cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Freland on March 03, 2011, 09:18:58 pm

Title: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Freland on March 03, 2011, 09:18:58 pm
One of the most frustrating things for me in CRPG or any other round based "shooter" is being one shotted (think awp in CS or think throwing lance in CRPG). If it's a headshot i think it's fine. So what are the reasons for the overall increase of damage in crpg?

So what are the possibilities to increase survivability.

So every method of fixing the damage amount which came to my mind has some flaws. Any other possibilities?

Please keep this thread civil. If you think throwers, archers, 2h spammers or turtles are overpowered - well that's fine. But please keep those train of thoughts for the respective threads.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Vicious666 on March 03, 2011, 09:38:22 pm
i like the option 1 and  3

and look my gen
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: jspook on March 03, 2011, 09:38:57 pm
The last time i checked when you hit a man with pretty much any of these weapons in his torso, it really doesnt matter how many hitpoints you have when your guts are pooling around your ankles.
I dont think we need any more buffs to the armor or hitpoints.
the *modest* amount of realism in this game is what makes it fun.  No, its not totally realistic. but we also dont need huge health bars, or healing, or indestructible tin cans walking around.
Armor already has a bonus vs cut dmg, and a neg vs pierce.  this is balanced.

the smart person SHOULD heirloom his weapon first, as he realizes that the armor is made of of 4 distinct pieces.  You do what has the highest benifit first, then deal with the rest.  that is why you have choices.  you cant complain because the smart choices are being made more often than the hard ones.

Quote
Double weapon prices, and half armor prices: This would probably help but perhaps we would just have as much armor variety as we had before the patch
This is pretty false because there wasnt much armor diversity at all before the patch.  Almost EVERYONE was walking around with black or milinese plate.  Now you see an almost endless diversity on the field.  everything ranging from lamelar to the complete khergit sets.  I see way more themed warriors then there were before.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Punisher on March 03, 2011, 09:51:49 pm
It's fine the way it is now, you mostly die in 2-3 hits max so you need to be a lot more aware of your surroundings and concentrate on blocking/dodging hits rather than just spam spam spam. This lead to an increase of the average skill level in cRPG, it's a lot harder now to get big scores than it was pre-patch.

Making armor cheap would only bring back the situation before the patch, overall gameplay it's a lot better now with most people in medium armor than it was with everybody in heavy-plate pre-patch, it's just more fun and challenging.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Freland on March 03, 2011, 09:52:05 pm
Quote from: jspook on March 03, 2011, 09:38:57 pm
This is pretty false because there wasnt much armor diversity at all before the patch.  Almost EVERYONE was walking around with black or milinese plate.  Now you see an almost endless diversity on the field.  everything ranging from lamelar to the complete khergit sets.  I see way more themed warriors then there were before.
Well perhaps I did not express myself clearly (english is not my first language) but that's exactly what I meant (less armor variety before the patch). I tried to work out flaws for every proposal I made.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 03, 2011, 09:53:52 pm
i dont think it should take 5 hits with a sword to kill a guy, that would make 1 vs 3 situations impossible, and we would have too long battles
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: chief on March 03, 2011, 09:55:26 pm
They made it so everyone uses crappier armor, but everyone is still dealing pretty much the same damage. I rarely survive more than 2 hits from anyone who's not a peasant....then again, I did't before the patch either. (I never have used heavy armor)
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: jspook on March 03, 2011, 09:56:22 pm
Quote from: Freland on March 03, 2011, 09:52:05 pm
Well perhaps I did not express myself clearly (english is not my first language) but that's exactly what I meant (less armor variety before the patch). I tried to work out flaws for every proposal I made.
my bad then.  not trying to flame ya!  I get what you were trying say after I read it with that in mind.  I do think it is ok the way it is now, however.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on March 03, 2011, 10:01:49 pm
No, I think damage is fine. Death is a choice, that's my motto. Along with Death is imperfection. And there is no luck, only unintentional skill.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Vicious666 on March 03, 2011, 10:23:30 pm
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on March 03, 2011, 10:01:49 pm
No, I think damage is fine. Death is a choice, that's my motto. Along with Death is imperfection. And there is no luck, only unintentional skill.

i prefer to  think that your death is my choice
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Freland on March 03, 2011, 10:53:59 pm
Quote from: jspook on March 03, 2011, 09:56:22 pm
my bad then.  not trying to flame ya!  I get what you were trying say after I read it with that in mind.  I do think it is ok the way it is now, however.

