decent player, unlike that Angellore or whatever his name is, who stole other people's looms.

When I wanted everything loomed, I've decided to put some effort in it. That included playing with cheap weapons and wearing light armor. I did that for half of my 13 gens, actually I think that 50% of all my playing time was using cheap gear.

Make a decent build, pick decent but cheap weapons and you will have fun and earn gold. Throwing is expensive, just like cav, especially mounted cav. (da fuq!?)

My suggestion is fake peasant, with pitchfork, 21/18 build, 6 wpf in polearms. Just wear something better than shirts but something that looks similar. Like white gambeson, for example. Pitchfork is truly powerful weapon, you can even be part time hoplite with it and some cheap but decent shield. Playing with pitchfork is something I really miss. Many cav would rush me, making a huge mistake.

Also good idea is light armor and Shortened Military Scythe, but in that case you can use Long Spear because upkeep won't be much higher.
Leshma, you know my playstyle, I'm a HT, even if all my gear breaks and I go naked I'll stay HT, I've been making money so far this gen due to trading... also, those people who have played 1.5-2 years won't be hurt whatsoever by this shit, 'dem 13 3+ loom gen 10 people won't feel shit, all this does is stop new players from having a chance of getting rich through wise trading choices (talking about buying underprized, selling with a slight profit, not checking for typo's every ten seconds)... I'll still make money for HTing due to retiring and selling loompoints + me having quite two alts I play a lot and one of them will be ready to be sac'd soon, but still, this also removes (penalizes) shit like gambling due to the trade penalty and will generally only serve as an itch (like upkeep) for general average people, will hurt poor players trying to make cash, and won't mater whatsoever to any of the 1%rs.

Also, this will only drive item prices up as people trying to make money through good deals will now have to charge more to turn a profit and with enough people doing this they'll set the standard price which is constantly increased by 5%, and I thought everyone wanted lower prices, not higher... when I sold my loompoint and bought two 1+ items fairly cheap for all my gold (nodachi 'n' elite scimmy) not that far back I sold 'em earning like 70k in the process (in total), prices weren't skyrocketing, now I can't earn a little of small price changes, prices are gonna grow insanely by this. Earlier today I bought a loompoint for 630k, sold it on for 670k on an old pre-tax market offer, I earned 40k, if I hadn't abused a pretax offer and still sold for the same price my earning would've been 6,4k considering the 100 gold adding to market fee.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Abay on May 04, 2012, 09:04:19 pm
this cut sets a wall against inflation in the market and saves our moneys in theory, but i think that costs of loomed items or loom points will increase more (for maybe 2 months or less). then, the theory will start to work on its purpose. we will see
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 09:08:09 pm
this cut sets a wall against inflation in the market and saves our moneys in theory, but i think that costs of loomed items or loom points will increase more (for maybe 2 months or less). then, the theory will start to work on its purpose. we will see
The cut will cause a steadier price-rise than ever due to taxation on buy-selling which will cause a large prize increase rather fast.

Example is the 1+ items, the safest thing to do these kinda trades with before... since market came back up the typical lowest of 310k lightlances has been replaced with 350k items.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: BlindGuy on May 04, 2012, 09:08:50 pm
Except the poor don't get the money from the tax in this case :P

Nor do they in real life. Whats your point?

It's 5% of a trade, yes, that is unbearable, hurt poor players like me who don't have a single 3+ item, and can't make cash on the market due to the fucking taxation.

Market is not to make money. It is to get items you want, in exchange for other items. The whole gold for loompoints so I can upkeep stupid builds thing is infuriating.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: RibaldRon on May 04, 2012, 11:22:40 pm
Many players started using marketplace like its stock market, buying low and selling high. It was pretty easy way to earn ten, hundred thousands of gold without much effort.

How many trades you saw asking item + gold, although item they wanted for it was in the same league as theirs. They just wanted quick and easy cash. And noobs were the ones who payed for it, with their hard earned gold.

