cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 08:00:03 pm

Title: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 08:00:03 pm
I'm but a thrower (HT to be honest, not the best one either), I've however always considered my judgement somewhat fair, I've felt like posting this for a while but due to being a HT and thinking HT desperately needs some kind of buff I was to ashamed to start such a thread until these (
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:12:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
) were put out there by cmp. IMO there are several balance issues with ranged atm I believe for bows long bow needs a really small accuracy or damage buff for it to be better than the rus bow at something, but besides from that I see no real issues in balance between bows. I find the xbow balance pretty good aswell (but buff hunting reload speed a bit IMO). throwing balance I can testify is great, lots of variety for different playstyles, builds, etc. But while the in-class balance seems fine the balance vs everything else is quite flawed IMO.
Bows: I mostly find bows being really unfair to infantry, not due to being able to hit and severely damage them, but due to being able to eternally run away, I think if bows got the following tweeks it'd be a lot nicer: Movement penalty to aiming nearly 100% removed, a large speed nerf (I assume this would be possible by making bows weight huge amounts) so that all balanced none-100%black-armor builds can eventually catch up with archers, ofcourse archers could drop their bows in order to flee which I guess there is nothing to do about. As it is now archers outrun nearly everything (aware archers can deal with cav piss easy (even me who sucks with my archer build can deal with cav if I am properly aware) and as only the naked 3/30 builds can catch our current archers there is not much reason to go HA, I believe if ranged wants to outrun melee they'll need to get a horse and the damage/accuracy nerfs that comes with one.
I know not much about xbows and am therefor not sure exactly how things are for them so TBH I don't have much input here.
I consider throwing properly balanced in all ways I can think of, both against melee and other ranged.
My last part in this post is about HTs, who I (after using around twelve jarrids to down a heavy horse (yes, I actually scavange all my pre-thrown weapons in order to have more ammo once I'm not threatened) I believe throwing needs a buff on horseback, we got shitty ammo (I believe max you can get with throwing knifes is around one stack of normal arrows but I haven't used them for ages and ain't sure), shitty accuracy, etc, I believe throwing was meant to be a low accuracy low ammo scavenger class, but I do not believe it should take an entire stack to kill a heavy horse... so I'd suggest a small damage buff or for speed bonus to exist a tiny bit for HT (I still feel like shit for suggesting a buff to my own playstyle. :( ) That's essentially my post.
Hope I can get some real opinions on balance for once instead of "I should kill everyone, no one should kill me."... etc.
EDIT: NEW RULE TO THIS THREAD, EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN POSTED SO FAR DOES NOT GO UNDER THE RULE, EVERYTHING ELSE WILL, INSTEAD OF TYPING HORSE YOU MUST TYPE HORSIE, FURTHER ODD RULES WILL BE ADDED WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT, BEING A THREAD OP IS LIKE BEING GODz.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:24:15 pm
There are things I agree and disagree with in your post, but completely aside from that -

I don't think those numbers that cmp pulled should be used as any indication for balance, because we don't have the #s of players who are doing this.  For example yes horse throwers do little damage, but they are also very rare.

Similarly 2H and poles in general do a bunch of damage, but I think there are a lot more players who go those classes so obviously then the total server damage % for those will be higher.

Until there is some more clarification around those numbers using that as an indication something needs to be buffed/nerfed is only seeing part of the picture.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 08:32:00 pm
Quote from: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:24:15 pm
There are things I agree and disagree with in your post, but completely aside from that -

I don't think those numbers that cmp pulled should be used as any indication for balance, because we don't have the #s of players who are doing this.  For example yes horse throwers do little damage, but they are also very rare.

Similarly 2H and poles in general do a bunch of damage, but I think there are a lot more players who go those classes so obviously then the total server damage % for those will be higher.

Until there is some more clarification around those numbers using that as an indication something needs to be buffed/nerfed is only seeing part of the picture.
Ofcourse, but just saying the 0.08% gave me the courage to post my thoughts on balance.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 08:59:28 pm
What if the .08% of the damage due to throwers is from .01% of the population? But anyway, buff throwing lances.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Slamz on March 05, 2012, 09:37:08 pm
The real issue is people hate dying to thrown weapons.  Actually they hate dying to ranged in general but I think throwing bugs them even more.

