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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 28, 2012, 06:53:59 pm

Title: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 28, 2012, 06:53:59 pm
Hello people!

Before i start i wish that all people who dont have any experience in those weapons, or who are jsut here to spew shit on polearms saying they are overpowered and blablabla can kindly get the f out of my thread (i guess we will still have some sadly)

It's my first thread in the game balance section. I wish to know your opinion on the poleaxes in this game!

I remember Vibe posting a thread about the (regurlar) poleaxe complaining about it's insane thrust attack (31p). At the time i was defending it's pierce attack but now I am asking myself questions. The first opinion i get from the community is : elegant poleaxe is the suckiest one, poleaxe is the master! So what troubles me is, why is the elegant poleaxe, on the site, at the top of the polearms and the most expensive one?

I will basically talk about the stats : The elegant poleaxe is the fastest one with 92 speed rating worst damage out of the lot and shortest range with it's german cousin. The poleaxe is the longest one with 141 length and the best thrust attack with 31p which is not neglectable because of the polearm insta-stab but it's the slowest (89 speed rating). There is also the german poleaxe, considered by people as the in betweener, very well balanced, 90 speed best side swing damage decent thrust attack

I'v been told that the elegant poleaxe was better before and got nerfed, is this true? did it get the nerfing bat too hard?
You can say it has the best speed, but when you know what your doing, 89 speed rating is not bad!
The poleaxe has something really good, the range, which can with good footwork get you out of a 1h range and it also has very good damage! the speed, imo is just a little minus compared to it's advantages.

what do you guys think? is there an internal poleaxe inbalance? if there is what is it? and your fix suggestion?

awaiting for your feedback

Byzantium_the_Intolerant
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Smoothrich on March 28, 2012, 07:55:59 pm
as long as they all break shields do polestun and do more pierce damage than any 2 handed sword in the game (not to mention rear horses) they are all OP as shit nerf them all
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 29, 2012, 03:11:55 am
Morningstar... *snap*

If anything they should all loose a bit of speed and gain a bit of power. But what ever they are mostly fine, I mean the cost difference is tiny, you are basically paying for speed.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: EyeBeat on March 29, 2012, 02:22:07 pm
Poleaxes can double hit people with the polestun.  It is seriously retarded and needs to be nerfed big time.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on March 29, 2012, 02:25:22 pm
Poleaxe vs Elegant Poleaxe (thread made by me many moons ago) (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13785.msg193641.html#msg193641)

PS: EyeBeat, love your sig.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 29, 2012, 03:23:37 pm
as long as they all break shields do polestagger and do more pierce damage than any 2 handed sword in the game (not to mention rear horses) they are all OP as shit nerf them all

Only part I agree with is Polestagger.

They are AXES, with Piercing points for crying out loud. Of course they'll do more damage than a simple blade.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 29, 2012, 03:41:36 pm
why alwats nerf? could we not give the legant a bit more advantages? but true 31p on poleaxe is maybe a bit high

I dont agree that the elegant should be more costly because it has more speed. If the best weapon is the poleaxe, then it should be that one the most expensive no?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on March 29, 2012, 03:45:53 pm
I dont agree that the elegant should be more costly because it has more speed. If the best weapon is the poleaxe, then it should be that one the most expensive no?

Yep I agree.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on March 29, 2012, 03:59:08 pm
Yep the Elegant poleaxe is the shittiest of the three and the most expensive. Something not entirely right there.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 29, 2012, 04:09:09 pm
wasnt it better in the past?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 29, 2012, 05:15:53 pm
wasnt it better in the past?

Loyal Elegant Poleaxe user, at your service.
I'm using it since it was implemented, somewhere in late 2010 summer, even +3-d it.

It was faster, way faster than what is it now.. so it was correct at that stage, that speed makes up for the lack of damage.

But now, I'd say it's not really holding up.

Sadly I can't remember exact damage stats, so I can't help you on this one.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 29, 2012, 05:23:55 pm
stop crying already about the elegant poleaxe PLEASE it's easymode already (just like all the other polearms)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on March 29, 2012, 05:28:21 pm
stop crying already about the elegant poleaxe PLEASE it's easymode already (just like all the other polearms)

Name of the thread is Internal Poleaxe Balance
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 29, 2012, 05:29:43 pm
stop crying already about the elegant poleaxe PLEASE it's easymode already (just like all the other polearms)


Before i start i wish that all people who dont have any experience in those weapons, or who are jsut here to spew shit on polearms saying they are overpowered and blablabla can kindly get the f out of my thread (i guess we will still have some sadly)


you are not welcomed...
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 29, 2012, 05:32:52 pm
so you're saying that polearms aren't op? :)

who cares about internal poleaxe balance? elegant is fine (apart from polestagger ofc), regular poleaxe is just blatantly op
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 29, 2012, 05:41:43 pm
who cares about internal poleaxe balance?
visibly you don't so :
 :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:[]
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Smoothrich on March 29, 2012, 10:04:30 pm
yeah, if the solution to this is buffing the elegant poleaxe, you are looking at it way wrong

