cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Rumblood on April 23, 2012, 08:26:08 pm

Title: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Rumblood on April 23, 2012, 08:26:08 pm
I'm trying to gauge how many archers or even pseudo-archers have tried or currently use the Yumi. If you have a personalized experience, post it up and tell us!
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on April 23, 2012, 08:31:07 pm
i know that black corsair rs use it, and pretty well.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2012, 08:40:32 pm
Weaboos.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on April 23, 2012, 09:41:01 pm
I will use it. Assuming that I can find it, or have to buy 3 looms in a row.
It's stats are also nice. 2 damage for being only 1 point slower in speed. The only drawback is possibly the missile speed, and the existence of better bows for a ground archer.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Cup1d on April 23, 2012, 10:30:37 pm
It's best 1slot bow. More accurate than hornbow\rusbow, with better rate of fire.
 
All this rumours about missile speed is overrated. Just remember what missile speed has hornbow before body\head shot rebalance.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on April 23, 2012, 11:11:51 pm
I liked using it on my horse archer with 18/21 build, only 3 HA but it's still fine.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Memento_Mori on April 24, 2012, 02:55:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

TLDR

yumi is a slightly slower slightly more powerful horn bow, with the lowest missile speed of all bows, less accuracy and higher difficulty requirement
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Aleskander on April 24, 2012, 04:17:00 pm
I don't like it, but I've seen some good archers use it well.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Miwiw on April 24, 2012, 04:19:19 pm
I was interested in it after I noticed it has 1 slot but I didn't play with it yet. If 6 PD I always went Rus or Long Bow due to dmg reasons.
Probably gonna try it in a future generation.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: PanPan on April 24, 2012, 04:23:14 pm
It's Epic. But I'll stick to my Long Bow.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on April 24, 2012, 06:22:52 pm
Hmm... Memento Mori if you're not using your yumi, would you be interested in trading it? I reeeeallly need that yumi. Pwetty please with marshmellows and sugar on top :oops:
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ptolemy on April 25, 2012, 01:38:07 am
I used to use it, but frankly it's pretty useless. The main problem is that it has no long range capabilities, since it has some weird arrow 'dip' on it that makes it utterly useless past about 30m. It's just not accurate enough even at short distances and while it does pack a punch if you can hit with it, those hits are far too few and far between to make it viable as a bow choice over the Horn or Rus bow.

IMO, it should be a 5 PD weapon not a 6, since both the Rus and Long bow are more accurate and the speed difference between the Yumi and the Rus bow is negligable. Taking into account that it's only one slot, that puts it into the same class as the Horn bow which shoots much faster and more accurately (in my experience) and thus is a far more useful weapon (especially since the headshot buff). Conversely, the difference between the speed of the Yumi and the Rus basically isn't there, so why would you take an albeit 1 slot Yumi, when you can take a harder hitting bow with more accuracy?

This is the main problem with it I think, but it's probably set up this way because all weaboo weapons are either priced poorly, or made useless by their stats (i.e wakizashi). Either the Yumi should be more accurate, or faster firing or have it's power draw requirement reduced in order to make it an actually competative bow, rather than a style choice that most don't make because of it's uselessness.

My two cents.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on April 25, 2012, 01:42:22 am
I used to use it, but frankly it's pretty useless. The main problem is that it has no long range capabilities, since it has some weird arrow 'dip' on it that makes it utterly useless past about 30m. It's just not accurate enough even at short distances and while it does pack a punch if you can hit with it, those hits are far too few and far between to make it viable as a bow choice over the Horn or Rus bow.

IMO, it should be a 5 PD weapon not a 6, since both the Rus and Long bow are more accurate and the speed difference between the Yumi and the Rus bow is negligable. Taking into account that it's only one slot, that puts it into the same class as the Horn bow which shoots much faster and more accurately (in my experience) and thus is a far more useful weapon (especially since the headshot buff). Conversely, the difference between the speed of the Yumi and the Rus basically isn't there, so why would you take an albeit 1 slot Yumi, when you can take a harder hitting bow with more accuracy?

