cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Miley on February 07, 2012, 01:38:25 am

Title: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Miley on February 07, 2012, 01:38:25 am
Why unnerf throwing and arbalest, whyyyy!
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Meow on February 07, 2012, 01:39:22 am
Because they were completely useless?
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Joker86 on February 07, 2012, 01:53:02 am
Because they were completely useless?

Yes! So why un-nerf?  :mrgreen:


Nah, just kidding. I would buff those two classes more, anyway. I think it's a pity you can't be a (viable) sword'n'board+crossbow hybrid any more. (I mean REAL hybrid, not a shieldman with a "backup" crossbow)

Edit: forget what I said. You can. In theory. I just don't see them around any more. I thought only the two light crossbows were 1 slot, and together with a really good 1hd (2 slots) and a good shield (2slots) you couldn't equip everything. But I guessed wrong. Even the best 1hd is 1 slot only, and shields don't have slots at all. I think I should take a closer look at items outside of the polearm area  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Miley on February 07, 2012, 01:57:44 am
I mean Arbalest needed a buff, but not a total un-nerf. IMO throwing should've stayed nerfed. I got over 50% taken away in +3 Lamellar with a throwing axe.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Overdriven on February 07, 2012, 02:05:16 am
Throwing was completely useless. Still isn't all that great unless in very capable hands.

On a plus note...after playing my HA for a time again, the reduced amount of cavalry, and increased damage made it a lot more enjoyable again. Also nice to get into some HA fights with Jackie. Been a long time there  :)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Joker86 on February 07, 2012, 02:08:42 am
I would like to see the damage of throwing nerfed quite a bit, but accuracy and ammo increased, so that they can participate "longer" in fights, and their results are not that luck dependant.

On the other hand this would again increase the ranged spam, and I don't know if throwing should become a viable main class, even as hybrid it can get annoying easily. The more I think about it, the more limiting it to a sidearm for special cases seems the best solution to me.  :?
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 07, 2012, 02:09:27 am
I would like to see the damage of throwing nerfed quite a bit, but accuracy and ammo increased, so that they can participate "longer" in fights, and their results are not that luck dependant.

This would turn them too similar to bows though, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Joker86 on February 07, 2012, 02:15:18 am
This would turn them too similar to bows though, in my opinion.

Still lower range, lower accuracy, higher damage, higher rate of fire. Yes, more similar, but still not really comparable. Especially as you can keep a throwing weapon ready as long as you want, which moves them closer to crossbows than to bows again. It remains something special, which is good.

The problem with throwing is, that it's very effective on close range, and it is quick with high damage. In my eyes the only solution to balancing it properly is by item stats only (in difference to almost every other class which can be balanced by other things, too), and those stats are among the most difficult to balance I can imagine. I think with no other weapon you can feel UP or OP stats so well like with throwing weapons.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Overdriven on February 07, 2012, 02:19:47 am
I like this post:

In my opinion, throwing ought to be the hard counter for cavalry. It makes sense not only because it is historically accurate but it balances out the overall play field. Throwing should absolutely decimate horses, speed bonus + huge heavy ranged missile should = a very dead horse. Throwing was only a problem a year ago or so before slots were introduced and one could use throwing without any wpf. Those days are gone though and even before the latest patch there were very few throwers and even fewer throwers that invoked fear... Chucky and Chestaclese are the only two that come to mind.

I guess my point is that Crpg needs throwing to be stronger in order to balance out the current cavalry problem. Pikes are humorously ineffective because they require the cavalry to be unaware of an enormous stick waving about in the air. Pikes are cavalry deterrent. Archers used to fill this role, but now head shots are the only effective way to bring down anything. Throwing though... throwing has the potential to be an amazing cavalry counter in the right hands. It's like having a limited amount of pikes that you can throw and is balanced due to the small pool of ammunition available.

To be honest, I don't think you're trolling Smooth. I just think you have a completely biased, cry baby perspective. Throwing should ruin horses. It's not OP, it's a balancing measure. Especially against heavy cavalry. Currently, no one fills the roll of anti-cavalry and as I found out this generation as light cavalry; this lack of a counter leads to ridiculous feeling of invincibility from horseback. It doesn't matter if you're spending 100k on upkeep, the law of counters ought to apply to everyone.

Do you charge directly into spearmen who are aware of you? No? That seems balanced correct? Then why should you be able to charge directly at a thrower who's aware of your presence without risk of losing your horse and your life?