No harm done. Most of the community seems to share your opinion - I'm fine with that. Game is a lot of fun most of the time  :)
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: bruce on March 04, 2011, 12:28:17 am
If you wanted to fix it, making armour more effective would be the way. As in the RCM-type mods, with mail having 60-ish armour rating and plate going up to 120ish, and helms somewhere in that region as well. It'd make armour mean something, especially if pierce got removed from the majority of things, and replaced by (possibly a larger amount of) cutting damage. Etc.

But I sort of like it as it is now, too.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: UrLukur on March 04, 2011, 01:41:11 am
Buff REDUCTION, nerf SOAK. Make armors less all-or-nothing, more like reliable-defense.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Banok on March 04, 2011, 03:15:28 am
buff iron flesh to +3 instead of +2

make armour less exponential

example currently it kind of works roughly like this:

0 armour 1 hit to die
30 armour 1 hit to die
60 armour 3 hits to die
70 armour 5 hits to die

for example the difference between 60 and 70 armour is massive, too big. make it scale less so that lower armour values do more. so it would be more like this

0 armour 1 shot
30 armour 3 shots
60 armour4 shots
70 armour 4 shots

Quote from: UrLukur on March 04, 2011, 01:41:11 am
Buff REDUCTION, nerf SOAK. Make armors less all-or-nothing, more like reliable-defense.

This too. bouncing is just not a fun gameplay mechanic.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: ThePoopy on March 04, 2011, 04:33:14 am
but getting bounced by stuffs that dmg 1% is?
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Warcat on March 04, 2011, 04:48:18 am
I've always though there was not enough damage in cRPG. Naked people running around with arrows in them, people taking swords to the mouth and still fighting. Red people everywhere.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Tigerclaw on March 04, 2011, 07:09:48 am
I think the damage is pretty good, although as Warcat pointed out, if anything, it could stand to be a bit higher.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: EponiCo on March 04, 2011, 07:29:17 am
Can it get higher than 1 or 2 shotted?
I'd say high damage builds currently deal too much damage to heavy armor (same amount of hits or at best 1 more), while low damage does too little (nothing at all, or maybe 3hp).
So +1 to change of soak and reduction values if that doesn't break the game somehow.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 04, 2011, 01:40:46 pm
imo this game is too slow and most peoples suggestions is "make it slower & do less damage"
Please to god don't nerf damage or speed again.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Gurnisson on March 04, 2011, 02:44:00 pm
Don't buff starting hit points, buff ironflesh instead.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 02:52:00 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 04, 2011, 02:44:00 pm
Don't buff starting hit points, buff ironflesh instead.

i agree that IF needs buff, but then we'd see builds with 80 hp.
Instead is should give maybe 4 hp for the 2 first if points, 3 for the next 2, 2 for the next 2 and then 1 hp per if point for the rest
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 02:55:38 pm
Quote from: Torp on March 04, 2011, 02:52:00 pm
i agree that IF needs buff, but then we'd see builds with 80 hp.
Instead is should give maybe 4 hp for the 2 first if points, 3 for the next 2, 2 for the next 2 and then 1 hp per if point for the rest

This way everyone will get 4 IF, it would be better to just give 3HP/IF instead of 2.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Spawny on March 04, 2011, 03:04:16 pm
Quote from: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 02:55:38 pm
This way everyone will get 4 IF, it would be better to just give 3HP/IF instead of 2.

+1 It has been suggested multiple times and it should be implemented imo.
IF is currently used as something to put points in you can't use somewhere else.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:01:32 pm
Not sure if damage is in need of a nerf/buff, I'm fine with the current balance.

What I would like to see more of is speed. The current game is way too slow, ALOT slower then native and it is seriously hurting my skills. And that's why you don't see many Native veterans playing cRPG because of the "noobification", if you play cRPG for a few weeks and then jump on a Native duel server you'll see your reflexes and overall skill diminished.

Keep current damage and buff weapon speed(get back the wfp curve pre-patch)!
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: La Makina on March 04, 2011, 05:34:00 pm
I have just have one heirloomed item (just one, what a noob): my lamellar armor. It is now "thick" (+2) and offers thus a 50 body armor protection. Wearing it, I can be killed in a single hit 50% of the time (no clue if this is due to triple heirloomed weps).

