cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Felagunda on March 06, 2011, 10:35:28 pm
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Before you read this post please try and understand that I TK and wound as much anyone does, on accident. Also reflective damage is stupid and should not be considered an option. I have been gone a long while, 4 1/2 months. When I came back I noticed not only the little skill most people have, as opposed to what I remember, but also the retardly high amount of FF and TK's. The way that I heard it from most people I talked to in game and in four different clans vents was that the penalty was removed b/c of the whole repair cost be implemented. The fact that you get ticks of gold and xp no matter if you die in 20 secs or 4 min 20 secs. Also if this was ever to come back they would have to bring back a bonus for getting kills. Which I think should be 25 gold and small ammount of XP as well. I do not understand such logic the end result it is people not caring about tk's or team wounds and the game going to shit imo.
So here it was I suggest. We need the penalty back! If I could have my way i would say it needs to be on battle and siege. Seeing as how people on Siege are generally more spamming and worse players though I would be fine with it just being on battle.
The penalty would have to be a gold subtraction. Some of use are gen 30 and XP is just too easy for those to even feel like a penalty. The gold rate however, is steady for all players unless you have a multiplier or course.
Ideally what i would like to see on battle servers is a 1/2 gold loss rounded down per hp point of dmg done to a teammate. I really like this idea the best because sometimes you tk a guy that has 1-10 hp with a horse bump or something just silly. That and it penalizes people based on the amount of dmg they do to their own teammates. This might be to much load on the server or just to much of a pain in the ass to code. If that is the case fine just go back to the old way with a modified gold loss something that scales with our 10X (generally speaking) post patch gold increase.
If penalty was enforced by TK only I think it should get progressively on the duration of a map. Say on one map I TK the first penalty would be 25 gold then 50, 100, 150, 175, and max out at 200 which would mean you killed 6 teammates in one map cycle.
Also we need to get rid of the pesky end of round swing.
I really think this is needed again especially in battle server. All suggestions and comments are encouraged (for those that read the post) thanks for reading.
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No.. No. and once again NO! reflective damage sucks ass, and sometimes people are being assholes and deserve it
oops
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LoL man of war I thought you could read did I say anything about reflective dmg?
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ah ok , I suppose that would work
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Nah why bother reading it since it's faster to rage first. Anyways, sounds good, although i suspect same as you about your first suggestion: too heavy on the server propably.
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LoL man of war I thought you could read did I say anything about reflective dmg?
Besides, reflective damage is a server option, not something cRPG has anything to do. So I say the server owners decide if they want reflective damage or not. I personally don't care about reflective damage.
OT: Good thinking but I have a feeling it wouldn't really work properly. Some people (here's looking at you ninjas) got immense amounts of gold anyway so they wouldn't care. While others (here's looking at you cavalry) has really big money issues and might make them be afraid of contributing. Like I saw this really good horseman just ride to the aid of two allies when they were outnumbered and couched one, bumped three (where two where instantly hacked to death by the two friendlies) and caused a big enough distraction to give other people time to help the two dudes.
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Nah why bother reading it since it's faster to rage first. Anyways, sounds good, although i suspect same as you about your first suggestion: too heavy on the server propably.
Well the 1/2 gold loss per 1hp point done to a teammate might be. But we used to have bonus based on killing and penalties based on tk's all the time. They were on even when we had the 200 man server.
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'Oh, shit! I put my points wrong. Well, it will be ok if I just commit loads of tks.' *Goes on a teamkilling spree*
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I think TK will just adapt and will use low damage weapons, just to nerve ^^
Okay, seriously, I am absolutly for TK penalty. I dont see any arguments against. People will just be more careful.
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I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens
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What about: you Tk'd me? Well at the end of round YOU will pay my upkeep cost!
Eh!? Eh!?
Ok sorry, i'm drunk...
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What about: you Tk'd me? Well at the end of round YOU will pay my upkeep cost!
Eh!? Eh!?
Ok sorry, i'm drunk...
This makes sense, and its ok your drunk :D
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I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens
I don't know man. I shoulda SS'd it but last night I was in a map where Zisa was -4 and 6. Someone else had -3 and two people -2 one person -1. It was just silly and it was revenage kills they were legit accidently TK's or at least they the people said they were. There were 2 admin logged in the map at the time. Also keep in mind they might have had way more TK's b/c you do go from -1 to 0 with one enemy kill!
And like I was saying it's just the tk's that are the problem but the rape FF on your teammates and at least a TK penalty would make people try and aviod it. That is just one example i can think of that happened last night. No telling how much FF dmg was done during that map!
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...and again, just like in several other threads on this: why don't we dump this kill-based BS and move to hitpoints-based?
- would end the stupid hunt for kills (well, ok, they can be listed in the toplists besides the real damage you caused)
- would make toplists and stats more accurate and just
- would punish not only teamkills, but also teamwounding.