Pre-epic-throwing-nerf I used to be shit scared of throwers as a cav. They were the one class I knew could do some serious damage to my horse relatively easily. I'd stay away from them at all costs. Now they have to score a lucky headshot to do any real damage.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Dach on February 07, 2012, 02:42:24 am
I mean Arbalest needed a buff, but not a total un-nerf. IMO throwing should've stayed nerfed. I got over 50% taken away in +3 Lamellar with a throwing axe.

lamellar vest?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Turkhammer on February 07, 2012, 04:02:35 am
Why unnerf throwing and arbalest, whyyyy!

Because they made a mistake originally to over nerf them.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Zerran on February 07, 2012, 04:10:16 am
I don't think they needed to be rebuffed up as much as they were... but then I'm probably incredibly biased in the matter.  :P

On a more serious note, we need to get fewer random plains in the rotation. These weren't bad while archers were nerfed, but now they're murder zones. And can we do something about shotgunning? Getting hit by ranged at... well... range is ok, but getting hit while 5 feet away and unable to dodge is rather bullshit, in my biased opinion.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Rumblood on February 07, 2012, 04:20:55 am
This would turn them too similar to bows though, in my opinion.

I can headshot across the map with my bow. I'd like to see any throwing weapon do the same with any reliability.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Sergee on February 07, 2012, 06:19:45 am
triple loomed archers hit my triple loomed armor and str build for like 30 percent a shot. GG AGI BUILDS AND LIGHT ARMOR HAVE FUN
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Gristle on February 07, 2012, 06:27:33 am
Edit: forget what I said. You can. In theory. I just don't see them around any more. I thought only the two light crossbows were 1 slot, and together with a really good 1hd (2 slots) and a good shield (2slots) you couldn't equip everything. But I guessed wrong. Even the best 1hd is 1 slot only, and shields don't have slots at all. I think I should take a closer look at items outside of the polearm area  :rolleyes:

Shields have slots, but they aren't listed on the website. Crossbow, bolts, 1H weapon, 1 slot shield is still very playable, and was my build for all but my most recent generation. A Masterwork Crossbow is certainly no Arbalest when it comes to damage, but it's still a considerable threat that reloads fairly quickly.

I may switch back, but I'm enjoying the mobility from not having a shield right now. Even as a shieldless player, I am not finding other projectiles to be a problem, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Nehvar on February 07, 2012, 08:22:21 am
triple loomed archers hit my triple loomed armor and str build for like 30 percent a shot. GG AGI BUILDS AND LIGHT ARMOR HAVE FUN

I took a crossbow bolt to the chest in my triple-'loomed light(er) armor for seventy percent of my health (18/21) earlier today.  Some Rus bow archer was popping me for about 45% an arrow, too.  Yeah, it's pretty lame.  On those crappy wide-open maps that the official servers are packed with I rarely get to combat in one piece; often not at all.  It seems like such a waste of a unique melee combat system when you have all this ranged spam.

How are the full-strength plate-crutchers faring? 

Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Zerran on February 07, 2012, 08:49:49 am
I took a crossbow bolt to the chest in my triple-'loomed light(er) armor for seventy percent of my health (18/21) earlier today.  Some Rus bow archer was popping me for about 45% an arrow, too.  Yeah, it's pretty lame.  On those crappy wide-open maps that the official servers are packed with I rarely get to combat in one piece; often not at all.  It seems like such a waste of a unique melee combat system when you have all this ranged spam.

How are the full-strength plate-crutchers faring?

I'm not full plate but I've got rus scale with hourglass gauntlets (56 body armor total), and ranged hits me for about 1/3 my health on average. Had a longbow take out 60% of my health from a shotgun body hit.  :cry: I have nothing against archers, and they should be able to fight, but truth be told I really hate getting to the fight with most of my health gone from ranged. I can live with that though, it's their job, what I really can't stand is kiting shotgunning ranged.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 07, 2012, 08:56:35 am
need to learn how to dodge those flying missiles....
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: BlackMilk on February 07, 2012, 09:01:32 am
just nerf them again nobody wants archers to be good anyway
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Malaclypse on February 07, 2012, 09:06:31 am
OH GOD 36 BODY ARMOR INSUFFICIENT
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Smoothrich on February 07, 2012, 09:13:20 am
I agree, I thought things should've been tweaked up a bit, but not back to how they were before.  Enjoy being 2 shotted by MW rus bows with MW bodkins regardless of build and nearly 1 shotted by heavy throwing axes every map again.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: BlackMilk on February 07, 2012, 09:24:56 am
1 bolt just took 80% of my hp. I have 18 str 2 if and 57 body armor. Cool. Really fun.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Boerenlater on February 07, 2012, 09:27:59 am
33str 8if and 58body armor can take like 10 weak arrows/bolts now.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: mOus333 on February 07, 2012, 09:34:26 am
why, oh why those evil devs unnerf arbalest !? why oh why!! :evil:
But seriously , all maps was the cav fest, i luv kill ur poniez, itz the only joy in my life :twisted:
And fact iz , that we finnaly got some chance about cav/tincans !!!
LONG LIVE equus africanus asinus TEAM!!!!!
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Xtrah on February 07, 2012, 09:34:44 am
BUFF ALL THE RANGED
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 07, 2012, 09:53:35 am
if you guys play native you will notice the ranged damaged is pretty much the same as CRPG, but in CRPG you can increase power draw and such which can increase your damage
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Meow on February 07, 2012, 09:57:03 am
Is is still less than before.
The body damage is not back to prenerf / native values.

