cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rasputin on March 04, 2011, 05:47:32 pm
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Since the grind at 30 can get slightly boring, what if once you hit 30 you would get gold/exp on personal kills, or even just experience, as encouragement to do well and to decrease the grind a tiny bit as reward for doing well.
If it gave extra gold, could lead to tincans affording heavier gear, if that turns out to be a bad thing could just be a experience boost in the 100-500 range with a possible decrease on siege servers.
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chadz already answered this.
He said he tried it and it caused horrible levels of kill stealing.
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chadz already answered this.
He said he tried it and it caused horrible levels of kill stealing.
Indeed, plus archers and other support classes/builds would get shafted.
Now, if there was a way to give a small bonus based on damage dealt, damage absorbed/blocked, number of enemies hit and the likes, I'd be all for it. Though I highly doubt that it'd be feasible.
And while archers would be even more shafted by this; bonus for being near the (siege mode) flag when an enemy is near, be it attacker or defender. Something to entice people to help the team instead of rampaging the backlines and killing idle peasants. Which, granted, can be amusing but was never helpful for the team to begin with.
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Again this thread...
Did you play before the patch?
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I cant imagine that it was worse before the patch with kill stealing(I started after).
It simple makes no sense that standing around, waiting, provides more motivation then getting kills.
When I started, I was VERY EXCITED beeing close to the battleline because I thought, that I get only xp when I was near fights. Now I know better. I could also do kamikaze leeching.
Even chadz encourages this:
OK: Being a bad player and getting no kills
And it is really not difficult to hide kamikaze leeching and do more important things along the way then active grinding, which takes too long for beginner.
My Fazit.:
chadz has a point with abolishing the kill steal issue, but the way it is now is DEFINITLY NOT BETTER! It is mandatory that SKILL has to be rewarded for a successful game on long terms.
I bet, that the game/Xp system will be changed significantly, when all people know better. I can predict this.
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Don't get me wrong, I disagree with chadz here. Just saying he probably wont support it.
I think kill stealing will be non issue or small issue.
In RL, your income was a combination of pay for service (our pay by the minute already implemented)
and standing over dead bodies. (collecting lootz)
Although, if we just gave a gold bonus to whomever was closest to the dead person at time of death ranged units would get pissed. ( But hey archers didnt get to collect loot in RL either right? (-: )
UPDATE: On a related note I think exp/gold multiplier should go up each time you get a kill without dying
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You should gain EXP/gold for the damage you deal, not for your kills. Maybe that would work
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Autoclicker, automatic hold down W, go afk for a day, be level 27?
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You should gain EXP/gold for the damage you deal, not for your kills. Maybe that would work
Short sentance which much wisdome +1 ;)
Autoclicker, automatic hold down W, go afk for a day, be level 27?
This wont work. I have not tried this yet, but First of all you have to accept your gear every round(just klicking "W" would not bypass this, so you have to use a script or something.
The only functional leeching method is to "play bad" and use Alt-Tab.
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every online/offline videogame with team deathmatch has "killsteals" or what us grownups call teamwork. staying alive for a tick per minute is dumb as shit. def needs some work.
theres no reward for killing besides winning a round. we might as well take the kills and death Tab menu off.
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I really hate how people take chadz word as if he is an omnipotent being; "It didn't work"... "Durr Okay God."
Gold should be based on winning rounds like now and also kills (very small amount for kills), experience based on proximity to the fighting like in the good ole days (i dont remember if kills counted then, but they should).
Looting skill: increases gold for kills
Trade: increases gold per minute OR decreases cost of items
Maybe tactics and training for a similar XP gain.
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I really hate how people take chadz word as if he is an omnipotent being; "It didn't work"... "Durr Okay God."
cRPG is chadz' mod. He is the one that makes the final decision on anything. If we should take anyone's word like that, it SHOULD be him. Go make your own mod and quiet. He took away my Loony Toons Axe (the weapon that kept me on this mod), and I still don't bitch about much.
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I really hate how people take chadz word as if he is an omnipotent being; "It didn't work"... "Durr Okay God."
Gold should be based on winning rounds like now and also kills (very small amount for kills), experience based on proximity to the fighting like in the good ole days (i dont remember if kills counted then, but they should).
Looting skill: increases gold for kills
Trade: increases gold per minute OR decreases cost of items
Maybe tactics and training for a similar XP gain.
First I was over enthusiastic about your suggestion, because I liked the idea that skilled players could convert their skill points to skills which are useless for combat but useful for income. (Less Powerstrike, more Looting)
But the downside of this is, that characterbuilds might get nerved. I guess nobody wants to play a "castrated" character who gets more money. Most players want to max out their combatcapability.
I think that maybe the possibility to convert gold to XP can be interessing(but only if heavy armour is cheaper and more useful)
So skilled player would have "worse" gear, but get more xp.
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No I don't like to get teamkilled even more, they've changed it the way it is for half a year by now and it's fine.
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cRPG is a TEAM BASED game. It is not a stage where you are supposed to show off your 1337 skillz and your duelling power or your superior bow aim which needs literally years of training to learn to lead your target and calculate bullet drop ( :rolleyes: ), it's there to win with your team. The killing is not the goal, it's the way. Players are rewarded for achieving the goal (= winning the fucking round).
What I like about cRPG is, that basically not the team with more/better skilled players wins, but the team with more brainpower and tactics. If you want a game where only your reflexes count, then piss off and play counterstrike, there you are rewarded for kills and can jerk off onto your k/d ratio. In cRPG you need brain, which is much more interesting and challenging than having the better reflexes or whatever. In fact having the better reflexes (e.g. for winning those super hard duels with chamberblocking and shit) is like being a body builder, who tries to raise more weight than others. But sooner or later you will reach the maximum performance your body is capable of, and there will always be someone who has a better body than you, with better reflexes or more strength.
Your brain is another story, as every human on the world can catch anything, intelligence only determines the time he needs for this. So I think a game where success is based on thinking and not on being the fastest/strongest is much more interesting.
You make the fatal mistake of assuming that a player with a good k/d ratio is a good player! That's wrong, he is only a good fighter.
Take me for example: I never manage to block more than three hits in a row, and more than often I have negative k/d-ratios. And some time ago I even used to lose most rounds, usually being balanced into the weaker team. Then I started to think about tactics, and also about making my team follow them. So I do things which don't influence my k/d ratio positively, but my (unvisible :cry: ) win/loss ratio.
- I equip three ladders for my team to be able to climb the walls of the castle the other team is spawning in (Maps created by total retards). The last slot is for my weapon. Usually I get shot to death with this setup.
- I charge through bottlenecks as first man, with my shield up all the time. Once I crossed it I don't stop but run away further, in the hope of pulling some defenders with me, relieving the bottleneck for my teammates to charge through. Usually I end up gangbanged or stopped by some penisless gaylord using the blockcrush-"feature".
- I ride around the back of the enemy team, drawing attention of enemy archers and pikeman, perhaps even splitting the enemy team up. Usually I end up with my horse being shot away under my ass and then either being shot by 20 arrows before even getting up or being gangbanged by some easy-kill-vultures.
If you want rewards for kills, I would get nothing all the time. Must be I am a bad player, huh? And those guys shooting me without having a shield, or who blockcrush me must be real pros, they deserve the bonus they got for killing me, as they have real skills.
Are you serious?
The shit I am doing usually (next to writing into teamchat while I am STILL ALIVE, to coordinate the team a bit and suggest some tactics or pointing to a mistake the other team makes or shit. Yes, really, it's not "everyone for himself" on the field :shock: ) often makes my team win. Which I think makes me a better player than most others. Making kills doesn't change anything. I saw Finn being in the losing team for 10 rounds in a row before the patch. Instead of lolstomping everything he could have written some short commands into teamchat, I bet the team would have followed them (mostly). Of course this would have costed time he could have used for killing people, so his stats would look worse. But he would have won more rounds, I bet.
If chadz would follow your suggestions, Finn would be rewarded for first behaviour (egoistic killing spree, losing the round), and punished for latter (setting up tactics, playing as a team). I think it should be the other way round. And that's the case, at the moment. I hope this will never change, and I am confident it won't.
If you want being rewarded for being the better fighter, go and ask for a special duel server where rewards are distributed by an alternative way. Then you don't have to take care about teammates and tac... oh? You already don't? Well, then it would be the perfect solution for you.
Thread can be closed. Thanks.
Btw: kill stealing WOULD become a problem. Since I am playing cRPG people always complained about teammates shooting into meele. Do your really think this wouldn't get worse if kills would be rewarded? Are you serious? And did you ever try to play as pikeman, and kill the enemy rider you just dismounted, who is lying on the ground? Before you can stab him another time with the pike 5 vultures came by, gangraped him and teamattacked you, leaving you with 10 HP.
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cRPG is a TEAM BASED game. It is not a stage where you are supposed to show off your 1337 skillz and your duelling power or your superior bow aim which needs literally years of training to learn to lead your target and calculate bullet drop ( :rolleyes: ), it's there to win with your team. The killing is not the goal, it's the way. Players are rewarded for achieving the goal (= winning the fucking round).
You state something that has never been varified. Also I doubt that teambased games are actually more fun. Just because the game lacks different game modes it is not a team based game;) Furthermore the game is not really teambased as the cooperation between players is quite limited, compared to other games.
What I like about cRPG is, that basically not the team with more/better skilled players wins, but the team with more brainpower and tactics. If you want a game where only your reflexes count, then piss off and play counterstrike, there you are rewarded for kills and can jerk off onto your k/d ratio. In cRPG you need brain, which is much more interesting and challenging than having the better reflexes or whatever. In fact having the better reflexes (e.g. for winning those super hard duels with chamberblocking and shit) is like being a body builder, who tries to raise more weight than others. But sooner or later you will reach the maximum performance your body is capable of, and there will always be someone who has a better body than you, with better reflexes or more strength.
I say you are wrong. The team with better skilled players will win. Also tactics is overestimated or just limited to simple basics. Not attacking one by one can not considered as tactic... As a result it is pure luck to gain xp. Actually you get xp over time, no matter how well you are. You might change your average multplier from 2,21 to 2,37 if you are good, but this is not very motivating.
You make the fatal mistake of assuming that a player with a good k/d ratio is a good player! That's wrong, he is only a good fighter.
This is right, but beeing a strong fighter CORELATES very strongly with beeing a good player. More then everything else.
For me you are just another forum guy who believes he is absolutly right, not accepting different ideas and oppinions and state things as truth which are actually opened for discussion.
Dont get me wrong. I dont say I want the former system back and I dont say it was better, but the current system is pure shit. That is what I think.
Also I have made several suggestion(in other threads) to improve the situation, so dont call me whiner
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Well, then just tell me two things:
1.: Do you think the teamattacks/teamkills won't increase with the implementation of kill rewards?
2.: Do you think a kill reward system would reward the right people, who deserve it?
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1.: Do you think the teamattacks/teamkills won't increase with the implementation of kill rewards?
Of course it will increase because people go mad ;)
But there are other possibilities to implement individual kill reward.
I would like the idea of XP/Kill but 100% for all people who are within a SMALL area. This would also motivate people to stick together. Sure there will be problems which needs to get fixed.
2.: Do you think a kill reward system would reward the right people, who deserve it?
Dont be so straight minded ;) I accept that you might be right with saying the former system is crap abd should not be changes back 1:1(!) but be open for new ideas.
Also you cannot say that the current system is fairer! Somebody who does kamikaze leeching is rewared MOST! Is this fair?
Instead of argueing against all alternative ideas of Xp system, please think about them. Some are crap but there is much potetial to imrpove the current system which is really not motivating.
People need to have influence on their character. That is what game fun is all about.
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My problem is the following thing:
Rewarding kills would focus the players on the wrong aspect of the game. There is a reason that there are two teams, instead of just having everyone vs. everyone. There is a reason chadz first made income only dependant of your distance to a kill, then totally independant of kills. And there is a reason why he added new sound commands.
This all points towards a team based game, and less depending on the skill of particular players. So you shouldn't reward something, which is completely independant of your teamplay.
As I said: cRPG isn't about kills, so kills shouldn't be rewarded. Someone in this topic said to remove the tab screen, but he probably meant this sarcastically. I mean this seriously. Remove it. Come on, you want to be rewarded for kills? How primitive ("Hugh! Me smashed ya skull, me da best!") and immature (= e-peen) is this? You should better want to be rewarded for being the smarter player. Because in the end, everything's about intelligence in life. :wink:
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As I said: cRPG isn't about kills, so kills shouldn't be rewarded. Someone in this topic said to remove the tab screen, but he probably meant this sarcastically. I mean this seriously. Remove it. Come on, you want to be rewarded for kills? How primitive ("Hugh! Me smashed ya skull, me da best!") and immature (= e-peen) is this? You should better want to be rewarded for being the smarter player. Because in the end, everything's about intelligence in life. :wink:
I like this idea, though it would make Strategus a little more interesting when picking mercs.
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Joker, you absolutly have a point.
I am not against teamplay and I think that teamplay should be rewarded, but the problem is, that the current system is too luck based for the individual player, thats all.
Kills really dont need to be rewarded, but skill has to be rewarded and this is absolutly missing.
Actually it is not easy to find a solution for this, but rewarding skill should be the primary target of the motivationystem of a game. Also reward teamplay too.(I never said anything else)
The influence an average player can take is just too small. It is just XP over time, the player or the kamikaze peasent who spends most time will be "PRO". This cannot be the point!
Without any individual reward system grinding from 1 to 30 has totally become useless in all aspects. You are just weaker and have even less influence. Why not start with lv 30 and need 8,7mio xp for 31? Would be better...(not seriously)
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Well, the first question is how to actually reward people.
I think the general idea is ofc just give them better stats (on items or chars) but rewarding skilled players that way is kind of circular and pointless imo (We also have to consider that it also makes bad players that already have a hard time struggle more).
For example if we said skill = score (not my opinion but lets use this example), so I get better items for a better score, all that serves is making it easier for me to get an even better score.
Now I can only talk about myself but if my score is over a certain point I don't care. 10 kills or 12 kills whatever. Even if someone does, if he is skilled he can get good scores, so he is already rewarded with what he wants (and if he doesn't get as high as he wants he has to improve his skill...).
Other options are pure show off stuff (achievements) or unlocking new "challenge" classes with very different gameplay. F.e. a good rider could unlock a chariot which is very hard to drive. Or you could unlock "stealth" mode - your flag is shown if you are on the other team as long as you only have a shirt and a sheated dagger - if you managed to get a 3:1 k:d with only short sword and shirt. Only throwing this out because I think it would be awesome.
The other big question is how to measure skill. Heck, we have tons of arguments about which class needs more skill, so how is there ever going to be a skill check that pleases all players?
Apart from that, like Joker says, people will focus on playing in a way that gives good rewards instead of going for other game goals (like winning the battle or siege).
For example, I guess we can all agree that this suggestion would be far more skillbased than just going after kills.
Give xp equal to damage dealt*armor. Also give 500xp for every block 3000 for every chamber and 1000000 for chambering a pikeman with your lance while jumping and killing an archer on the roof with the same attack.
But then people would suddenly start to leave enemies alive just that they can block a bit more often. Clans may even meet somewhere in the desert to set up some special lanes for trick attacks....
So I think the current system is better than what can be realistically implement, because you don't get a skillbased reward without locking down people (unfairly) into one skillset. Kamikaze leechers exist, well whatever, before the patch you had peasants hiding behind 3 shields and being bloody useless until the very moment they could afford the cataphract, while other people that actually fought were still 10k short. You can't have it perfect.
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Yes reintroduce this but what i think would be really bad is for it to be done not by the kills earned but by the damage done. Also while you're at it bring back some risk versus reward into the game why don't you.....
REINTRODUCE PENALTY FOR TK or better yet for team damage done
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2794.0.html
link about people talking about it
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I don't think it would be a good idea. Basically everything Joker86 said. You can play a teamplay shielder (a lot of shielders, if theres more people of their team around, try to keep you occupied and leave their teammates to kill you easier) so rewarding based on damage wouldn't work. Besides, even damage is not the only thing you can do. Blocking a tunnel/entrance to the village is "useful" even if you don't get to hit anyone, because you've made sure your team didn't get surrendered/the village wasn't breached (I'm assuming here attackers went elsewhere). And I could go on and on. Besides, it would made more difficult for new people to win against "skilled people" because they would be both skilled and rich (it happens already a bit with heirlooms).
Above all that, pubs would get the wrong idea and get the most damaging class regardless of survability/balance/etc.
There's people who like frags and looking at the tab you can see who gets most of the kills. I think that's reward enough, I would only accept a cosmetic one on top of that (I think in CRPG your weapon doesn't get bloody right? that would be good and funny).
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I think in CRPG your weapon doesn't get bloody right?
It does.
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Kills really dont need to be rewarded, but skill has to be rewarded and this is absolutly missing.
Actually it is not easy to find a solution for this, but rewarding skill should be the primary target of the motivationystem of a game. Also reward teamplay too.(I never said anything else)
In my eyes (and I thought quite some time about it) teamplay is the only skill that matters. You are probably talking of actual fighting skills like chamber blocking and shit. Yes, of course, it's good to have these, but they alone don't win rounds.
Still the focus of your perception is too "egoistic", I would say. You only look at your peronal fights, if you win them or not, instead of looking at the entire battle.
In Warband multiplayer, and probably any other multiplayer mod out there, your personal skill is probably the most important thing, and that's the reason why you get rewarded for kills directly. But in cRPG things are different. Battles are bigger, for example. So there is more sense in actually "role playing" the "class" you have chosen, which means that pikemen cover flanks and back, shielders protect the front and so on. In fact some kind of realism came in, as not the team with the better fighters, but the team with the better tactic will win. And because of this fact, the only thing that matters is your capability to play as a real member of a team.
Let's try it this way, by a simple example full of chlichés: Let's assume, skilled players are the big Germanic bonecrushers from the ancient world, while teamplayers are Roman Legionary Recruits, who just finished their training.
All the mods out there with their limited number of players are some kind of "scout skirmish"-games. Small numbers of enemies fighting against each other, and the big mean Teutons chop the poor recruits into half with ease. This is because it's not really a battle, rather a conclusion of a few individual duels.
But if 10.000 Teutons would meet 10.000 Romans on an open field, things would look differently. The Romans would form shield and spear walls, with massive blocks of infantry and some kind of plan how to flank the Teutons or something like that. While the Teutons don't have such sophisticated fighting manners, would more or less charge in a great bunch, relying on their fighting skills and hoping for the best. Most likely the Roman recruits would win here.
So in the first battle, which stands for all the other MP-mods out there, skill mattered, and so it should be rewarded. But in the second battle, which is more cRPG-like, skill didn't matter at all, teamplay did. So this should be rewarded.
(Please don't argue about the historical accuracy of this example, I just needed some kind of "terminator warrior" and some kind of "ant warrior", and those two examples came into my mind :lol: )
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There are enough bumbling idiots stumbling over each other to acquire a kill in the game without the prospect of a reward, we don't need to give the dolts another reason to go TK happy.
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That is actually why I prefer playing Seige maps so much, it forces and encourages teamplay in a more obvious fashion. You regularly see defenders not try and kill, but merely delay and distract when the opportunity arises. People quickly wise up that kills do not matter as much as winning or losing the flag, an thus the match. Alternatively you see horsemen not trying to score kills but be a massive tempting distraction for archers to shoot at so the attackers can breach easier, an example of sacrificing personal kill counts in order to let the team get ahead.
I personally am against rewards for kills.
If you are on the winning team, you are a good player, if you are on the losing team, you are not. Over-generalized, but my point should still be there.
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Yesterday I retired the first time to Gen 2. I really liked the mod and playing on lv 30, but now the game becames lame..
I started an archer and I am Lv 20 now, but there is not much I can do to support my team with low attributes. Sometimes I have much success, but grinding to even Lv 30 is boring(and there is nothing I can do to accellerate this)
I have put much hope into a RPG Warband mod, but this one is starting to turn me off. Usually I do not quit games fast, but now I start to think about it.
There is just no mechanism which improves my motivation. Also I have minor influence with a low level. Furthermore there are a bunch of really stupid nerved gamemechanics in here.
Since some months I played native MP again and I have to say that native has SEVERAL advantages over CRPG. Things which are not nessessery to be worse then native...
Call me a whiner if you want. I dont care about childtalk ;)
Conclusion: My whining results from the xp system.
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Since some months I played native MP again and I have to say that native has SEVERAL advantages over CRPG.
like leveling your char? or choose freely your equipment?
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like leveling your char? or choose freely your equipment?
I think he is referencing the ability to change a world.
cRPG is I think mainly built around Strategus, and without it, there is less of an impact.
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Come on, every week someone starts such a kill reward thread. I say it again: NO NO NO!
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i don't thin k this should be implented, as it would make people go kill-hunting, leading to their teams' loss.
You could implent it on duel server though
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The shit I am doing usually (next to writing into teamchat while I am STILL ALIVE, to coordinate the team a bit and suggest some tactics or pointing to a mistake the other team makes or shit. Yes, really, it's not "everyone for himself" on the field :shock: ) often makes my team win. Which I think makes me a better player than most others. Making kills doesn't change anything. I saw Finn being in the losing team for 10 rounds in a row before the patch. Instead of lolstomping everything he could have written some short commands into teamchat, I bet the team would have followed them (mostly). Of course this would have costed time he could have used for killing people, so his stats would look worse. But he would have won more rounds, I bet.
If chadz would follow your suggestions, Finn would be rewarded for first behaviour (egoistic killing spree, losing the round), and punished for latter (setting up tactics, playing as a team). I think it should be the other way round. And that's the case, at the moment. I hope this will never change, and I am confident it won't.
Heheh, funny you take me as the example of a "Ugh, me smash!"-warrior type who gets a large k/d-ratio, but loses matches and a polar opposite to "the playing as a team"-player :D When it was tactics and playing with the team what made me win, get kills and bumb over enemies so our melee could get easy kills.
As for seeing me lose 10 rounds in a row ? Hmm... It's possible. My memory is really rusty, but I do know that 10 round losing streaks weren't that common. :)
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In all honesty, both systems of XP were flawed.
Current System:
~ No Incentive to actually fight
~ Promotes Delaying - especially at x5
Old System:
~ Promoted Kill Stealing
~ No XP for those away from the battle but still contributing.
My Suggestion:
Combine the two.
~ Keep the XP Per Minute + Multiplier for Winning Rounds
~ Add a small XP bonus for being near the fights like the old system. Not necessarily getting the kill.
~ (Bonus XP not modified by multiplier) - Maybe 25 or 50 xp per kill.
--I think that people would want to fight if they know that being near the battles will give more XP rather than just sitting in the back. The players doing the killing are getting instantly rewarded. Not to mention it would make the slow grind go a little faster. Any Gen 1 person knows this grind sucks at 1000xp/min.