cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lysander on January 17, 2012, 08:53:02 pm

Title: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Lysander on January 17, 2012, 08:53:02 pm
I just jecked the prices on the marketplace, and wondering if anyone pays so much, or if the market stands still, cause no one have so much money..

For a +3 horse 1.700k??
+3 Armour also around 1.700k ?

Or a +3 Morningstar 1.500k??
I remember when I bought one last autumn for 1.100k

Something has to be changed here.
Feel free to bring solutions.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Strudog on January 17, 2012, 08:56:14 pm
i think someone said this earlier on that the dev team would sell loom points at a lower price, bu this isnt the complete fix because those with a lot of money would exploit it, maybe you couldonly buy a loompoint every month?

i dunno, somone with better knowledge could shed light on the matter....
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2012, 09:00:01 pm
inflation? really?
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Polobow on January 17, 2012, 09:01:55 pm
Well, i think there must be a small downfall coming up with the sacrifice option, since some of them will sell looms on the market.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: jspook on January 17, 2012, 09:21:16 pm
It's a free market.  You cant tell the seller what their point is worth to them.  You can only do so by not purchasing until a price becomes reasonable for you.  No one should be forcing any market values big brother style.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 17, 2012, 09:34:42 pm
well realistically armours go for 1.4-1.5 and only a few items over that.
 
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: polkafranzi on January 17, 2012, 09:35:15 pm
Quote from: jspook on January 17, 2012, 09:21:16 pm
It's a free market.  You cant tell the seller what their point is worth to them.  You can only do so by not purchasing until a price becomes reasonable for you.  No one should be forcing any market values big brother style.

No except 99% of the community are sheep.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nasturtium on January 17, 2012, 09:41:49 pm
Its inevitable that there be inflation, since sellers will always err on the high side, the only thing that brings prices down is people not buying items marked up to high.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 17, 2012, 09:57:07 pm
I have a similar impression. I did some trading with +1 items over about half a year. Overall I earned quite well, but at the end of the year the prices went up and the selling became more slowly. At the beginning i sold items with a gain of around 30000 in about 3 days, at last it took weeks to sell them.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: The_Iberian on January 17, 2012, 10:07:55 pm
As long as people are willing to pay the prices will continue to rise, there is no need to "regulate" the market, it regulates itself, the prices will never reach a point where no one can afford them, everyone can trade therefore the competition is too great for a monopoly to exist, it is the buyers that really control the market. The freer the market, the freer the players.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2012, 10:20:44 pm
This "free" market is too expensive for me.

We need chinese labour to cut down the prices.

In order to popularize c-rpg in China dev team should allow Chinese players to leech with no consequences and gather huge amount of loom points which they would sell for ridiculously low prices. But they should put a ping limit on their servers aka IP lock. Also we should set a ping limit at 250 ping so they can't come here and show off their looms.

That way both parties would be satisfied. They would have their looms which they could only use on their low populated servers (or on AUS but who gives a damn about aussies anyways). And we would get low loom point prices in return.

Big brother can be useful at times.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Thomek on January 17, 2012, 10:20:59 pm
People that have all the looms they need are growing relative to those who dont.
They stop retiring, starting to buy loom points in stead. So less looms on the market relative to demand.

The demand is rising faster than the offers basically.

It may seem daunting for a fresh player, but still, it is a great idea for them to sell loompoints since basically 2 loom points + a little is a MW item in money.

So it ain't that bad.. 2 generations for a MW item. (Before it used to be 3)
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Grumbs on January 17, 2012, 11:14:12 pm
New players start with quite a deficit in armour. Until you get +3 gloves and armour you have -10 body armour. I would be tempted to allow new players to loom their first item straight to +3 to give them a boost. I have played now since late October pretty heavily and still don't have a body armour loom and was only using cheap/medium gear (got +3 gloves and recently +3 weapon). At +3 gloves, body armour and weapon you are pretty much on an even footing imo, although gear isn't as important as just learning how to play ofc, it does matter to some extent.

New players may not feel comfortable selling a loom point too, and I doubt it is quite so easy to sell as a new player as theres an amount of trust involved unless its a +1, or you need gear/gold in the first place to make the trade.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Auphilia on January 18, 2012, 01:36:33 am
A problem I've notice in the market as it is, is the fact that you are not allowed to offer gold for a certain item. What this does is cause ONLY the sellers to dictate prices (which will ALWAYS be higher than what most people are willing to buy for). The only time sellers lower their prices is when they see other sellers selling the same item for cheaper. This is a bad system, plain and simple. If we allowed players to offer gold for certain items the sellers could see what prices people are willing to pay, which would make the market actually move. Right now, it takes weeks to make a sale or weeks to buy an item at a decent price.