No one said this is the final tweak on it but as before you will have to deal with it for a while.
It's not like the cav spam was any better.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 07, 2012, 11:00:57 am
people who are whining about ranged probably is a melee user, they want ranged to be nerf because they just can't live with it lol. In medieval time people can die from just 1 arrow due to loss of blood and during those time ranged is the most powerful class. <<< Mongolian Horse Archer rules!


Is is still less than before.
The body damage is not back to prenerf / native values.
No one said this is the final tweak on it but as before you will have to deal with it for a while.

i see, my bad.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: mOus333 on February 07, 2012, 11:04:40 am
I play yesterday on eu1 and i 1shoot poniez,tincanz .. Its really not that hard to kill some1 whit arbalest.
Yez i know, aiming dancers head iz hard , but c'mon , cav got worse !! :twisted:
I dont undestand 1thing however, ranged get nerf when raining..
Where are the umbrellas!!??
Btw who play native when we got thiz stupid,unnbalanced mod !!!
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Kenji on February 07, 2012, 11:06:01 am
*wears full plate, rides champion plated charger, carries steel shield*

I can't tell if anything has changed! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Oggrinsky on February 07, 2012, 11:15:17 am
Yes, nerf ranged again so I can go lancer again... maybe this time heavy cav!
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on February 07, 2012, 11:17:14 am
only one day after patch and melee players start to cry and say about op and nerfs, silly kids...
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: a_bear_irl on February 07, 2012, 11:31:44 am
Is is still less than before.
The body damage is not back to prenerf / native values.

No one said this is the final tweak on it but as before you will have to deal with it for a while.
It's not like the cav spam was any better.

yes it was
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Leshma on February 07, 2012, 11:38:11 am
Devs, you forgot to nerf 2H.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Gristle on February 07, 2012, 12:11:31 pm
1 bolt just took 80% of my hp. I have 18 str 2 if and 57 body armor. Cool. Really fun.

So, you have 57 hit points (35 is the base, you can figure out the rest), with 57 armor. Sounds like you took an Arbalest shot to the chest. Yeah, they're hitting me for about that much too (50 hit points, 68 body armor), and I'm glad they're something to fear again. I'm pretty good at dodging. You better learn, too. You're armor doesn't offer much against 100 pierce.

I (barely) survived 2 PT10 javelins and a bolt today. I know one of the javs hit my arm, and the bolt must have hit my leg. On another life I survived a full speed lance to my side, which must have hit my arm. I had between 10% and 5% of my health left. I would say the patch is working as intended.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 07, 2012, 12:20:12 pm
DO WHILE $GAME="CRPG"
1. AARGH! ARCHERS! THEY HAVE RUINED THE GAME! NERF THEM!
2. AARGH! CAVALRY BUTTLANCING! THEY HAVE RUINED THE GAME! NERF THEM!
END
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 07, 2012, 12:36:19 pm
So, you have 57 hit points (35 is the base, you can figure out the rest), with 57 armor. Sounds like you took an Arbalest shot to the chest. Yeah, they're hitting me for about that much too (50 hit points, 68 body armor), and I'm glad they're something to fear again. I'm pretty good at dodging. You better learn, too. You're armor doesn't offer much against 100 pierce.

I (barely) survived 2 PT10 javelins and a bolt today. I know one of the javs hit my arm, and the bolt must have hit my leg. On another life I survived a full speed lance to my side, which must have hit my arm. I had between 10% and 5% of my health left. I would say the patch is working as intended.

