cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Malaclypse on February 03, 2012, 06:08:10 pm

Title: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 03, 2012, 06:08:10 pm
The Spear, a 135 reach little dynamo that people rarely use, which might be in part because of it's lack of rearing ability. I for one would like to see that ability reinstated for this fairly underwhelming weapon. If not in full, then at least while using the spear in hoplite mode with a shield. The additional range for holding the Spear in this way makes it longer than the War Spear without a shield, and that can rear ponies fine and dandy, no shield needed.

Marathon's contribution on page 3:

 
Going to vouch. Something's off. We did some testing and I recorded it.
Everything shorter than warspear  <150 isn't rearing to my knowledge
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vj7unr8OAA
Malaclypse's sweet sweet voice

I back up when thrusting so I don't murder the horse in one shot with speed bonus.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Vexus on February 03, 2012, 06:25:46 pm
Not only that, it should be made 1 slot too as currently why should you use it over the red tassel?
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: B3RS3RK on February 03, 2012, 06:27:12 pm
eh?

The Spear can stil rear horses.

I did that all the time when I used it like 1 week ago.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Overdriven on February 03, 2012, 06:59:04 pm
eh?

The Spear can stil rear horses.

I did that all the time when I used it like 1 week ago.

Really? Because the war spear can't...wouldn't make sense for the spear to be able to. At least not when I use it. That's why I have the ashwood pike if I'm in a horse killing mood.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 03, 2012, 07:11:53 pm
I haven't reared a single horse with the regular Spear, even multiple times when I tested it with people in teamspeak. Feels bad man. I guess I don't know exactly what determines horse rear, if riding skill has to do with it, but I've landed what should be successful rears against everything from Sumpter to Charger only to be trampled underhoove.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: _Tak_ on February 03, 2012, 07:19:38 pm
You can rear horses like rouncey and sumpter, but not destier and heavy horses due to low damage, unless masterwork
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 03, 2012, 07:30:28 pm
I have a +3 Spear right now, and it hasn't reared a single horseeee. Just tried it on three separate rouncey's, perfect head on attacks and they plowed through me. If it's supposed to work on lower tier horses it isn't working. This is with 7 Powerstrike if that makes a difference at all.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Zerran on February 03, 2012, 08:53:21 pm
As far as I'm aware, horse rearing is tied directly to the polearm skill, though I could be wrong. Don't see why they would put the effort in to remove it from some weapons. I'll try it later when i'm on.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: _Tak_ on February 03, 2012, 08:57:14 pm
As far as I'm aware, horse rearing is tied directly to the polearm skill, though I could be wrong. Don't see why they would put the effort in to remove it from some weapons. I'll try it later when i'm on.

if you have 0 wps in spear, it will never rear any horse
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Mala on February 03, 2012, 08:58:50 pm
Hmm, back then on the battle server i have used warspear and spear as backup (so low wpf) and it worked quite well against horses.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 03, 2012, 09:10:38 pm
Yeah, War Spear rears fine with base WPF, no weapon master. Have 107 prof in polearms with the Spear, with only 4 point loss from armor according to the calculator. There was a really old post I necrobumped where NH_Diggles was talking about how frustrated a clan mate of his was, not being able to rear with the Spear, this was months ago.

I'd say as an alternative to adding it back, make the Spear 1 slot. Unless the problem actually is my proficiency, and I need WM to actually utilize the effect, which would be strange considering I can use a pike with no prof and rear all day.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on February 03, 2012, 09:33:11 pm
As far as I'm aware, horse rearing is tied directly to the polearm skill, though I could be wrong. Don't see why they would put the effort in to remove it from some weapons. I'll try it later when i'm on.
AFAIK its tied to animation, so every poleram thrust - including 2h scondary mode - rears horses.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Wraist on February 04, 2012, 12:34:19 am
AFAIK its tied to animation, so every poleram thrust - including 2h scondary mode - rears horses.

Shortened spear and flamberge don't rear horses. I haven't tried with the langes either, but I doubt it would
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Memento_Mori on February 04, 2012, 02:43:47 pm
afaik devs did a ninja nerf on some of the pole arms to stop them from rearing horsies, people complained about being reared by a long maul (and other silliness that doesn't seem like a huge deal.) Could be possible they ninja nerfed the spear as well on accident?
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 04, 2012, 08:39:17 pm
AFAIK its tied to animation, so every poleram thrust - including 2h scondary mode - rears horses.
They removed it from a lot of polearms. Now it is only selected polearms that can rear horses. Pikes, halberds and war spear can, but not Long Axe, Spear, shortened spear and the maces and the like. I'd make a list, but not right now.