For example, out of all the expensive items you listed, if someone actually wanted to sell them I'm sure they would have by now if they saw someone was buying it for 200-300k less. Simply because time is money. No one wants to wait weeks just to be able to sell an item and buy the one they want to use. I also think trading items should be removed. There is nothing good from trading items besides people literally sharing their heirlooms with friends OR people looking to get rid of hard to sell junk items that less informed members of the community will regrettably buy.

If the system were simply "Make offer with X amount of gold for Y item." and "Make offer with X item for Y amount of gold." The market would be so much smoother and prices would be able to be regulated by a living economy, not greedy players.

I understand we have the forums for this, but that is completely outdated and impractical at this point. A lot of people don't use the forums to buy and sell things, nor should they have to. It is too slow for an economy to effectively regulate prices.

I'm sorry if I am ignorant to the grand reasoning behind not allowing players to offer gold for items on the market, but if there isn't any grand reasoning then it should definitely be implemented as soon as possible if the economy of this game is important at all.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nagasoup on January 18, 2012, 03:02:08 am
If you want to judge the market, look not at the highest prices, because nobody buys those, but look what the lowest prices are. If the lowest prices increase, then yes it is inflation. If only the most expensive items increased in price, then it is only someone trying to jew.

I still see the lowest price for +1 looms staying at a steady 300k, and lowest price for +3 at 1mill, so the market has not changed much for the last couple of months.

Oh, and learn the prices for items before you judge the market. The +3 horse you are talking about is the destrier, which was always selling for more than loompoint costs because it is a very high demand item. I remember someone sold a +3 destrier for 1.7mill during the time when loom points were 500k each, so that was 200k more than the loompoints required.

Another thing to look for is loompoint prices.

Only thing changed was loompoint price, but I think loompoints have hit a plateau at around 550k per.

Unless a new patch comes out that changes the gold earning rate or retirement, I predict loompoints will not go beyond 600k.

Quote from: The_White_Lotus on January 18, 2012, 01:36:33 am
A problem I've notice in the market as it is, is the fact that you are not allowed to offer gold for a certain item. What this does is cause ONLY the sellers to dictate prices (which will ALWAYS be higher than what most people are willing to buy for). The only time sellers lower their prices is when they see other sellers selling the same item for cheaper. This is a bad system, plain and simple. If we allowed players to offer gold for certain items the sellers could see what prices people are willing to pay, which would make the market actually move. Right now, it takes weeks to make a sale or weeks to buy an item at a decent price.

That is also another reason loom prices go up. When you only let sellers dictate prices, the price goes up.

For example:

1. someone buys a loom for 900k
2. he gets tired of it and decides to resell
3. without any buyers requesting the item for a certain price, the seller has to choose price
4. he thinks "hmm well I bought it for 900k, well I don't want to sell it for lower than 900k or I lose money" .So what happens? He sells it for more than 900k
5. He puts it on market for 950k
6. Someone buys it and the process repeats!

This is the reason why looms become more expensive, not inflation. Inflation happens when the amount of currency increases, but the amount of resources stay the same, leading to the devaluation of currency.

However, in c-rpg both currency AND resources (looms) increase, because as players gain money, they also gain exp and retire which leads to more looms.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on January 18, 2012, 04:31:45 am
Quote from: Nagasoup on January 18, 2012, 03:02:08 am
This is the reason why looms become more expensive, not inflation. Inflation happens when the amount of currency increases, but the amount of resources stay the same, leading to the devaluation of currency.
Technically there is an increase in resources, as people are constantly making more heirlooms, and very few people delete their heirlooms. But I agree that it is not the issue.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Oggrinsky on January 18, 2012, 04:48:47 am
FEAR THE INVISIBLE HAND!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on January 18, 2012, 04:53:14 am
Quote from: Oggrinsky on January 18, 2012, 04:48:47 am
FEAR THE INVISIBLE HAND!  :twisted:
Don't bite the invisible hand that feeds invisible food of invisibility.  :?:
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nagasoup on January 18, 2012, 06:23:16 am
Quote from: JayPet94 on January 18, 2012, 04:31:45 am
Technically there is an increase in resources, as people are constantly making more heirlooms, and very few people delete their heirlooms. But I agree that it is not the issue.