Indeed, if you have 57 hp and 57 armor, if the bolt damage is 95. then 56 - 38 = 18, which means you will have 18 hp left so it seems fair to be honest :D
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: TheNeX on February 07, 2012, 01:02:58 pm
I honestly dont understand much of the complaining about archery.

I might still be gen1, and by all means a noob, but as an archer, it takes me from 6 to 12 shots to take down the average player. This with bodkin + horn. When i cant afford bodkin (which for some reason break down EVERY SINGLE ******* TIME IM KILLED) and i use barbed or even worse, normal arrows, i just go for the headshot.

This, on foot, on horse the damage SEEMS a little better, but the random aim balance that out, at least i can annoy the shit out of everyone. This when my palfrey is not slower than a loomed cataphract  :rolleyes:

Yesterday, out of frustration, i took my short spear, my palfrey and went lancer for a couple of maps. I did twice the kills i do normally, while hitting far less. This with an archer build, 0 ps 0 wp.
Guess who i looked for easy kills ? Yay, archers, basically all that i killed was using a bow  :lol:

My point is : killing as an archer, is really tough : shielders you cant kill if they are not dumb, 2handers will probably catch you before you take them down, unless you luck out with an hs, cavarly with cataphract or heavy horse wont go down. You are basically farming kills on peasant / ranged / shooting in the back. The only situation we are any good at, its with position and numbers.

ofc, looms and higher lvl (im 30) change the balance a little, but even the VERY good archers i saw on the servers (robin_hood for one) i dont see laying distruction and death around em, like say, a good glaive user or a good lancer.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: MrShine on February 07, 2012, 03:24:22 pm
Ranged is buffed compared to V.261, but it is still nerfed compared to V.260, or so I hear.  The last version was too great a nerf for all ranged and completely screwed with proper balance of throwing, slow xbows, bows etc.   I haven't gotten around to looking at comparisons  to the last version yet but I'm going to see how many fewer arrows will be needed by my 4 PD STF dewd.  Then maybe I'll make a high PD STF alt to further test.

I took 3 arrows to the body point blank from a longbowmen in duel yesterday... that seems pretty damn reasonable in my 52 body armor 64 hp.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Miracle on February 07, 2012, 03:24:43 pm
I honestly dont understand much of the complaining about archery.

I might still be gen1, and by all means a noob, but as an archer, it takes me from 6 to 12 shots to take down the average player. This with bodkin + horn. When i cant afford bodkin (which for some reason break down EVERY SINGLE ******* TIME IM KILLED) and i use barbed or even worse, normal arrows, i just go for the headshot.

This, on foot, on horse the damage SEEMS a little better, but the random aim balance that out, at least i can annoy the shit out of everyone. This when my palfrey is not slower than a loomed cataphract  :rolleyes:

Yesterday, out of frustration, i took my short spear, my palfrey and went lancer for a couple of maps. I did twice the kills i do normally, while hitting far less. This with an archer build, 0 ps 0 wp.
Guess who i looked for easy kills ? Yay, archers, basically all that i killed was using a bow  :lol:

My point is : killing as an archer, is really tough : shielders you cant kill if they are not dumb, 2handers will probably catch you before you take them down, unless you luck out with an hs, cavarly with cataphract or heavy horse wont go down. You are basically farming kills on peasant / ranged / shooting in the back. The only situation we are any good at, its with position and numbers.

ofc, looms and higher lvl (im 30) change the balance a little, but even the VERY good archers i saw on the servers (robin_hood for one) i dont see laying distruction and death around em, like say, a good glaive user or a good lancer.
It also seems you're a hybrid which takes away from the damage.  Pure archers will always hit harder than hybrid archers.

Ranged is buffed compared to V.261, but it is still nerfed compared to V.260, or so I hear.  The last version was too great a nerf for all ranged and completely screwed with proper balance of throwing, slow xbows, bows etc.   I haven't gotten around to looking at comparisons  to the last version yet but I'm going to see how many fewer arrows will be needed by my 4 PD STF dewd.  Then maybe I'll make a high PD STF alt to further test.

I took 3 arrows to the body point blank from a longbowmen in duel yesterday... that seems pretty damn reasonable in my 52 body armor 64 hp.
I'd be willing to go into duel to test this.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 07, 2012, 03:27:35 pm
Ranged is buffed compared to V.261, but it is still nerfed compared to V.260, or so I hear.  The last version was too great a nerf for all ranged and completely screwed with proper balance of throwing, slow xbows, bows etc.   I haven't gotten around to looking at comparisons  to the last version yet but I'm going to see how many fewer arrows will be needed by my 4 PD STF dewd.  Then maybe I'll make a high PD STF alt to further test.