This is the main problem with it I think, but it's probably set up this way because all weaboo weapons are either priced poorly, or made useless by their stats (i.e wakizashi). Either the Yumi should be more accurate, or faster firing or have it's power draw requirement reduced in order to make it an actually competative bow, rather than a style choice that most don't make because of it's uselessness.

My two cents.

But did you used a non-loomed yumi or +3 yumi. Because as long as it's accuracy and missile speed is at a reasonable value, that means it is just fine. Which is increased by looms. Seriously guys. I want this weapon.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Rumblood on April 25, 2012, 02:49:54 am
This is a lot more evenly split than I had expected to see. This demand here is something else I hadn't expected.
Quote
SibatamaLALA_Linsanity   24/04/2012 17:09   Masterwork Heavy Crossbow   3   0   Masterwork Yumi >   3   0
Kojiro007   24/04/2012 18:28   Masterwork Horn Bow   3   0   Masterwork Yumi >   3   100,000
SAMURAI_NaiCha   19/04/2012 12:58   Masterwork Long Bow   3   0   Masterwork Yumi >   3   0
Guard_Arokh_vom_Berge   22/04/2012 19:39   Masterwork Rus Bow   3   0   Masterwork Yumi >   3   0
Token_JesusNinja_MB   20/04/2012 14:40   Masterwork Spear   3   200,000   Masterwork Yumi >   3   0
Kapikulu_MahirTheKusucurtmaz   25/04/2012 00:09         1,400,000   Masterwork Yumi >   3   0
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ptolemy on April 25, 2012, 07:34:16 am
But did you used a non-loomed yumi or +3 yumi. Because as long as it's accuracy and missile speed is at a reasonable value, that means it is just fine. Which is increased by looms. Seriously guys. I want this weapon.

Non-loomed of course. Heirlooms are meant to be rare, thus we can't balance a game based on how good a masterwork version of that weapon is. If it becomes godly at masterwork, so be it, but it takes 3 generations to get it there (or a lot of money and some risk). Would you balance stones on how good they are at MW? Or a shield? Lances? I've never seen that. 2handers maybe, but we must apply balancing rules consistantly across the board, or else it is chaos.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Havoco on April 29, 2012, 01:36:20 am
I've tried the yumi however I don't really like it. It may be that I'm just so used to the rus bow but I've found myself using a nomad bow before I use a yumi(at least in strat battles). However there are members in Hospitaller that swear by the yumi. I guess it's just personal preference.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on April 29, 2012, 02:31:03 am
Seems like its the bastard of the bows. Would take a serious weaboo to use it. Roleplaying a samurai and crap, cant see why anyone would take a yumi against a horn bow.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ptolemy on April 29, 2012, 10:34:47 am
Seems like its the bastard of the bows. Would take a serious weaboo to use it.

Exactly why I used it. I do miss it, if I'm honest, but it's just not good enough to hybrid with it.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on April 29, 2012, 11:05:38 am
In my book of thought, yumi is in no comparision for the Long bow and Rus bow. If you have 6 PD, and you are a ground archer. Simply use Long bow or Rus bow.

So, this makes yumi a bow for Horse Archers, that it can be used on horseback, simply because Rus bow and Long bow can not be used from horseback. Also let's not forget Yumi is the bow of Yabusame (if I am not mistaken with the name). In other words Weaboo Horse Archers...
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So, a good horse archer with a possibly 18/18 build for level 30 has two options. Either go with a Horn bow or a Yumi (Tatar bow might be an option too). So let's compare these two:
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Missile Speed: 39 - 35
Weight: 1.2 - 1.5
Accuracy: 97 - 100
Difficulty: 5 - 6
Speed Rating: 61 - 60
Damage: 24c - 26c
Slots: 1 - 1

To sum up our determiners:
-We have 6 PD. So requirement is not a factor.
-We are a horse archer. So we can come near to our enemies, and can quickly move out. Which makes shooting faster, less valuable.
-Weight is not important, because we are riding a horse.