you need to nerf the shit out of the poleaxe, like -3 damage on all swings, probably even more, -5'd id say, and do the same with every other poleaxe too, except maybe only -3 damage on elegant poleaxe, then it MIGHT be fair, but you'd still need to remove polestagger and make them all unbalanced

at least make the poleaxe unbalanced god damn just look at the stats on that thing its a shield busting awlpike with side swings strong as a bardiche
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Herkkutatti on March 29, 2012, 10:12:55 pm
yeah, if the solution to this is buffing the elegant poleaxe, you are looking at it way wrong

you need to nerf the shit out of the poleaxe, like -3 damage on all swings, probably even more, -5'd id say, and do the same with every other poleaxe too, except maybe only -3 damage on elegant poleaxe, then it MIGHT be fair, but you'd still need to remove polestagger and make them all unbalanced

at least make the poleaxe unbalanced god damn just look at the stats on that thing its a shield busting awlpike with side swings strong as a bardiche
QQ i just had to post this 
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 29, 2012, 10:23:17 pm
omg all this whining,  always whineing and QQ gahrg!

look at the stats,  most NA damage is dealt with the longsword,  most eu damage with the danish,  most polearm damage with the LHB waaay before any poleaxe.

back to the topic:  the elegant needs a tiny speed or damage boost id say.

Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: ArchonAlarion on March 30, 2012, 06:25:42 pm
Fix- Make elegant poleaxe do significantly more blunt damage on its secondary mode. It would then be "elegant" in it's versatility, and add more variety to the poleaxes.

Also a speed nerf to all poleaxes, with an extra speed nerf to regular poleaxe. (-2, -2, -3/4)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 30, 2012, 06:30:42 pm
why the hell do you so much want a speed nerf on poleaxes? regular poleaxe is already 89 going any lower would be too much. if ever you should nerf the poleaxe you should attack it's damage
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: ArchonAlarion on March 30, 2012, 06:33:06 pm
why the hell do you so much want a speed nerf on poleaxes? regular poleaxe is already 89 going any lower would be too much. if ever you should nerf the poleaxe you should attack it's damage

The speed of all large weapons is pretty insane already. I care less about the suggested speed nerf, than adding x-mode versatility though.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 30, 2012, 06:33:23 pm
Buff elegant a bit (2 cut or something), keep the other poleaxes as they are, nerf glaive a lot.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 30, 2012, 06:37:20 pm
The speed of all large weapons is pretty insane already. I care less about the suggested speed nerf, than adding x-mode versatility though.

yes but if we follow your argument we should nearly nerf all weapons. the weigth of all poleaxes are not higher then most weapons

agree gurnisson, glaive is stoopid
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: ArchonAlarion on March 30, 2012, 07:06:48 pm
yes but if we follow your argument we should nearly nerf all weapons. the wait of all poleaxes are not higher then most weapons

No, that does not follow.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 30, 2012, 07:15:43 pm
Buff elegant a bit (2 cut or something), keep the other poleaxes as they are, nerf glaive a lot.

This would be nice.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 30, 2012, 08:02:47 pm
i´d say take away speed nerf of elegants secondary mode and  +3 blunt damage to gnjus nose
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2012, 08:10:21 pm
Buff elegant a bit (2 cut or something), keep the other poleaxes as they are, nerf glaive a lot.

I'd say an 1c/2p buff would be indeed awesome.

Just because of it's cost. It should be way better.

Also if you check the stabs of the three weapons, Regular got 31, German got 29, Elegant got.. 26?
Where's the analogy? It should be 28.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 30, 2012, 08:15:51 pm
I'd say an 1c/2p buff would be indeed awesome.

Just because of it's cost. It should be way better.

Also if you check the stabs of the three weapons, Regular got 31, German got 29, Elegant got.. 26?
Where's the analogy? It should be 28.

so the danish gs should have more stab damage than the german gs because its more expensive?

So your point is that a weapon that costs more has to be better at everything?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 30, 2012, 08:21:54 pm
so the danish gs should have more stab damage than the german gs because its more expensive?

are you serious about your posts?
its longer,  has more slash and only costs 800 more
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2012, 08:24:27 pm
so the danish gs should have more stab damage than the german gs because its more expensive?

What the hell does 2h have to do with this?

Sorry blackmilk, I don't understand.

These weapons have special piercing points, unlike the weapons you've mentioned.

Like others said, this thread is called: Internal poleaxe balance.

So please, stop posting such nonsense.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 30, 2012, 08:40:58 pm
What the hell does 2h have to do with this?

Sorry blackmilk, I don't understand.

These weapons have special piercing points, unlike the weapons you've mentioned.

Like others said, this thread is called: Internal poleaxe balance.

So please, stop posting such nonsense.
It was an example.

Well you said that the elegant poleaxe should have more stab damage because it's more expensive and I was wondering if this should apply to other type of weapons (such a greatswords), too.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 30, 2012, 08:42:51 pm
These weapons have special piercing points, unlike the weapons you've mentioned.