The server records the hitpoints for every blow/shot/etc. anyways, so should not be a big deal.
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...and again, just like in several other threads on this: why don't we dump this kill-based BS and move to hitpoints-based?
- would end the stupid hunt for kills (well, ok, they can be listed in the toplists besides the real damage you caused)
- would make toplists and stats more accurate and just
- would punish not only teamkills, but also teamwounding.
The server records the hitpoints for every blow/shot/etc. anyways, so should not be a big deal.
Ya I really like the idea of HP penalty but at the same time to many people would complain if they lost for team wounding but didn't get money for enemy wounding or killing w/e. But I do love the idea and 1/2 gold per HP team wound done isn't much. Maybe it sould be 1 or 2 gold loss per hp so long as negative hp wouldn't apply of course. But less earned for hitting team 1/2 to 1. IDK just brainstorming thanks for the input all.
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I don't know man. I shoulda SS'd it but last night I was in a map where Zisa was -4 and 6. Someone else had -3 and two people -2 one person -1. It was just silly and it was revenage kills they were legit accidently TK's or at least they the people said they were. There were 2 admin logged in the map at the time. Also keep in mind they might have had way more TK's b/c you do go from -1 to 0 with one enemy kill!
And like I was saying it's just the tk's that are the problem but the rape FF on your teammates and at least a TK penalty would make people try and aviod it. That is just one example i can think of that happened last night. No telling how much FF dmg was done during that map!
wtf you bring me into it this for? Some guy leeched for 3 hours, causing draws at which time I started wrecking ladders, no tk's, though it would have meant didly to me if he had died on the way down. Next round out of the blue a whole clan decides attacking me is ok, so a couple of them had to die, but it might have been mistaken identity on thier part, as many were feeling hostile by that point. I hold no animosity towards any of them. I don't care about draws from maneuvering, but causing a draw due to an inability to creatively play a peasant tends to piss me off.
On the tk subject, YOU did admit you are as bad as the next in 'accidental' tk's, well, you are. Try a katana , shorter range means less tk's. Also, I dub thee Fromunda, because it suits you.
He musta said 'reflective sucks nononono' because someone is bound to suggest it, and is it that time of the month already that this comes up again?
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Yes reintroduce penalties.
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Best TK penalty would be getting no gold/xp ticks for the remainder of the round after you TK'ed. This way tking at spawn or in the early clusterfuck is discouraged while accidental tk's in the end (at the equipment screen for example) don't get penalized.
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I agree, friendly fire penalties might be needed to make people more aware of their surroundings.
When I came back I noticed not only the little skill most people have, as opposed to what I remember...
As someone who likes to tailor his play style to specific individuals, I try to keep tabs on everyone who can manual block well, has good footwork, and is capable of chamber blocking. I've got to say that I believe there are more of them now than there ever was. I don't know about you, but I recall cutting through swathes of randoms who couldn't even block the first counter-attack back then, something which I don't see as much of, unless it's in the siege server- where a lot of new pubbies tend to congregate, for some reason.
You'd see someone who could actually block the majority of hits and you'd go 'hmm, that's someone with skill'. Now, I'd say more people block than not, and it's mainly down to the other factors.
I think it's self-evident in the lack of 'heroes' who can always be relied upon to mow over the entire enemy team. All you have to do is look at the most skilled players of that time and compare how they were doing then to how they're doing now, and it's clear.
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What about: you Tk'd me? Well at the end of round YOU will pay my upkeep cost!
Eh!? Eh!?
Actually, thats probably the best idea I have seen on these forums with regards to the tk system.
It still doesnt solve the trolling issue, but trolls will be trolls no matter what you do.
I have been an adamant detractor against tk penalties, but this kind of system would actually make much more sense. After all, how many times have you been tk'd in your good gear and then had to pay upkeep on top of it? I know I have. almost every time, in fact. I would be willing to pay the penalty fee. at least this solves the problem of double penalizing the offended party.
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Actually, thats probably the best idea I have seen on these forums with regards to the tk system.
It still doesnt solve the trolling issue, but trolls will be trolls no matter what you do.
I have been an adamant detractor against tk penalties, but this kind of system would actually make much more sense. After all, how many times have you been tk'd in your good gear and then had to pay upkeep on top of it? I know I have. almost every time, in fact. I would be willing to pay the penalty fee. at least this solves the problem of double penalizing the offended party.
That is the best suggestion yet - I would LOVE to pay the upkeep for the poor bastard I just tk'd by my stupidity.
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YES!
Great idea. TK'er having to pay upkeep for TK'ee. Love it.
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Yeah, good idea, but again there is troll...
Almost at the end of the round you will see a troll jump in front of you to be tk, and you will pay his upkeep... Fail...
I guess majority of tk are accidental and majority of players are sorry when they tk, and know that it's not good for the team (to win a round) but a troll is still a troll... There is nothing to do, except ban from admins.
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...and again, just like in several other threads on this: why don't we dump this kill-based BS and move to hitpoints-based?
