cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Cris on January 13, 2012, 12:45:57 am
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Hopefully this will get some Dev attention
Please read the whole post before posting.
Please note: Before raging because you already hate HAs, make a Skip the fun HA and shoot at "speed", try to aim and actually be good at it, then get your friend with good armor and see how many arrows it takes you to kill him.
After that join a Battle server for a few hours with a decent set of arrows, bow and horse look at that gold drop so fast that unless you have constant X5 its impossible to have a good horse, bodkins and bow and make a profit. (I run barbed arrows most of the time nowadays, and still lose money)
Then you will understand if this proposal would create an inbance.
Also, in case you doubt my experience with Horse Archery, Ive been one since the early early days :-P | It is also worth noticing that I do agree with nerf we got after the level restructure, and thats comming from the first Horse Archer on Plate armor in the old days :)
Proposal:
Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20%
Why? Well, any attempt to balance archery (nerfs), by default affects (nerfs) the already lower in damage Horse Archery class.
So HAs do a lot less damage than foot archers and have huge reticules at speed.
But you say "Hey, but HAs, including you already land a lot of shots" Yes, some do, some of us have played tons of hours and all our hard work has paid off :-P Practice practice practice. But, in many cases most HA slow down or stop before shooting, so the speed penalty does not apply in the same way, if at all, so boosting HA point benefits by 20% would not affect those shots.
Now, why 20%? Well, 20% would allow to have what in my experience is good accuracy for dedicated build at speed (No spare points at all) - Please note, by good accuracy I do not mean footarcher accuracy, what I mean it is not even close to that reticule.
I've have had HA up to 6 in my time, that with light/medium armour and an old courser along with 230+ wpp meant almost no penalty at speed (courser was 50 speed)
Increase HA penalty decrease by 20% would mean the average build with (4 HA points) would have the equivalent of 4.8HA now, so not as good as 5HA.
All of this would allow the following results to be possible, results that should be possible for any dedicated class on their own area:
-To allow the balanced build (HA4 PD5) to eliminate some of the randomness of the shots at high speed, whislt damage is still very low compared to foot archers.
-To allow those who want to almost completly eleminate the effect of speed penalty (HA5 and PD4/3) to be able to do so --> this builds does no damage and would have to rely on headshots to be effective, so not over powered, as with PD5 we already dont 1 shot people with heave helments.
Please note - Horse Archers do not benefit from their own speed for damage (No speed bonus, like melee cav or even infantery!). Hence, being able to shoot more acurately at higher speeds does not mean more damage. And with 20% increase, at mid and long range it means most people will still not hit you
Also, to those who would say "make HA every 3 agility points instead" -- It would be a good idea for Horse archers, it would mean trading some riding, PD or WM poitns for accuracy, reducing the damage. BUT, HA points are also used by mounted throwers and mounted crossbowmen. Mounted crossbowmen already do great pirce damage and can hold their aim as long as they want (they also do not need PD), hence HA every 3 agility points would allow them to take away the penalty and still have points for other thigns, thus making them an unbalanced class.
Please contructive comments.
If you hate Horse archery and will not post from a neutral point of view refrain from posting/trolling.
And remember, every archer neft hurts us more, and we already take 20 arrows to kill you in your nice and shiny armor :)
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If the next patch headshots-are-more-essential thing goes through I suppose this might very well make sense.
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So , with your suggestion being implemented, how many shots will it take for 5 gk HA to kill my champ. destrier, ~ ? Just asking.
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Same amounts of shots i think, it shouldn't make much difference to the damage, and horses are already super easy to shoot if you want to kill them, so it shouldn't make not real difference.
If they are good enough to hit the head each time it would be a bit easier to kill you horse, but if thats the case, I would rather just shoot your head and get your nice horse after someone kills mine :-P
A lot of GK already slow down a lot before they shoot other horses, specially if turning, so it wouldnt affect much that way.
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The problem here is that very, VERY few people actually want HA to be balanced. Bow HA I agree could use this kind of buff, but xbow HA can actually be pretty deadly as is, and this would benefit them too. IMO we need a buff for bow HA only, so unless this can be done I say keep it like it is now.
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Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do :P
We just want you to think you can catch us ;)
Also love the fact horse throwers are mentioned along with horse xbow's but somehow the horse thrower gets overshadowed by horse xbowers :P Way to put my misunderstood class down :( (seriously there is like 3 of us on Eu servers and 2 of them I havnt seen in months)
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Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do :P
We just want you to think you can catch us ;)
Also love the fact horse throwers are mentioned along with horse xbow's but somehow the horse thrower gets overshadowed by horse xbowers :P Way to put my misunderstood class down :( (seriously there is like 3 of us on Eu servers and 2 of them I havnt seen in months)
Lol I apologize, had completely forgotten about throwing HA... NERF THROWING HA!!! :P
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So , with your suggestion being implemented, how many shots will it take for 5 gk HA to kill my champ. destrier, ~ ? Just asking.
5 GK HA? We don't even have 5 any more :(
Besides, a big arse target like a horse is pretty impossible to miss unless the cav is weaving all over the place.