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That's the piercing point of the Danish and German greatsword. Since you obviously didn't know.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on March 30, 2012, 08:52:33 pm
(click to show/hide)
The stab of a polearm is logically going to have more power by default because it is a much better stabbing motion for your body, the 2h stabbing motion is retarded.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 30, 2012, 08:52:47 pm
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That's the piercing point of the Danish and German greatsword. Since you obviously didn't know.

i beleive that this has more piercing abilities then sword :

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Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2012, 08:53:44 pm
Xant and his nitpicking again.

I said "special" piercing point, the ones you can find on poleaxes.

A tip of a sword that can stab to 2 meters won't have the same power, like the poleaxe's piercing point.
Unless you halfsword with it, but that's totally different, could we leave 2h out of this? Has nothing to do with the topic.

Want to nitpick some more?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 30, 2012, 08:54:08 pm
stop even talking about swords here goddamit -.-
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 30, 2012, 09:00:35 pm
okaaayyyyyy soo :

German Poleaxe has a higher damage output than the Elegant Poleaxe, but is slower and not as long which seems fine to me.

The Poleaxe again is longer, has a WAY higher stab damage and a slighty higher swing damage than the Elegant and it's also way longer so I guess the poleaxe needs a nerf and the "internal poleaxe balance" or how you call it should be fine.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 30, 2012, 09:18:42 pm
(click to show/hide)

you are making a good point!  however the elegant is just inferior to the other two,  not stat-wise,  but in practice. 
giving it a damage buff  would nullify the germans existance,
nerfing the poleaxe wouldnt help the elegant becoming an option.

thats my reasoning to change the elegant, and not the other two.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 30, 2012, 09:56:54 pm
may be the german one should have the best damage stats, the other two would have speed for one, the other length?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 30, 2012, 10:11:56 pm
Xant and his nitpicking again.

I said "special" piercing point, the ones you can find on poleaxes.

A tip of a sword that can stab to 2 meters won't have the same power, like the poleaxe's piercing point.
Unless you halfsword with it, but that's totally different, could we leave 2h out of this? Has nothing to do with the topic.

Want to nitpick some more?

Oh, so it's "special" now? What makes the poleaxe piercing point special? Did its mommy call it special? Is the two-handed sword piercing point strictly non-special?

Want to be retarded some more?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: HELM on March 30, 2012, 10:21:18 pm
wasnt it better in the past?
damn straight - it was the pimp shit of all weapons. Pretty much all the tin cans (including myself) used it. The main tactic was fly into a cluster fuck and run and swing in a mad frenzy, kill 3-4 guys and get killed. Ahh - those were the days. By the way, dying in the cluster was good, cause that's how you used to get xp and gold.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2012, 10:29:05 pm
Oh, so it's "special" now? What makes the poleaxe piercing point special? Did its mommy call it special? Is the two-handed sword piercing point strictly non-special?

Want to be retarded some more?

It's shorter, a different part of a weapon, dedicated only to piercing, unlike the sword's blade.
So yes, it's special.

You must be really bored to pick on bullshit like this again.
Go and nitpick on somebody else, Xant.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Ujin on March 30, 2012, 10:48:23 pm
Xant, you've failed, give it up.


P.S. Lactose elegant poleaxe was way too OP in the past, i think they slightly overnerfed it.

P.P.S. i miss my mw german poleaxe with ~98 speed from the old days :D
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 30, 2012, 11:02:00 pm
It's shorter, a different part of a weapon, dedicated only to piercing, unlike the sword's blade.
So yes, it's special.

You must be really bored to pick on bullshit like this again.
Go and nitpick on somebody else, Xant.

It's a shorter, different part of a weapon. So? Why does that automagically make it better? Sword's point is also dedicated only to piercing, you're not going to be slashing anyone with it. If you think you need to have a point like that to make a sword, you could take a look at cleavers. Or is it being a "different part" somehow making it magical in your mind?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 31, 2012, 12:04:05 am
Well you see German Steel is superior to Danish steel because Katanas hence the better stab, so obviously nerf cav as my poleaxe is useless against range.
 
Further more I think my poleaxe needs more of a buff as I'm tired of surprise butt rape, and because the elegant costs too much.

/end_logic
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 31, 2012, 01:09:09 am
^this haha
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lech on March 31, 2012, 04:02:50 pm
i beleive that this has more piercing abilities then sword :

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I believe that pointy end of that polearm do have better piercing abilities than this sword, but on the other hand deal less damage once it pierce the armor due to it's shape. Unfortunately warband engine don't support different types of piercing damage, thus in game terms we can't give aforementioned polearm better piercing value if we want to be fair (as it would mean that it's better against enemies with less resilient armor when it clearly isn't). We can only give them approximately fair value.

Speaking about internal polearm balance, i'd say decrease speed and damage a bit on longer poleaxes. Then elegant will looks more appealing (and nerf glavie).
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vexus on March 31, 2012, 04:10:13 pm
You only need to know some physics to understand that a pointy weapon will deal more damage than a flat wide tip of a blade.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 31, 2012, 04:24:33 pm
You only need to know some physics to understand that a pointy weapon will deal more damage than a flat wide tip of a blade.
You don't even really have to know any physics to understand it... It SHOULD be kinda obvious...
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 31, 2012, 06:34:22 pm
You only need to know some physics to understand that a pointy weapon will deal more damage than a flat wide tip of a blade.