So most people, I think, would just as soon throwing remain underpowered for all time.  That makes them happy and they sleep soundly at night content in the knowledge that throwing is underpowered and always will be.  It's not a question of balance -- it's a question of clear intent to make sure it's NOT balanced and never becomes so.


Really I would like to see one of two things happen to throwing:
a) Make it more dangerous.  People should not run around with a +3 heavy throwing axe in their brain.  It's rude.  They should fall down and die like any considerate person would.

or

b) Make it easier to do.  I give up a tremendous amount of wpf, not to mention skill points, in order to do basically what every crossbowman can do for free, which is, once in a while, kill someone with a ranged attack.  I'd like to see the wpf formulas, at least, adjusted so that I don't need 97 wpf in throwing just to pick up and use heavy throwing axes while wearing mid-range armor (light kuyak, mail gauntlets, nordic warlord helm).  I tried to go PT 6 one time and it just wasn't worth it.  PS 6 is basically the minimum for melee but PT 6 for throwing is really too costly for what it gets you, especially considering the armor restrictions and wpf requirements to be able to pick your ammo back up!


Basically, we shouldn't have to cripple ourselves to use throwing.

Or if we do, then throwing should be a lot more effective.  I mainly stick with it because it's a pretty reliable defense against cavalry attacks.  It's not even so much that it's deadly against horses but rather, cavalry just doesn't like getting hit at all and I will almost always hit them if they come anywhere near me, so lots of them steer away when they see I have a throwing axe.

Throwing as an anti-infantry weapon is basically a gimmick build, though.  It's just not reliable enough and there are too many downsides.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Rohypnol settled into horse crossbowman after brief stints as thrower and horse thrower.  Crossbows (especially mounted) are vastly superior to throwing -- more ammo, reliable one-shot kills to the head, and it doesn't require any wpf, which means you also don't need any points in WM.

In all honesty, the only reason I'm a hybrid thrower and not a crossbowman is because my clan restricts crossbows (not Viking enough).

There is a certain amount of endless hilarity in killing someone with a throwing axe.  I think it's the funniest thing in the game and it never gets old, especially when it hits them in the head, but it's still really just a gimmick, and my punishment for the occasional axe hit is the sacrifice of 4 skill points into PT and whole lot of wpf points that could have gone into making my 2H better instead.  I do like the versatility but it's no great coincidence that all of the "great killers" of cRPG tend to be pure 2H or pure polearm with no throwing what-so-ever, despite its apparent uses.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 09:49:53 pm
I hate dying to crossbows more than to throwers. Less love for xbows, more for throwers. (xbows require far less skill points invested to be effective)
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 10:15:32 pm
Quote from: Slamz on March 05, 2012, 09:37:08 pm
There is a certain amount of endless hilarity in killing someone with a throwing axe.  I think it's the funniest thing in the game and it never gets old, especially when it hits them in the head, but it's still really just a gimmick, and my punishment for the occasional axe hit is the sacrifice of 4 skill points into PT and whole lot of wpf points that could have gone into making my 2H better instead.  I do like the versatility but it's no great coincidence that all of the "great killers" of cRPG tend to be pure 2H or pure polearm with no throwing what-so-ever, despite its apparent uses.
I use throwing lances as my melee weapon, low damage and length isn't great but everything else is, I've learned tactics to trick most melee into not blocking my melee, etc. It's throwing damage is huge but still, outside EU_3 (which players who doesn't wanna fight a thrower can say "no throwing" before accepting my request and if I agree then throwing IS banable there) there isn't enough slots for that weapon to be useful.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 06, 2012, 12:10:55 am
I myself have a HT alt and have 8PT, i can sometimes onehit archers with my throwing lance but then with javelins and throwing axes it takes multiple hits(3+) even on archers which i think it ridiculous since archers should be very squishy. I agree that HT's should get a buff, and i read somewhere that you get a damage penalty when mounted and maybe this could be decreased?
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 06, 2012, 01:03:31 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on March 06, 2012, 12:10:55 am
I myself have a HT alt and have 8PT, i can sometimes onehit archers with my throwing lance but then with javelins and throwing axes it takes multiple hits(3+) even on archers which i think it ridiculous since archers should be very squishy. I agree that HT's should get a buff, and i read somewhere that you get a damage penalty when mounted and maybe this could be decreased?
As I do believe the nature of throwing is fast, not accurate, not long range, but damaging hits, so I approve. Infact whenever I take out HA horses I end up bumping and stabbing them with my jarrids to death. It takes a few throws to kill them AND it's hard as fuck to hit an archer in such a position (I use steppe horse, one of the best-turning horses ingame).
I however find it sorta sad that this thread has turned into a "BUFF THROWING" thread. :( Main reason I made it was that I think it's unfair for none-HA to be able to outrun the average melee.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: duurrr on March 06, 2012, 02:43:54 am
range will always be retarded because any derpies can kill the best player with it