So now, it's time to judge:
-Horn bow has better fire rate, better missile speed. It's also a bit more cheaper.
-Yumi has better accuracy, better damage.

Seems like a fair trade. But no. Things are a bit different. Let's look at the whole table:
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We see here, as we go to left there is a change of 2cut damage between bows (except rus-long). Their fire rate also seem to decrease by 3, until horn bow. But, when we reach the gap between tatar and horn bow, it is 66 speed to 61 speed. Then in horn bow- Yumi it is 61 to 60. Meaning Yumi gains 2 more cut damage in exchange of 1 point fire rate! Of course now, there is the issue of missile speed of 35 which is even lower than the short bow (37). But a masterwork yumi has 38 missile speed, compared to the missile speed of masterwork horn bow (42). 38 missile speed is also equal to the missile speed of a regular tatar bow (38).

So the conclusion is, it's pure personal preference. It depends on if you want your arrows to move very fast, or move at a decent speed but deliver more damage when it hits. The reason we don't see many Yumi users is, however, there are not many horse archers to go with a 18/18 build. 3 horse archery is not enough, so they tend to go for 15/24, which leaves Horn bow as the only option available. Maybe tatar bow might be also nice, due to the high fire rate. But that's it. There's not much of a place for a Yumi. Yet, it is a good bow that has it's unique characteristics in my opinion.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on April 29, 2012, 01:29:49 pm
To be fair, giving it 5 requirement and maybe nerfing it in some other place would be more desirable.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Memento_Mori on April 29, 2012, 01:33:14 pm
Yumi accuracy is stated higher on the website but afaik increasing power draw decreases one's accuracy so really the horn bow is more accurate with 5 pd than a Yumi with 6. IIRC
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on April 29, 2012, 02:50:19 pm
To be fair, giving it 5 requirement and maybe nerfing it in some other place would be more desirable.
NO! Don't nerf it!
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Cup1d on April 29, 2012, 03:22:36 pm
Yumi accuracy is stated higher on the website but afaik increasing power draw decreases one's accuracy so really the horn bow is more accurate with 5 pd than a Yumi with 6. IIRC

With 6pd and 160+wpf - yumi has smaller spread than hornbow\rusbow\longbow


To be fair, giving it 5 requirement and maybe nerfing it in some other place would be more desirable.

For what reason? No one use Bow and Short Bow too, let's nerf them too a bit.

It's not a problem of the bow, it's problem about lazy people, who do not want to do any experiments.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: XyNox on April 29, 2012, 03:35:51 pm
I am one of those who decided not to bother with this bow, at my own risk of missing something of course. Missisle speed is one of my highest priorities. If the short bow had the base missile speed of an arbalest Id probably use it non stop. But since this is not the case I stick to the longbow, even though I think I would be more effective with the rusbow, but I think its ugly.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ptolemy on April 29, 2012, 08:35:15 pm
Yumi should be 5 PD. I'd be happy to use it then, as it is, I put up with it on my archer because it's a japanese bow.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Havoco on April 29, 2012, 11:50:26 pm
Maybe if they made the yumi 5pd then added the daikyu to be 6pd and unusable from horseback then I might wanna be a weeaboo.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 01, 2012, 04:13:59 am
Maybe if they made the yumi 5pd then added the daikyu to be 6pd and unusable from horseback then I might wanna be a weeaboo.

I've always found the word Yumi in cRPG a bit redundant since it's just a way of saying Bow in Japanese, but I agree, they should probably rename the Yumi to Hankyu and lower it to 5 PD and add a Daikyu for 6 PD.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Chestaclese on May 02, 2012, 11:36:59 pm
I used the yumi and will again. Once I masterwork my yumi, it's +2 atm, it will have the power of the a longbow but be much faster and only take one slot. I felt it was the best bow to loom because of it's combination of speed and power.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ronin on May 02, 2012, 11:53:59 pm
And I am buying 3 loompoints in a row, just to have this awesome bow. In case you will not sell your yumi to me of course :P
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on May 03, 2012, 09:19:51 pm
Well I say 5PD cos then it's more viable for horse archers but as a foot bow it's not that bad so I wouldn't want it overpowered.