Lolwut? Like Lech said, the poleaxe would pierce armor better but the sword would do a lot more damage simply because it's so much wider.
             
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Kafein on March 31, 2012, 06:53:17 pm
Lolwut? Like Lech said, the poleaxe would pierce armor better but the sword would do a lot more damage simply because it's so much wider.
             

Tbh, you get any pointy stick that large in your body (...)


...without surgery, You die.

Anyway, all 4-direction polearms need a speed nerf, polestagger going away or not.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on March 31, 2012, 06:56:00 pm
Tbh, you get any pointy stick that large in your body (...)


...without surgery, You die.

Anyway, all 4-direction polearms need a speed nerf, polestagger going away or not.

I dont get why....  is it so hard to fight somebody whith a polearm?  I see people doing good with all kinds of weapons,  why do we need inter-class balance?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 31, 2012, 07:02:31 pm
Tbh, you get any pointy stick that large in your body (...)


...without surgery, You die.

Depends on where it hits. Poleaxe's piercing point is very thin.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on March 31, 2012, 07:06:47 pm
Depends on where it hits. Poleaxe's piercing point is very thin.
Poleaxe's piercing point still pierces armour a whole lot better, than the wider tip of a sword.

That being said, implement an Estoc.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Xant on March 31, 2012, 07:12:41 pm
Poleaxe's piercing point still pierces armour a whole lot better, than the wider tip of a sword.

Yes, that's what I said.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 31, 2012, 08:29:49 pm
why do hell do you want to reduce the speed on poleaxes? dont tell me you cant keep up with them???
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lech on March 31, 2012, 10:18:32 pm
I already said it pierce armor better than sword, but it does not mean it deal more damage - quite the opposite against unarmored opponent.

Also kafein, yes - chances are you'll die. Question is, how fast ? And wider wound means more internal bleeding and greater chance to hit vital spot.

Lactose, they are LONG, aren't unbalanced, have BONUS AGAINST SHIELDS and respectable damage (including stab) - and great reach. Not to mention good speed and cool damage against heavy armor.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Jarlek on March 31, 2012, 10:51:36 pm
What I get from the discussion on the last pages...

Swords do more damage in a stab, but should have worse armour piercing... How is this about "Internal poleaxe balance"? xD

Actually, I've been thinking about this. 2h swords (and some 1h swords) should all get 35-45 stab damage, BUT it should be CUT and not pierce. Basically, they do loads of damage because of a thick/wide/whatever blade, but not pierce armour so easily because of the same reason. This would be for all 2handers and some 1h swords (the arabian swords, maybe some of the nordic/arming swords?). What say you?

OT: What about boosting the speed of the Elegant Poleaxe to 93? It's already the fastest one, so why not increase that part a bit?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vexus on March 31, 2012, 10:54:35 pm
And wider wound means more internal bleeding and greater chance to hit vital spot.

Wider wound true, but with a less probability of penetration unlike the spike on the poleaxe.

If we're going to call the realism factor, not only this specific poleaxe spike would penetrate into the person's armour/body, but the length it has is enough to reach it's back unlike a sword resulting in a far worse wound.

[On Topic]

Don't boost anything just switch the poleaxe price with the elegant price (And maybe give it an extra point or 2 in thrust/cut)

@Zapper While that would be awesome many would surely whine.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Swaggart on March 31, 2012, 11:13:49 pm
Increase the speed of the elegant by 1 and it should balance out nicely. It does have the nicest secondary mode IIRC. My alt uses a regular poleaxe and the secondary on that is as slow as old people fuck.

Also, you can't seriously expect to have a balance discussion about poleaxes with only poleaxe users. You're basically asking the people that are most biased. Even if you think you are not biased you are the primary benenficiary and anyone on the opposite end is screwed. If you cannot allow negative opinions and can't defend from their arguments, then yours have no merit. Otherwise you don't have a discussion, it's just a poleaxe circlejerk.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Smoothrich on March 31, 2012, 11:22:25 pm
don't buff the elegant, nerf the regular poleaxe, god damn

make it unbalanced at the very least
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 31, 2012, 11:30:22 pm
I already said it pierce armor better than sword, but it does not mean it deal more damage - quite the opposite against unarmored opponent.

Also kafein, yes - chances are you'll die. Question is, how fast ? And wider wound means more internal bleeding and greater chance to hit vital spot.

Lactose, they are LONG, aren't unbalanced, have BONUS AGAINST SHIELDS and respectable damage (including stab) - and great reach. Not to mention good speed and cool damage against heavy armor.

well you do know they are the best weapon of the polearm category right? its normal that they have decent stats...

and :