shit will never be balanced ever, sorry
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Torost on March 06, 2012, 07:00:50 am
Quote from: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:24:15 pm
There are things I agree and disagree with in your post, but completely aside from that -

I don't think those numbers that cmp pulled should be used as any indication for balance, because we don't have the #s of players who are doing this.  For example yes horse throwers do little damage, but they are also very rare.

Similarly 2H and poles in general do a bunch of damage, but I think there are a lot more players who go those classes so obviously then the total server damage % for those will be higher.

Until there is some more clarification around those numbers using that as an indication something needs to be buffed/nerfed is only seeing part of the picture.

Even if you have the numbers, there is a difference in levels. It is hard to find meaningfull data. Crossbows can be usefull as peasantweapons, before you got any PS,PD,PT. Katana is a low req. weapon.. meaning it will get used more while leveling.
Mounted archers and throwers will always be neglible, since it is only viable at the top end of a gen... comparing apples with apples is really hard in crpg :)
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Overdriven on March 06, 2012, 02:05:19 pm
I know someone who  would agree with you whole heartedly on the HT *cough* Lorenzo *cough*.

I'd be for giving HT a buff. The issue is that you can't solely buff HT. It'll effect both footmen and horsemen. If you changed anything to do with HA skill then it would change HA and HC as well. It's complicated and the reason why archery changes are hard to balance when taking into consideration HA. A general throwing damage buff might be nice though. It isn't a very strong class at the moment.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zandieer on March 06, 2012, 02:53:59 pm
I agree with you. HT is the funniest class to play as :lol:


Edit: stupid iPad
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Rumblood on March 07, 2012, 11:30:30 pm
As pointed out by MrShine, without the backing statistics those numbers don't mean much by themselves.

You have some interesting ideas, but you can throw this one back into the refuse heap.

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 08:00:03 pm
Bows: I mostly find bows being really unfair to infantry, not due to being able to hit and severely damage them, but due to being able to eternally run away,

1: Get more athletics
2: Get a Horse
3: An archer CAN NOT run away forever. Everytime we shoot it slows us down and infantry gains.
4: And oh yes, get a shield.

I realize that a 30/3 will never catch any archer ever, but that's their own problem, not the game balance.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 07, 2012, 11:41:45 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on March 07, 2012, 11:30:30 pm
As pointed out by MrShine, without the backing statistics those numbers don't mean much by themselves.

You have some interesting ideas, but you can throw this one back into the refuse heap.

1: Get more athletics
2: Get a Horse
3: An archer CAN NOT run away forever. Everytime we shoot it slows us down and infantry gains.
4: And oh yes, get a shield.