I also like the Daikyu idea.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 05, 2012, 05:07:53 pm
There would be a simple way to give the yumi a niche:

Make it 2 Slot and 5 PD.

That way, It would be a legit choice for Horse archers, de-enabling their melee capacities but giving them a stronger bow for their builds.


For foot archers it would still mostly be crap compared to long- and rus bow, but since it´s the same right now It would be far better.

PS: Dont tell me Yumi is good for Horse archers as it is right now...It´s fucking crap because you need an 18/21 Build, and with 3 horse archery your aim is SHITE, I tested it.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 05, 2012, 05:22:15 pm
There would be a simple way to give the yumi a niche:

Make it 2 Slot and 5 PD.

That way, It would be a legit choice for Horse archers, de-enabling their melee capacities but giving them a stronger bow for their builds.


For foot archers it would still mostly be crap compared to long- and rus bow, but since it´s the same right now It would be far better.

PS: Dont tell me Yumi is good for Horse archers as it is right now...It´s fucking crap because you need an 18/21 Build, and with 3 horse archery your aim is SHITE, I tested it.

Your aim's fine, you can easily make up for your slight loss of accuracy that you get compared to 4 HA, after only a few maps of playing when I made a horse archer, I could hit targets consistently again.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Ptolemy on May 05, 2012, 06:42:52 pm
No! Don't make it 2 slots!
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 05, 2012, 07:11:03 pm
Your aim's fine, you can easily make up for your slight loss of accuracy that you get compared to 4 HA, after only a few maps of playing when I made a horse archer, I could hit targets consistently again.

No it isn´t.It becomes extremely hard to hit anything with 3 Horse Archery.Only if you trot or stand still you will be able to make anything but lucI love youhots...

Or you would need to be masterly skilled in using that bow...
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Cup1d on May 05, 2012, 07:53:13 pm
Make it 2 Slot and 5 PD.

Let's improve your suggestion - make it 3 Slot and 4 PD.
Or even better - make it 4 slot and 3 PD.

Are you sure that your suggestion is better than mine?
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Arrowblood on May 05, 2012, 07:57:39 pm
look at black corsair, hes very good with his yumi on his horse and he has a 50+ ping :!:
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: _Tak_ on May 05, 2012, 08:07:06 pm
look at black corsair, hes very good with his yumi on his horse and he has a 50+ ping :!:

Yes this is true, my horse get kill by 3 arrow from his Yumi, it doesn't needs buff. 6 PD with Arabian warhorse on Yumi = win
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 05, 2012, 08:12:56 pm
Let's improve your suggestion - make it 3 Slot and 4 PD.
Or even better - make it 4 slot and 3 PD.

Are you sure that your suggestion is better than mine?

Yes it is...Because it makes the Yumi fit into the horse archer niche.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Cup1d on May 05, 2012, 08:23:24 pm
Something is wrong with you or your suggestion dude
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 05, 2012, 11:56:12 pm
Nope.If you think about it, it´s only logical.

The Yumi is one of the "big 3" of the bows, namely the Long bow, Rus bow and the Yumi.Those are the "bigger" bows requiring 6 pd, with more damage and Accuracy.The thing that is supposed to make it unique and give it a niche right now is that it only needs 1 slot, contrary to the 2 of the other big bows.

This failed.Why?Simply because for a foot archer, if you aren´t going for style as a weaboo, one of the 2 other bows is almost always a better choice.For horse archers it fails because you need 6 pd, rendering you unable to get 4 Horse archery on level 30.

So, to make the Yumi a proper Horse archer bow, give it req pd5 and make it 2 slot.That way, it will be usable for the typical horse archer build.

Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 06, 2012, 01:25:50 am
Nope.If you think about it, it´s only logical.

The Yumi is one of the "big 3" of the bows, namely the Long bow, Rus bow and the Yumi.Those are the "bigger" bows requiring 6 pd, with more damage and Accuracy.The thing that is supposed to make it unique and give it a niche right now is that it only needs 1 slot, contrary to the 2 of the other big bows.