Shortened spear and flamberge don't rear horses. I haven't tried with the langes either, but I doubt it would
Shortened spear is one of the poelarms that don't rear horses. Flamberge uses 2handed wpf and thus can NEVER rear a horse. The Langes Messer's secondary function is 2handed and thus would never rear a horse.

You can rear horses like rouncey and sumpter, but not destier and heavy horses due to low damage, unless masterwork
if you have 0 wps in spear, it will never rear any horse
Wrong on BOTH accounts. Stop typing this bullshit constantly. It's annoying and you are spreading false information.

As I posted somewhere else,you rear a horse if you meet the following criteria.
There is NO random chance about horse rearing! No magical roll of the die or anything. If you meet the criteria, you rear the horse.

All weapons that can rear horses are using Polearm wpf. This also includes the secondary function of some 2handed weapons. I haven't tested the secondary function rearing ability since the latest patches, but most of them did when I last checked.

Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: BADPLAYERold on February 04, 2012, 09:45:51 pm
  • You do a stab with a polearm that can rear horse.
  • You actually do some damage.
  • You hit the head of the horse (part of the neck works too, even from the side)
There is NO random chance about horse rearing! No magical roll of the die or anything. If you meet the criteria, you rear the horse.

The attack doesn't actually even have to damage the horse, many many many times my horse has been reared by complete glances that do 0 damage from pointblank.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: cmp on February 04, 2012, 10:04:31 pm
They removed it from a lot of polearms. Now it is only selected polearms that can rear horses. Pikes, halberds and war spear can, but not Long Axe, Spear, shortened spear and the maces and the like. I'd make a list, but not right now.

Let me help you. List of polearms that had their rearing ability changed from Native:
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 04, 2012, 10:18:35 pm
Let me help you. List of polearms that had their rearing ability changed from Native:

I didn't think this was true, I mean, I definitely thought the regular Spear had horse-rearing abilities in Native. So I just got a buddy of mine to test it out with me on the KoA Native TDM server, and sure enough, the Spear rears there. I used the Sarranid regular Spear as that was the faction available to me and there were others in there, not sure if it's any different from the one the Rhodoks use by the same name, but I don't think so.

So what am I missing? I have honestly stabbed dozens of horses on cRPG, both in battle and in control environments, and the Spear doesn't rear, so it's either not really the same Spear, or it has been altered.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 10:26:01 pm
Let me help you. List of polearms that had their rearing ability changed from Native:

Quite impressive list.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: cmp on February 04, 2012, 10:34:25 pm
I didn't think this was true

Let me rephrase. List of polearms that don't rear horses:
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: isatis on February 04, 2012, 10:43:46 pm
Let me rephrase. List of polearms that don't rear horses:

even the no stabbing pole  :rolleyes:

guess i gonna try mah great lance to stop horsy now!  :D


on a sidenote: I can stop horse with spear like normal people can
maybe you hit the leg of horse, or maybe it's just some crazyness with your comp/ping
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 04, 2012, 11:05:06 pm
Let me rephrase. List of polearms that don't rear horses:
Ok. Then I take back what I said earlier and ask why some polearms sometimes don't rear horses even if you stab and hit the head.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 04, 2012, 11:32:02 pm
@cmpx: Is your rephrasing suggesting that all polearms in cRPG have the ability to rear ponies? I'm sorry, your responses are kind of short so I'm not exactly sure if there's a subtext I'm not understanding.

Just tested this on NA_3 with a friend who was kind enough to help. We managed to get some decent quality fraps with a few jitters of successful rear with War Spear, and failure to rear with Spear and Shortened Spear. They're pretty big files and would take some cutting of unneeded footage (it's my first time ever using a video recording program on a PC so I wasn't even really sure it was recording properly), but I could do it and upload it to Youtube or something if there's an interest. I've been playing Warband since it was released and I like to think I understand how to rear ponies and can do it reliably on War Spear, Pike, as well as with Spear in Native.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Mala on February 04, 2012, 11:38:46 pm
The op could be right.
I have tried to test the spears at the battleserver. With the war spear is was no problem, hit a hors at the front and it stopped.
But it never did if i have used a common spear.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 04, 2012, 11:49:43 pm
@cmpx: Is your rephrasing suggesting that all polearms in cRPG have the ability to rear ponies? I'm sorry, your responses are kind of short so I'm not exactly sure if there's a subtext I'm not understanding.