Ugh... yea... read my sentence right below that....
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: VR__Alv on January 18, 2012, 09:01:30 am
Fuck the system sell  your MW's for 5g!!!
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: dodnet on January 18, 2012, 01:24:46 pm
Quote from: Thomek on January 17, 2012, 10:20:59 pm
It may seem daunting for a fresh player, but still, it is a great idea for them to sell loompoints since basically 2 loom points + a little is a MW item in money.

So it ain't that bad.. 2 generations for a MW item. (Before it used to be 3)

Which only works if the things you want are on the market. I would like to buy some black lamellar vest, but I have never seen any. And as long as you cant put gold offers on the market, its almost useless for me. I try to make some money in my current gens but I more and more get the doubt that its completely useless as the prizes rise more and more and I cant buy anything useful for my hardly earned money. Well maybe loompoints only, though that process is a bit complicated and risky.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 01:50:56 pm
Quote from: The_Iberian on January 17, 2012, 10:07:55 pm
As long as people are willing to pay the prices will continue to rise, there is no need to "regulate" the market, it regulates itself, the prices will never reach a point where no one can afford them, everyone can trade therefore the competition is too great for a monopoly to exist, it is the buyers that really control the market. The freer the market, the freer the players.

Hugely untrue and a false sense of market regulation.

If we're going to draw a realistic parallel then "Printing Money" equals "Selling Loom Points" and "Grinding Gold" in-game equals the 'earnings' you would do through "Work".

Some (a lot) have enough looms to fill a full set, plus a few extra weapon looms or armor looms to switch to if wanted. Top of that they're loaded with gold due to having sold 1-3 of these extra looms.
Why would anyone spend gold when they can trade a loom if they need something, and if they need more gold they'd just sell a loom point once in a while.

Most gold today is even spent on Loom Points where the prices are on an all-time high.

Gold prices will continue to rise through the roof because 'the people' can effectively "print money" plus setting their value - this offsets the balance.

Regulate the prices on Loom Points.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Arkonor on January 18, 2012, 02:01:37 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 01:50:56 pm
Hugely untrue and a false sense of market regulation.

If we're going to draw a realistic parallel then "Printing Money" equals "Selling Loom Points" and "Grinding Gold" in-game equals the 'earnings' you would do through "Work".

Some (a lot) have enough looms to fill a full set, plus a few extra weapon looms or armor looms to switch to if wanted. Top of that they're loaded with gold due to having sold 1-3 of these extra looms.
Why would anyone spend gold when they can trade a loom if they need something, and if they need more gold they'd just sell a loom point once in a while.

Most gold today is even spent on Loom Points where the prices are on an all-time high.

Gold prices will continue to rise through the roof because 'the people' can effectively "print money" plus setting their value - this offsets the balance.

Regulate the prices on Loom Points.

Printing money = A loan (look it up) not someone buying it for gold they "earned" by playing.

The gold inflation is probably because not many people use gear that doesn't give them profit in the long run. Doesn't help that wearing the best gear is often considered actually worse then just using light to medium armor :P
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on January 18, 2012, 02:14:00 pm
This is only problem for the
(click to show/hide)
   :twisted:
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 02:18:06 pm
Quote from: Arkonor on January 18, 2012, 02:01:37 pm
Printing money = A loan (look it up) not someone buying it for gold they "earned" by playing.

The gold inflation is probably because not many people use gear that doesn't give them profit in the long run. Doesn't help that wearing the best gear is often considered actually worse then just using light to medium armor :P

Yes, when we sell Loom Points in C-RPG we 'loan money from an institution' - or wait :rolleyes: Anti-Regulators, bah! Scum as in real life. :twisted:

I'll detail it so you can easier comprehend unless you're going to nitpick one part easily understood and make it stupid. :wink:

Money is MADE in C-RPG all the time by people playing, this is called 'the multiplier of goldness' top of that when people hit level 31 they have the option of equally turning one of their items into "gold" - nowadays around 500k to 600k gold, used to be around 300k - this effectively puts more gold into the market because this item is now worth X amount of gold, it is AS GOOD AS GOLD if not better. Yes there is only a certain amount of gold in the game from people actually grinding, but if you would take just a slight second to screenshot the system text after a round ends you can figure out how much gold is on average floating around plus being made.