This is a good way to put end to that.
As somebody who bought low and sold a little higher (still well under value) I can tell you that many noobs did not buy my items, in fact, most people who bought them (after quite some time, I might add) were people I recognized from the community, as already having a lot of money and generations.  These were often the same types of people that I would buy the items from in the first place.

Often, these items would be heirloomed to be worth more money.


Why am I telling you that?


Because new players, the ones this change supposedly benefits, can not afford to do this like older and established players still can.

Did anybody before ever gripe about the price on the market?  No, because without the tax anyone was able to pick up a little extra money by providing a service... i.e. upgrading an item to a more desirable/worthwhile status, or just picking up a cheap item and posting it for a bit more, to help ensure that it'll be there for when someone wants it just a bit more.


I think people get mad when others buy cheap items in any marketplace, but it's actually a pretty valuable service.  If people only purchased items they were going to use, prices would be incredibly low.  You might say that's a good thing, but most people wouldn't end up with all of the +3's they have, as an example.  Since items would not move as quickly, the selection would be very thin, and there would be no expensive items posted for that "gotta have it now" crowd who buy it on impulse.


If anything, this system is probably BETTER for me, since I have way more gold than worth of looms.  Lots of people invested in looms long-term, and if the idea of deflation is going through, they're slowly going to get more and more screwed over in time.  With that said I still don't like this system, as you have to be actively trading to see any reduction in gold from it.  I think it's been well covered that long-time traders still have enough gold/looms to make the risky calls and still make profit in light of this.  I, as a small-time trader, am not willing to put forth the time/gold involved considering the risk and taxes, unfortunately.




Cosmetic items, I would say, are a much better solution.  Most MMOs either launch with a known gold-sink, or introduce optional ones.  I.E. player housing, when introduced, is a gigantic gold sink.  Alternatively, some MMOs have offered programs where you delete all of your junk in exchange for points.  These combat flooding, inflation AND are completely optional.  Changing the status quo is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Dutchydave on May 04, 2012, 11:43:57 pm
Well expect to see plenty more money eaters as Meow promised.This aint going to stop hard core traders making gold,infact now they can list 25 trade offers for only 2500g per week it will give them more chance to turn items over.They will probally make less in 1 transaction but will make more transactions per week.

A lot of people I know are already getting sick of crpg and the market place is the only reason they still bother,nerf their fun to much and watch the WOTR sales increase.

The whole idea behind this is totally communist.If you want to stop people making money on the market place,then why the f did you make a market place to start with,surley you guys had enough foresight to see people would trade just to make gold(we are talking about humans).Personally that aspect is my favorite part of crpg now there isnt a Aussie server.

The inflation wasnt a problem anyway,it didnt hurt the poor or new players as the loompoint value increased accordingly.Inflation is a fact of life and if you guys put a halt to it,then you have achieved what no government in history has been able to do.

This is not going to stop the desperate or dumb people selling crap cheap or buying gear that is over priced.Even if the prices of everything drops then the hard core traders make less,but due to deflation they make the same,derrrr.

If you dont want traders making money on a market place you designed,then get rid of gold trades all together and give players an option to sell there loompoint at what ever you consider a reasonable price. You devs have tried to be to smart here and taken the most confusing approach to fix this so called problem. My advice is make it more simple not more confusing,but it seems you are just making the same mistakes as all these silly governments running countrires over 1000's of years have made.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 04, 2012, 11:53:09 pm
Power to the small-time somewhat new traders! This tax is killing us! Trying to seperate the 1% from the 99% with a gigantic fucking brickwall! This is bullshit! I don't mind people being richer than me as long as I have a chance to through smart choices become just as rich oneday!
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Lichen on May 05, 2012, 12:21:26 am
As somebody who bought low and sold a little higher (still well under value) I can tell you that many noobs did not buy my items, in fact, most people who bought them (after quite some time, I might add) were people I recognized from the community, as already having a lot of money and generations.  These were often the same types of people that I would buy the items from in the first place.

Often, these items would be heirloomed to be worth more money.


Why am I telling you that?