I took 3 arrows to the body point blank from a longbowmen in duel yesterday... that seems pretty damn reasonable in my 52 body armor 64 hp.

Oh yes please do MrShine so that those melee users can stop wining  8-)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Spawny on February 07, 2012, 04:05:51 pm
It also seems you're a hybrid which takes away from the damage.  Pure archers will always hit harder than hybrid archers.
I'd be willing to go into duel to test this.

I'm thinking he's a horse archer.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: TheNeX on February 07, 2012, 04:15:06 pm
It also seems you're a hybrid which takes away from the damage.  Pure archers will always hit harder than hybrid archers.

Yes i am.

When i started, 3 weeks ago, i didnt have a clear idea and i settled for a compromise. I got 6 pd and 154 archery. Still at level 30, i would like to kill a shirt peasant with less than 3-4 hits:/

I mean, i kill a peasant with about 2 strikes from my spear, with no proficiency :/

Quote from: Spawny

I'm thinking he's a horse archer.

Im both. 5 riding/3 HA 6PD 6ath. Bad idea i know, but i know now, i didnt know back then =)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: farthammer on February 07, 2012, 04:46:57 pm
chadz pls nerf all melee classes fist only pugilism 4 lyf.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 07, 2012, 05:50:30 pm
And we have all over again after little buff of ranged. That's preety sad. :(

I think that many players who are whining about ranged are just agi guys with light armors and low hp, because they don't have IF.

I'm using MW longbow and MW tatar arrows what give me 40 cut dmg. I have also 7 PD and i'm killing medium armoured guys in about 3 shots, and i think it's good compare to time taken to draw my bow.

I can oneshot somebody if he is a real pesant, killing ninjas takes 2 arrows. Tincans can survive 5 shots or more. I think that's a good deal, because I'm almost always dead after one hit from melee or cav.

In my opinion this little buff for range will decrease a little bit amount of cav on maps, because now they have to think to keep their horse alive to the end of round.
Now they just can't make a open charge a group of rangers on light horses and laught that archers almost can't kill their horses.  8-)

Last thing is Shoutgun shots. Whining about that is stupid. Melee want's to dodge a shot from 3-5 meters?????!!!! I'm asking why and how it could be possible??? To dodge any missle from close range u shoud move like Neo form Matrix.... We are in C-RPG, not in Matrix.

I have a simple tips for melee if they want to survive longer:
1) learn to dodge (it's not so hard at all)
2) take a shield (arena shields with no shiels skill can save u from few arrows or bolts)

If u want to survive more shots:
1) Invest some points to IF
2) Get better armor

Happy whining :)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Dravic on February 07, 2012, 06:13:29 pm
As to the topic:

They unnerfed ranged so I can become a shotgun character.

Lock the topic.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Erzengel on February 07, 2012, 06:40:00 pm
Nice idea to go for STR builds and more armor. The only problem is that this will make it even easier for archers to run away and shoot you...
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Lichen on February 07, 2012, 06:41:40 pm
I think archery damage was actually close to perfect before the un-nerf. Sure at first it seemed like a super nerf but the GOOD archers still did well. Isn't that what the goal was? To make archery more skill dependent in order to make it harder and not so easy? The currently increased damage isn't really a problem for melee if the archers aren't very skilled but for skilled archers (of which there are many) melee really have very little chance. I have an archer alt and I don't really enjoy taking down helpless foes with such ease. Wearing armor should mean something. I don't know what the new damage values are but if the old one was 67% damage for body hits I would say try 77% and try that for a while because whatever it is now, I think it's too high in my experience. You shouldn't be able to take out heavy armored guys with horn,tartar and nomad bows on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Dravic on February 07, 2012, 06:47:48 pm
You're right Lichen, let's give heavy armors a God mode.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Lichen on February 07, 2012, 06:49:35 pm
You're right Lichen, let's give heavy armors a God mode.
Rus and long bow remember? Those 2 should be the ones to use against heavy armor.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 07, 2012, 07:03:15 pm
Rus and long bow remember? Those 2 should be the ones to use against heavy armor.