Selling loom points at outrageous prices is what drives up the overall prices, people will always somewhat multiply the cost of their items by the cost of a loom point. They will continue to do so until we hit some insanely high price where people then stop buying, but why do we want to wait for the bubble to burst just regulate the market and be done with it, this isn't real anyway and doing so would be for the better of the community and game.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Arkonor on January 18, 2012, 02:25:49 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 02:18:06 pm
Money is MADE in C-RPG all the time by people playing, this is called 'the multiplier of goldness' top of that when people hit level 31 they have the option of equally turning one of their items into "gold" - nowadays around 500k to 600k gold, used to be around 300k - this effectively puts more gold into the market because this item is now worth X amount of gold, it is AS GOOD AS GOLD if not better.

This is simply not how the world works :)

If I were a magician in real life and would create 10 million barrels of oil and then sell them I would not have impacted the total amount of money in the world the slightest. Only loans with interests inflate.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Tristan on January 18, 2012, 02:33:33 pm
I do not believe in regulating the prices of looms.

It is obvious that some looms are worth far more because they are far more popular.

Bad weapons are like miewodao and arrows.

Good items are like armor etc.

let prices flow freely.

Edit: The only real issue I have with the market is when balancing changes suddenly alter weapons completely.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 02:35:44 pm
Quote from: Arkonor on January 18, 2012, 02:25:49 pm
This is simply not how the world works :)

If I were a magician in real life and would create 10 million barrels of oil and then sell them I would not have impacted the total amount of money in the world the slightest. Only loans with interests inflate.


CRPG != Real World.

I find it troubling that you cannot comprehend that even with all the detailed writing beforehand in regards to drawing parallels.

BUT, Iceland were also the first Country to be completely raped by the banking industry where after an Australian had to come up and teach you how to properly handle money.

... and yet you still do not grasp the need for regulation and oversight in general :).


Regulate the market. End of story.


PS: Magicians are illusionists. Magic do not exist :P (Yes low blow)
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Espu on January 18, 2012, 02:46:38 pm
There is potentially a price bubble that might burst. Fortunately no one will lose their livelihood and it's all good fun! Say no to regulation!

Money offers for items would be very good though.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Nessaj on January 18, 2012, 03:39:10 pm
Sure, let the bubble burst, but that is not in favor of the overall community, only to those who will rank in a lot of gold based on this, for no other apparent reason than just having it and for what? For a "Free market"? :lol:

I personally have no stake or bias in this, I have a full set of heirlooms (generation 17) with 1 extra for trading plus gold enough to buy another. I'm set. I stopped retiring ages ago and I do not need or want anything, I'm where I want to be which is being able to log-on when I want to and play how I want to, there's no rat race for leveling to be able to play properly or participate in an event - just as I like it.

(click to show/hide)

Anyway I welcome our new heirloom overlords. May their reign be brutal and bloody.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Penitent on January 18, 2012, 03:57:45 pm
First of all, some inflation is good.  It keeps the market moving.  The reason there are new items being traded, offers being made, and any "fresh-ness" in the market is because people think they can buy items low, and sell them high (or trade items and "trade-up" to a nicer item) through wheeling and dealing.  If there was no inflation at all, the traders would stop trading to make a buck, and people with shitty items would be stuck, while people with good items would have less reason to trade or sell.

That being said, the inflated prices lately are really ridiculous.  This is due to supply, in my mind.  No, people are not deleting their looms...but there are less people playing than last fall.  There is less on the market.  The market has become sluggish, and shows early signs of solidifying.  What keeps it moving now is (1)traders with patience who can wait for a sale or trade, and (2)"re-balancing" game mechanics (nerfs and buffs) that prompt people to sell or trade because certain items have become more desirable.  There are also just those people who want to try different items for actual use, but that's a smaller percentage of of sellers and traders.

What can we do?  It's impossible to really regulate a market like this...and deflation would be very bad (because people would not sell or trade at all, risking a loss).  One easy step would be to allow people to offer gold with their trades, instead of just demanding gold.  This will be a shot in the arm for the market as people can really express the trades they want to make.  This has been suggested a couple times...it needs to be put in!  It's the easiest, most practical thing to do in order to help the market and keep it fun.