As a result I tend to not use my thick lamellar armor and go with various light armors or even with a 3gp linen tunic. I can only make a difference when I am hit by arrows or by teammates (quite frequent), otherwise my lifespan is actually the same and I even get rid of the armor weight penalties.

So, IMOE, armors are not protective enough.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Bobthehero on March 04, 2011, 05:36:08 pm
You gotta remember that sometimes you get hit in the face rather than in the body, that means pierce damage do x3 damage and cut x2.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Gorath on March 04, 2011, 05:46:41 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:01:32 pm
ALOT slower then native and it is seriously hurting my skills.

Only if you compare it to servers running on fastest, and even then because of the ability to build our own toons we are fully capable of reaching equivalent speed as fastest setting.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
Quote from: Gorath on March 04, 2011, 05:46:41 pm
Only if you compare it to servers running on fastest, and even then because of the ability to build our own toons we are fully capable of reaching equivalent speed as fastest setting.

Sorry man, but that's not true. :P

Native, even on medium setting (Ndition duel server*), it's faster then cRPG. Only weapons that can reach the speed that I can think of is if you agi-whore and use a Katana, Hafted Blade or Side Sword.


* Ndition Duel server forces the user to wear cloth only, though, and has been taken into account.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Bobthehero on March 04, 2011, 06:01:02 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
* Ndition Duel server forces the user to wear cloth only, though, and has been taken into account.

??? What does that have to do with anything
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Grey on March 04, 2011, 06:04:31 pm
Quote from: Vicious666 on March 03, 2011, 10:23:30 pm
i prefer to  think that your death is my choice

unfortunately this tends to be so.

Quote from: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
Sorry man, but that's not true. :P

Native, even on medium setting (Ndition duel server*), it's faster then cRPG. Only weapons that can reach the speed that I can think of is if you agi-whore and use a Katana, Hafted Blade or Side Sword.


* Ndition Duel server forces the user to wear cloth only, though, and has been taken into account.

Native is completely different to crpg, and Nditions dueling totally different to playing native battles, clanwars or sieges.

To me it seems native preset troops types have a very large WPF setting, and less POWER abilities.....PS PT PD....But also think of the levelling up element in crpg, if armour was tougher, or the fighting much faster, peasants would be even less able to defend themselves.

I for one would not mind armour being buffed, but armour prices would have to go up, I wear leathers/cloth by choice on most chars, but on my heavy inf, ive never considered "economy" rounds so I can afford armour.....just wear it all the time........gets me loads of free kills from bounces etc....
 Also, the larger bows would need their damage returning to pierce, since their purpose is tankhunting, they should be able to do it better than anything else except lancers....

Speed buff to the game would also be good to see for myself, but I dont think it would help the game much, since already the "Speed Racer" chars stand out from the heavy hitters, any further speed buffs and the polearm animations will not be able to run as fast as the spammers......
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Gurnisson on March 04, 2011, 06:05:34 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
Sorry man, but that's not true. :P

Only weapons that can reach the speed that I can think of is if you agi-whore and use a Katana

Now that's a lot faster than what you meet in native.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: EponiCo on March 04, 2011, 06:21:49 pm
From native files, native chars have 14 agi and 110 1h, 100 2h, 140 polearm wpf.
Weapon stats for many weapons are the same or even lower than crpg. If there's not anything big happening behind the curtains a balanced crpg char should be faster.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Gorath on March 04, 2011, 06:26:51 pm
Quote from: EponiCo on March 04, 2011, 06:21:49 pm
From native files, native chars have 14 agi and 110 1h, 100 2h, 140 polearm wpf.
Weapon stats for many weapons are the same or even lower than crpg. If there's not anything big happening behind the curtains a balanced crpg char should be faster.

^
This.  The character builds in native are far less agi and wpf than your average balanced build character in c-RPG.  One of the biggest complaints back in the day (lol@"in the day" being less than a year ago) from native players was how fast c-rpg is.  Your typical 15 agi, 130-150 wpf character here is faster than what you get in native, and with faster weapons as well.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: IG_Saint on March 04, 2011, 07:25:30 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
Sorry man, but that's not true. :P

Native, even on medium setting (Ndition duel server*), it's faster then cRPG. Only weapons that can reach the speed that I can think of is if you agi-whore and use a Katana, Hafted Blade or Side Sword.


* Ndition Duel server forces the user to wear cloth only, though, and has been taken into account.

There's something wonky about nditions though, just try playing on the swadian duel server compared to nditions. Nditions feels too fast for native medium speed.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2011, 07:29:47 pm
Dunno, in my lightish armor and with my balanced german greatsword @ 18 agi, 157 wpf it felt about the same as nditions with a greatsword.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: UrLukur on March 04, 2011, 08:12:44 pm
Quote from: IG_Saint on March 04, 2011, 07:25:30 pm
There's something wonky about nditions though, just try playing on the swadian duel server compared to nditions. Nditions feels too fast for native medium speed.

Stat wise, Nditions may seems fast for Phyrex, as he use greatsword in both cases. In native it have 96 speed 120 reach coupled wih 135/140 wpf and due to everyone and their mothers wearing lowest tier cloth, turning into swing is abudant on Nditions (that increase feel of speed). Polearm users also have 130/140 wpf coupled with weapons with high speed/damage/reach, and even 1h without shield can do something with no armor around and high speed. All characters have ath 6 and nearly 0 weight, and suffer no armor wpf penalty.

I can totally see why he think native is faster.
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2011, 07:29:47 pm
Dunno, in my lightish armor and with my balanced german greatsword @ 18 agi, 157 wpf it felt about the same as nditions with a greatsword.
Turning into swing aside. You could be right here about speed.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 09:34:04 pm
well, 21/18 builds with medium-speed weapons seem faster than nditions imo
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 09:43:43 pm
In my personal Opinion, the Delivery of Damage is to easy on some platforms... Take a look at what weapons dominate the field, regardless of player...

In order:

Crossbows/Throwing weapons: Basically use them self and anyone half decent can score hits for "massive damage" (loomed siege, 100 dmg)

Archers - Self explaining, but actually not to bad damage wise....


Katana/Weeaboo weapons: Very fast, easy to use - easy damage delivery once your in close combat

2h Weapons (Epic range, partly with silly speed)

-Polearms, 1h and shielders-


You see that the weapons that allow easy damage delivery, are used the most... so I'd mostly agree with the first suggestions point in reducing damage:

Throwing weapon damage reduced by about 20%, but higher in the top end of skill requirement.
Crossbows harshly nerfed by about 20-40% of there current damage output
Overly fast weapons that jump out of balance, nerfed by a good  bit (Katana, minus 5-10 cut damage or speed brought in line with others)
Speed reduction on most 2h weapons


Return the game to player skill, not who lands the first lucky hit...
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 09:54:34 pm
Quote from: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 09:43:43 pm
In my personal Opinion, the Delivery of Damage is to easy on some platforms... Take a look at what weapons dominate the field, regardless of player...

In order:

Crossbows/Throwing weapons: Basically use them self and anyone half decent can score hits for "massive damage" (loomed siege, 100 dmg)

Archers - Self explaining, but actually not to bad damage wise....


Katana/Weeaboo weapons: Very fast, easy to use - easy damage delivery once your in close combat

2h Weapons (Epic range, partly with silly speed)

-Polearms, 1h and shielders-


You see that the weapons that allow easy damage delivery, are used the most... so I'd mostly agree with the first suggestions point in reducing damage:

Throwing weapon damage reduced by about 20%, but higher in the top end of skill requirement.
Crossbows harshly nerfed by about 20-40% of there current damage output
Overly fast weapons that jump out of balance, nerfed by a good  bit (Katana, minus 5-10 cut damage or speed brought in line with others)
Speed reduction on most 2h weapons


Return the game to player skill, not who lands the first lucky hit...

you are wrong.

There are any throwers yes, but tehre are more 2H's

there are also more polearms than archers and xbowers, and i wouldnt put polearms in category with 1h+shield when looking at how easy they are to use, as shield is the easiest way if you just want a kd > 1.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2011, 09:58:06 pm
Quote from: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 09:43:43 pm
Return the game to player skill, not who lands the first lucky hit...

It is about player skill, not about who lands the first lucky hit.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 10:42:07 pm
Meh, you guys are probably right. I do not have any proof for it, I can only go by feeling. :/

In any case, I liked the wfp curve/speed pre-patch, it was fast an exciting, now it just feels dull and boring.

And yes, facing a ninja, such as Khorin with 210+ wfp with me at around 200 wfp, each wielding a masterwork katana was damn epic and extremly exciting. :D
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 10:52:43 pm
Quote from: Torp on March 04, 2011, 09:54:34 pm
you are wrong.

There are any throwers yes, but tehre are more 2H's

there are also more polearms than archers and xbowers, and i wouldnt put polearms in category with 1h+shield when looking at how easy they are to use, as shield is the easiest way if you just want a kd > 1.

>You are wrong
>mention small detail (order of overused weapons), that you personally have slightly different opinion of

I'm not talking about easiest way to get a good kd, this topic is about Damage and we all know your still mad about the katana critic "ninja"... please, stay on topic.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 10:53:43 pm
Quote from: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 10:52:43 pm
>You are wrong
>mention small detail (order of overused weapons), that you personally have slightly different opinion of

I'm not talking about easiest way to get a good kd, this topic is about Damage and we all know your still mad about the katana critic "ninja"... please, stay on topic.

actually i don't even use katana

and to stay on topic; i think damage is fine as it is
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 11:04:03 pm
Quote from: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 09:43:43 pm
Return the game to player skill, not who lands the first lucky hit...

Actually it feels a lot more like it's about the skill now when most people die in 2-3 hits than it was pre-patch when everyone was taking 5-6 hits to kill. People block and feint a lot more now, are a lot more aware of their surroundings and topping the scoreboard is harder.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Banok on March 05, 2011, 02:23:06 am
Quote from: Thtb on March 04, 2011, 09:43:43 pm
SNIP

while I agree with a couple of things you are obviously a very biased and probably bad player. I recommend you try out some other types of characters and put down the shield.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 06, 2011, 02:00:55 am
And again there is a complete failure to lead any discussion without someone attacking the one giving the comment/opinion, instead of the opinion itself.

Quote
You don't agree with me? You have to be a bad player!

A game of any sort should be (to a degree) accessible for all kinds of players, good or bad... many players start bad and become good, but if the game is already cripplingly frustrating (dead before you can even engage in one close combat for example) it may cut down the player number and the joy of the game itself.

Didn't chad himself state that same point, where the game should be play- and enjoyable for all sorts of players?

Please, try to take part in a Discussion without degrading it?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2011, 02:06:12 am
10/10 good troll would get trolled again if i didn't have ph.D in trolling

8-0 with cavalry, you have proven all your points sir.

edit: also +1 for me getting mentioned in the screenshot.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 06, 2011, 02:12:20 am
Ah yes, sadly your score at that moment was to bad to be visible in the scoreboard, what a shame...
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: UrLukur on March 06, 2011, 02:14:50 am
Quote from: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 11:04:03 pm
Actually it feels a lot more like it's about the skill now when most people die in 2-3 hits than it was pre-patch when everyone was taking 5-6 hits to kill. People block and feint a lot more now, are a lot more aware of their surroundings and topping the scoreboard is harder.

Quite the opposite, having to hit someone multiple times make more skill based gameplay.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2011, 02:15:02 am
By using one's eyes, one could spy with one's little eye that my score is 2-4.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Babelfish on March 06, 2011, 02:30:55 am
Quote from: UrLukur on March 06, 2011, 02:14:50 am
Quite the opposite, having to hit someone multiple times make more skill based gameplay.
*edit* sleepy..
Being punished immediately for your failures makes a harder-but-more-rewarding learning curve, then always having a second chance after a failure. 
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: UrLukur on March 06, 2011, 02:42:29 am
Quote from: Babelfish on March 06, 2011, 02:30:55 am
*edit* sleepy..
Being punished immediately for your failures makes a harder-but-more-rewarding learning curve, then always having a second chance after a failure.

Not really more rewarding. It just promote solo play. Always having second chance promote cooperate play more. Learning curve is harder in multiple-tries gameplay.

Also, problem lies in the situation that most players use top tier weapons (as it's no-brainer, their cost is really low) and low tier armor (as armor does not help much, often people take it just for anti ranged protection).

But most problematic part is that flat reduction of incoming damage is high and percentage reduction is too low (after factoring in armor randomisation). True problem lies in hardcoded single stat armor value - IF armor would be double stat value (say 30 soak 40 reduction), then this game would sport some really neat armor selection (and some real CHOICES).
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 06, 2011, 11:46:38 am
Good points UrLukur!


I personally would like a game where dieing to a single hit requires a enemy who has a strongly str. focused build or getting lanced, but it never being possibly with ranged (short of siege crossbow/best bow on a naked person), but also allows for a very good player, with very bad equipment to still kill a very bad player, with very good equipment.

The different Armor Values (soak, reduction...) could be enhanced with a more varied applying of damage (chip damage, damage to armor?) or really just encourage the use of special setups... like before the last few updates, I would focus on piercing weapons, to get though the tin-cans, while they would normally focus on a big cut damage weapon to cut down the peasants.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Vexus on March 06, 2011, 12:20:57 pm
Imo many weapons have high damage or maybe armor in general have low protection when you can 2 hit easily with a balanced build say 18 strength/agility, even with 15 strength with certain weapons you can 2 hit.

In my opinion to be able to 2 hit one should have around 24 strength + upping some of the weapon and armor requirements while a regular balanced build should take a hit or 2 more but hey your faster.

This thread won't serve for anything anyway people think it's fine to 1-2 hit most people anyway.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2011, 12:27:49 pm
chadz never said the game should be enjoyable to everyone. In fact he kind of said the opposite. That he didn't care about how many people played the game as long as it was a game that HE personally thought was enjoyable.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Nemeth on March 06, 2011, 12:28:57 pm
Quote from: Thtb on March 06, 2011, 11:46:38 am
I personally would like a game where dieing to a single hit requires a enemy who has a strongly str. focused build or getting lanced, but it never being possibly with ranged (short of siege crossbow/best bow on a naked person), but also allows for a very good player, with very bad equipment to still kill a very bad player, with very good equipment.

You know that this is the current state, right? You can't usually one shot anyone in decent armor (mail and above) without high strength or speed bonus, or when you hit their head and they are wearing shitty helmet. Siege crossbow already can't one hit anything except low level players and naked (or in cloth armor, which is basicly the same) guys. I'll ignore the bow part...
To the last point, good players in bad equipment can easily beat tin cans. Just watch Phyrex or other good players when they feel like saving money.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Thtb on March 06, 2011, 03:27:46 pm
In extremes, yes.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2011, 03:32:27 pm
Skill still matters most. As long as you got enough PS to do some damage, doesn't matter what your wpf/equipment is, you'll beat the bad players with good equipment.

As for too much damage? Nah, someone said it before... fighting multiple enemies would become impossible if there was less damage.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Warcat on March 07, 2011, 09:57:18 am
Somehow I survived a throwing lance to the stomach through my sturdy robe today, even with 10 ironflesh, I don't get how that didn't kill me.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: John on March 07, 2011, 09:39:59 pm
Quote from: Warcat on March 07, 2011, 09:57:18 am
Somehow I survived a throwing lance to the stomach through my sturdy robe today, even with 10 ironflesh, I don't get how that didn't kill me.

Well, if you have 30 strength, you have 85 hitpoints.  A guy with 7 powerthrow would do about 102 damage with a throwing lance point blank.  You do have some armor, and the damage goes down pretty significantly as it travels in the air, so it sounds quite possible to me. 

Now, once someone survived a throwing lance from my 12 powerthrow dedicated thrower while wearing a nomad robe at close range.  THAT is hard to understand.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: La Makina on March 10, 2011, 11:15:50 am
Quote from: Bobthehero on March 04, 2011, 05:36:08 pm
You gotta remember that sometimes you get hit in the face rather than in the body, that means pierce damage do x3 damage and cut x2.

For the sake of clarity: I do see instakill hitting me on the main body even though I have 50 points of body armor (plus the gauntlets). I have 0 in Iron Flesh but I am not sure that 8 more HP would really change something.
The armor is really useful against arrows, bumping horses and teamhits (that's already a lot). Otherwise I am not impressed by its protective value (or people's damages are comparatively exceptionnal).
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2011, 12:24:30 pm
You have no right to complain about too much damage overall if you have no IF. It makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 10, 2011, 02:45:09 pm
Yes I agree that there is too much damage. I played Brytanwalda extensively and the reduced damage there significantly contribute to the game play and even change the whole fighting style. I do not suggest to lower it that much, but a good lowering of damage can improve gameplay and lower effectiveness of spamming. However, the preferred solution is not among the options in the poll!

The easiest way to change effective damage is to tweak the soak/reduction values in the module.ini file. This can increase armor across the board with tweaking of only 6 numbers instead of going item by item. It is a huge advantage as a practical solution because it keeps the relative item stats and VERY quick and easy to test - leading to quick optimization during testing (vs. editing all items in each testing iteration...).

However, increasing soak/reduce factors make strong armors even stronger and has little effect on light armors, so everything up to mail will still get one shotted and plates become titanium armor. The effectiveness of armor increase non linear: the difference between 50 and 55 is much greater than between 30 and 35.  If soak/reduce values are to be increased, top armors need a small armor value reduction - note that this is not a nerf because each armor point becomes much more valuable.

The best solution: Reduction of weapon damage stats.
Some swords do well over 40 in damage and PLAENTY of 1H weapons do above 30. After some heirlooming 2H swords reach the 47-48 cut - high damage benefit even more from PS and the damage becomes INSANE. Damage stats on items need to come down 15-20% across the board This will lower 2H swords from 40ish to 32ish and 1H swords from 30ish to 24ish. It use percentage instead of flat number because all bonuses (PS, speed) are % based.
It has several advantages over messing around with armor values and factors:
1. It makes medium armors more meaningful, makes plate stronger but not impenetrable.
2. It makes PS felt more - with current damage you one-shot almost anything or two-shot at most with PS5 or PS10 with the heavy weapons.
3. It makes Heirlooms more significant without overpowering them - 2 more damage on a 32 cut sword is much more significant than 2 more on a 40cut sword.

After the damage reduction, the final touch can be done by the tweaking of armor soak/reduce in the module.ini
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: La Makina on March 10, 2011, 02:48:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 10, 2011, 12:24:30 pm
You have no right to complain about too much damage overall if you have no IF. It makes a huge difference.
This was not a complaint, just a statement to contribute to the thread. Very well, I will try with more IF on my next gen and see if the difference is substantial.

Quote from: Freland link=topic=2711.msg46860#msg4686 0
After my war cleaver went from 43 to 48 cut(after triplle heirlooming) I really felt a big difference. I started one shotting people a lot. I say 50% of my strikes kill the enemy immediately (with 6PS and 160 WPF). That's just too much (...) Armor heirlooms are quite bad in comparison. (...)
This is how I experience it (on the wrong side of the cleaver).
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: AgentQ on March 10, 2011, 03:29:51 pm
after trying if 0 my last gen, i agree that IF 0 to 6 makes a big difference. There is no point wearing heavy armor if you have if 0
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Chasab on March 10, 2011, 03:39:16 pm
the difference between an AWP in CS and someone coming at you with a warcleaver in C-rpg is you can block the warcleaver. If he hits you, you die. ok, well dont let him hit you you can block the attack either with your weapon or with a shield. With the Awp as soon as he fires if he either hit you and you died, or he missed and is reloading.

For me there is nothing more infuriating, then getting behind the archer lines, hitting the nearest archer in the head wearing his leather cap, with my 8PS 148 WPF doubleloomed elite scimitar and having them not die in one shot.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: bruce on March 10, 2011, 03:44:54 pm
Meh, I'd just do it RCM-style if you asked me.

The only good way is to change the armour stats, and then change soak/reduction in modules.ini to make bouncing less common. Essentially, up the armour rating of mail & mid-tier helms to 50-60, armour rating of plate & high-tier helms to 120ish. Leather and so on should stay where it is. Make all the throwing bullshit cutting damage as well as sword stabs (increase damage there), and increase arrow & bolt damage.

Pros:
- damage overall reduced, less oneshotting medium armoured people with swords or suchlike
- blunt and pierce damage become more important to deal with armour rather then an optional extra (mind you, it might warrant a rebalance of a few blunt/pierce weapons)
- armour becomes something prized and important rather than stuff you wear for looks and for surviving the occasional ranged projectile

Cons:
- ninjas and various agispammers cry rivers
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Spawny on March 10, 2011, 04:02:52 pm
Quote from: MouthnHoof on March 10, 2011, 02:45:09 pm
3. It makes Heirlooms more significant without overpowering them - 2 more damage on a 32 cut sword is much more significant than 2 more on a 40cut sword.

Heirlooms are % based aswell. If I remember correctly, MW adds +14% damage (stats show rounded down values, the game engine might use the actual values though).
So less base damage on a weapon would mean lower modifiers on heirloomed weapons aswell.

Quote from: bruce on March 10, 2011, 03:44:54 pm
Meh, I'd just do it RCM-style if you asked me.

The only good way is to change the armour stats, and then change soak/reduction in modules.ini to make bouncing less common. Essentially, up the armour rating of mail & mid-tier helms to 50-60, armour rating of plate & high-tier helms to 120ish. Leather and so on should stay where it is. Make all the throwing bullshit cutting damage as well as sword stabs (increase damage there), and increase arrow & bolt damage.

Pros:
- damage overall reduced, less oneshotting medium armoured people with swords or suchlike
- blunt and pierce damage become more important to deal with armour rather then an optional extra (mind you, it might warrant a rebalance of a few blunt/pierce weapons)
- armour becomes something prized and important rather than stuff you wear for looks and for surviving the occasional ranged projectile

Cons:
- ninjas and various agispammers cry rivers


The main con here would be the complete obliteration of anything agility related. You would have no reason whatsoever to pick any agility.
Who cares if you can spam a lot when you need 10 hits to kill someone.

Other than that, it could improve gameplay.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2011, 04:10:13 pm
I disagree. Anything beyond 1v1 would become impossible then, which would suck the skill right out of the game. Only duels would become more skilled, everything else would just depend on numbers.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: bruce on March 10, 2011, 06:51:14 pm
Well, that's how group combat works, numbers and keeping in sensible formation and cooperating rather then someone with lots of personal skill doing most of the killing. But it'll never happen, so it's a moot point really.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2011, 06:58:36 pm
That's how it mostly works now, but you have a chance against multiple opponents.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: bruce on March 10, 2011, 07:05:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 10, 2011, 06:58:36 pm
That's how it mostly works now, but you have a chance against multiple opponents.

Well, yes, but... I mean, I'm not some expert manual blocker, but I've once killed 12 people spamming my MW glaive around. Granted they were coming uphill and generally were wounded and failed, but that is a bit silly really. With a 21/15 build most people die in one slash to the face with my MW sarranid cav sword (ha ha onehanders underpowered, need sidesword to compete). It's a bit bullshit, too. It would improve the group combat part of the game, imo, if armour mattered a lot more then now, and some one-hitters were changed to have a more reasonable performance.

However this is strictly in the domains of the theoretical, I suspect we'll never ever see something of that sort in CRPG.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2011, 07:38:05 pm
Well I dunno, if those 12 people failed so hard you deserved to win. Any one of them could've killed you if they were good enough, and no matter how bad they were 4-5 of them could've gotten you if they played smart.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Wallace on March 12, 2011, 11:56:18 pm
I don't know if this occurred to you but the changes you are talking about would result in me being both retarded rich on my character and an unstoppable machine from hell.

With my build and what you are talking about I would have well over 100 HP and 90ish armor
I wouldn't die

To top that off 12 PS and a high tier weapon which I have so much gold that I hardly would care about that minor cost jump I would one shot everyone while people glance on me and the peasants yell REVOLT again
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Raskolnikov on March 13, 2011, 06:03:18 am
Nope, I think the amount of damage is just fine. I'm glad most people seem to feel the same way.

Quote from: bruce
Well, yes, but... I mean, I'm not some expert manual blocker, but I've once killed 12 people spamming my MW glaive around.

As Xant said, good for you! They made the mistake of attacking you one by one and you were just better than them, so you killed them all as they came. This is exactly the way it should be! I love watching the good players chewing through the lesser players (yes, even if that probably includes me). If combat was made less lethal it would degenerate into protracted slugging matches, and that means we would no longer see heroes running into groups of enemies and cutting them down like wheat before a scythe! I think it's an incredible sight to witness and I would miss it terribly. :( It's our own fault if we can't block, and we should get punished for it.
Title: Re: Too much damage overall?
Post by: Torp on March 13, 2011, 01:52:04 pm
I don't think armor should be increased, everyone would end up swinging huge blunt weapons and making 30/6 builds.
We need variety, and increased armor values doesnt give us that