The server records the hitpoints for every blow/shot/etc. anyways, so should not be a big deal.
Because the server does NOT record WHO did the damage. This is the same reason why "assists" cannot be shown or recorded. It is just how the M&B engine works.
And I don't think we need a TK penalty at all. It's not even an issue of being "careful". Accidents happen. I'd say at least half the time, those accidents are the "victim's" fault for having poor situational awareness. As a melee fighter, it is YOUR JOB to know the position of archers/crossbowmen behind you who are aiming at the enemy. If you walk in front of them as they release a shot aimed at someone else, have no illusions blinding you from the truth; It is your fault for being shot.
Since intentional TKs are still against the rules on all servers, individuals who violate that rule may be kicked/banned.
TK penalties would be the biggest griefing tool for griefers ever. Think about it. No matter what type of system you use, griefers can abuse it.
Standard gold/xp penalty for a kill? Ok, let's say I'm a griefer; I spawn in naked with a knife and run around jumping in front of archers shots. Reflective damage? Same deal. What's this? You pay my upkeep if you TK me? GREAT! I spawn with 150k in gear, run around killing people till there are like 4 enemies left, then I find someone to jump in front of to make them kill me! HAVE FUN FOOTING THE BILL my old friend!!!! LOLOLOLOL
EDIT: The above scenario doesn't even address the issue of someone who has no money, and plays with buddies on the siege server. All his buddies spawn with their best gear on, line up, and naked, he kills them all with successive face shots from his 900 gold pike. Now he is responsible for the upkeep of 5 guys who get multiple free respawns in platemail with sniper crossbows and flamberges, but it doesn't matter because he has 0 gold anyhow, and the system doesn't let you get negative gold. Welcome to CRPG without upkeep again.
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Dude,
no matter what you do. no matter what system you put in place. there will always be people there to abuse the system.
The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population. There will always be Baltons and other morons doing their best to grief otherwise happy people.
That is why we have administrators.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.
I think the current system is fine for siege servers. siege is hectic and bottlenecked, and you respawn in 10-20 sec anyway. I dont care about being tk'ed or about upkeep on siege. I think siege is fairly balanced as a playstyle.
I DO however think we need a change regarding how tk's are treated in Battles.
I only have ONE life per round. I dont dont want to be tk'ed for it, and THEN pay a penalty for my gear on top of it. and visa versa. it's rather unfair, actually, in that setting.
And in the situation you outlined, that guy AND all of his buddies would still have to be alive at the end of the battle. I just dont see that happening very often in a battle server. Not to mention that EVERYONE in the server would watch it happen at the end of the round and those guys would get BANNED fairly quickly.
so again.... not a problem as I see it.
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Because the server does NOT record WHO did the damage. This is the same reason why "assists" cannot be shown or recorded. It is just how the M&B engine works.
oooops - wasn't aware of this. Hard to imagine & does not make sense - but if that is how it works, than that is how it works. ;-)
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I don't know man. I shoulda SS'd it but last night I was in a map where Zisa was -4 and 6. Someone else had -3 and two people -2 one person -1. It was just silly and it was revenage kills they were legit accidently TK's or at least they the people said they were. There were 2 admin logged in the map at the time. Also keep in mind they might have had way more TK's b/c you do go from -1 to 0 with one enemy kill!
And like I was saying it's just the tk's that are the problem but the rape FF on your teammates and at least a TK penalty would make people try and aviod it. That is just one example i can think of that happened last night. No telling how much FF dmg was done during that map!
Maybe it was a map with a lot of falling? You can get -4 or more if you keep falling into the abyss, like on that one castle map with the gap between the bridges, or if you're just fuckin around exploring new ninaj routes. Negative kills aren't just from TK's
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And in the situation you outlined, that guy AND all of his buddies would still have to be alive at the end of the battle. I just dont see that happening very often in a battle server.
That's not true, man. That specific situation was outlined as occurring on the siege server. They could do it at the beginning of the round, and since upkeep doesn't kick in until the end of the round, they'd all just respawn and the naked guy would be responsible for their upkeep for the rest of the siege round.
And so far as your 1 life in battles go, if someone is intentionally TKing you, that is against the rules. Ask for an admin, and the offender will be warned/kicked/banned. If it's an accident, then relax, and move on with your day. Accidents happen. If you get all uptight about it, you're just going to ruin your own experience. It's like people that get upset about being TKed at the end of the round...why? Who really gives a shit? The round is over. It makes no difference except for you having ONE more death in the death column, and the offender having ONE less kill in the kill column. It's all superficial.
Chill out. Relax. It's all in good fun. If it's an accident, don't hold a grudge. For those who rage at people that accidentally TK them, practice the following, and it will make you feel better:
Whenever someone accidentally TKs you and appologizes, type out "No problem, it happens. :D"
If you do this, and legitimately be light-hearted about the entire situation, I think you'll find that being TKed is much less of an issue than you currently think it to be. Unless you're playing a super-low strength build where you get TKed by glancing friendly strikes all the time, which IS frustrating, but comes with the territory of playing a low strength character.