Just tested this on NA_3 with a friend who was kind enough to help. We managed to get some decent quality fraps with a few jitters of successful rear with War Spear, and failure to rear with Spear and Shortened Spear. They're pretty big files and would take some cutting of unneeded footage (it's my first time ever using a video recording program on a PC so I wasn't even really sure it was recording properly), but I could do it and upload it to Youtube or something if there's an interest. I've been playing Warband since it was released and I like to think I understand how to rear ponies and can do it reliably on War Spear, Pike, as well as with Spear in Native.
Please upload the video. Would be nice if you edited it, but if that's a problem then just upload it raw.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: cmp on February 05, 2012, 12:16:37 am
@cmpx: Is your rephrasing suggesting that all polearms in cRPG have the ability to rear ponies? I'm sorry, your responses are kind of short so I'm not exactly sure if there's a subtext I'm not understanding.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can even give you more details; in order for a horse to be reared, the following must be true:
- the attacker must be unmounted
- the attack must be a thrust
- the attacker's weapon must be of type polearm
- the receiving horse must have a forward speed of at least 4 m/s
- the attacker must be in the front of the horse (120º cone starting from the horse's "center")
- the priority of the animation being currently played by the horse must be less than 74 (riding has a priority of 0, jumping has a priority of 2, etc...)

If all of the above are true, the horse will rear.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 05, 2012, 03:39:58 am
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can even give you more details; in order for a horse to be reared, the following must be true:
- the attacker must be unmounted
- the attack must be a thrust
- the attacker's weapon must be of type polearm
- the receiving horse must have a forward speed of at least 4 m/s
- the attacker must be in the front of the horse (120º cone starting from the horse's "center")
- the priority of the animation being currently played by the horse must be less than 74 (riding has a priority of 0, jumping has a priority of 2, etc...)

If all of the above are true, the horse will rear.

Thank you for clearer information cmpx. The only parts I don't fully understand are the meter/second (just not sure how to measure it), and how (or if) an animation played by a horse could ever be more than 74 priority. What comes after the etc?

In battle I've had the chance to attempt a rear on horses of varying speed, and in the video I'll post here I feel like the speed of movement of the horse is nearly identical for the War Spear's successful rear as it was for the Spear attempts. Anyhow it's not especially scientific, and is the best of the first batch of tests I recorded. It's been slightly cut of excess superfluous scenes, and contains 4 separate attempts, the first two with Spear, the third with War Spear, and the fourth with Shortened Spear. I tried to make it clear by setting the items down and hovering over them, though the quality is kind of poor, sorry for that.

(click to show/hide)

Thanks to Septim for helping in those with a STF rider.

We ran some further attempts later but those videos suffered from such horrible recording issues as to be useless, no discerning horse speed at all; just from the experience Winterly and I had, and what others in the duel server were acknowledging, we were unable to rear a Rouncey with Spear, Shortened Spear, and Military Fork. We were successful with War Spear, and also a random Fauchard laying around, as expected. The ponies we tested on were all riding at a moderate speed, fast enough to knock me over in most cases, though in the video you'll see a very slow moving horse get reared successfully by the War Spear, and that was by far our slowest attempt. In the majority of them we just had the rider be a passive third party, not attacking or blocking (though he does block in the second segment of the video above). It could be that we messed up, but it seems unlikely that we would do so dozens of times in a controlled setting. If all polearms are supposed to be able to rear ponies, and weren't intentionally changed, then I guess this could qualify as a bug?
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 05, 2012, 03:45:47 am
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can even give you more details; in order for a horse to be reared, the following must be true:
- the attacker must be unmounted
- the attack must be a thrust
- the attacker's weapon must be of type polearm
- the receiving horse must have a forward speed of at least 4 m/s
- the attacker must be in the front of the horse (120º cone starting from the horse's "center")
- the priority of the animation being currently played by the horse must be less than 74 (riding has a priority of 0, jumping has a priority of 2, etc...)