I think it's a good idea, but there will be still one problem: where will be a border between heavy and no heavy armor?
If it willbe from Plate Armor up i'm for it. It would be nice to see many plated guys fighting each other :)

The only solution for 5PD bow users to kill a plated guy will be a headshot or two, because putting a half quiver of arrows in body to kill him won't be nice :)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Lordark on February 07, 2012, 07:03:20 pm
Can devs make it so that 50% of thrown cant be picked back up again? Like just say its stuck too deep into something that it cant be easily taken back out due to said throwers amazing power throw???
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Zerran on February 07, 2012, 07:13:39 pm
Nice idea to go for STR builds and more armor. The only problem is that this will make it even easier for archers to run away and shoot you...

And this right here is the big problem. You can choose light armor and agi so you can actually chase the ranged, but then they just 1-2 shot you. Alternatively you an go heavy armor strength and survive 4 or so shots, but then you have literally no way to fight back against a kiting archer. Cav are the only ones that can really effectively take out archers, but thanks to shotgunning this can be difficult even for them, so they tend to just go after unaware melee instead.

Archer damage isn't the real problem imo, it's the fact that they still can't be reached if they just run. Make having a bow drastically reduce movement speed and make ranged deal less damage under a certain range.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Kafein on February 07, 2012, 07:20:02 pm
And this right here is the big problem. You can choose light armor and agi so you can actually chase the ranged, but then they just 1-2 shot you. Alternatively you an go heavy armor strength and survive 4 or so shots, but then you have literally no way to fight back against a kiting archer. Cav are the only ones that can really effectively take out archers, but thanks to shotgunning this can be difficult even for them, so they tend to just go after unaware melee instead.

Archer damage isn't the real problem imo, it's the fact that they still can't be reached if they just run. Make having a bow drastically reduce movement speed and make ranged deal less damage under a certain range.

Ranged tend to be difficult to kill as cav because good ones usually never stand in easily reachable positions for enemy cav, and if they see the cav first, ranged can still dodge anything the cav tries fairly easily, delaying the fight and putting quite a few arrows in the horse while support is coming. The only relatively effective tactic against well placed (defended) ranged is hit (or miss) & run, but that kills the horse quite fast.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 07, 2012, 07:33:35 pm

Archer damage isn't the real problem imo, it's the fact that they still can't be reached if they just run.

You should remember that running is a standard defence for archers against melee. That's normal that archers run, if you want to catch archer - become a high athletic guy and move smart on battleground to get archers from back. You can also take a shield and don't let archers to shoot your temmates by defending them or going after archers and disturb them to shoot. You won't make kills but your team can win a round and give you a multi. Archers were, are, and will be annoying until they are able to shoot.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Phew on February 07, 2012, 07:33:57 pm
Archer damage isn't the real problem imo, it's the fact that they still can't be reached if they just run. Make having a bow drastically reduce movement speed and make ranged deal less damage under a certain range.

QFT. Archer damage was never a problem, but the fact that they can just scurry away from harm any time they want is maddening to melee players. Archers should require melee protecting them in order to be effective, which is how it worked historically.

I say let archers do plenty of damage, but reduce movement speed by 50% within 10 seconds of firing a bow.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Rebelyell on February 07, 2012, 07:35:42 pm
remmove arrows, make bows thrust atack onlly with 7 blunt damange and peps will still whining,

Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Penitent on February 07, 2012, 07:39:18 pm
Well, limb shots do less damage now, so it wasn't a complete un-nerf.

Also, GOOD archers will do well no matter what.  Average archers should be able to play averagely.  The last nerf didn't allow this.  Average archers were doing terrible.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Anal Bleeding on February 07, 2012, 07:42:52 pm
shields don't take slots? wtf
when did this happen
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Camaris on February 07, 2012, 07:53:02 pm
archers tell you to take cheap shields that make you slower and won´t protect you at all.
As 2hander those shield you can take are bullshit and if you take them you cant get archers anymore :)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: MrShine on February 07, 2012, 08:00:10 pm
QFT. Archer damage was never a problem, but the fact that they can just scurry away from harm any time they want is maddening to melee players. Archers should require melee protecting them in order to be effective, which is how it worked historically.

I say let archers do plenty of damage, but reduce movement speed by 50% within 10 seconds of firing a bow.

The archers that are 2-3 shotting people consistently (and I question 'consistently 2 shotting') are not the ones that can run away.  The ones that can run away will probably average 4-6 (dunno with new patch) shots to kill medium (50-60 hp) infantry.

You already have the damaging slow archers and the fast guys who hurt less; it's hard to have the best of both worlds unless you have an archer with looms who is leveling past 30. 