This failed.Why?Simply because for a foot archer, if you aren´t going for style as a weaboo, one of the 2 other bows is almost always a better choice.For horse archers it fails because you need 6 pd, rendering you unable to get 4 Horse archery on level 30.

So, to make the Yumi a proper Horse archer bow, give it req pd5 and make it 2 slot.That way, it will be usable for the typical horse archer build.

Or you could always just learn how to shoot instead of balancing weapons around what you can and can't do.

As I've said, I've used the Yumi bow on a 18/21 HA build effectively, and it would appear that we even have a so called "Black Corsair" that's effectively using the Yumi from horseback, either I'm somehow an incredibly good shot on horseback despite sucking ass as a foot archer or you're just even worse than me.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Overdriven on May 06, 2012, 02:04:00 am
Black Corsair is the ONLY person I have ever seen use a Yumi well on horse back. Everyone else gets ripped apart by horn bow HA and gives up quickly. I've never come across another Yumi HA other than Black corsair that I can't beat. It's a hard weapon to master on horseback. Certainly not a reliable bow by any standards. It's in an odd niche at the moment.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: _Tak_ on May 06, 2012, 02:10:05 am
If you don't have a loom +3 Yumi like black Corsair then stfu please
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 06, 2012, 03:55:19 am
Black Corsair is the ONLY person I have ever seen use a Yumi well on horse back. Everyone else gets ripped apart by horn bow HA and gives up quickly. I've never come across another Yumi HA other than Black corsair that I can't beat. It's a hard weapon to master on horseback. Certainly not a reliable bow by any standards. It's in an odd niche at the moment.

Doesn't mean it's any less effective, if one can do it, other people can.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Rumblood on May 06, 2012, 07:07:48 am
Or you could always just learn how to shoot instead of balancing weapons around what you can and can't do.

As I've said, I've used the Yumi bow on a 18/21 HA build effectively, and it would appear that we even have a so called "Black Corsair" that's effectively using the Yumi from horseback, either I'm somehow an incredibly good shot on horseback despite sucking ass as a foot archer or you're just even worse than me.

Same argument from the archer thread. Actual archers consider being able to shoot at range being effective, whereas others like yourself believe that being able to shoot a target from 20 feet is "effective". HA 3 is shite for being able to be anything more than a way to ride to different places, stop, then shoot, or doing the charge within 20 feet and fire that most HX use. Using that strategy, being a HX is more effective than any HA would, so why bother with a HA, Yumi or otherwise?
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: OpenPalm on May 06, 2012, 07:33:29 am

For what reason? No one use Bow and Short Bow too, let's nerf them too a bit.

It's not a problem of the bow, it's problem about lazy people, who do not want to do any experiments.

I use a shortbow and a hornbow on one of my chars.  When I use the shortbow, I use tatar arrows and aim only for other archers and peasants.  I'll also fire into fights and arrow-stun enemies so my allies can easily kill them.  It fires ridiculously fast, and is hyper-accurate.  With 5 pd it packs enough punch to just barely kill people, but it's use as a stun in melee is invaluable.  The Hornbow is more fun though because you get more kills.  :P  It's a choice you can make. 
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Overdriven on May 06, 2012, 12:42:43 pm
Doesn't mean it's any less effective, if one can do it, other people can.

Ok go take an awlpike and get as many kills as chase then. Or a lance and go do a kerrigan.

Balancing a bow, or any weapon, by the best players and in this case the only good person who uses it is an appalling idea.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 07, 2012, 07:17:10 am
Ok go take an awlpike and get as many kills as chase then. Or a lance and go do a kerrigan.

Balancing a bow, or any weapon, by the best players and in this case the only good person who uses it is an appalling idea.

Wait, are you implying poke weapons such as the awlpike is hard? Hahahahahahahah.
Title: Re: Who uses the Yumi?
Post by: Rumblood on May 07, 2012, 08:17:10 am
Wait, are you implying poke weapons such as the awlpike is hard? Hahahahahahahah.

No. He's not.

Hey look up there! Its a concept flying over your head!