Polearm
---
Heavy Lance (mounted)             5,726,522  34.20%
Long Spear                        998,948    5.97%
Great Long Axe                    889,619    5.31%
Heavy Lance                       596,483    3.56%
War Spear                         590,172    3.53%
Lance (mounted)                   518,207    3.10%
Awlpike                           473,112    2.83%
Pike                              422,081    2.52%
Long Hafted Blade                 404,460    2.42%
Long War Axe                      374,745    2.24%
Swiss Halberd                     350,430    2.09%
Long Awlpike                      343,742    2.05%
Bamboo Spear                      331,902    1.98%
Light Lance (mounted)             326,311    1.95%
Poleaxe                           316,071    1.89%
German Poleaxe                    297,916    1.78%
Ashwood Pike                      292,283    1.75%
Bec de Corbin                     286,733    1.71%
Elegant Poleaxe                   257,043    1.54%
Great Long Bardiche               244,530    1.46%
Long Bardiche                     224,579    1.34%
Glaive                            221,397    1.32%
Long Maul                         197,794    1.18%
Quarter Staff                     185,474    1.11%
Great Lance (mounted)             175,944    1.05%
Scythe                            152,193    0.91%
Light Lance                       138,325    0.83%
Long Axe                          128,516    0.77% 
etc.

they are not that popular, not considered that op except maybe for poleaxe....

guys it's very nice to speak that a pleaxe would piirce better then a sword but if a sword peirces it would do more internal damage, this is kind of pointless...

and i want to make a reminder, this an internal poleaxe balance, poleaxe between them. if you have persqonnal grievance towards these weapon please create a thread of your own.

the elegant poelaxe is the most costly but is considered as the worst poleaxe

Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on March 31, 2012, 11:49:06 pm
Lactose, they are LONG, aren't unbalanced, have BONUS AGAINST SHIELDS and respectable damage (including stab) - and great reach. Not to mention good speed and cool damage against heavy armor.
So they are long and have great reach? Truly a diverse weapon.

That is actually not true. The elegant poleaxe is rather short.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on March 31, 2012, 11:50:38 pm
132 isn't rather short at all
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on March 31, 2012, 11:54:41 pm
its about 112 in 2h numbers. Its shorter than the greatsword family.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 12:05:59 am
its about 112 in 2h numbers. Its shorter than the greatsword family.

and the german one.

the 2h just outranges you all the time, on every swing. and you jsut slighlty outreach 1 handers
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: kono yaro! on April 01, 2012, 12:06:22 am
+shorter stab reach
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on April 01, 2012, 12:07:37 am
INTERNAL POLEAXE BALANCE STOP TALKIN ABOUT GREATSWORDS NOOBS LEARN2READLEARN2READLEARN2READLEARN2READLEARN2READLEARN2READLEARN2READ!!!!!
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 12:23:25 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Jarlek on April 01, 2012, 12:33:47 am
Blackmilk once tried to explain to me how OP polearms are to twohanders because of the damage of the polearm stab. Now, I'm not saying that the damage isn't higher, but when he used the elegant poleaxe's stab (the highest stab damage of the swinging polearms) and compared it to the stab of, not the german (which would be logical), but the claymore...

Makes perfect sense to compare those!
(click to show/hide)

TL;DR: Don't listen to blackmilk. He's special.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 12:43:20 am

TL;DR: Don't listen to blackmilk. He's special.

yea he's pming me now telling me to l2p...
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on April 01, 2012, 12:53:18 am
Blackmilk, I rarely get the chance to say this so I have to leap on it, but...

You are one of the few people on these forums more retarded then me...

Think on that.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on April 01, 2012, 12:58:02 am
ToD : how so?

I said that the elegant poleaxe and the german are fine but the poleaxe needs a nerf.

Jarlek what are you talking about? You got any proof maybe? Cause I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that

Lactose : ... I told you that you need to l2p if you get outranged by 2h's constantly with your elegant poleaxe. I guess it's rather difficult to get outranged by a katana as a elegant poleaxe user
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 12:59:14 am
i use elegant when im polearm, not regular poleaxe

Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Smoothrich on April 01, 2012, 01:04:09 am
i think its relevant to talk about internal poleaxe balance by bringing in great swords as a comparison since they both occupy the most expensive slots in their respective classes

especially when the "thrust specialist" great sword still does less pierce damage on thrusts then the most "underpowered" of the poleaxes!  NERF THEM ALL (ok the elegant and german gs actually do the same pierce but idc)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 01:08:30 am
i think its relevant to talk about internal poleaxe balance by bringing in great swords as a comparison since they both occupy the most expensive slots in their respective classes

especially when the "thrust specialist" great sword still does less pierce damage on thrusts then the most "underpowered" of the poleaxes!  NERF THEM ALL

thats because lech brouth up the fact that they had good range, and good reach... which wasnt relevant to internal balancing...
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 01, 2012, 01:36:12 am
How people whine about Poleaxe being overpowered when you have the glaive untouched is beyond me.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 01:49:15 am
i dont like glaive cuz it gets stuck everywhere  :?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Jarlek on April 01, 2012, 02:44:38 am
ToD : how so?

I said that the elegant poleaxe and the german are fine but the poleaxe needs a nerf.

Jarlek what are you talking about? You got any proof maybe? Cause I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that

Lactose : ... I told you that you need to l2p if you get outranged by 2h's constantly with your elegant poleaxe. I guess it's rather difficult to get outranged by a katana as a elegant poleaxe user
Sadly, I don't take screenshots of every single steam chat I have. So no, I don't have any "proof" of you doing it.