Even if we introduced TK penalties, it would not lower the number of "accidental" TKs unless the penalty was so prohibitive that it made people not want to help their allies for fear of the penalty.
And I'd venture to say it wouldn't lower the number of intentional TKs at all. So that being the case, I think the best solution is to let it bother you less, and let the current system of punishing intentional TKers do it's job.
P.S. You do know dying does NOT have anything to do with your upkeep costs, right? It doesn't increase your chances of something breaking if you die. The only thing that matters is whether or not your team wins.
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I think the current system is fine for siege servers. siege is hectic and bottlenecked, and you respawn in 10-20 sec anyway. I dont care about being tk'ed or about upkeep on siege. I think siege is fairly balanced as a playstyle.
I do think siege should be left out of such a system. At first I was just thinking maybe it should but after really thinking about it deffinatly should.
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Even if we introduced TK penalties, it would not lower the number of "accidental" TKs unless the penalty was so prohibitive that it made people not want to help their allies for fear of the penalty.
And I'd venture to say it wouldn't lower the number of intentional TKs at all. So that being the case, I think the best solution is to let it bother you less, and let the current system of punishing intentional TKers do it's job.
P.S. You do know dying does NOT have anything to do with your upkeep costs, right? It doesn't increase your chances of something breaking if you die. The only thing that matters is whether or not your team wins.
I do know that dying doesn't affect my upkeep cost but yes it prevents me from killing that round which can help lead to a loss.
Now seeing as how FF is already set to 50% and somehow (generally guessing) I would say 25% of my damage is done by a teammate I am already to the point where when I see a 2h or pole user spamming like mad I do not help them b/c I know it will only lead to FF and then death. Take last night for an example Dan and some other 2h guy were going trying attacking some guy I had a war spear and Knightly heater shield. I told Dan in vent I was not going to help b/c that other guy was recklessly spamming . I step away and within 5 secs of having said that Dan had been killed by this person. BTW other team ended up winning that round and we had 3 TK's, no clue how much team damage that map. There was only 33 people in the server.
So me personally I am already to the point I don't help many people b/c they can't be helped. My shield would not have protect me from my teammates in that case.
Also the current system of punish tkers is a joke imo. ATS has tons of admins I am pretty sure there was 8 or more of us in the vent when me and another ATS were getting attack over and over again by some guy for no reason. I asked for a warning. The whole time I was shield up trying to protect the other ATS. I did finally stab the guy but before I did that I was in chat saying WTF stop attacking you can get ban for this.
No admins on me people don't get punish. Admins can't live online. They often don't even issue warnings or take actions unless they see the actions. When they do issue such warning or take actions it's b/c the admin was notified by a member of a clan that so and so did so and so. Knowing admins and having them trust you is always beneficial. I often wonder how many people have been ban b/c they knew an admin or knew how to get a hold of one quickly and how many people got away with this stuff for the very same reason (only admin on was a friend).
Having said all that I have no reason why no one even issued a warning to some guy that attacked me and the other ATS for over 40 Sec's straight when. The guy ended up saying in chat after he almost killed me that he was bugged. Not sure what kind of bug that is I know I have never gotten it. I do remember a bug that displayed banners on team enemies but you should be smart enough to realize it when you spawn in the middle of people with no banner. That means that ones with banners are enemy lol took me like 5 secs to figure that out when I had such a bug occur. I have no clue why no one didn't issue this guy a warning but w/e it's just a example of how easy it is for people to get away with murder all the time. Pretty sure we had an admin in vent at the time too. We both asked for a warning maybe our admin was away at the time, hs was off, or w/e the reason this is just a recent example I instantly thought of.
My point in making this whole post though was not to punish grievers. That should be an admin job. I am tired of getting stumbled by a pole user and then open up block oh look I'm dead. Oh look they don't even say sry they just lead to my death. Should really be a way to punish by dmg done. At the same time should earn something for enemy dmg done.
And you know this works both ways. Right now even though I try not to do it there is no current system that punish Berserkers. You know the long range melee users that just go nuts. Or that archer or thrower that is always firing into melee to support you. I mean I try not to do these things myself but other than people might frown on me there is no reason not to do it. When I am throwing into a crowd and I hit say Dan like last night 2X I say sry. I try to say sry for any team dmg especially when it leads directly to a death (stumble or horse bump). Sometimes though you don't even know the guys name you just hosed. My point is why not fire/throw into melee, go nuts in melee. The tk's and FF is still accidental in that case. I never read it as being against any rule just that it is frowned upon especially when you suck and hit friends alot.
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You misunderstand me and my intentions. I dont care, usually when I get TK'ed. And I am the first person typing out srry when I smash in a team mates face.
you are also incorrectly assuming that winning has ANY bearing on your upkeep.