Hard hitting dedicated archer:
 
(click to show/hide)

Dedicated "running" archer
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Leshma on February 07, 2012, 08:29:41 pm
remmove arrows, make bows thrust atack onlly with 7 blunt damange and peps will still whining,

What happened to Templars? All of a sudden you guys have almost the same amount of ranged players as Fallen Brigade. Not just that, you lobby for ranged buffs harder than Fallen archers.

If I recall right, Templar clan didn't allow archers in their ranks before. Now every second dude with Templar tag has ranged weapon in his hands...
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 07, 2012, 09:04:42 pm
Templars always had a lack of ranged guys.
And those opinons on forums are not opinion of whole clan, but only some persons. All what I and RebelYell write here is not for buffing, but to show ppl that ranged guys should have a equal chances to fight like other classes. Some are better against others, and there won't be a total balance, it's just impossible.

Leshma if u will read all my posts you should notice that i'm not whining, but trying to find solution of problem. I also gave some tips for other players too, and try to show other players that a life of range guy is not so easy as they think and i know other players  agree with me.

Anyway that what i'm writing on this forum is MY opinion, not Templars.

I'm playing an archer from begining, i'm gen 4 now and i'll probably never change class because i just love to play with an archer. :D
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Rebelyell on February 07, 2012, 10:09:56 pm
What happened to Templars? All of a sudden you guys have almost the same amount of ranged players as Fallen Brigade. Not just that, you lobby for ranged buffs harder than Fallen archers.

If I recall right, Templar clan didn't allow archers in their ranks before. Now every second dude with Templar tag has ranged weapon in his hands...

Most of them are alts or 1 gen trip.

btw
awesome awatar
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Phew on February 07, 2012, 10:47:43 pm
The archers that are 2-3 shotting people consistently (and I question 'consistently 2 shotting') are not the ones that can run away.  The ones that can run away will probably average 4-6 (dunno with new patch) shots to kill medium (50-60 hp) infantry.

You already have the damaging slow archers and the fast guys who hurt less; it's hard to have the best of both worlds unless you have an archer with looms who is leveling past 30. 

Because archers generally wear such light gear, an archer with 15 agi/5 ath can still run away from most melee. "Relative Run Speed" is roughly equal to Athletics+Agi/6-weight/7. So a 24/15 archer spec has a "Relative Run Speed" of 5.5, whereas your typical 21/15 shielder in medium armor has a "Relative Run Speed" of about 4.5.

Should a melee guy have to have 7+ athletics and/or wear cloth just to keep up with a heavy archer in a footrace?
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Rebelyell on February 07, 2012, 10:51:09 pm
so what do  you want another nerf???

if you are here just to make rumor

gfys
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: bredeus on February 07, 2012, 10:57:09 pm
What happened to Templars? All of a sudden you guys have almost the same amount of ranged players as Fallen Brigade. Not just that, you lobby for ranged buffs harder than Fallen archers.

If I recall right, Templar clan didn't allow archers in their ranks before. Now every second dude with Templar tag has ranged weapon in his hands...
Archery was never forbidden ( the Pope Asdimanus the first was in fact an archer). We had archers in the past had them now. Sorry for an offtop just a short history review.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 07, 2012, 11:00:50 pm
What happened to Templars? All of a sudden you guys have almost the same amount of ranged players as Fallen Brigade.

Fallen have substantially less range then we used to. Our reputation has outlived us.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: MrShine on February 07, 2012, 11:36:55 pm
Because archers generally wear such light gear, an archer with 15 agi/5 ath can still run away from most melee. "Relative Run Speed" is roughly equal to Athletics+Agi/6-weight/7. So a 24/15 archer spec has a "Relative Run Speed" of 5.5, whereas your typical 21/15 shielder in medium armor has a "Relative Run Speed" of about 4.5.

Should a melee guy have to have 7+ athletics and/or wear cloth just to keep up with a heavy archer in a footrace?

Well, if melee could always catch archers that would be a problem.  Archers SHOULD usually be faster, otherwise archers will just get run over if a melee horde comes through. 

But the dedicated heavy hitting 24/18 build I provided has 3 athletics... I'm pretty sure most melee can catch that even in medium-heavy armor. 
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: PieParadox on February 08, 2012, 03:31:58 am
Slightly off topic, but I think 1h really needs a buff. I think that 1h, due to their low damage, low weight (weapon stun), low reach (prone to kicks), and stats to be put in shield make them the weakest melee class. 2h and pole have every advantage over a 1h, not limited to huge axe breakers, hiltslash, or stab exploiting (and god do I hate when 1h stab bounces).