I realize that a 30/3 will never catch any archer ever, but that's their own problem, not the game balance.
1. Get more athletics: I'd pretty much have to wear no armor (last build, 4ath sure didn't stand a chance at catching archers (melee alt) and use a near-pure agi build.
2. Already said every archer with the 'least bit of awareness can take out cav (heck even me (I suck as an archer) take 'em out piss easy when I am aware (Have not played on this alt much, most of it was in-aware aswell, just sayin' whenever I payed the 'least attention cav can't do shit).
3. Just run some more and you get long enough away to shoot again, you'd only get catched if you shot too often. (also the same with speed-xbows but their reloading takes way longer and forces them to stand still so they can shoot WAY less.
4. Same response archers who didn't give two shits about balance gave to anti-ladder threads (not claiming you're pro roofcamping, but if you are I do not believe it's worth discussing balance with you).
5. Main reason I suggested this was to remove a lot of frustration from the game, and to slightly buff HA  (as I've said with cav not being a big issue, with it being easier to dodge arrows from foot, with HAs getting damage and accuracy penalties (ain't exactly sure how they work tbh), I also suggested buffing archers in quite a few ways which include no super giant reticule while moving, and (ain't sure if I remembered to post it) making archery take little enough WPF for you to be able to use a melee weapon decently, and wear somewhat ok armor. Finally I do believe if you want to be unreachable get a horsie, not drop all your armor and become an archer.
BTW: As I pointed out to mistershine I was simply stating that those numbers game me the confidence needed to post this thread, and my sig...
...it's just for the lolz.
Zandieer I dig your new sig badly, if I where half as rich as my "0,08%" sig makes me seem I'd give you another 50k.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 08, 2012, 12:02:23 am
Quote from: Rumblood on March 07, 2012, 11:30:30 pm

1: Get more athletics
2: Get a Horse
3: An archer CAN NOT run away forever. Everytime we shoot it slows us down and infantry gains.
4: And oh yes, get a shield.


1:ath is for acceleration (and therefor zigzaging), its the weight of your equipment that prevails. A med armored guy with 6 ath will reachs his maximum run speed faster then the 2ath archer will reachs his. BUT the archer wearing lighter equipment then the med armored guy will in the end run faster then medarmoredguy
2 : stop playing archery....
3 : when i zigzag to avoid arrows i lose speed....AAAAH but i didnt see point 4! get a shield! Of course! that changes everything...not. When you raise your shield you run slower...
(and lets not talk about archers that spin their fire when a shielder tries to bump them  :rolleyes: )
4 : derp archer lobby argument
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Cup1d on March 08, 2012, 12:25:30 am
became a VIP and hire army of sexy shielders.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on March 08, 2012, 12:50:31 am
i suck vs chase hardly, nerf him pls i want kill every 1  :o
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 08, 2012, 01:00:04 am
Quote from: Sir_Agor on March 08, 2012, 12:50:31 am
i suck vs chase hardly, nerf him pls i want kill every 1  :o

Finally something reasonable, +1
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 08, 2012, 03:19:58 pm
Quote from: Sir_Agor on March 08, 2012, 12:50:31 am
i suck vs chase hardly, nerf him pls i want kill every 1  :o
The difference between that and my argument is that ten archers could kill Chase without taking a hit, and ten physcho-pro infs could never hurt an archer who kept running.
BTW: I suck vs Blabkbow hardly, he never misses even when I do my best at dodging he nearly always hit me, and I approve of that, however, he shouldn't be able to just run forever and keep on shooting forever.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Molly on March 08, 2012, 03:42:02 pm
Forget about any improvement on Throwing... Meow already told me once that there are no plans whatsoever to buff or improve it in any way. Guess we have to deal with it...
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 08, 2012, 03:44:06 pm
A few tips/solutions:
Get a shield and make the archers run out into the open and get killed by cav.
Avoid the archer instead of trying to kill him, let teammate archers shoot him to death. Instead focus on killing all infantry and then finish the archers last.
Try sneaking behind him, but this wont work most of the times since they are usually aware.  :?
Get a decent number of athl, and a shield, run towards the archer and raise shield when needed but dont hold it up all the time since it slows you down alot. Keep doing this and you will eventually reach the archer or if you are slower there isn't much point in doing this unless you get a teammate to help or just want to keep the archer from shooting teammates which is pretty good too..

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 08, 2012, 05:02:15 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on March 08, 2012, 03:44:06 pm
A few tips/solutions:
Get a shield and make the archers run out into the open and get killed by cav.
Avoid the archer instead of trying to kill him, let teammate archers shoot him to death. Instead focus on killing all infantry and then finish the archers last.
Try sneaking behind him, but this wont work most of the times since they are usually aware.  :?
Get a decent number of athl, and a shield, run towards the archer and raise shield when needed but dont hold it up all the time since it slows you down alot. Keep doing this and you will eventually reach the archer or if you are slower there isn't much point in doing this unless you get a teammate to help or just want to keep the archer from shooting teammates which is pretty good too..

(click to show/hide)
I don't want them being easy as fuck to kill, I just don't want them being uncatchable (I want them having an easier time getting somewhat decent melee wpf, want them to have increased accuracy, arrow speed, walking while shooting, etc, BUT I DO BELIEVE RUNNING FROM ALL THREATS EXCEPT THEIR OWN BUILD SHOULD BE RESERVED TO HAs, also, I already said any aware archer with some bellow-average skills got no issues with cav, not even me.
As I've said I'm a HT, also occasional just T, or T/P, I got an archer alt I play with occasionally, so I only got to go wild-goose-chasin' archers if I want to kill them 10-30% of the time.
Benkai that sucks :( hope there is still hope for my suggestion about archery though, I really think HAs are just being HAs because being a HA is cool, archers pretty much outdo them in every way currently.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Rumblood on March 08, 2012, 05:15:43 pm
Archers get caught on every single map. You constantly repeating that they can't be caught does not make it true. It may be true that YOUR build can't catch an archer, but so what? My build gets 1-shotted by anybody with more than 3 PS. Should I be complaining to nerf PS over 3 or buff archer hit points so that I don't die in 1 hit? No, I should get some armor, some STR, some IF, and STFU about it.

and I forgot the 'ol #5 - get a 1 wpf Xbow

You've got plenty of options to deal with the situation. You choose your build, learn to live with its limitations against other specific builds.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 08, 2012, 05:32:30 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on March 08, 2012, 05:15:43 pm
Archers get caught on every single map. You constantly repeating that they can't be caught does not make it true. It may be true that YOUR build can't catch an archer, but so what? My build gets 1-shotted by anybody with more than 3 PS. Should I be complaining to nerf PS over 3 or buff archer hit points so that I don't die in 1 hit? No, I should get some armor, some STR, some IF, and STFU about it.

and I forgot the 'ol #5 - get a 1 wpf Xbow

You've got plenty of options to deal with the situation. You choose your build, learn to live with its limitations against other specific builds.
Archers get caught in the end of the round once every single remaining other player on the enemies team is focusing on them (truth is quite a few rounds end with flags/draw due to retard runner never being cought by the eight players left), or they're stupid (turn around to shot on the archer shooting at them instead of fleeing fx) or they're not paying any attention, or they got ten cav lances charging at them and first see it to late to kill/dodge everyone of them., ofcourse 7+ ath players can catch some archers, if they wear no armor that is... And yeah, you shouldn't get onehit, you should be given the ability to fight some-what ok (not as good as a real melee guy,  but still) in melee.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 12, 2012, 05:57:32 pm
Horse-thrower bump...
...Archer running is bullshiet!!!
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: _Tak_ on March 12, 2012, 06:02:11 pm
Throwing is pretty dangerous now, duno if it got buff again, but its very very deadly. Every time i see a thrower i have to ride away. 1 Jarid can took 70% of my hp and it's very very dangerous no joke. To me thrower are more dangerous than archers
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 12, 2012, 06:06:23 pm
Quote from: AlexTheDragon on March 12, 2012, 06:02:11 pm
Throwing is pretty dangerous now, duno if it got buff again, but its very very deadly. Every time i see a thrower i have to ride away. 1 Jarid can took 70% of my hp and it's very very dangerous no joke. To me thrower are more dangerous than archers
Reason a jarid takes that much is because you give them an insane speed bonus/they where ground throwers who got a good hit, HTs (who I'm suggesting a buff for) nearly never get good speed bonus', my main chance for getting kills as HT is trying to get lancers to make a frontal charge on me, then I chicken out after having thrown, as I said in OP when I'm chasing cav it takes 10+ jarids for the heavier horsies, I can max carry 12 jarids, that is with no melee sidearm/throwing lance, also, at least throwers are far easilier catchable than archers.
Title: Re: Ranged Balance
Post by: MrShine on March 12, 2012, 11:38:23 pm
The fastest of archers will still be caught by the slowest of cavalry.