cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Xol! on February 19, 2012, 03:14:37 pm

Title: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Xol! on February 19, 2012, 03:14:37 pm
I play both infantry & cav.  As cav, I primarily use a courser, and very, very, very rarely use my mamluk.  I personally benefit quite a bit from the recent change, but unfortunately, it is unbalanced.

Here's a little table of some of the testing I've done with a couple of friends:

Horse                                 Hits to kill            Damage            Powerstrike                Speed bonus                    Hit location
Large warhorse                  1                        29 pierce              7                                   Yes                              Left shoulder
Large warhorse                  1                        40 blunt               7                                    Yes                             Left hip
+3 Mamluk                          2                        33 pierce             6                                     No                               Right hip
+3 Mamluk                          2                        39 cut                  7                                     No                               Left Leg
+3 Mamluk                          3                        21 blunt               7                                     No                               Left leg
+3 Mamluk                          2                        40 blunt               7                                     No                               Right shoulder
+3 Mamluk                          9                        40 blunt               7                                     No                               Head


I haven't had a chance to test it, but it from anecdotal evidence, it totally screws up cav vs cav fights.  No need to couch a heavy horse anymore, just stab it once in the legs.

This is the damage my horse took from a single stab while riding away from someone using an awlpike in battle.  Note where the bloodstain is:
(click to show/hide)

Now, you shouldn't be able to ride into the enemy team, get stopped by a pike, and expect to make it out in one piece.  I think everyone can agree on that. I'm advocating no change to that.  However, both from a realism and a balance standpoint, the size of the region the bonus damage is applied to is much, much to large, or the actual damage is a little bit too high.  The hips and the shoulders are both definitely armored, and shouldn't be taking bonus damage.  If you're going to be able to kill an armored horse in one hit, you better be pulling off a skilled, well placed stab.  Or, if the legs are supposed to be an alternative to hitting the horse in the head, rework the damage numbers to make a it a true alternative, rather than a replacement.

I don't know about other people, but since learning this, I am completely and totally unafraid of heavy cavalry when I'm on foot.  I'm much more worried about coursers and arabians because of their speed and maneuverability.  It's harder to pull off stealthy attacks with heavy cavalry because of the speed, and once you commit to an attack it's harder to break off should something go wrong.

However, until this is changed, hopefully people are now more aware of the proper way to deal with heavy cavalry (leg shots!). 

Happy heavy cav hunting!

edit: typo
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: POOPHAMMER on February 19, 2012, 03:55:51 pm
Agreed, this basically makes any heavy horse a fancy looking sumpter horse in comparison to taking damage. Paying high repairs on top of that is also insulting when my +3 mamluk dies in 1-2 hits with little to no speed bonus.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Gnjus on February 19, 2012, 05:43:15 pm
Champion Mameluk Horse goes down much faster then before the latest patch, it used to be hard to kill which was a good compensation for 1H cav being almost useless against aware opponents but now........high upkeep + not being able to take that many hits + so many ranged again + decent amount of city/town/camping/stupid hilly maps = better to dismount then act as heavy cavalry.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Leshma on February 19, 2012, 06:07:56 pm
Tell that to Jarl Hangus when you see him :wink:
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Gnjus on February 19, 2012, 06:13:13 pm
Tell that to Jarl Hangus when you see him :wink:

I see him picking off blind people all the time but what does it have to do with this subject ?
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Tzar on February 19, 2012, 06:20:47 pm
The dmg is a bit too much yeah i agree but it shouldn't be lowered too much if they decide to do so..


Just get a formula 1 courser or an arab cirkus pony an respec to lancer if your wanna be cav 1h cav is good for one thing an thats waiting for the lancers to die an then come in an pick of the peices thats busy fighten... Z  z    z    z    Z    z ¨¨

I only picked 1h cav for when i get bored of being inf just so i wouldnt retire all the time its a nice change to being inf 24/7
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on February 19, 2012, 06:32:57 pm
Plate charger = Rubbish now
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Digglez on February 19, 2012, 06:36:19 pm
the barding on armored horses actually covers most of the legs, so its stupid they get a bonus on armored horses anyways

its also loose material which deflects/absorbs even more energy

I agree, when someone with 6 PS can 1shot a plated charger in the legs, game is broken
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: n445 on February 19, 2012, 09:51:40 pm
even though it can deflect/abosrd CUT damage. think of an awlpike to a knee.

1. pierce owns heavy armour
2. armoured horses have heavy armour
3. the legs dont have padding under the armour so all you get is direct contact after piercing through the horse,
4. realistic

thats why polearms were always so efficiant against cavs
just be smart on how you play and dont run into sharp objects.
its funny that when a patch gets released the people with the single digit IQ stand out. They are the ones who QQ about how they get killed so easy now when they cant even use simple guidelines...

DONT RUN INTO SHARP THINGS
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Xol! on February 19, 2012, 11:12:23 pm
its funny that when a patch gets released the people with the single digit IQ stand out.

The irony.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on February 20, 2012, 01:34:41 am
even though it can deflect/abosrd CUT damage. think of an awlpike to a knee.

(click to show/hide)

Yeah good luck with that hitting a mug sized object as it flys past you with your rather larger needle.

At the moment the rouncey is the best horse all round IMO. Cheap, fast enough, tough enough. Also its req is so low you can hybrid it.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Penitent on February 20, 2012, 07:26:13 pm
Back when archery was nerfed hard, cav started taking over.  Now that archery is back up to snuff, I don't think we need this nerf to cav (leg damage).  Cav was balanced before the archery nerf, and they are a little too fragile right now.  I think it should be put back, honestly.

Heavy horses SHOULD be able to ride in to some infantry and have a good chance at coming out alive.  That is what they are made for.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Aleta on February 20, 2012, 08:46:59 pm
So that's why armored horses don't die when I hit them three times in the face with my giant axe? I should have aimed for the legs!
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on February 20, 2012, 09:47:51 pm
nerf cav

remove the legs, I say. they should have to worm around the battlefield.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Kato on February 21, 2012, 12:22:42 am
bump :D

Today i tried play two rounds on plated charger - first time one shoted by great sword swing and second time by gs stab.
Armored horses are absolutely useless now, and it getting only worse when more and more people know about this feature.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Aleta on February 21, 2012, 12:53:31 am
yea, seriously the best place to hit a horse should be the face, not the legs. Just make the legs as a part of the body imo. (perhaps buff head damage slightly to weigh up for this)
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Penitent on February 21, 2012, 12:59:37 am
There aren't that many cav players, and even fewer heavy cav players that would notice this and care, so its hard to get enough people advocating to prompt a change.  Still, I think this should be looked in to.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: BADPLAYERold on February 21, 2012, 07:35:33 am
I use primarily armoured horses as lance cav and the change hasn't affected me at all, but this must suck real bad for 1h/2h cavalry which are already so much worse than lance cav.
Don't know why they made this change to nerf mainly the types of cav that are already underpowered instead of lance cav which is retardedly OP.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on February 21, 2012, 11:27:49 am
bump :D

Today i tried play two rounds on plated charger - first time one shoted by great sword swing and second time by gs stab.
Armored horses are absolutely useless know, and it getting only worse when more and more people know about this feature.


yea it's true a Champion plated charger can get one hitted lol
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Vexus on February 21, 2012, 12:20:05 pm
It funny seeing the most expensive equipment die in 1 hit tough.

(Obviously overly nerfed)
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Tzar on February 21, 2012, 12:58:13 pm
1h/2h cav is dead.... mission reduce use of horses with the usual slegdehammer nerf style successful

FFs... couldnt you just have waited an see how it would go with the ranged fairy´s gettin their stupid high dmg back :?:

EDIT: why hit the weakest cav classes an not the strongest  :?:
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on February 21, 2012, 01:12:29 pm
1h/2h cav is dead.... mission reduce use of horses with the usual slegdehammer nerf style successful

FFs... couldnt you just have waited an see how it would go with the ranged fairy´s gettin their stupid high dmg back :?:

EDIT: why hit the weakest cav classes an not the strongest  :?:

The strongest = Lancer has already got nerf few patch ago, thats why people turn into 1 handed Cav...now.....
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Tzar on February 21, 2012, 01:15:50 pm
thats why people turn into 1 handed Cav...now.....

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Penitent on February 21, 2012, 07:51:16 pm
The strongest = Lancer has already got nerf few patch ago, thats why people turn into 1 handed Cav...now.....

No, people turned to cav because archers got nerfed.  Now archers are not nerfed any more, so cav needs to be buffed back.

I agree that playing 1h cav is harder than ever.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 21, 2012, 08:52:49 pm
yesterday my champion courser took a light throwing axe to the front left and back left ankle area of my horse and it still had over 3/4 health.  if anything damage is too low for unarmored horse legs.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Xol! on February 21, 2012, 09:30:25 pm
a light throwing axe

The damage change only applies to melee, not to ranged.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 21, 2012, 10:47:14 pm
The damage change only applies to melee, not to ranged.

Ok that makes sense then.  But my courser takes too much damage from throwers and arrows, crossbows still fuck it up quickly.

not suggesting another nerf, because I think they should stop nerfing stuff...but just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: POOPHAMMER on February 22, 2012, 03:47:52 am
Ok that makes sense then.  But my courser takes too much damage from throwers and arrows, crossbows still fuck it up quickly.

not suggesting another nerf, because I think they should stop nerfing stuff...but just my 2 cents.

I am starting to think that this game goes in nerf circles of cav, infantry classes, and ranged

Nerf range, gotta nerf cav to make up for it, then gotta nerf this etc

Oh now this class is getting more kills and causing QQ! Nerf it! Oh shit we nerfed ranged here goes cav, lets not rebuff things

Lets nerf everything else!

CRPG 2013: 1 blunt MW flamberge edition
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 22, 2012, 06:02:01 pm
me too poop.  I call it nerf-rpg.  They nerf one thing, and then "unexpectedly" something becomes "overpowered", better nerf that.  Oh now something else is "overpowered" better nerf that...oh now something else became overpowered because of previous nerf, better nerf the "OP" thing.

As the Republicans love to say, "nerfing is a slippery slope"
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on March 18, 2012, 10:51:17 pm
 :cry:
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Joker86 on March 19, 2012, 02:21:09 am
I don't think you can EVER balance cavalry properly by only changing their stats.

First of all you need to take into concern two things while balancing stuff: first of all, you have to be sure that all classes on the server have the same average strength, which means that there must not be a class that's easier to play or more difficult to play, because this would be unfair. "But you can make a class that's difficult to play more effective, once mastered". That's right, but this is only balanced in single player, not in MP. It's fair for the particular players who invested a lot of time and effort to master the difficult class, but on the other hand every good player who would want to maximize his performance (and many do) would end up with this class, making it overrepresented and too dominating on the servers. On the other hand, the "easy" classes with a low skill ceiling would be underrepresented, destroying any "rock-paper-scissors-balance", which always needs equal numbers to work properly. The logical consequence is, that all classes need to be of equal effectivity on any skill level.

With this insight in mind, you have to think about cavalry: if you take a look on the server, you can see that cavalry is not effective because they are particularly good, or the class is particularly OP, it is ONLY that effective because the other classes suck so much in fighting cav. And it's not the problem of the classes themselves, it's their players!

They listen to music (and don't hear the horses coming), they autowalk after spawning like lemmings and robots, they don't stick together, they don't evade open fields, they don't stay defensively when the enemy has more cav, and most important they are not aware of their surroundings. I think cav is the class I die least to, and I am infantry. I can't say I can block manually, two, perhaps three hits in a row, then I am usually screwed. My skills suck. Still cav often enough tops the scoreboard. So it's not my skills, that make me so difficult to kill for cav, it's my behaviour.

And unless you don't fix the average behaviour of non-cav players on the servers, you will always have the problem of cavalry seeming too weak (when the non-cav players know how to fight cav) or cav seeming too strong (when a good cav players fights non-cav players who don't have a clue of how to be aware).

You can't fix the missing awareness of their targets by lowering the cav stats to a ridiculous point. You already see what heavy cav has to suffer from, and still I can't say "buff them", because in theory, against infantry who knows how to play, it would not be OP at all, but in reality, with the amount of headless lemmings on the servers, it would allow them to wreak havoc among the enemy team.

That's the point of the whole story. Make players be more aware of cav, and you will be able to buff cav to a resonable level again. But the less brain the average cRPG player has (or uses), the more weird nerfs you will have to suffer from.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: n445 on March 21, 2012, 07:45:44 pm
even though it can deflect/abosrd CUT damage. think of an awlpike to a knee.

1. pierce owns heavy armour
2. armoured horses have heavy armour
3. the legs dont have padding under the armour so all you get is direct contact after piercing through the horse,
4. realistic

thats why polearms were always so efficiant against cavs
just be smart on how you play and dont run into sharp objects.
its funny that when a patch gets released the people with the single digit IQ stand out. They are the ones who QQ about how they get killed so easy now when they cant even use simple guidelines...

DONT RUN INTO SHARP THINGS



BUFF CAV. Just because I'm a HA now. =D
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: BADPLAYERold on March 21, 2012, 09:13:53 pm
heavy horses should reduce have less upkeep since the damage deal to legs by melee users is ridiculous

Edit: The legs damage bonus against CAV has gone very badly, 1-2 hits from legs is enough to kill 90% of heavy horses's health, buff them back to where they were before!

now heavy CAV is only good to fight against archers and they suck so bad against melee players since their horses can die from 1-3 hits

I use a Champion Cataphract and it's fine.

(speaking as a lancer that is.. for 1h/2h cav not so much but it's always been bad for those classes)
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Digglez on March 21, 2012, 09:16:49 pm
I use a Champion Cataphract and it's fine.

(speaking as a lancer that is.. for 1h/2h cav not so much but it's always been bad for those classes)

no its never been bad for 1h until NOW.  Armored horses could often get reared and hit by multiple 2h'ers and still get away.  Now all it takes is 1 rear or a good side swing of any weapon to kill the horse.  Not only is it unrealistic its unbalanced. 

You wouldnt know because you use a 190 reach weapon
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on March 21, 2012, 09:49:18 pm
I use a Champion Cataphract and it's fine.

(speaking as a lancer that is.. for 1h/2h cav not so much but it's always been bad for those classes)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: Joker86 on March 21, 2012, 10:28:50 pm
Currently not lamellar west wearing, katana swinging Ninjas are the Ninjas of the battlefield, cavalry is. Their gameplay boils down to attacking enemies who are not paying attention, and to survive by not gaining attention at all.

As the community - like I have described above - makes it really easy for cavalry, I think with the current state of the game on the servers, with all those lemmings, fragile horses are okay. As long as it is possible to easily kill half a dozen unaware players per round who won't defend themselves at all (because they are unaware, derp) you don't need to have tough horses.

Make infantry players concentrate on cav more, and I will support BOTH, lower upkeep and tougher horses. But with the current state of the game, where I have to write every round to watch out for cav, and to wait until the enemy cav is down before you charge, and still seeing dozens of players being lanced in their back - or even worse, from the front! - without a single other enemy nearby who could have apllied as distraction and thus as an excuse, I don't think you deserve a single tiny buff  :wink:  :P
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: BADPLAYERold on March 21, 2012, 11:17:48 pm
No it's not fine. Before the nerf heavy horses can at least take few hits before they actually die. Now 1 hit can kills 30% or even 60% of your horse health. You were a lancer ofc but try to charge into melee cluster F***. most horses won't come out alive in there because just 1-2 hits is enough to bring down even a plate charger. (Note that i am talking about the hits to the horse's legs. Using a lance can avoid being stab or slash but when you try some of the suicide charging you will notice that there is a big nerf to the horses's legs.

You are the person this nerf was supposed to affect, the people who suicide charge the enemy get a kill then get away with their horse still alive. Doing this takes 0skill and is frustrating to other players so i'm mostly glad it was nerfed.

no its never been bad for 1h until NOW.  Armored horses could often get reared and hit by multiple 2h'ers and still get away.  Now all it takes is 1 rear or a good side swing of any weapon to kill the horse.  Not only is it unrealistic its unbalanced. 

You wouldnt know because you use a 190 reach weapon

I've played 1handed/2handed cavalry before and after the horse leg nerf (though only with 1wpf after to test how it was) and honestly for me not much has changed, I don't charge into people expecting to get hit I only attack if i'm sure I won't get hit which often means just attacking from behind if i'm not using a lance..
I understand it's bad for 1h/2h cavalry but you just gotta change your playstyle, realise you won't kill most aware enemies and that you are more of a support.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: rustyspoon on March 21, 2012, 11:36:44 pm
I've played 1handed/2handed cavalry before and after the horse leg nerf (though only with 1wpf after to test how it was) and honestly for me not much has changed, I don't charge into people expecting to get hit I only attack if i'm sure I won't get hit which often means just attacking from behind if i'm not using a lance..
I understand it's bad for 1h/2h cavalry but you just gotta change your playstyle, realise you won't kill most aware enemies and that you are more of a support.

I've been doing a lot better as 1-handed cav after switching horses. I currently use the Steppe horse and in 1 level I'll be using the Arabian Warhorse. If your horse is going to go down in 1-hit anyway, might as well use one that's easy to maneuver out of the way at a moment's notice.

UPDATE: The Arabian Warhorse is fantastic.
Title: Re: [Damage calculations] Cavalry leg damage bonus
Post by: _Tak_ on March 21, 2012, 11:44:35 pm
humm