It doesnt. at all.
I have won 8 or 9 times in a row and had upkeep on every single round. your gear has a 4% chance per item per minute to break. regardless of win status. Also, if you die within the first minute of the round you are highly unlikely to have broken equipment. because: its 4% per item, per minute that you are alive
So when I am near the end of a very good round and someone decides to "help" me win a fight, I really dont appreciate also having to pay for my gear.
Yes, I would have had to pay for it at the end of the round regardless.
So what. It still serves at a decent monetary deterent
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You misunderstand me and my intentions. I dont care, usually when I get TK'ed. And I am the first person typing out srry when I smash in a team mates face.
you are also incorrectly assuming that winning has ANY bearing on your upkeep.
It doesnt. at all.
I have won 8 or 9 times in a row and had upkeep on every single round. your gear has a 4% chance per item per minute to break. regardless of win status. Also, if you die within the first minute of the round you are highly unlikely to have broken equipment. because: its 4% per item, per minute that you are alive
I'm breaking this down into 2 parts.
First, winning halves the % chance of your item breaking. It was an update that happened shortly after they introduced the 4% figure. Can your equipment still break if you win? Absolutely, but it's less likely that you'll be repairing 6 items.
Second, it's 4% per item, per minute, period. It doesn't matter whether you're alive or dead during that time, from all of the information I've ever seen. I may be wrong on this second point, as I haven't tested it or looked at the code, but I've done a lot of reading. Also, I recall many times while wearing full plate and riding a cataphract, I'd get lanced off my horse at the start of a round and have to pay for all my stuff breaking. That does not seem to be in line with what you're suggesting.
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every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep. thats not luck. Thats consistency.
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every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep. thats not luck. Thats consistency.
Yup, remember that the XP/Gold tick is the exact same tick as the repair tick. Thus, if you manage to die before the first tick, the trigger for damaged items never effects you.
EDIT: First tick at 30 seconds, and one additional tick per 60 after that.
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every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep. thats not luck. Thats consistency.
Not if other people aren't experiencing the same trend. I have experienced upkeep costs in the same situation. And as horrible as I am in lancing duels, I'd venture to say I've probably died in the first minute of the game more often than you.
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Not if other people aren't experiencing the same trend. I have experienced upkeep costs in the same situation. And as horrible as I am in lancing duels, I'd venture to say I've probably died in the first minute of the game more often than you.
You are saying something different then him. You are saying dying within the first minute, he is saying within the first 30 seconds. Since the first tick is at 30 seconds, he is avoiding it, where as you are not.
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I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens
Well back when people lost ALOT of XP and Gold for Tks. I never really cared about getting TKed because I just thought about how much he is raging about the XP and Gold he lost.
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I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens
I disagree. Certainly on the EU servers alot of people just aren't careful around teammates anymore. When it's rare to go a full round without a teammate hitting you, it's time to reintroduce TK penalties. Also it would be lovely if a smaller penalty could be introduced for teamhits. Dying because a teammate hit you causing you to lower your block, happens alot more than actual TKs.
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I disagree. Certainly on the EU servers alot of people just aren't careful around teammates anymore. When it's rare to go a full round without a teammate hitting you, it's time to reintroduce TK penalties. Also it would be lovely if a smaller penalty could be introduced for teamhits. Dying because a teammate hit you causing you to lower your block, happens alot more than actual TKs.
Agreed. once again:
The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.
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Agreed. once again:
The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.
Who is abusing the system? People who accidentally TK you now will still accidentally TK you if there is a penalty, unless the penalty is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO prohibitive and scary that no one would ever dare to take ANY risk at all, which would make the game utterly retarded. Some of you people act as if other players are INTENTIONALLY not being careful because there is no penalty. I can assure you, this is not true with 95% of the cases where someone is accidentally hit/TKed. If you want to totally STOP accidental TKs from happening, just make it so that if you hit a teammate on accident, you're lowered back to level 1. There. No one will ever accidentally TK again. And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.
And no matter what penalty you put in place, TKers/Trolls will still TK you at spawn if their objective is to grief you. That is why it's far more effective to KICK/BAN intentional TKers than to put in ANY automated system for punishing TKs.
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No one here, NO ONE, is suggesting the extremes to which you are taking this.
A minor penalty (ranging from very minor gold hit to just plain keeping track of it on the stats pages, and posting publicly the worst offenders) would make a lot of people just that much more careful in a mele.
I, personally, am a huge offender and run wildly into a mele with my 2H. And I wouldn't mind having to pay a small penalty every time I screw up. Thats what a penalty is. No one is talking about a game altering change that will erase all team efforts. In fact, knowing that your team mates are going to be more careful of their surrounding will probably inspire a lot MORE teamwork as people work together to corner people.
Right now I let polearm users and shielders die, because I know if I go in to help they will just kill me and not care one way or the other. People just swing away without bothering to find out who is near, and other than their personal k/d it doesnt effect a damn thing. I should know. I do it all the time.
Personally, I would rather have a system like AA that lets the tk'ed person decide on whether or not to make the offender sit out the next round. This solves a lot of issues, and you wouldnt see the rampant tk revenge sprees that happen in most spawn areas. because a lot of people would be sitting out. thats a good thing.
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Some of you people act as if other players are INTENTIONALLY not being careful because there is no penalty. I can assure you, this is not true with 95% of the cases where someone is accidentally hit/TKed
And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.
And no matter what penalty you put in place, TKers/Trolls will still TK you at spawn if their objective is to grief you. That is why it's far more effective to KICK/BAN intentional TKers than to put in ANY automated system for punishing TKs.
The first bolded part is exactly what I'm saying yes, and since I have just as much proof as you (i.e. none): 95% of accidental hits/TKs are caused by people not caring whether or not they hit their teammates.
In regards to the second bolded part, did this ever happen with the old system? Not that I recall.
The last bolded part: a punishment system wouldn't be to punish intentional TKers (thats what admins are for), it would be to encourage people to be more careful with their swings.
Also, I'd like you to consider that maybe the situation, in regards to TKs, is completely different on the EU servers vs the US.
And lastly, like jspook said: minor penalty, nothing earth shattering, but enough to encourage people to watch their bloody swings.
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No one here, NO ONE, is suggesting the extremes to which you are taking this.
A minor penalty (ranging from very minor gold hit to just plain keeping track of it on the stats pages, and posting publicly the worst offenders) would make a lot of people just that much more careful in a mele.
#1, I KNOW no one is suggesting the extremes I am. That's why it won't work.
#2, A MINOR penalty will not do anything. People won't be more careful. If you are claiming that you TK now because there is no penalty, then you're the exception rather than the norm. The rest of us TRY not to TK teammates, while still attempting, to the best of our ability, to help our team win.
So my point is, why even have developers put effort and time into coding something that isn't going to be useful either way?
And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.
In regards to the bolded part, did this ever happen with the old system? Not that I recall.
And there weren't less TKs under the old system either. It still happened about the same as it does now. Don't believe me? Check with chadz, see what the numbers say.
My entire point is, you can't scare people into being careful unless the punishment is scary. And if you're not willing to go there(I'm not), then stop trying. It's effort wasted.
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#1, I KNOW no one is suggesting the extremes I am. That's why it won't work.
#2, A MINOR penalty will not do anything. People won't be more careful. If you are claiming that you TK now because there is no penalty, then you're the exception rather than the norm. The rest of us TRY not to TK teammates, while still attempting, to the best of our ability, to help our team win.
So my point is, why even have developers put effort and time into coding something that isn't going to be useful either way?
I disagree, I think a slap on the hand wil work fine. Also how much works is it? There used to be a TK penalty, all it needs is some tweaking to the new system.
Example: today I was shot by a friendly archer just as I was about to backstab an enemy. The archer had no reason to shoot at that enemy, as I what about to backstab him, but clearly the archer wanted the kill. A TK penalty might make the archer think twice about shooting at an enemy that is about to get backstabbed.
And there weren't less TKs under the old system either. It still happened about the same as it does now. Don't believe me? Check with chadz, see what the numbers say.
My entire point is, you can't scare people into being careful unless the punishment is scary. And if you're not willing to go there(I'm not), then stop trying. It's effort wasted.
I'd quite like to see those numbers. My impression is TKs have gone up. If indeed they haven't, I'd have to agree with you that's it's pointless implementing a penalty again.
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I disagree, I think a slap on the hand wil work fine.
A TK penalty might make the archer think twice about shooting at an enemy that is about to get backstabbed.
No, it won't. And no, it won't, unless the punishment is scary. Also, some of the most epic moments in this game occur when people take risks.
EXAMPLE: My teammate was in a fight 1v1, and won. Standing victorious, he was facing in the direction where most of the enemies were located. However, a ninja was creeping up behind him to stab him in the back. He looked at me, and it appeared I had my Xbow aimed straight at him. He began to raise his shield just as I fired a bolt over his shoulder. BOOM, HEADSHOT! The dishonorable ninja died, and I saved my teammates life.
If there were such a steep penalty in place that it was scary to take that shot, such epic moments would cease to exist. And if the penalty is only slight, then it will make no difference, except that devs put time into the code for nothing.
Also, I replied to your other post by editing it into the post above.
EDIT: A little background info on Heroin: When I started playing cRPG, I was a complete noob to warband in general. I had only owned the game for a week. When I was playing in my first couple days, a guy wasn't careful an TKed me. As I had seen most people in the game apologize when they TKed someone, this guy didn't. So I said something to the effect of, "No apology?" The guy proceeded to kill me at spawn every single time I spawned for the next 2 weeks. Once I had learned to play, and semi-competently defend myself, he had his buddy join in with him to TK me. It was so bad that I could not even play the game if these two guys were on. And any time I said anything about it on chat, they would accuse me of attacking them, to make me look like the bad guy to the public/admins. I recall spending HOURS being TKed over and over by those guys, with nothing I could do about it, until I discovered the forums. That entire situation happened under the old-school XP penalty that you're asking for.