What I DO have is THIS though:
Lactose : ... I told you that you need to l2p if you get outranged by 2h's constantly with your elegant poleaxe. I guess it's rather difficult to get outranged by a katana as a elegant poleaxe user
Because here you are doing the EXACT same thing! "Dude, poleaxes aren't shorter than 2h's! Katanas are way shorter, so it's just you who suck at the game!". Oh lord! Do I even have to EXPLAIN this? So funny of you claiming I "got no proof", then giving me all I need in the next paragraph :D
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 01, 2012, 02:55:23 am
Sadly, I don't take screenshots of every single steam chat I have. So no, I don't have any "proof" of you doing it.

What I DO have is THIS though:Because here you are doing the EXACT same thing! "Dude, poleaxes aren't shorter than 2h's! Katanas are way shorter, so it's just you who suck at the game!". Oh lord! Do I even have to EXPLAIN this? So funny of you claiming I "got no proof", then giving me all I need in the next paragraph :D

lol, you got the katana speach too?  :D
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Jarlek on April 01, 2012, 02:59:19 am
lol, you got the katana speach too?  :D
Nope. All I got was from his reply to me right here in this thread. I just love he's digging his own grave :D
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on April 01, 2012, 11:23:51 am
?

He said that he gets outranged by 2handers all the time and I was wondering if that also applies to the shorter 2handers such as katana longsword bastard sword etc...

Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 01, 2012, 10:04:55 pm
?

He said that he gets outranged by 2handers all the time and I was wondering if that also applies to the shorter 2handers such as katana longsword bastard sword etc...

Did we travel through a time warp back to some time where no one(smoothrich, blackmilk) knows the animation ranges? Yes, every 2h sword that uses the 2h stab animation outranges all of the poleaxes by a silly margin (source.) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woesVWoCtkM) When compared to swords of the same price range (german, danish) the german and the elegant are outranged on each attack directions. The Poleaxe R to L is the only one to have a range advantage (a whopping 3 range.)

German Greatsword -
Overhead:123 + 15 = 138
L to R: 123 + 17 = 140
R to L: 123 + 13 = 136
stab: 123 + 80? = pike of tears

Poleaxe -
Overhead: 141 - 15 = 126
L to R: 141 - 7 = 134
R to L: 141 - 2 = 139
stab: 141 + 15 = 156

Elegant poleaxe -
Overhead: 132 - 15 = 117
L to R: 132 - 7 = 125
R to L: 132 - 2 = 130
stab: 132 + 15 = 147


***the polearm stab was believed to be +19 but from walts test it must either be +15 or the 2h stab is more than +80. I assumed its +15***
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on April 01, 2012, 11:54:24 pm
Your data is outdated

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.msg362541.html#msg362541
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: v/onMega on April 02, 2012, 12:04:24 am
Elegant Poleaxe is okay.

Its just that there is about 5 way better top polearms, easily, id even take a Great Long Bardiche over it.

The price is stupid. Dont nerf it, give it 2 more cut, 1 more pierce or reduce the price.


It is no where near the awesome GermanPoleaxe.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 02, 2012, 12:07:59 am
poleaxe is far better then elegant poleaxe

I started using the poleaxe again today and what i noticed is the damage output, i could finish my target faster, teh reach i could just backpeddal to spam 1h and someting you dont have on other poleaxes...rear horses!
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on April 02, 2012, 12:13:30 am
selling/trading +3 poleaxe everyone : )
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on April 02, 2012, 12:20:00 am
and again : nerf poleaxe
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Torben on April 02, 2012, 12:37:23 pm
Make the poleaxe unbalanced and give the elegant more speed OR pierce?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on April 02, 2012, 12:38:24 pm
Make the poleaxe unbalanced and give the elegant more speed OR pierce?

Imo I'd just chip away 2 or 3 damage off that stab, would be enough.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 02, 2012, 05:52:25 pm
Make the poleaxe unbalanced and give the elegant more speed OR pierce?

making it unbalanced would kill the weapon

elegant doesnt really need extra cut but maybe 2p for the thrust.

poleaxe could lose 1 or 2 p
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on April 02, 2012, 05:59:05 pm
If the poleaxe is nerfed then it woud be even less used due to the silly strong glaive. The damage % postings iirc already have the poleaxe at the very low end of useage compared to other polearms. I would love to see the elegant properly buffed instead.

If the poleaxe is nerfed then the glaive should be tweaked as well.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 02, 2012, 06:12:10 pm
Your data is outdated

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.msg362541.html#msg362541

I of course appreciate the testers efforts but at the very least some of those results are demonstrably false.  Polearm stab is not polearms shortest attack as shown by waltF4s 2nd video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oLf2THbKvI) Based on that glaring mistake I'll stick with the old established numbers as they jive pretty well with my in game experience (6 gens of 2h followed by 7 of polearms)[but really I'd love nothing more than one of the devs to pop in here and correct me with their numbers.]

As for actual poleaxe balance, it feels pretty good.

-The poleaxe gives you devastating pierce damage and the range lets you footwork an extra hit now and then vs shielders. If you have to duel a competent longswordsmen you're gonna have a bad time. Still its excellent at its job and feels good to use.

