cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 01:13:20 am

Title: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 01:13:20 am
Because I'm heavily biased and a little tired of anti-HA sentiment and the lack of discussion it gets when it gets heavily nerfed compared to when it's 'OP'. And will always lobby for HA.

Can we have something official from the devs on horse archery?

I just find it funny how HA went from this:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,919.msg11653.html#msg11653

To this (led to HA nerf):
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,8686.0.html

To this (See Paul's fix):
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10159.msg147733.html#msg147733

To being included in this:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23910.0.html

So basically it went from hardly being played, to supposedly being OP (though still rarely played until that thread publicised it and there was a massive jump in HA), to pretty much perfect, to very UP.

Currently HA are still good when working together and can rack up the kills. But on their own they are useless against cavalry (lack of damage to horses), can't get the headshots needed for the extra damage on inf except for luck (lack of accuracy) and a horse charge does more damage than a body shot from a horn bow (may as well just use my courser as my main weapon).

Always bare in mind that even on a full EU1 server with most of GK on, there will be maybe 5-6 HA tops split between the two teams. On an average day it rarely gets above 2 on the entire server at any one time until GK do come on. And that was pre-nerf. They aren't a widespread class at all.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 02:03:46 am
So far this kinda makes my point. Lack of any discussion  :lol:
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Thanatos on January 25, 2012, 02:08:50 am
Please boost xbow on horse. Mongoliaserf has been suffering and many mongols have put down the xbow as they feel they can't fight with it the way they used to.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Leshma on January 25, 2012, 02:12:24 am
I agree with you Overdriven. HA is really OP class, please nerf!
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 02:14:43 am
I agree with you Overdriven. HA is really OP class, please nerf!

 :|
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Gurnisson on January 25, 2012, 02:15:35 am
Well, horse archers were nerfed without really deserving it, just like throwers and crossbowmen. :(
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 02:18:02 am
Well, horse archers were nerfed without really deserving it, just like throwers and crossbowmen. :(

Yeah true. But that's why I'd actually like to hear something proper about it. Because so far it's been complete silence on the subject from any devs.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Malaclypse on January 25, 2012, 04:26:18 am
Tell The Duke of Disco BEATS that HA is underpowered, because the dude didn't get the memo.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Zerran on January 25, 2012, 06:14:19 am
Tell The Duke of Disco BEATS that HA is underpowered, because the dude didn't get the memo.

Played with him a few times. Guy gets headshots constantly. Unless he's just really really lucky, then he must be good. In that case, headshots are skill based.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Tonyukuk on January 25, 2012, 08:08:39 am
I think Ha class isnt kill machine And most of HA trying to kill enemy ınf..they dont try kill the horses so they are complain about it..
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Fartface on January 25, 2012, 08:33:47 am
In my gen of HA i was able to hold an 3:1 kdr so i dont think there nerfed that bad( this was after the patch)
Now  instead of just keep shooting at  thatt one lonely 2hander just put one shot at him and then switch targets this way by switching you wil get way more hits and at unaware targets getting hs is pretty easy.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Mtemtko on January 25, 2012, 09:46:33 am
fml, its extremely frustrating to put 12 arrows into a 2h with high end mail armor and then a lancer gets him with a single pass -.-
and same goes with lancers,5-8 arrows to take one out while they can take us out easily with a single pass, has are just annoying flies to everybody now.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: _Tak_ on January 25, 2012, 10:10:42 am
before the patch throwers were hard-lifers, now their life even become worse...and worse. you should bump the HA thread you made on the suggestion thread until a dev reply :D
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Herkkutatti on January 25, 2012, 10:12:15 am
fml, its extremely frustrating to put 12 arrows into a 2h with high end mail armor and then a lancer gets him with a single pass -.-
and same goes with lancers,5-8 arrows to take one out while they can take us out easily with a single pass, has are just annoying flies to everybody now.
No matter what horse i use Rouncey,Palfrey,courser,Destrier all the horses die from 1-3 shots destrier maybe 2-5 , and  i got 6 IF average body armor i use is 40-50 and i still get 2 shotted  and you still whine!#¤%(  :mad:
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 25, 2012, 10:33:03 am
Well, horse archers were nerfed without really deserving it, just like throwers and crossbowmen. :(
I do think a small damage nerf on xbows was/would have been justified. Especially concerning heirloomed +3 bolts + +3 xbow.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Mtemtko on January 25, 2012, 11:20:36 am
No matter what horse i use Rouncey,Palfrey,courser,Destrier all the horses die from 1-3 shots destrier maybe 2-5 , and  i got 6 IF average body armor i use is 40-50 and i still get 2 shotted  and you still whine!#¤%(  :mad:

aight sure lets test that later today
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 12:07:13 pm
In my gen of HA i was able to hold an 3:1 kdr so i dont think there nerfed that bad( this was after the patch)
Now  instead of just keep shooting at  thatt one lonely 2hander just put one shot at him and then switch targets this way by switching you wil get way more hits and at unaware targets getting hs is pretty easy.

That's the thing, I've had similar K/Ds on the maps I played with GK. When I've been the only HA on EU1 and on the losing team I've held an even K/D fairly well. But I find a lot of my kills now come from bumps as you shoot a person and then run them over.

Also that's the way any HA should play. The only reason I focus on one guy and try to kill him is either they are isolated and near the end of a round, or I'm testing how many arrows it takes. The other reason is I focus on cavalry. I've always been an HA who will focus 100% on enemy cavalry first, and until the majority of them are dehorsed I won't focus on inf except for the odd passing shot.

No matter what horse i use Rouncey,Palfrey,courser,Destrier all the horses die from 1-3 shots destrier maybe 2-5 , and  i got 6 IF average body armor i use is 40-50 and i still get 2 shotted  and you still whine!#¤%(  :mad:

It's not an HA that's shooting you. Unless they are an str HA in which case killing them is easy. But I've had destriers looking like pin cushions after I've been shooting them. It's gotten to the point where guys on destriers are now sympathetic to me after I finally shoot them down because it takes so long and I have to be so persistant, instead of raging.

And horse head shots rarely work. Example...already damaged arabian and what 'should' be an insta-kill horse head shot:
(click to show/hide)

Unless you hit them right on the end of the nose it doesn't work. You can test this just by shooting a stationary horse in the head. Sometimes the arrow even goes straight through the head and doesn't hit when shooting a stationary horse.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Fartface on January 25, 2012, 12:44:36 pm
Well overdriven i dont see the problem then, as an HA i noticed my destrier was an tank and wasn''t going down by archers easily,and i make the lancers or 1h cav chase me i hs there horse which is easy if there chasing you.
And than i put one shot in them when down and il move to another target, but im gonna have to agree it sometimes took way to many shots to kill an 2h in kuyak.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 12:47:11 pm
Well overdriven i dont see the problem then, as an HA i noticed my destrier was an tank and wasn''t going down by archers easily,and i make the lancers or 1h cav chase me i hs there horse which is easy if there chasing you.
And than i put one shot in them when down and il move to another target, but im gonna have to agree it sometimes took way to many shots to kill an 2h in kuyak.

Destrier isn't meant to be a tank. It's still a light horse regardless. All I can say is if it takes so many arrows to take down a destrier, I don't want to see how many it takes to take down armoured horses as it was already bad. And most lancers don't chase you unless they are incredibly stupid or there's more than one. You have to chase them.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: buba on January 25, 2012, 12:56:09 pm
I was already struggling before the patch, and thats most likly do to the fact that im simply a average player.
But also becouse the crosshair thats pretty wide, bugged hitboxes, PD5 wich isnt enough for 60% or more of the medium/heavy armor guys on a server and a large portion of the maps that dint support HA playstyle.

Now i was not complaining, i dont think HA should be topping the score boards, and exept for a handfull of HA's who get good scores whatever class they play.
HA's did not.

Now after the patch i can still get some kills, but dehorsing, shooting people of their horses and attacking anything with more then leather is hardly worth it.
I have to focus completly on peasents... and i hate that.

I havent played much since the latest patch, and i dont think i will.
Even, and really mean EVEN if the dev's look into the HA class.... and then say, well that nerf was to harsh.... it will be fixed in december 2010.

So ye, im a bit bleak after spending 9 gens and having 9 hierlooms spend in HA alone.
To far to "adapt" after having to adapt to the previous nerfs to my class, wich where also meant for foot archers with PD8 and high ath or whatnot.
Im still upset becouse of the arrow speed nerf, that took away alot. Arrows flight paths where buggy before but now they relly get all over the place.

Anywho, im ranting.
I have not posted anything about this topic becouse i did not fell it would help.
But i like that Overdriven keeps trying, kudos to you over.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Fartface on January 25, 2012, 01:37:07 pm
Destrier isn't meant to be a tank. It's still a light horse regardless. All I can say is if it takes so many arrows to take down a destrier, I don't want to see how many it takes to take down armoured horses as it was already bad. And most lancers don't chase you unless they are incredibly stupid or there's more than one. You have to chase them.
Were fighting differant people i think, on eu1 all lancers and 1h cav chase me lol.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 25, 2012, 01:39:47 pm
Were fighting differant people i think, on eu1 all lancers and 1h cav chase me lol.

Then they arnt very clever... chasing a ha is pointless, unless they havnt seen you you are far more likely to come out with a damaged horse than actually catch them.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 01:40:23 pm
Were fighting differant people i think, on eu1 all lancers and 1h cav chase me lol.

Haha most start running when I start shooting them, or just keep riding ignoring me and not even trying to dodge. There will ocassionally be an idiotic one who will chase me and I'll lead them off somewhere nice and quiet  :wink:
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 25, 2012, 02:02:58 pm
George how is that you have played a full gen of HA post patch already? How many days has it been? 6?

Anyway, off topic. The range patch was too broad, I think meow has already mentioned that the devs are working on away to balance it out.

Lets just hope it does get sorted and soonish preferably.

Today I stood on the duels server and let a guy do passes of me with a tartar bow + Bodkins + 6PD. I have +1 White Tunic over mail and mail gauntles. He shot me about 20 times until I got bored and killed his horse. The one thing I did notice that was wierd was that he did less damage to me when I was on my horse.

Overdriven isn't making up tales when he says running people over with the horse does more dmg.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: ZEE_BISHOP on January 25, 2012, 02:24:08 pm
I don't think most people have any sympathy for the HA cause because you are by far and away the cheapest class in C-RPG. You're not an easy class to play, but you're the least likeable. Having played HA, I felt dirty. You combine the worst aspects of archers and the worst aspects of cavalry. You're seen as the vultures of the battlefield, there's not a class you don't annoy including on your team.

You'll find this is mostly true for a large portion of HA (Not all!):

People look at normal cavalry and and go: "well, as annoying as they are... At least they use a melee weapon and have to get into range. They also have to run a gauntlette of throwers, polearms, 2 handers, xbows and archers" (Ha only "has" to deal with archers / xbowers).

People look at normal archers / cavalry and they go "well, annoying as they are... At least it's harder to run away for them, even the highest AGI archer can't run forever even if you're out of ranged. And if they do get into melee and they're high AGI they're down in a few hits."

That's not to say the life of a HA is an easy one, life is hard (It is for some other classes too). But you can get away the easiest. And in some ways, perhaps that "life is hard" aspect is what makes things worse. Because HA have a chip on their shoulder, they feel bitter that they can't get kills super easy and start hating everyone else. Which means they're more likely to do things off that list of dickish moves I posted above far more often and feel justified.  :wink:
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 25, 2012, 02:34:43 pm
I don't hate everyone else. I'm simply tired of HA nerfs.

1. I don't know many HA's to rush to spawn because the lancers will get the kills long before you do.
2. Well yeah...we kinda have to. My barbs actually register 0 damage against upper medium armour to heavy armour. So I have to go for peasants - lower med armour.
3. Mass horsebump....if that happens it's usually an accident. Horsebumps are used for specific targets and quite risky if it's against an aware person.
4. Well yeah, because of the accuracy. But shotgunning people like that takes a lot of skill and also allows melee to hit you quite easily if they play it right.
5. True as well. But again part of that is because it takes so long to kill them.
6. Ah now can't argue with this one. I live off the hate from lancers. Shooting their horses is sport, although useful for the team. But 3 lancers can easily pin an HA in and then they will not have to worry.
7. True that HA have a higher chance of staying alive and some HA will not stop at the end of a round. But I've gotten used to judging my chances and if I can see there's no chance, I'll either suicide charge or get off my horse and find a melee weapon. Something most HA should do I think.
8. Haha not necessarily true. The chance of hitting each is usually 50/50 if you are moving. But if you are stationary then it's easy to just keep drawing till you get your opportunity.
9. Yeah no. Doing that is suicidal if even one of the inf is paying attention. HA aren't to handy with melee weapons (bar maybe elmer).
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 26, 2012, 01:33:42 am
Well...bump anyway.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Taser on January 26, 2012, 06:49:20 am
I don't think most people have any sympathy for the HA cause because you are by far and away the cheapest class in C-RPG. You're not an easy class to play, but you're the least likeable. Having played HA, I felt dirty. You combine the worst aspects of archers and the worst aspects of cavalry. You're seen as the vultures of the battlefield, there's not a class you don't annoy including on your team.

You'll find this is mostly true for a large portion of HA (Not all!):
  • You're the guys who rush over to the enemy spawn to get a free kill (along with other kill hungry cavalry).
  • You'll go after the peasants  more than anything because of their lack of armour, picking on the weakest of the weak as bad as some of the kill-whoring lancers. Anything for a kill!
  • You'll mass horse bump with impunity. Relentlessly if you can followed by an arrow to the back at close range while the poor guy is down.
  • You'll ride up super close and shot gun people, noob-xbower style.
  • You'll happily pick on people and kite them around all day like they're your personal target and plaything.
  • You'll piss off all the other cav with a fast enough horse running around untouchable, never having to actually get into melee range of them.
  • You'll invariably be the last guy alive valour leeching and pissing off your team as you ride around neigh on untouchable.
  • You're firing into packs of infantry and will hit your team mates a lot more because of your movement. Stunning and pissing off team mates and enemies who are invariably outnumbered while they try to fight.
  • You'll bump through packs of infantry when you're able to knocking  over team mate and enemy alike desperate to get a kill as much as the worst cav offenders.

People look at normal cavalry and and go: "well, as annoying as they are... At least they use a melee weapon and have to get into range. They also have to run a gauntlette of throwers, polearms, 2 handers, xbows and archers" (Ha only "has" to deal with archers / xbowers).

People look at normal archers / cavalry and they go "well, annoying as they are... At least it's harder to run away for them, even the highest AGI archer can't run forever even if you're out of ranged. And if they do get into melee and they're high AGI they're down in a few hits."

That's not to say the life of a HA is an easy one, life is hard (It is for some other classes too). But you can get away the easiest. And in some ways, perhaps that "life is hard" aspect is what makes things worse. Because HA have a chip on their shoulder, they feel bitter that they can't get kills super easy and start hating everyone else. Which means they're more likely to do things off that list of dickish moves I posted above far more often and feel justified.  :wink:

I was going to post a lol wut image here but I got sidetracked and laughed my ass off for 10 minutes or so with various images. Anyway your entire quote has nothing to do with why HA should or shouldn't be nerfed. Regardless of their status with NA/EU/melee/archers/Sauron/my third grade teacher/your mom/etc, it doesn't matter.

They are a hated class and for good reason. You've listed a number of them. I hate HA's a bit myself but less so than most since I am an archer. I've only been an archer for about 4 gens now and was melee for 6 gens before that. I am well aware of HA hate and had more of it when I was melee.

They still got shafted with the nerf. Hopefully they'll be buffed some so I don't feel invulnerable fighting a HA via a ranged fight. They're like mosquitos at the moment. Annoying? Hell yes. Dangerous? No.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Haragh on January 26, 2012, 07:09:18 am
I don't think most people have any sympathy for the HA cause because you are by far and away the cheapest class in C-RPG.
Mmm yea right. That's why I made 20k gold in one generation playing as a HA. Also same as a foot archer in one gen.
Some people maybe don't just understand that arrows break more often and so playing as a HA (or foot archer) will be much more costly then playing as a medium armored 2H / 1H+Shield when you can make 200k+. Just pointing this fact.

And yes nerf on archers (and xbows) was little bit over the top.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: mOus333 on January 26, 2012, 07:18:25 am

Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Gristle on January 26, 2012, 07:50:37 am
Mmm yea right. That's why I made 20k gold in one generation playing as a HA. Also same as a foot archer in one gen.
Some people maybe don't just understand that arrows break more often and so playing as a HA (or foot archer) will be much more costly then playing as a medium armored 2H / 1H+Shield when you can make 200k+. Just pointing this fact.

And yes nerf on archers (and xbows) was little bit over the top.

I don't think that's the kind of cheap he was talking about.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 26, 2012, 11:14:28 am
Haha no he meants cheap kills I think.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 30, 2012, 10:38:39 pm
Bump.

Had some interesting duels on EU3 tonight  :)
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 30, 2012, 10:55:19 pm
After dueling with OD on EU_1 for a while I truly understand that HA are in a REALLY bad spot, they gotta use tons of arrows to kill someone, got little to no accuracy (infantry will be un-headshotable if they try  a magic thing called dodging).
While throwing also needs to be unnerfed I'm sorry to admit that HAs are worse off than me... :( guess I better stop spamming "fix throwing"... and start spamming "fix on horse-ranged (luckely I also apply here)".
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 30, 2012, 11:47:29 pm
After dueling with OD on EU_1 for a while I truly understand that HA are in a REALLY bad spot, they gotta use tons of arrows to kill someone, got little to no accuracy (infantry will be un-headshotable if they try  a magic thing called dodging).
While throwing also needs to be unnerfed I'm sorry to admit that HAs are worse off than me... :( guess I better stop spamming "fix throwing"... and start spamming "fix on horse-ranged (luckely I also apply here)".

Kafein would disagree  :wink: But you were wearing much better armour and helmet than he was. But you also demonstrated how bad throwing is. I was wearing Kazakh armour and you still barely damaged me  :lol:
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Literally_Circler on January 30, 2012, 11:51:40 pm

Currently HA are still good when working together and can rack up the kills. But on their own they are useless against cavalry (lack of damage to horses), can't get the headshots needed for the extra damage on inf except for luck (lack of accuracy) and a horse charge does more damage than a body shot from a horn bow (may as well just use my courser as my main weapon).


GASP! So you might actually have to use teamwork to be successful instead of being Rambo! I shudder to think of that kind of world.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 30, 2012, 11:52:42 pm
GASP! So you might actually have to use teamwork to be successful instead of being Rambo! I shudder to think of that kind of world.

Missed the point evidently...
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 30, 2012, 11:55:35 pm
Kafein would disagree  :wink: But you were wearing much better armour and helmet than he was. But you also demonstrated how bad throwing is. I was wearing Kazakh armour and you still barely damaged me  :lol:
wow... wth?.. ofcourse I KNOW THE REASON FOR THAT, and how to take 90% of your health in a throw, even know how to block a players view of his weapon using a throwing lance but that's another story... yet I'm surprised I did that little, how little? odd since I took 80% off an archer in one throw before him and the two other rangeds facing me massacred me.

Also: (my new official spam message) Fix the fucking horse-ranged-and-ground-throwing-and-maybe-even-xbowing you sons of bitches! expect that to be randomly spammed everywhere.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Literally_Circler on January 30, 2012, 11:57:23 pm
Missed the point evidently...

could say the same to you
look at what i quoted
he admits that when working cooperatively with teammates he can still perform well

as a lancer cav i hate dealing with horse archers
yes they probably wont kill me or my horse unless we've taken significant damage already
but they stun me with hits when im about to kill someone, saving lives and giving their teammates a chance to hit me

they are a damn good support role and this sounds like a complaint that they arent out there getting massive kill scores
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 30, 2012, 11:58:26 pm
wow... wth?.. ofcourse I KNOW THE REASON FOR THAT, and how to take 90% of your health in a throw, even know how to block a players view of his weapon using a throwing lance but that's another story... yet I'm surprised I did that little, how little? odd since I took 80% off an archer in one throw before him and the two other rangeds facing me massacred me.

Also: (my new official spam message) Fix the fucking horse-ranged-and-ground-throwing-and-maybe-even-xbowing you sons of bitches! expect that to be randomly spammed everywhere.

Some hits only did 40%. Which is bad considering my 17 body armour. Even worse was looking at how many it took you to take out my courser!

could say the same to you
look at what i quoted
he admits that when working cooperatively with teammates he can still perform well

as a lancer cav i hate dealing with horse archers
yes they probably wont kill me or my horse unless we've taken significant damage already
but they stun me with hits when im about to kill someone, saving lives and giving their teammates a chance to hit me

they are a damn good support role and this sounds like a complaint that they arent out there getting massive kill scores

Most other classes don't have to work together to get decent amounts of kills.

I hate that term 'support role'. Who designates that? There's 0 reason for HA to be a support role and have big damage reduction. I never said anything about massive amounts of kills. You're just putting words in my mouth now. But when I can only just break even, or slightly above, an even K/D then it's pretty crappy. The only times I've gotten high amounts of kills was when working with GK HA's and lancers to gank people with cav, simply because they do alot of damage and then a arrow shot can finish them off. No other class has to rely on their team mates quite like that because none has such crappy damage that HA does atm.

I proved with Kafein that I can keep him chasing me all day on a duel server with his 1h cav and kill him, unless I screw up basically. But that kind of play doesn't transfer into battle. The sheer number of cav/inf means that you can't just run willy nilly around the map avoiding and shooting from a distance. It takes a lot more than that and is very risky play on the majority of maps (it's only easy on flat open maps). And that's the big mistake that people make when thinking about HA. They think because they are on a horse and have a bow they can avoid everything. Sure on flat maps I can do that easy. The vast majority of maps on EU1 aren't flat, nor completely open.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Life on January 30, 2012, 11:58:46 pm
BUFF HORSE ARCHERY NOWWW!
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 31, 2012, 12:02:16 am
GASP! So you might actually have to use teamwork to be successful instead of being Rambo! I shudder to think of that kind of world.
Hey, eh, guy, ya' know, every class should be able to beat a single player from another class if working together, (still got nightmares of 8 or so GK's circling me while bumping and stabbing) but they should also be allowed to function on their own... oh wait, that's only for infantry, and how much do you wanna bet that once you see ten HAs riding together (luckily this will never happen) bump-shooting you to death you're gonna wish they stayed alone while fighting.

Some hits only did 40%. Which is bad considering my 17 body armour. Even worse was looking at how many it took you to take out my courser!
Yeah the courser thing really shocked me, but I know the reason for it, on other times your courser fell in one or two hits... I know how throwing works, it's all about timing, not aiming.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Kafein on January 31, 2012, 12:11:50 am
fml, its extremely frustrating to put 12 arrows into a 2h with high end mail armor and then a lancer gets him with a single pass -.-
and same goes with lancers,5-8 arrows to take one out while they can take us out easily with a single pass, has are just annoying flies to everybody now.

You kill my horse with exaclty 4 body shots... Not 5-8.

Kafein would disagree  :wink: But you were wearing much better armour and helmet than he was. But you also demonstrated how bad throwing is. I was wearing Kazakh armour and you still barely damaged me  :lol:

I devised a new secret technique of ancient 1h cav to fight against HA. But I'm not revealing anything, and I don't think you would either xD Interesting duels indeed. I think we ended up being pretty even, but you weren't aiming at my horse, and I got a shield so it doesn't really count. HA against light cav seems ok to me currently, and probably underpowered. I think it's a good idea to buff the HA skill (less agi needed ?) and the Yumi, that one really deserves some love. Faster paced horse archery isn't goign to hurt anyone. But the damage should stay the same.

But what I would really like to see nerfed, though, is the bumpshots. HA are able to "aimlock" shielded infantry, forcing them to keep the shield up, while simultaneously go and bump them. There's virtually no defense against that, no matter what type of infantry you are, even hoplites, that are logically protected against the two threats, can't do anything.

Finally, when you count hits, don't forget that I usually had to hit you twice with my sword to kill you, given I had very little speed bonus when chasing you.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 31, 2012, 12:18:41 am
You kill my horse with exaclty 4 body shots... Not 5-8.

I devised a new secret technique of ancient 1h cav to fight against HA. But I'm not revealing anything, and I don't think you would either xD Interesting duels indeed. I think we ended up being pretty even, but you weren't aiming at my horse, and I got a shield so it doesn't really count. HA against light cav seems ok to me currently, and probably underpowered. I think it's a good idea to buff the HA skill (less agi needed ?) and the Yumi, that one really deserves some love. Faster paced horse archery isn't goign to hurt anyone. But the damage should stay the same.

But what I would really like to see nerfed, though, is the bumpshots. HA are able to "aimlock" shielded infantry, forcing them to keep the shield up, while simultaneously go and bump them. There's virtually no defense against that, no matter what type of infantry you are, even hoplites, that are logically protected against the two threats, can't do anything.

Finally, when you count hits, don't forget that I usually had to hit you twice with my sword to kill you, given I had very little speed bonus when chasing you.

That technique was actually quite innovative...I was impressed  :) But yeah we were relatively even seeing as you could 2 shot me with those thrusts. But I also had the speed bonus working for me as I usually slowed to fire and let you charge into me. And yeah I wasn't aiming at your horse. Though it takes about 5 arrows to kill an arabian without a headshot, though that does fluctuate a bit.

Lancer you weren't quite so good. But I know for example, Kerrigan and Maganda can outsmart me every time and 1shot me with their lances/champ arabians if I get into a fight with them.

Bump shooting however is quite hard to pull off. Largely the shielder does have to rely on the HA making a mistake, but more often than not I think they would. If you hold your shield up and then at the last moment slash the horse before the bump, as long as the HA doesn't fire to stun bump you, or he misses, then you'll get the damage on the horse.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 31, 2012, 12:20:51 am
Hey, eh, guy, ya' know, every class should be able to beat a single player from another class if working together, (still got nightmares of 8 or so GK's circling me while bumping and stabbing) but they should also be allowed to function on their own... oh wait, that's only for infantry, and how much do you wanna bet that once you see ten HAs riding together (luckily this will never happen) bump-shooting you to death you're gonna wish they stayed alone while fighting.
Yeah the courser thing really shocked me, but I know the reason for it, on other times your courser fell in one or two hits... I know how throwing works, it's all about timing, not aiming... also, since it's pierce dmg I don't think your armor matters AS much.
Damn, qouted me instead of modifying, sry.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Mtemtko on January 31, 2012, 12:22:06 am
You kill my horse with exaclty 4 body shots... Not 5-8.

I devised a new secret technique of ancient 1h cav to fight against HA. But I'm not revealing anything, and I don't think you would either xD Interesting duels indeed. I think we ended up being pretty even, but you weren't aiming at my horse, and I got a shield so it doesn't really count. HA against light cav seems ok to me currently, and probably underpowered. I think it's a good idea to buff the HA skill (less agi needed ?) and the Yumi, that one really deserves some love. Faster paced horse archery isn't goign to hurt anyone. But the damage should stay the same.

But what I would really like to see nerfed, though, is the bumpshots. HA are able to "aimlock" shielded infantry, forcing them to keep the shield up, while simultaneously go and bump them. There's virtually no defense against that, no matter what type of infantry you are, even hoplites, that are logically protected against the two threats, can't do anything.

Finally, when you count hits, don't forget that I usually had to hit you twice with my sword to kill you, given I had very little speed bonus when chasing you.

What horse are talking about here?(no offense, but there are so many fucking cavs everywhere nowadays that I cant memorize the players/horses so well) Also back then I had 145ish wpf 5PD, now I have 6PD 160 wpf, even now I rarely bother shooting coursers/destriers to body, waste of arrows, but if its an arabian or rouncey ill gladly kill it.

Bout horsebump. Man do you even see how many times people just jump 5 meters in the air and cut my head off when i try that? Also if I do an intentional bump and try to get a shot, it takes me longer to draw the bow than the bumped guy to get back on his legs and get moving destroying my chance, so it only works with 5PD, and if I hold my shot.. for longer than 1-1,5sec my accuracy is so bad that hitting the target is based on pure luck then(usually i dont bother if its like that). This only works against 2handers with a shield and no other weapons, atleast 70% reliably.

Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Overdriven on January 31, 2012, 12:25:07 am
Bout horsebump. Man do you even see how many times people just jump 5 meters in the air and cut my head off when i try that? Also if I do an intentional bump and try to get a shot, it takes me longer to draw the bow than the bumped guy to get back on his legs and get moving destroying my chance, so it only works with 5PD, and if I hold my shot.. for longer than 1-1,5sec my accuracy is so bad that hitting the target is based on pure luck then. This will only work against 2handers with a shield and no other weapons.

I forgot about that. Again the only way for an HA to avoid being slashed like that with a bump is to get the shot off and stun the person. Bloody difficult though.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Mtemtko on January 31, 2012, 12:26:48 am
I forgot about that. Again the only way for an HA to avoid being slashed like that with a bump is to get the shot off and stun the person. Bloody difficult though.

the jump decapitation happens almost always with turtles, so yeah, way too risky to go for the shot like that, but if its a polearmer/2her walking in a straight line or fighting shooting him headon, bumping him and hoping to hit him again isnt that hard. (except for the last shot)

I forgot to mention that this 3-combo only works well with an arabian/slower and more agile horse, with the courser I cant dodge danger at all and if I shoot at 3/4 or full speed, my arrows hit the ground 10 meters infront of me unless im shooting in the sky (I didnt notice this half a year ago).

I'd probably go for 8PD just for more damage(as shitty it is now), but seeing that difference from 6/7PD is almost nonexistant... :/
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Cris on January 31, 2012, 01:15:15 am
I forgot about that. Again the only way for an HA to avoid being slashed like that with a bump is to get the shot off and stun the person. Bloody difficult though.

adding to that, when we do pull it off, we still do very little damage to them :P

Eitherway, i try to do that a lot when im last in the round, it gives melee a chance to kill us as we get in their range, so if i was melee, i wouldnt complain :P (i dont when playing on melee alt :) )
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Reinhardt on January 31, 2012, 01:20:20 am
Nerf Horse Archers to be able to use only Sumpters, then increase damage, accuracy, and whatever for them.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Kafein on January 31, 2012, 10:43:34 am
I imagine how bumpshots can be difficult when you face a jump-happy imp, but still, if you slow down enough most builds can't dodge the bump (but then ofc, you are easier to slash straight on)

What horse are talking about here?(no offense, but there are so many fucking cavs everywhere nowadays that I cant memorize the players/horses so well) Also back then I had 145ish wpf 5PD, now I have 6PD 160 wpf, even now I rarely bother shooting coursers/destriers to body, waste of arrows, but if its an arabian or rouncey ill gladly kill it.

I got a +3 Arab :( goes down in 4 shots. That happened quite often during that map and this is more a rant than criticism because I was particularly bad that day, continuously going your way :lol:

Lancer you weren't quite so good. But I know for example, Kerrigan and Maganda can outsmart me every time and 1shot me with their lances/champ arabians if I get into a fight with them.

Heh, I really lost my lancer skills, and you guys improved a lot. Nowadays, I chicken out when I see Kerrigan, and I don't remember that in the past. That's part of the reason I was in the duel server (to get that bloody lance timing back), but sadly there aren't many good lancers training there.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Stjitalurv on January 31, 2012, 12:04:59 pm
The thing with HA is they can absolutely not be overpowered, cuz then everybody would play as one. They might be slightly underpowered now but not much... Its the most annoying class to have as an enemy. The advantages of riding and shooting from range is a helluva advantage id say. You cant have every cookie in the bowl and eat them by yourself.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Leesin on January 31, 2012, 12:34:52 pm
The thing with HA is they can absolutely not be overpowered, cuz then everybody would play as one. They might be slightly underpowered now but not much... Its the most annoying class to have as an enemy. The advantages of riding and shooting from range is a helluva advantage id say. You cant have every cookie in the bowl and eat them by yourself.

Slightly underpowered is an understatement, I'm pretty sure a HA does less damage from horseback with the same PD, WPF, bow and arrows than an archer does on foot, because of the minuses for being on a horse. The HA skill negates this, but I think the most HA people use is 4 ( atleast it's what I use on my alt and I have a 15/24 build ) and I can't imagine that negates all of the minuses.

So when Horse Archers were nerfed a while ago, they became balanced, but when archers as a whole got nerfed recently, it nerfed horse archers again and now they're double nerfed, more than any build. I imagine the way to fix this would be to make it so HA skill gives more bonus, or something along those lines.
Title: Re: Horse Archery
Post by: Murchad on January 31, 2012, 05:31:08 pm
I have found it much easier to counter foot archers since patch. and I have still been doing good as HA.
I mostly use nomad bow now and aim for head (on horses and people) works like a charm.

Alternatly I can switch to mw horn with mw bodkins and still get alot of kills doing body shots but since i can do just as good with the cheap nomad I have been sticking with it.

so for my 2cents HA is fine as is