If all of the above are true, the horse will rear.
That list is going STRAIGHT to the wiki! You really ought to give these lists a bit more often :D Thanks!
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Uumdi on February 05, 2012, 04:00:21 am
Yeah sucks that spear caught the nerf, man.  Thats what it should be for, anticav.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: _Tak_ on February 05, 2012, 04:04:53 am
spears shouldn't rear horses like warhorse due to low damage, i have alot of riding so my horse become much stronger
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 05, 2012, 04:18:20 am
spears shouldn't rear horses like warhorse due to low damage, i have alot of riding so my horse become much stronger

Spear has higher pierce damage than Trident/Pitchfork, which I believe rear ponies; aside from that damage is more determined by Power Strike, so I could do more damage with Spear than someone else does with Pike, it's all relative- consider also that in most cases there will be even more increased damage due to the speed bonus applied; not that damage matters as a determinant of rearing, right? Also I don't think Riding skill makes your horse more hardy, but I guess I don't really know.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 05:36:35 am
spears shouldn't rear horses like warhorse due to low damage, i have alot of riding so my horse become much stronger

This post makes no sense.

Spears have some very nice pierce damage, please check stats before posting. Also, riding doesn't give your horse armor.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: dodnet on February 05, 2012, 08:47:51 am
In the video it looks like you get hit by the horse before you can hit the horse. So maybe the spear is just too short. That would explain why you could rear the horse when its slower.

Its also about timing probably. During the first part of the thrusting animation you wont do any damage. It sometimes happens to me with long spear when I release the thrust too late. The long spear goes half into the horse without doing anything and I get hit by the horse/the lance of the rider. Its only working after like 2/3 of the animation.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Voso on February 05, 2012, 10:20:10 am
In the video it looks like you get hit by the horse before you can hit the horse. So maybe the spear is just too short. That would explain why you could rear the horse when its slower.

Its also about timing probably. During the first part of the thrusting animation you wont do any damage. It sometimes happens to me with long spear when I release the thrust too late. The long spear goes half into the horse without doing anything and I get hit by the horse/the lance of the rider. Its only working after like 2/3 of the animation.

Yeah, I agree with dodnet. It looks like you aren't stabbing fast enough. If the animation was further along it may work. Of course this would be way easier with the war spear and various other polearms with longer reach.

Your timing just looks off.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 05, 2012, 12:31:23 pm
During the first part of the thrusting animation you wont do any damage.

If you pay attention the video, I know it's poor quality, you can plainly see blood appear on the horse and weapon, indicating a successful hit of the horse, though I am ran over immediately thereafter. The easiest time to see it is after the first rearing attempt when I put it on my back, it has very obviously been bloodied. In the second attempt you see me pick up a clean Spear, which is then bloodied after the attempt, as well, indicating a hit. Brunchlady and I just made some more, including tests in Native (which worked), which will hopefully be of better quality since he knows what he's doing in terms of working with videos.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 05, 2012, 01:19:34 pm
Going to vouch. Something's off. We did some testing and I recorded it.
Everything shorter than warspear  <150 isn't rearing to my knowledge
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vj7unr8OAA
Malaclypse's sweet sweet voice

I back up when thrusting so I don't murder the horse in one shot with speed bonus.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 05, 2012, 03:34:14 pm
Malaclypse's sweet sweet voice

Thanks again for the help man! Also, careful with the video, it's easy to miss that the first test- the succesful rear- was on Native, while the others (in the rain) are on cRPG.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: n445 on February 05, 2012, 06:23:43 pm
war spears and spears already OP with the massive stun they do. No need to buff it and add another thing. Quit whinninig.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: zagibu on February 05, 2012, 07:30:20 pm
Quit whinninig.

Look at that, you almost got it right by mistake, this thread is indeed about whinnying.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: BADPLAYERold on February 06, 2012, 08:11:38 am
As a Cavalry player I noticed a change quite awhile ago about rearing, I forget which patch it was but after a certain patch my horse stopped getting reared by halfsworded 2handers and the shorter polearms, for example Goretooth used to be pretty good at rearing horses with his short Bec de Corbin, now I have multiple times seen him stab horses with it to no avail.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on February 06, 2012, 08:19:24 am
"Buff my weapon because I use it!"

I would think most all stab oriented weapons would have rear, and the swing-y ones not.
It is a bit  frail looking though, I think a plated charger would have no trouble making it explode in your hands.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Uumdi on February 06, 2012, 08:34:34 am
Yeah, its not about rallying for the weapon you use, spearmen are anti cav more than anti infantry.

I can understand maybe... not rearing armored horses I suppose.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Goretooth on February 06, 2012, 09:17:12 am
As a Cavalry player I noticed a change quite awhile ago about rearing, I forget which patch it was but after a certain patch my horse stopped getting reared by halfsworded 2handers and the shorter polearms, for example Goretooth used to be pretty good at rearing horses with his short Bec de Corbin, now I have multiple times seen him stab horses with it to no avail.
10 ps and a piece hitting a horse and it just keeps going that makes sense.....
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 06, 2012, 04:44:55 pm
As a Cavalry player I noticed a change quite awhile ago about rearing, I forget which patch it was but after a certain patch my horse stopped getting reared by halfsworded 2handers and the shorter polearms, for example Goretooth used to be pretty good at rearing horses with his short Bec de Corbin, now I have multiple times seen him stab horses with it to no avail.
I was also a cav player when this was "introduced" (bug or whatever it is). A lot of the shorter weapons stopped rearing my horse. I also remember doing some tests with a clanmate of mine. Some of the polearms didn't rear my horse then. Now we have seen videos of people not rearing the horse whent hey stab them with certain polearms. What we need to really confirm this is to do the same tests, but from the viewpoint of the horseman so we can keep an eye on the horses health. Then we can confirm if it actually DOES take damage.

PS: it's a LONG time since I was cav, so this isn't really something new :/
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 06, 2012, 06:06:15 pm
What we need to really confirm this is to do the same tests, but from the viewpoint of the horseman so we can keep an eye on the horses health. Then we can confirm if it actually DOES take damage.

I think Marathon recorded some from his angle on horseback, too, but I'm not sure if he deleted those after compiling before or what. I'd say just from looks (blood appearing) the horse was taking damage, though. I think we also got some stuff of the Military Fork (the 1 slot fork) not rearing.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 07, 2012, 02:55:56 am
I think Marathon recorded some from his angle on horseback, too, but I'm not sure if he deleted those after compiling before or what. I'd say just from looks (blood appearing) the horse was taking damage, though. I think we also got some stuff of the Military Fork (the 1 slot fork) not rearing.
I deleted them because it looks better from the footman's point of view.
They take damage, Lots of damage; just doesn't rear the horse. Nothing shorter than 150 length is stopping them. Used with shield or not.
By bug or design, it isn't happening.

The argument is that spears SHOULD rear them (and used to).
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Vexus on February 07, 2012, 10:31:50 am
Not all under 150 length don't stop horses the boar spear for example rears I tested it myself.

But yes they should rear.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Blackzilla on February 07, 2012, 02:56:40 pm
(not sure if its been suggested)
If you're not going to allow it to rear horses. Then at least make the spear one slot.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: cmp on February 08, 2012, 12:02:50 am
Found why this happens.
In 1.143 they changed it a bit, weapons need to be more than 140 long and deal pierce damage, and horse speed needs to be 3m/s instead of 4m/s. Didn't spot it before because I was working with 1.134 code.
Although that means it shouldn't rear in Native either. :|
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Jarlek on February 08, 2012, 12:24:04 am
Found why this happens.
In 1.143 they changed it a bit, weapons need to be more than 140 long and deal pierce damage, and horse speed needs to be 3m/s instead of 4m/s. Didn't spot it before because I was working with 1.134 code.
Although that means it shouldn't rear in Native either. :|
http://wiki.c-rpg.net/index.php?title=Polearms#Horse_rearing
Is this correct now? I just edited in the new info. Would also like you to check if the Polestagger info is correct.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Okkam on February 08, 2012, 12:32:50 am
maybe it's good time to add some more short, 1 slot polearms?
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 08, 2012, 07:20:06 am
Found why this happens.
In 1.143 they changed it a bit, weapons need to be more than 140 long and deal pierce damage, and horse speed needs to be 3m/s instead of 4m/s. Didn't spot it before because I was working with 1.134 code.
Although that means it shouldn't rear in Native either. :|
Maybe the Native server I tested it on wasn't updated fully or something.
Good to know what happened though.
Title: Re: Give Spear back horse-rearing ability
Post by: Malaclypse on February 09, 2012, 01:37:40 pm
I take it those criteria don't take into effect bonus +shield length, then, which is unfortunate.  The Spear easily clears 140 in hoplite mode and is a pierce weapon.

In any case, it's good to know the source of this rather than have it remain a mystery. I hope that someday all pierce thrust polearms are able to rear. Thanks for taking time out to look this stuff up, cmp.