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Also, I replied to your other post by editing it into the post above.
So did I. I think actual numbers would sort this discussion out pretty easily. Have TKs gone up since the penalty was removed? If yes, reinstate the penalty, if no, you're right and the penalty wouldn't make any difference anyway.
EDIT: A little background info on Heroin: When I started playing cRPG, I was a complete noob to warband in general. I had only owned the game for a week. When I was playing in my first couple days, a guy wasn't careful an TKed me. As I had seen most people in the game apologize when they TKed someone, this guy didn't. So I said something to the effect of, "No apology?" The guy proceeded to kill me at spawn every single time I spawned for the next 2 weeks. Once I had learned to play, and semi-competently defend myself, he had his buddy join in with him to TK me. It was so bad that I could not even play the game if these two guys were on. And any time I said anything about it on chat, they would accuse me of attacking them, to make me look like the bad guy to the public/admins. I recall spending HOURS being TKed over and over by those guys, with nothing I could do about it, until I discovered the forums. That entire situation happened under the old-school XP penalty that you're asking for.
Wow, that sucks, I'm amazed you stuck with it. But like I said the TK penalty isn't meant to discourage assholes (because it won't, only admins will), it's meant to encourage players to watch their swings.
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So did I. I think actual numbers would sort this discussion out pretty easily. Have TKs gone up since the penalty was removed? If yes, reinstate the penalty, if no, you're right and the penalty wouldn't make any difference anyway.
I agree. However, if the % is less than 10% more, I'd consider that NOT having gone up, since the forced swing/shoot at the end of the round probably accounts for at least 10% of the TKs that happen.
Oh, replied in previous post again, lol.
If a dev doesn't respond to this thread, I might be able to get some numbers, I'll see what I can do.
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But like I said the TK penalty isn't meant to discourage assholes (because it won't, only admins will), it's meant to encourage players to watch their swings.
I agree with you on this point, as well. Others, however, don't seem to. And that story was for them just as much as you.
EDIT: Sorry for double-post. Meant to edit into last one. Oh well.
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No, it won't. And no, it won't, unless the punishment is scary. Also, some of the most epic moments in this game occur when people take risk.
I totally agree with you. I have always loved games with risk versus reward. In the case you mentioned though you xbow a ninja in the head save a teammate okay that is a reward, saving a teammate, the glory of a risky shot well put that lead to a kill. I understand that part but where was the risk. What having to say your sry if you accidently shoot the teammate in head. Not that you even need to say sry as long as it doesn't look like it's on purpose. I don't understand your version of risk I guess.
Also, (and sry I can't paste the quote i'm not to good at forum crap and don't know how to get quotes from different post) to make a general statement that the no one will watch their FRIENDLY FIRE (I say FF b/c when I made this thread I really wanted to punish FF and not just TK'S) because the penalty isn't severe enough is deffinatly untrue. I am certainly a SOMEONE and I used to watch my swings much more b/c I didn't want to tk and lose out on gold and xp. So to say that it never held anyone back before and won't in the future is wrong. It made people think more about firing into melee or throwing and it would again if reimplimented.
BTW just today I acidently killed a teammates horse. I said sry he turned on me and hit me three times then stopped. I didn't go crying to an admin I would have liked to. If that guy had paid 1-2.5G per hp he took I woulda felt justified at least. Now I know it's not a system to prevent these things that's what admins are for but maybe these things would happen less.
Also you see alot less of well you hit me for no reason without a sry so I hit you back (usually more often) type of fights start.
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In the case you mentioned though you xbow a ninja in the head save a teammate okay that is a reward, saving a teammate, the glory of a risky shot well put that lead to a kill. I understand that part but where was the risk. What having to say your sry if you accidently shoot the teammate in head. I don't understand your version of risk I guess.
The risk is in accidentally shooting your teammate, and therefore losing that asset to your team's victory. No more risk is required.
I am certainly a SOMEONE and I used to watch my swings much more b/c I didn't want to tk and lose out on gold and xp. So to say that it never held anyone back before and won't in the future is wrong. It made people think more about firing into melee or throwing and it would again if reimplimented.
You are making strong assumptions, which would only be backed up by facts if the # of TKs were higher now than they were pre-patch. Again, I urge someone with access to statistics, if available, to post the numbers here so that we can properly evaluate the impact that no penalty has had.