Their shield weight should be decreased so that they aren't slow turtles anymore and so they can catch archers. I personally think a hoplite is much better at catching archers, as polestagger along with greater reach stops archers in their tracks, not to mention that the hoplite can also use polearms like the longspear.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: SixThumbs on February 08, 2012, 06:12:09 am
The only thing I really agree with is the 1h stab as I've countlessly glanced off people moving away from me, even doing the silly "swing-stab" motion. Other then that I see the class as more of a wedge/formation breaker then anything else and they're effective enough against other classes 1v1.

Being as they're smaller weapons I would expect them to weigh and do less damage overall at the expense of blocking multiple attacks and ranged weapons. You can avoid kicks by starting to strafe either the left or right as you get too close.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 08, 2012, 10:51:58 am
I am using materwork arbalest and shoot 1 masterwork steel bolt into a peasant archer, and he surrvive lol
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 08, 2012, 03:29:47 pm
maybe you just hit his arm or leg...
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Arrowblood on February 08, 2012, 03:33:31 pm
I am using materwork arbalest and shoot 1 masterwork steel bolt into a peasant archer, and he surrvive lol
u reached gen 7 in 3 month?
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Gurnisson on February 08, 2012, 03:38:28 pm
The archers that are 2-3 shotting people consistently (and I question 'consistently 2 shotting') are not the ones that can run away.  The ones that can run away will probably average 4-6 (dunno with new patch) shots to kill medium (50-60 hp) infantry.

bagge 2-3 shoots me consistenly me and runs like the wind with his 18/24 build. 54 body armour, 21 strength, 5 ironflesh. I seriously don't think that those builds should 2-shoot medium to heavy infantry. 9 PD and 10 PD build should be the only ones capable of it since their movement is somewhat limited, but alas, it ain't like that. 6 PD builds should hit hard but not as hard as now, but should have great kiting abilities like they do have now. You easily get both the damage and movement nowadays which is a bit bad.

Slightly off topic, but I think 1h really needs a buff. I think that 1h, due to their low damage, low weight (weapon stun), low reach (prone to kicks), and stats to be put in shield make them the weakest melee class. 2h and pole have every advantage over a 1h, not limited to huge axe breakers, hiltslash, or stab exploiting (and god do I hate when 1h stab bounces).

Great animations where all directions are very good and serves it's own role. Best knockdown weapons by far too, best protection and very viable hybrided with throwing. I think 1Hs is the best infantry class myself.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Oberyn on February 08, 2012, 04:10:56 pm
if you guys play native you will notice the ranged damaged is pretty much the same as CRPG, but in CRPG you can increase power draw and such which can increase your damage

You should take your own advice and play some native. I didn't notice cRPG was back to the cybernetic reloading repeating xbows and laser accurate bolt rifles (bows) that native has.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: _Tak_ on February 08, 2012, 04:15:16 pm
u reached gen 7 in 3 month?

Indeed, still gen 6 and soon be gen 7. If i don't have to go to college I be gen 12 right now, and yes i have life so my progress is a bit slow



You should take your own advice and play some native. I didn't notice cRPG was back to the cybernetic reloading repeating xbows and laser accurate bolt rifles (bows) that native has.

I have played native for more than 1 year and half. Spend few months on PW and most other time on native. Few months on my mod Extra invasion imao.

Quote
cybernetic reloading repeating xbows and laser accurate bolt rifles (bows)

Thats from my mod, its called Legendary Repeating Crossbow, the idea of this crossbow come from this:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Renten on February 08, 2012, 09:55:50 pm
As far as throwers go, anyone with 10 in PT/PS/PD is going to hurt a lot even in 50+ armor. Looking at the damage calculator it seems they would all do equal damage, although if you MW both a longbow and bodkins you'd be more effective investment wise. Is PD limited at 9 or 10? I expect to be 3 shot by anything but people who aren't near their full build now days.
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: duurrr on February 09, 2012, 02:27:25 am
na1 has 30 people on prime time

gg

siege time i guess
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Meow on February 09, 2012, 02:46:33 am
Or just open your eyes and join the other battle server that is up and running ;)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: duurrr on February 09, 2012, 04:30:20 am
oh another server would explain it

i use favorites so i had no idea ;)
Title: Re: Why Un-nerf!?
Post by: Meow on February 09, 2012, 12:39:56 pm
Well then i am happy i was able to open your eyes :mrgreen: