cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Dezilagel on February 10, 2012, 05:47:06 pm

Title: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Dezilagel on February 10, 2012, 05:47:06 pm
Let's face it. Backpedaling is and has always been a very powerful playstyle.

And with the current speed of the game and skill of the average player its usefullness only continues to rise.

I'm not saying it cannot be beaten, or that it doesn't have its disadvantages, but it is strong, and above all, imo, very boring.

In the past there have been threads/posts suggesting movement speed nerfs for backpedaling but that shouldn't be tampered with imo. Backpedaling should remain a viable defensive measure and when it comes to the movement speed in itself I at least feel that it's just about right.

What I would like to see though is less reward in the offensive department for backpedaling. Currently you have the speed bonus yes, but most of the time that works in favor of the backpedaler since his enemy will be moving towards him.

What I suggest is a flat damage increase/decrease depending on your speed and direction of movement.

This would encourage a more offensive style of play, both in duels and in battle. I feel the rewards for it are lacking in both currently. By going on the offensive you expose yourself to all manner of nastiness such as increased damage from arrows/attacks due to speedbonus, kicks, getting surrounded, etc and that's all fine but what's lacking are the rewards imo.

Currently the main reason for going really offensive on someone (read: backpedalers) in a duel/battle is because you want to actually get in contact with him, but you'll always be at a definitive disadvantage. and this is a bit silly imo.

The penalty for moving backwards should be bigger than the bonus for moving forward btw.

Other reasons why I'd like to see this change:

1. Buffing short weapons. They're horribly underused.

2. Buffing agi. Increased acceleration would mean that agi builds could make more use of the feature.

3. More damage vs. runners.

4. Rewards *good* teamwork. Making decisive pushes would have more of an effect.

5. Adds something to the movement in combat rather than just "outrange, outrange, outrange".

6. Kicking, standard outranging and other defensive techniques would still be perfectly viable,  while reducing the effect of the s-key + spam.


Problems I initially see with this:

1. Group fighting. Fighting a group as a single guy would be much harder.

2. 1h, they'll probably become too powerful.

3. Powering up the run away thensuddenlyturn-technique.

4. I have no clue of how to do it or if it's even possible with a sane amount of effort.


Comments? Like/dislike? Suggestions?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Tzar on February 10, 2012, 06:04:24 pm
Just nerf the speed in which people can backpedal dont touch the dmg..

It looks an feels super retarded when u watch some guy walking backwards faster then 8/9 people running forward towards him :lol:

Its a sensitive issue i guess because backpedaling also serves as being useful when you don't wanna join eu1 blobs in gangbangs an wanna do some solo or 3 vs 6 stuff..

As much as i hate it i dont wanna see it go since it´s the only way to avoid turning EU1 into one big gangbang festival

Plus it would reward str stacking cunts in heavy armor too much...
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 10, 2012, 07:10:23 pm
Backpedal speed is already much slower than running forward.  Not to mention you lose weapon speed if you're moving backwards away from your opponent.  There's no reason to mess with this...

Most people who backpedal aren't swinging their weapon as they are moving backwards, they usually half circle in one direction to get some weapon speed bonus...I don't think I've ever seen someone swing while actually moving straight back...if they did, they'd lose a lot of weapon speed and damage...
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Okkam on February 10, 2012, 10:54:58 pm
Quote
From a realistic standpoint (even thoguh that shouldn't really be considered for game balance), this could represent inertia, momentum and the awkwardness of fighting while moving backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxBHrYloFXw&feature=related

Well. Looks like those guys doesn't know nothing about inertia, momentum and the awkwardness of fighting while moving backwards. Noobs, what we can say.


Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Kastu on February 10, 2012, 11:08:19 pm
What would happen to Massassin?
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Penitent on February 10, 2012, 11:21:19 pm
With the proper footwork, a warrior can fight moving backwards just as effectively as moving forwards...although slower.  This is how the game works too.  Seems fine.

There already is a negative speed bonus if you or the enemy is moving backwards!
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Jarlek on February 11, 2012, 02:47:49 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxBHrYloFXw&feature=related

Well. Looks like those guys doesn't know nothing about inertia, momentum and the awkwardness of fighting while moving backwards. Noobs, what we can say.
Aren't those guys moving "sideways" in a way? Considering they have their bodies turned? In cRPG we fight facing straight forward, without the whole dueling pose. Would actually love to have that fencer pose somehow ingame :D 1h sword no-shield all day long!
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Dezilagel on February 11, 2012, 03:21:24 am
(click to show/hide)

What? You high or just didn't read?

(click to show/hide)

"Lose weaon speed" What? Where did you pull this nonsense from?

And if you don't see a problem with backpedaling in duels then I'll gladly come show you.





I know I shouldn't have edited in that tiny paragraph...  :| Game balance please mentelgen!


I know I really do sound like a dick now, but I was hoping for something more constructive.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Camaris on February 11, 2012, 04:24:46 am
If you kill backpaddel that will be the major nerf to all those long hafted blade spammers?
I dont think we should nerf long hafted blade spammers. Its ok that people who only can run away from
you and swing right and left get a kill from time to time. If this playstyle of pure fail would be killed those people
would probably all become archers. I dont want to see more archers.

I thought long time about this and came to a much better solution.
-> MAKE ALL THE MAPS SMALLER

If you reduce map-size by 50% overall this would be a 50% nerf to backpaddling cause
they would hit map border 50% earlier. In addition this would be a cav and archer-nerf => epic win.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Duke on February 11, 2012, 09:34:04 am
I've long felt backpedal speed needs nerfing and to be fair I backpedal a lot (and still feel this way).

I don't want to argue fruitlessly on a polarizing subject, so you all have fun.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: BlackMilk on February 11, 2012, 10:04:02 am
No.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Siiem on February 11, 2012, 10:08:46 am
For throwing and stabbing sure.

But for swings.
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Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on February 11, 2012, 10:47:09 am
looks like it more nerf to agi character with high ath, then buff, and ofc it is buff for agressive str stackers, because to kill they ppl cant backpedal this slow turtles
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on February 11, 2012, 01:14:26 pm
just remove all polebundle of stickss or increase the str difficulty for polearms significantly and tadaaaaaaaaaaaaa, no more backpedalling spastic agiwhores
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Leshma on February 11, 2012, 01:29:38 pm
2. Buffing agi. Increased acceleration would mean that agi builds could make more use of the feature.

High AGI and ATH are the reason why backpedalers are so effective...

I know this for a fact, I hate to play like that but sometimes I catch myself swinging while going backwards. I've killed many STR stackers that way but for some reason I can't kill a single shielder while backpedaling.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Gurnisson on February 11, 2012, 01:40:25 pm
I wouldn't mind having a bit larger boost for offensive play, but I don't think that the backpedaling damage should be lower than it already is. I can just imagine maulers in plate laughing at people bouncing off when they one-hits with the maul.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Adamar on February 11, 2012, 02:41:40 pm
More offensive playstyle, less teamplay.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2012, 03:20:38 pm
just remove all polebundle of stickss or increase the str difficulty for polearms significantly and tadaaaaaaaaaaaaa, no more backpedalling spastic agiwhores

In before you'll rage from being instakilled by high-STR Polearm chars.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Pandor_Archer on February 11, 2012, 04:04:07 pm
Let's face it. Backpedaling is and has always been a very powerful playstyle.

And with the current speed of the game and skill of the average player its usefullness only continues to rise.

I'm not saying it cannot be beaten, or that it doesn't have its disadvantages, but it is strong, and above all, imo, very boring.

In the past there have been threads/posts suggesting movement speed nerfs for backpedaling but that shouldn't be tampered with imo. Backpedaling should remain a viable defensive measure and when it comes to the movement speed in itself I at least feel that it's just about right.

What I would like to see though is less reward in the offensive department for backpedaling. Currently you have the speed bonus yes, but most of the time that works in favor of the backpedaler since his enemy will be moving towards him.

What I suggest is a flat damage increase/decrease depending on your speed and direction of movement.

This would encourage a more offensive style of play, both in duels and in battle. I feel the rewards for it are lacking in both currently. By going on the offensive you expose yourself to all manner of nastiness such as increased damage from arrows/attacks due to speedbonus, kicks, getting surrounded, etc and that's all fine but what's lacking are the rewards imo.

Currently the main reason for going really offensive on someone (read: backpedalers) in a duel/battle is because you want to actually get in contact with him, but you'll always be at a definitive disadvantage. and this is a bit silly imo.

The penalty for moving backwards should be bigger than the bonus for moving forward btw.

Other reasons why I'd like to see this change:

1. Buffing short weapons. They're horribly underused.

2. Buffing agi. Increased acceleration would mean that agi builds could make more use of the feature.

3. More damage vs. runners.

4. Rewards *good* teamwork. Making decisive pushes would have more of an effect.

5. Adds something to the movement in combat rather than just "outrange, outrange, outrange".

6. Kicking, standard outranging and other defensive techniques would still be perfectly viable,  while reducing the effect of the s-key + spam.


Problems I initially see with this:

1. Group fighting. Fighting a group as a single guy would be much harder.

2. 1h, they'll probably become too powerful.

3. Powering up the run away thensuddenlyturn-technique.

4. I have no clue of how to do it or if it's even possible with a sane amount of effort.


Comments? Like/dislike? Suggestions?

(click to show/hide)
backpedeling must be nerfed, agree, buf agi??? no way... nerf 1h? why omg ...
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Brrrak on February 12, 2012, 03:05:43 am
No.

And this is coming from a guy who hates backpedalling so much...[insert your own hyperbole here]
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Tigero on February 12, 2012, 05:16:18 pm
Just add more inertia and make it so that naked spammers get affected about as much as ppl with 9 WU of armor or something. Decreasing backpeddel speed would just make greyt maul super OP.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 12, 2012, 06:01:02 pm
I hate it when I go to duelserver and someone only runs away from me. Couple of dudes playing "ninja style" (meaning nothing like the style of few skilled ninjas) and not even backpedalling but shamelessly just running away and then "suddenly" turning and jump slashing at me. Dont get me wrong I backpedal too and dodge some swings, but hell I just don't get that "run away for 100 meters and surprise that guy who has been chasing you with the same swing you have been holding for 2 minutes"- style. If someone pulls that crap on me, I just simply go passive my self. I start standing still and make the runner attack or just leave the whole duel because it is not relevant to my interests. I don't usually swing when I take a few steps back. I think I'm usually hitting when going forward or sideways. With long war axe there is usually no reason to backpeddle spam, it doesn't work that way. Some weapons like Glaive or Long hafted blade on the other hand are magnificent for it and even a noob with high athletics build can score a few kills with it :D. It is annoying but nabs have to have their kills too, mkay?
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Thomek on February 12, 2012, 06:06:00 pm
Finally someone acknowledging the power of weapon range. +1

Short weapons are underused.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Leshma on February 12, 2012, 06:17:54 pm
Buff katana!
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Kafein on February 12, 2012, 06:29:44 pm
Finally someone acknowledging the power of weapon range. +1

Short weapons are underused.

Thing is, (except if your opponent can read the future and has perfect timing) agi, ath and light equipment compensate a lot for a lack of weapon reach, and act in a similar way when you just do the forward/attack/backward thing. I've seen many long weapon users being "outreached" by ninjas simply because they didn't have the control of the distance between the players. Top speed isn't the main factor, but acceleration is.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Thomek on February 12, 2012, 07:21:16 pm
Well because it is a necessity to be quick with a short weapon.. If you would go Katana Ninja with a STR build everyone would just spam you from distance. If you use a long weapon you are free to choose either STR or AGI builds. Both are viable.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 13, 2012, 01:20:31 am
Well because it is a necessity to be quick with a short weapon.. If you would go Katana Ninja with a STR build everyone would just spam you from distance. If you use a long weapon you are free to choose either STR or AGI builds. Both are viable.
I really like 27/12 with short weapons like katana. Sure, I might have to block twice to get in attack range -- but then I have huge attack speed and damage bonuses over them.
Stuff like 36/3 can't get in proper range with short weapons though. I still do beastly with 33/6 1h though.

back on topic -- There are penalties in place for backpedaling already. You may have to adjust your fighting style to take advantage of them though :)
Players move much slower when backing up, guaranteeing anyone with 5 athletics can ALWAYS catch a backpedaling player unless they very literally have 10+ athletics
When you backpedal away from someone, you suffer a big damage penalty from a negative speed bonus. If the enemy is chasing you, your relative character speeds = 0 though, so that penalty is negated.

So how do you counter a backpedaler?
*You chase them and catch them, and it is no different than fighting with both of you standing still.
*You don't chase them, and as soon as they step back towards you, you also step towards them and get a crazy damage bonus and murder them! Or they run away, in which case -- Why do you care?
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 13, 2012, 01:37:54 am
I really like 27/12 with short weapons like katana. Sure, I might have to block twice to get in attack range -- but then I have huge attack speed and damage bonuses over them.
Stuff like 36/3 can't get in proper range with short weapons though. I still do beastly with 33/6 1h though.

back on topic -- There are penalties in place for backpedaling already. You may have to adjust your fighting style to take advantage of them though :)
Players move much slower when backing up, guaranteeing anyone with 5 athletics can ALWAYS catch a backpedaling player unless they are like... 9/30 build.
When you backpedal away from someone, you suffer a big damage penalty from a negative speed bonus. If the enemy is chasing you, your relative character speeds = 0 though, so that penalty is negated.

So how do you counter a backpedaler?
*You chase them an catch them and it is no different than fighting with both of you standing still.
*You don't chase them, and as soon as they step back towards you, you step towards them and get a crazy damage bonus and murder them! Or they run away, in which case -- do you care?

Str build with Katana was surprisingly viable. I dueled with Vibe and he picked a katana from the ground and kicked my arse so many times. It is brutal to get 2 hit from katana body hit. Even if his build is 27? str his swings were so fast I wasn't always able to see where they came from and neither did he :D. Sorry Thomek but I call your post bullshit. I couldn't keep my distance with 6 athletics and I think Long war axe is long enough to prove the point. I just simply didn't have the time to move away from his range because his swings were so fast and he easilly blocked my attempts to outrange him.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Thomek on February 14, 2012, 12:32:27 am
Go try it in battle then.

An attack, or a chambered attack is also a defense. As long as it is held, the enemy cannot attack, only feinting is safe. No one is afraid of a weapon that cannot reach them. I guess you also have a STR build if you could never outrange him. Hell you could have just jumped backwards to get a free hit chance. (ofc.. he can block when he's outranged. The point is that with a longer weapon you can break the block-hit-block rythm at will, giving you an extra attack.)

Also if you got spammed there has to be something wrong with your ping or the network connection to vibe.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Digglez on February 15, 2012, 08:25:03 pm
the majority of a swing's power comes from having the feet planted and 'pushing' off the ground, which isnt possible while walking backwards.  backpedal swings would be no different than if you were sitting in a chair swinging your weapon, its all based on upper body strength which pales in comparison to a planted swing.

swings will walking backwards should receive between 25% - 50% dmg penalty for realism/physics
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 15, 2012, 08:33:15 pm
They should then implement it for any time your feet aren't planted then

As far as I know, when you're moving away from your opponent you're losing speed bonus on the swing as it is...and possibly receiving negative speed bonus.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Slamz on February 15, 2012, 09:25:16 pm
Not that I expect anyone would like this (me included) but if we wanted to be REALLY realistic, implement a 5% chance per second of backwards movement that you will get a "knockdown".  You trip on a rock and fall over.

I'd like to see anyone go out into rough terrain and run backwards for 30 seconds without busting their ass.  Might work in your manicured backyard but probably not so much in some random field.


At any rate, the real counter to backpedaling is throwing weapons.  Usually if someone consistently backpedals, I will backpedal a little in the other direction to gain some range, then throw axes at their head.  They generally either turn and run to find someone else to fight or decide to charge and stay in my face.
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Digglez on February 15, 2012, 10:33:33 pm
They should then implement it for any time your feet aren't planted then

As far as I know, when you're moving away from your opponent you're losing speed bonus on the swing as it is...and possibly receiving negative speed bonus.

Well the delta V is probably lower, but the person getting hit still prob takes a good chunk of dmg for moving into the swing.  Maybe remove any speed related dmg completely
Title: Re: Damage penalty while backpedaling
Post by: Sagar on February 15, 2012, 10:59:19 pm
Just make a player fall down after few backward steps. Make it random 3-6 steps - so no counting.