Because new players, the ones this change supposedly benefits, can not afford to do this like older and established players still can.
The change does benefit noobs since there will be less old players swimming in gold able to largely ignore upkeep.  I don't think too many noobs work the market for profit unless they are selling a loom which is still simple and easy.

Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 05, 2012, 02:24:39 am
The change does benefit noobs since there will be less old players swimming in gold able to largely ignore upkeep.  I don't think too many noobs work the market for profit unless they are selling a loom which is still simple and easy.
First thing I did when I sold my loompoint was invest it in looms, what this change does is stop poor people from getting rich, it doesn't in anyway actually affect the 1% unless devs do a wipe.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Grumbs on May 05, 2012, 02:32:21 am
It physically deletes gold from the economy and affects mostly those who do the most trades, who therefore will most likely be the most wealthy

Newbies might get less for something, but the prices will stabilise but with a steady gold sink to reduce some inflation
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 05, 2012, 06:54:29 am
I like how some people go super mad because their precious gold is being burned.

Feel free to up your prices by 5% so people buy from the guys who sell stuff cheaper instead.

Also I wonder how much though went into those replies since with more money sinks and less overall gold in ciculation prices will drop.
It's not supposed to instantly have an impact but it sure will have one.

This happened way too late and there already is way too much gold in circulation, this will be changed over time.

I don't see how new players will suffer from this if they just loom their stuff and start trading items or ONLY get 617500 gold for their first loompoint...

This will obviously not be the only money sink to come, there will be more and kinda different ones.

You guys know what this reminds me of?
The huge OMG UPKEEP whining :mrgreen:

What is the problem all this "money sink" business is addressing?

Also can the auction system be shut down until its ready to go live its got some awesome "features".

----------------------------------------------------

5% transaction tax can't beat the amount of money being generated by the player base through playing the game. They will just ditch more gear and grind a bit more to pump up their buying and selling and at a some point hit an obscene amount gold and be able to just piss 800k against the wall. So if this is some sort of attempt at in game balance it just isn't going to fly. Most of the guys I play with and hang out in TS with have complete sets of +3 gear and millions and million of gold... This isn't going to do what it seems to be intended to do, so what is it actually intended to do?

The devs aren't stupid no matter how angry they make me with some of there decisions but I just can't figure this out. WHAT IS IT DOING! AHHHH!

If people "avoiding" the upkeep system is the problem, invent a better system. Balance items harder. I don't know :I bah give me back me csites :...(
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Angantyr on May 05, 2012, 04:09:41 pm
Sure a money sink was needed and sure this hits newer players more; even if they trade less on market it will take them longer to accumulate looms just for their own gear now where the majority of old players who have their full sets + tradeable looms + money on the side just don't really care.

It's nice seeing something done in this regard but I just feel so many other good gold sink suggestions have been offered on these forums, hitting everyone but draining the coffers of the really rich more than the ones who already struggle.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Grumbs on May 05, 2012, 04:21:46 pm
Don't forget how important tradable loom points will be for pure newbies. Most thorough bred newbs wouldn't go on the forum and sell their loom point, they would loom an actual item. Then they may find they don't really want that or they loom a bad item and sell a +1 for less than a loom point value. Or they loom an item 3 times, which is less efficient than buying the item yourself after selling loom points.

Getting to 31 then being able to simply sell the loom on the market is a really good addition for real newbs, they will generally end up more wealthy sooner, even if there is a 5% tax. The price will go up a bit to cover the tax but prices will generally not rise as quickly as before imo

Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Oberyn on May 05, 2012, 04:33:03 pm
Yeah, unlike governments. Go back to school, bro.