-The german gives you the best cut and even though its less pierce than the poleaxe its still amazing pierce damage. Yeah you've got less range so you probably aren't getting any free hits in but that also means your weapon doesn't get stuck on as much shit. When I had it I was perfectly happy with it and if the poleaxe takes any nerfs i'll gladly go back to it.

-The elegant is in a wierd spot but seemingly balanced. The other members of your family are better at bursting shields than you. You don't do as much damage as your relatives but its still decent damage (stab is the same as bec stab and really you've never once had a bec user spin stab you in the face and thought, yeah that seems underpowered.) Its speed puts you in a pretty good position vs most everything so when you don't have any support it seems like a reasonable choice (of course its a tough repair bill to swallow if your team is getting crushed.) I can never bring myself around to owning one but whenever I pick one up i'm happy with it. I want to do something to increase its usage but I just can't figure it out. Basically if you took a German Greatsword and gave it polearm animations but on the plus side gave it the ability to break shields it would be called the elegant poleaxe so when you look at it like that I don't know how you could adjust it without making it overpowered.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 03, 2012, 06:14:24 pm

Basically if you took a German Greatsword and gave it polearm animations but on the plus side gave it the ability to break shields it would be called the elegant poleaxe so when you look at it like that I don't know how you could adjust it without making it overpowered.

the german greatsword would also lose range if you give if polearm animation
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 03, 2012, 06:46:49 pm
the german greatsword would also lose range if you give if polearm animation

Yep, polearm animations are more distinct (easier to differentiate) and less range which is a big minus but on the other hand shield breaking is a big plus against anyone who doesn't fall for stutter swing. If you turned the pike of tears into the elegant poleaxe, animations and all, are you sure you'd think it needs a buff? (The flamberge has mostly polearm animations already so there is a precedent for it.) I know its a silly thought experiment as all 2h shield breakers are unbalanced but its not like it would be game breaking to increase the cost of one of the 2h shieldbreakers and make it balanced.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 03, 2012, 07:13:40 pm
the core problem, which i believed to have underlined in my very first post, is that the elegant is the most expensive and the top polearm but is worse then the other poleaxe and for some is even outclassed by some lower polearms such as glaive or bardiche
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 03, 2012, 07:56:14 pm
Its true that part of the allure of polearms is you usually get to pick a weapon thats the best at what it does. It may have shortcomings but what it does it does well.

The bec is the best can opener but has low range and since the nerfs really doesn't put out top tier damage against low armored opponents.

The long spear lets you support teammates at extreme melee range but you can only stab.

The awlpike does the best stab damage but only has 2 attacks.

The glaive gives you the longest range side swings but has a mediocre pierce and the speed (much like the GLB, poleaxe, or german) means if you have to fight a good heavy bastard or longswords men your gonna have a bad time. At least on NA I think the complaints against it have more to do with balanced builds dancing in and out of the range of all the strength retards than anything to do with the weapon itself.

And of course you get to choose from a range of balanced shieldbreakers. Its true that elegant doesn't fit the mold of best at something while having shortcomings but thats because it doesn't have glaring shortcomings.  I agree with you that it can be a mental hurdle to use a polearm that doesn't fit the mold but of the shield breakers its the best for dueling.  I suppose you could argue that being a polearm its 132 range is actually a shortcoming so maybe the devs could look at tweaking its range a little. I can see 138 or 139 making sense (enough to make me seriously consider switching to it but not so much that everyone switches outright.)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 03, 2012, 08:15:11 pm
you seem to be evading the problem by saying "it's not too bad"

and for dueling, dezi uses a poleaxe and he kicks loads of people's asses
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 03, 2012, 08:40:56 pm
Loads of people are terrible. Should we balanced based on that? I make every weapon i use (war spear, poleaxe, glaive, bec) look good. That doesn't change the fact that I'm often left saying "my life is shit right now" whenever I have to fight a skilled heavy bastard sword with my poleaxe. I would be less disadvantaged in that situation if I was using an elegant. If I want to be in the best shape to fight off a fast swords men then I'd use my war spear but then I'd do a less damage (than an elegant) and not be able to break shields. You say the 89 speed of the poleaxe is enough but thats an over simplification. Its enough if the relative difference between it and your opponents weapon is small. Fighting a 3 speed faster danish is no big deal. Fighting a 98 speed HBS that hilt slashs and double swings like it is its job is a massive pain in the ass with a weapon that's 9 speed slower.

I feel ya when you say the elegant feels like it needs a change. But if you give it more damage I swap my poleaxe for an elegant immediately. If you give it more speed I swap my poleaxe for it immediately. That should tell you something about the balance. A range buff seems to be the only thing I can think of that wouldn't make it overpowered.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 03, 2012, 08:50:05 pm
what?

this is not about making elegant better then poelaxe, its more about getting the elegant out of it's clear inferiority. it has superior pricing and is top polearm but it inferior to other poelarm, is that so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Teeth on April 03, 2012, 08:51:47 pm
The power of the elegant poleaxe lies in its elegance. It's so expensive while having shitty stats because it stuns people with its elegance.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 03, 2012, 09:13:42 pm
what?

this is not about making elegant better then poelaxe, its more about getting the elegant out of it's clear inferiority. it has superior pricing and is top polearm but it inferior to other poelarm, is that so hard to understand?