Other tentative suggestions:
-Make selling loom points an "official" part of the market.  Regulate a min/max price for the loom points only...this will help affect other loomed item prices, but not directly control them.  It's like putting a soft cap on prices.

-Allow alts access to the market, rather than a sacrifice.  This will bring more items in to play, and boost market vitality and movement....lowering or maintaining prices for a while.



Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Thomek on January 18, 2012, 04:20:56 pm
Allowing people to offer gold for items is an upcoming feature. This will help attaining reasonable prices.

Buying and selling loom points should be allowed. It will make it safer and make pricing better.

Trading with alts should not be allowed because it will make people stop retiring and just fill up their mains with looms from alts. Fighting lvl 33-34 veterans with fully loomed sets will be even more of a pain for newbies.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: BlameMeForTheNoise on January 18, 2012, 04:40:03 pm
Quote from: The_White_Lotus on January 18, 2012, 01:36:33 am
A problem I've notice in the market as it is, is the fact that you are not allowed to offer gold for a certain item. What this does is cause ONLY the sellers to dictate prices (which will ALWAYS be higher than what most people are willing to buy for). The only time sellers lower their prices is when they see other sellers selling the same item for cheaper. This is a bad system, plain and simple. If we allowed players to offer gold for certain items the sellers could see what prices people are willing to pay, which would make the market actually move. Right now, it takes weeks to make a sale or weeks to buy an item at a decent price.


this.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 18, 2012, 04:45:41 pm
I'm gen 4 (just retired) and I retired about a month ago with my 2nd gen.  I'm certainly not a buyer, but I was able to make some good money on the marketplace my first 2 retirements, AND still get the +1 items I was going to loom anyways, with an additional 100k in my pocket each time. 

Right now (after buying lots of items and going a full gen at 50k in gear) I have around 100k.  I used my 3rd loom to make an item +2.  This 100k will easily last me this gen, plus the next. 

I don't see the marketplace as being bad for new players, in fact when looms sell for 500-600k, you can really make a good chunk of money if you are a new player and keep you eye open for the item you want to loom (so you can sell the loom point and sometimes buy the item you want for under 300k depending on the item...that's awesome for new players).

And +100 for the white lotus...buyers being able to offer gold for items would be fucking awesome...
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 18, 2012, 05:18:26 pm
Personally, Im having lots of fun trading.

Not only because i can play with loomed items as one class, then another (without having to grind the new items) and then back if i dislike it, but also trading itself.
I feel more bored when I got no offers up / looking for offers.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Tydeus on January 18, 2012, 05:20:53 pm
So uhh... Why is no one mentioning strategus and converting strat gold to crpg gold by sending gold to relatives? This basically is the closest we'll ever get to "printing money" in the literal sense. It doesn't matter how much you play crpg or what gear you use, everyone has an equal footing in strategus and with so many clans going for peasant-medium gear, there's a lot of surplus gold that people are just converting into crpg gold.

Converting gold directly, rather than having a player buy strat goods with crpg gold doesn't add gold to the system, it just moves it around. This is probably why prices were stable during strat 2.0. If you could remove gold from the system somehow, maybe by buying looms from an "npc" or converting both ways(to and from strat), you'd see prices normalize.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 18, 2012, 05:22:28 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on January 18, 2012, 05:20:53 pm
So uhh... Why is no one mentioning strategus and converting strat gold to crpg gold by sending gold to relatives?

Because the Devs disabled that feature. Likely a bunch of people have forgotten about it now.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Herkkutatti on January 18, 2012, 05:24:28 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Penitent on January 18, 2012, 08:44:49 pm
Quote from: joosto on January 18, 2012, 05:24:28 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 
(click to show/hide)

oh shiiiit....
Lemme get 400k gold man, I'll be your friend.  Seriously.
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Herkkutatti on January 18, 2012, 08:48:35 pm
Quote from: Garison on January 18, 2012, 08:44:49 pm
oh shiiiit....
Lemme get 400k gold man, I'll be your friend.  Seriously.
  :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on January 18, 2012, 08:54:28 pm
Quote from: Nagasoup on January 18, 2012, 06:23:16 am
Ugh... yea... read my sentence right below that....
I musta missed that one, I apologize
Title: Re: Gold inflation ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 18, 2012, 09:13:44 pm
Quote from: joosto on January 18, 2012, 08:48:35 pm
  :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
(click to show/hide)

how you doin?