Lol, libertarians. The only thing more naive and less in touch with reality than commies. Although, I am forgetting anarchists, they're even more ridiculous, both the capitalist and commie versions.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Angantyr on May 05, 2012, 04:43:18 pm
Noam Chomsky on modern misuse and misinterpretation of the term 'libertarian' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIpJQEcXP7A&list=FLck2ToW6_zytMkNacEfu4VQ&index=20&feature=plpp_video)
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Oberyn on May 05, 2012, 04:48:41 pm
Well of course, the meanings of Republican and Democrat also have an uniquely American meaning, that isn't necessarily linked to the ideology that spawned the term. This is true in some other countries as well.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Angantyr on May 05, 2012, 05:05:53 pm
Yes. Wasn't directed at your post specifically Oberyn, but just as a general reminder that differences in political symbolism can make international discussion difficult.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: MrShine on May 09, 2012, 06:24:41 pm
Getting to 31 then being able to simply sell the loom on the market is a really good addition for real newbs, they will generally end up more wealthy sooner, even if there is a 5% tax. The price will go up a bit to cover the tax but prices will generally not rise as quickly as before imo

The ability to buy/sell loom points directly on the market is great b/c it streamlines and secures, but noobs are still making 5% less by default.  If someone makes the mistake of looming something to +1 and then regretting it that's their fault, going from level 1 to 31 as a noob gives you plenty of time to read about selling looms on the forums.

The 5% tax is by far worse on less wealthy players because the margin for profit is much lower.  People who made their millions aren't getting it by playing 24/7 (although some are I suppose), most are making it from buying low & selling high, often getting 50k+ a pop.  Now however the ability to gain gold on the market is restricted and it will take far longer to see benefits.

(click to show/hide)

TLDR The rich are already rich; the system just makes it harder for other people to get richer.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Ronin on May 09, 2012, 11:52:21 pm
I think the problem here is we do not see the full picture. By the full picture I mean the whole picture that we will have after a few more patches. Devs said that there will be more nerfs to the gold. This was just the first step.

Mrshine, I think the point here was to make the profits for player B and player C lower. That they were able to make money regularly, to be able to use expensive equipment all the time. This was to cut their profit so their money can begin to diminish.
Note: I wouldn't call Player A richer by the way. It's just that, he got quick cash or whatsoever.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: MrShine on May 10, 2012, 12:47:14 am
I think the problem here is we do not see the full picture. By the full picture I mean the whole picture that we will have after a few more patches. Devs said that there will be more nerfs to the gold. This was just the first step.

Mrshine, I think the point here was to make the profits for player B and player C lower. That they were able to make money regularly, to be able to use expensive equipment all the time. This was to cut their profit so their money can begin to diminish.
Note: I wouldn't call Player A richer by the way. It's just that, he got quick cash or whatsoever.

I have two responses:

1- Gold gained from trading looms is nothing compared to gold gained by selling loompoints.  If the point was to prevent people from wearing whatever they want it completely fails.  Even if I sold a loompoint for 300k I could wear pretty much whatever I wanted the entire gen and still have gold leftover.

2- Gear balance based on upkeep became trivial as soon as the marketplace came into existence.  I don't know why there is a push to try to balance based on repairs anymore, there is too great a disparity between the haves and the have nots that anything that is implemented to hurt the 'haves' will completely fuck over the 'have nots', and anything designed to be gentle to the 'have nots' will be completely trivial to the 'haves'.  Honestly it would be best if the devs simply dropped any hopes to balance based on repair cost... it was a bad system from the start tbh.

Why is there a war on the rich anyways?  Why exactly is it so bad that there is a lot of gold in the system? It's not like the poorer players are hurt by the rich having a lot of money, if anything more money in the system is GOOD for newer players to get over that original gold barrier.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 10, 2012, 12:52:58 am
2- Gear balance based on upkeep became trivial as soon as the marketplace came into existence.  I don't know why there is a push to try to balance based on repairs anymore, there is too great a disparity between the haves and the have nots that anything that is implemented to hurt the 'haves' will completely fuck over the 'have nots', and anything designed to be gentle to the 'have nots' will be completely trivial to the 'haves'.  Honestly it would be best if the devs simply dropped any hopes to balance based on repair cost... it was a bad system from the start tbh.
1+! Now buff that fucking Dadao!!!
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 10, 2012, 08:49:22 am
Lol, libertarians. The only thing more naive and less in touch with reality than commies. Although, I am forgetting anarchists, they're even more ridiculous, both the capitalist and commie versions.

In time, all the fools will get their hats.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Ronin on May 11, 2012, 08:22:05 pm
I have two responses:

1- Gold gained from trading looms is nothing compared to gold gained by selling loompoints.  If the point was to prevent people from wearing whatever they want it completely fails.  Even if I sold a loompoint for 300k I could wear pretty much whatever I wanted the entire gen and still have gold leftover.

2- Gear balance based on upkeep became trivial as soon as the marketplace came into existence.  I don't know why there is a push to try to balance based on repairs anymore, there is too great a disparity between the haves and the have nots that anything that is implemented to hurt the 'haves' will completely fuck over the 'have nots', and anything designed to be gentle to the 'have nots' will be completely trivial to the 'haves'.  Honestly it would be best if the devs simply dropped any hopes to balance based on repair cost... it was a bad system from the start tbh.

Why is there a war on the rich anyways?  Why exactly is it so bad that there is a lot of gold in the system? It's not like the poorer players are hurt by the rich having a lot of money, if anything more money in the system is GOOD for newer players to get over that original gold barrier.
Then let me respond:
1- You are right. I personally have 3 mw items and over 1 million gold; and planning to go above level 30 as a horse archer. Since, I won't retire anymore I won't have any more loompoints to sell. So, I was trying to make money with trading. Because I know my gold will slowly diminish and I am looking ways to prevent this being happen. Since this might force me to use cheaper equipment from time to time (which will hardly happen still) I can see why devs want to put this system. Cutting the way of making easy money or encouraging people to retire to be able to wear expensive shit. As easily realized, it's far from being useful. But again, let me repeat myself we are not seeing the full picture we will have in the future. The devs said this is just a beginning, and more "cuts" will come (or am I seeing hallucinations?)

2-Can't agree more. As I have explained (what you all knew already), the current is still not fully effective to balance things out. Actually trying to make balance with the gold is fully effective. Millionaires are still have enough money to do what they want, it just becomes harder and harder for the low classes of calradia. But, let's not forget repairs and trade cuts actually do have some results in terms of statistics. Some people were forced to plan what gear should be using, while some older players remained untouched. Meaning that in a battle 30vs30, there won't be 20 knights per team, but only 3-4 ones. Meaning that, it was "macro" not "micro". After all, both teams do have same chance to win in principle (without a banner balance of course). Which is something I like that it was rewarding older, experienced and clever players. I know many people will not agree but I think, "macro" balance is better than "micro" balance. After all, it is possible to gain the upper hand in 1v1 but not in 30v30 (at least in principle).
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Torost on May 11, 2012, 09:31:16 pm
An increased tax on trading will only foster "blackmarket" activities, more prone to scamming.

Thus the established traders with an already good rep will get even more action and better margins.

Add fancy novelty items as goldsinks, or a 4th heirloompoint for 10 million gold.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: GauisMarius on May 13, 2012, 09:08:51 pm
Prices are being raised so players don't lose money due to the trade cut. Which is not good for buyers.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Turboflex on May 14, 2012, 04:34:58 pm
Prices are being raised so players don't lose money due to the trade cut. Which is not good for buyers.

then don't buy them..and prices will fall.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 14, 2012, 04:51:00 pm
then don't buy them..and prices will fall.
And you seriously think that's gonna happen?
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: Turboflex on May 14, 2012, 05:38:02 pm
RIght now sellers have raised prices on loompoints, mostly cuz surprisingly the supply hasn't really increased even with easier selling method, but I don't see prices of actual heirloom items going up. If anything they've dropped 5% cuz gross prices have stayed the same, but sellers are eating the 5% cut.
Title: Re: Trade Cut
Post by: MrShine on May 14, 2012, 05:52:28 pm
I think we're simply going to see less up on the market.  People are going to hold onto things if they can't sell them for a profit/at least break even.  I know that if I don't see an opportunity to profit on a trade I'll just hold onto the loom until something comes up.