Personally speaking, I get TKed less these days(because of my higher strength build), and TK others at about the same rate as I did with a penalty. Pre-patch, I wasn't worried about TKing people. I lost 1k xp and 50 gold? lol, it didn't happen enough to be scary. I still fired/threw into melee, and occasionally would TK people. But the fact of the matter is this:
#1) If I have a 50-50 shot of hitting a teammate OR an enemy, where the enemy will take 100% damage, and the friend will only take 50% damage, I'm taking the shot. It makes mathematical sense to do so, if you're playing the odds.
#2) If I consistently throw/shoot into melee, and kill an ENEMY 2 out of 3 times, and kill a friend the other 1 time, it still makes mathematical sense to take the shot.
#3) Firing into melee is worth it, especially if they are high priority enemies(cyranule, balbaroth, dan, singinintherain, etc), where their death could directly lead to my team's victory.
#4) I am less likely to fire into melee if the ally involved in the melee is someone who is dependable, and of high tactical importance to my team(cyranule, balbaroth, dan, singinintherain, etc).
Oftentimes, if I see such a high priority target engaged in melee with a peasant, or someone of little tactical value to our team, I will shoot/throw into melee with only a 50-50 chance of hitting the enemy/ally, simply because the value of killing the high priority enemy far outweighs the risk of TKing the peasant on my team.
Taking the above into consideration, if you were to add a 1k xp penalty, and a 50gp penalty to TKs, nothing above would change. I'd still follow the exact same formula for determining whether or not to fire into melee, and I'd still hit allies with the same amount of frequency.
Why? Because the formula above is all about WINNING, which is the driving force in the metagame right now. Adding a trivial penalty will not change that. So I get all the same odds as I got before, except I MAY be penalized by 1k xp and 50 gold if my gamble doesn't pay off? Who cares? If my gamble doesn't pay off, I'm likely losing MUCH more than that by losing my modifier, and if my gamble DOES pay off, I'm gaining FAR more than that by gaining a modifier.
So again, it all comes back to my main point, which has remained the same from the start: A small penalty(1-2k xp, 50-100 gold) will not have a serious effect on the number of TKs that happen. A large penalty probably will, however, if you guys are looking for support rather than opposition, a large penalty isn't the way to go. Nothing will bring out opposition to TK penalties faster than a large, scary penalty for accidents.
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#1) If I have a 50-50 shot of hitting a teammate OR an enemy, where the enemy will take 100% damage, and the friend will only take 50% damage, I'm taking the shot. It makes mathematical sense to do so, if you're playing the odds.
You're not taking into account the relative skills of those two players, and how valuable they are to their respective teams.
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You're not taking into account the relative skills of those two players, and how valuable they are to their respective teams.
You are not taking into account the rest of his post, like the fourth point...
He does address that...
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If you are TK'ed you shouldn't get a death on record.
Done. That's all that's needed.
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You are not taking into account the rest of his post, like the fourth point...
He does address that...
I like you dude. You read.
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I agree completely with heroin.
In my own experience, I rarely get tked if i'm playing seriously.
Ally swinging wildly? I let him fight until he dies.
Archers shooting at a solo enemy turning his shield into a pincushion? I stay back and don't engage the guy.
Cav just got knocked off his horse into a mass of allies? I don't try to dogpile.
Yes there will be the annoying situation where I have the upper hand in a 1v1 and I get shot by an ally, but its pretty rare.
Good players can not only avoid tking, they avoid situations that would get them tked. I was on last night when someone said bks_rhade rarely gets tked, and as odd that that sounds it's true. He doesn't get tked because he is experienced and avoids situations that get him tked.
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Best TK penalty would be getting no gold/xp ticks for the remainder of the round after you TK'ed. This way tking at spawn or in the early clusterfuck is discouraged while accidental tk's in the end (at the equipment screen for example) don't get penalized.
+1 for goodness
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I like this idea too.
A gold penalty should not be based on the upkeep costs of others because this is unfair and could be abused; killing (full plate) friends at the end of the round to save them from their expenses. It could be a fixed amount (200 gold) or be based on the level of the teammate. Teamkilling peasants would then be quite cheap like I believe it would have been in the Middle Age.
Besides a penalty system, if the developpers could fix the etheral body of dead ennemies. You know when a hit go through the body of a dead ennemy and hit a teammate. That is so unfair.
Penalties for TK would be very wise to saveguard peace (!) on the servers: it would incite players to ragepoll less since they don't have to make justice themselves for (intentional or accidental) TK.
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Teamkilling peasants would then be quite cheap like I believe it would have been in the Middle Age.
If you want to use the "like it was" argument, then I must retort as follows: In the middle ages, if no one saw you do it, and you didn't admit it, it didn't happen. To hell with text on the screen that says otherwise. Furthermore, I suspect that TKs happened in the heat of battle, on accident, and the perpetrator suffered little penalty for it aside from possibly a hit to his reputation(people not wanting to fight too close to this berserker). Beyond that, while it probably wasn't common, I'm sure intentional TKing happened as well, and again, if no witnesses, it didn't happen. Nothing like a war to cover up murder.