You can fidget with the price all you want but if you're a min maxer who "needs" their weapon to be the best at something you're still going to be unhappy. You think shaving 1.2k off of a 15.6k weapon(making it poleaxe price) or swapping their prices or making them all 15k is going to "fix" it for you? They all just fall under the category of expensive in my mind. If the extra 1.2k is making or breaking a loadout for you i don't know what to tell you.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: HUSTLER on April 03, 2012, 09:22:26 pm
I dunno why people use a poleaxe in the first place when u can use a glaive or ashwood pike  :lol:
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Quallen on April 03, 2012, 09:29:40 pm
Its true that were aren't talking about terribly overused weapons here. source. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,27273.msg397361.html#msg397361)

Percentage of polearm damage done for each

EU
Poleaxe - 1.89%  
German Poleaxe -1.78%  
Elegant Poleaxe -1.54%  

NA
Elegant Poleaxe - 2.53%  
Poleaxe -1.92%  
German Poleaxe  - 1.30% 
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on April 04, 2012, 07:49:10 am
nerf glaive
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: v/onMega on April 04, 2012, 09:53:31 am
what?

this is not about making elegant better then poelaxe, its more about getting the elegant out of it's clear inferiority. it has superior pricing and is top polearm but it inferior to other poelarm, is that so hard to understand?

Obviously for some ppl. it is.
Everybody who s not braindamaged knows that you are right....the other half is the ppl. you try to explain things to.


About those statistics...
Wait a little, I just play GermanPA for one gen now.

It will reach 5 % soon...^^
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 09, 2012, 09:31:02 pm
bump for justiceeeeee  8-)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Leshma on June 16, 2012, 01:27:19 pm
I think it's time to revive this topic.

I wasn't for it before when poleaxe was super OP with polestagger and spin thrust but now when poleaxe is nothing special, elegant version really does seem like shit.

Please buff it.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: BlackMilk on June 16, 2012, 01:31:31 pm
I think it's time to revive this topic.

I wasn't for it before when poleaxe was super OP with polestagger and spin thrust but now when poleaxe is nothing special, elegant version really does seem like shit.

Please buff it.
You mean you weren't for it before when you were a twohander? :wink:
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Leshma on June 16, 2012, 01:34:09 pm
I'm still twohander. I just don't like to play OP shit class, never did.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Kato on June 16, 2012, 01:40:59 pm
With turn stab nerf all shorter spears become shit compared to axes or poleaxes.
Now without polestagger little buff for blunt damage on swingable spears would be nice.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 16, 2012, 04:30:20 pm
I just don't like to play OP shit class.
Then why'd you become a danish greatsworder?
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on June 16, 2012, 04:50:12 pm
I think it's time to revive this topic.

I wasn't for it before when poleaxe was super OP with polestagger and spin thrust but now when poleaxe is nothing special, elegant version really does seem like shit.

Please buff it.

This, a million times.

As an owner of a +3 Elegant Poleaxe, I feel even more screwed since the recent updates.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Sultan Eren on June 16, 2012, 04:57:04 pm
Poleaxes are fine expect double hit stun.

Glaives OP, too fast.

Long spear and pike, turn-thrust must be removed, i think it's already done in this patch.

Shorter spears for hoplites should be buffed.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Rebelyell on June 16, 2012, 05:09:36 pm
with no stun there is nothing op in that weapons
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Christo on June 16, 2012, 05:48:41 pm
The regular poleaxe, with it's 31p stab and range, perhaps.

However, the Elegant is just teribad when compared to the other 2 poleaxes.

That 93 speed when masterworked? Doesn't do a damn thing, believe me.
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: gazda on June 16, 2012, 05:51:47 pm
is there an item balance thread that doesnt have leshma in it   :?:
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Vibe on June 16, 2012, 09:13:16 pm
Poleaxe vs Elegant Poleaxe (thread made by me many moons ago) (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13785.msg193641.html#msg193641)
Title: Re: Internal poleaxe balance
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on June 16, 2012, 09:53:51 pm
Personally I think the normal poleaxe is fine, fully loomed it

Stats:
Requirement:17 strength
Weight:3.4
Slots:2
Upkeep:1,012 gold
Speed:90
Length:141
Thrust:33 pierce
Swing:43 cut

I don't use any other poleaxe so I can't comment on them, however I can say that although the stats say 90 speed a non-loomed Glaive is faster, and no its not because they have more WPF it is just faster, I don't think the poleaxes need a nerf now seeing as polestun was taken away so there's no reason for a nerf and if you don't like the damage it does well then IMO tough shit, its a fully loomed one and Iv put time into getting these stats if you don't like it wear more armor.

I think the elegant poleaxe is fine but I haven't used it and stats never tell you the full story but from looking at the stats it seems ok but in game its probably really shit.

Normal
Requirement:16 strength               
Weight:2.8               
Slots:2
Speed:92
Length:132
Thrust:26 pierce
Swing:39 cut

+3 loomed
Weight:3.0           
Slots:2
Speed:92
Length:132
Thrust:28 pierce
Swing:42 cut

all in all I think both are fine.