Anyway, as to the points:
1.
try to aim and actually be good at it, then get your friend with good armor and see how many arrows it takes you to kill him.
It is painful how long it takes to actually become consistent with horse archery. I've barely played my horse archer for the past 4 months and it tells. But as to the killing good armour, it takes a fuck load of arrows yes, but honestly when I get high scores as horse archery, it's because my focus isn't on getting kills until the later portions of a round. At first I concentrate on enemy cavalry, once they are out of the way (if I survive) I focus on infantry. Most of my kills come on either lightly armoured inf/archers, or heavier inf that is already damaged. It's rare that I'll get in a fight with someone who hasn't already lost a lot of health, so the kills aren't to hard.
2.
After that join a Battle server for a few hours with a decent set of arrows, bow and horse look at that gold drop so fast that unless you have constant X5 its impossible to have a good horse, bodkins and bow and make a profit.
This is true. I stopped playing with bodkins a long time ago and use barbs. This is the main reason. When I used bodkins after the price changes and the the break ability changes I lost 20k gold in 4 hours due to repairs. As soon as I switched to barbs my money remained steady.
3.
Why? Well, any attempt to balance archery (nerfs), by default affects (nerfs) the already lower in damage Horse Archery class.
So HAs do a lot less damage than foot archers and have huge reticules at speed.
But, in many cases most HA slow down or stop before shooting, so the speed penalty does not apply in the same way, if at all, so boosting HA point benefits by 20% would not affect those shots.
Again true. If these archery nerfs come into place then it'll effect HA quite heavily, more so than foot archers who can shoot more accurately. However, this also has to be carefully balanced. I really don't want to see a return to the huge thread calling for the nerf of HA that led to the original nerf. So maybe it could be possible to increase the effectiveness of HA by a smaller increment at first and then see how it goes.
I hate HA who slow and stop to shoot. The only time I do that is if I'm shooting at roof campers and want to get a careful shot, or if, I'm shooting into melee and really don't want to risk my own team getting pissed off at me so I want to take a careful shot. But both of those situations usually only occur right at the end of a round. Otherwise you may as well get off the damn horse. In my experience the HA who slow to stop are also the ones who die fastest because they aren't used to fighting at higher speeds. Certainly if 2 HA get into a fight against each other, the one who slows to shoot will be the one who dies. The one who is used to manoeuvring and shooting at speed will win (with the exception of this one guy a few months ago who always played on EU at 3am GMT...he had perfected the slowing to shoot thing and was stupidly frustrating).
I'm apprehensive to any changes these days. I'm tired of having to readjust and relearn because of some nerfs. But we will see what happens with archery and then I can make a better call. As of now I see no real need for this. I'm happy with HA.
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5 GK HA? We don't even have 5 any more :(
you sure about that ?
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you sure about that ?
Pretty sure...certainly not regular players :P And half of our HA switched to lancers or 1h for a while.
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Pretty sure...certainly not regular players :P
pretty wrong than
Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately :P
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pretty wrong than
Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately :P
Not to mention Kerrigan's recent try at HA :P
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Bit off topic but horse xbows should be removed from the game.
They are unrealistic, overpowered and make it almost impossible to balance HAs, since any change to HA is a change to HXbow.
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The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.
You know, all those arguments against roofcamping (unfair immunity to 66% of all players, etc.) apply for horse archers by default, as it's the idea of this class. In fact the combination of high mobility with the ability to engage over distance makes them a really strong class, and history showed that indeed it was one of the most successful military concepts of all times (according to the time they were used, of course).
In my eyes your immunity to melee combined with the ability of an archer to engage whoever you can see (instead of having to approach him) doesn't allow you to have the same amount of kills like other classes. You can be a support class at the most, like pikemen and hoplites.
This is why I am against any buff for horse archers. After the big fight of a round is over, you have to put yourself into the point of view of a shieldless infantryman, who is on the search of surviving enemies (and teammates). He has to move, and he has to look everywhere. If he gets caught on the open field by a horse archer (and horse archer survive almost ALWAYS, it's part of their nature), there is nothing more frustrating than this. It is the only class constellation where one player has literally no chance against another player. Full stone-siccors-paper-system, without the horse archer having a similar foe. There is not a single other class, that can be so frustrating for another certain class like horse archers.
Also medium and light cavalry is easy prey for horse archers, and heavy cavalry is at least harmless, althogh there is no real point in attacking it. Infantry is, as we already stated, absolutely inable to do you any harm, only the shieldmen are capable of protecting themselves a bit of your attacks. (I mean, think about this: a certain sub class is AT LEAST CAPABLE TO PROTECT ITSELF!). Crossbowmen are also no match if they missed their first shot, and throwers don't have the range to really harm you. The only real enemy to you are archers, and there are the chances about equal, as archers have the greater precision, but you are moving faster and don't need to stop for your shot.
With all these facts (correct me if I am wrong somewhere. The only thing I could discuss is that archers are no equal, but a little bit superior in a duel, but actually I don't think so. Especially as you can ride away and come back later, when he has changed his target long time ago) there is no other solution than to have HA have the least kills of all.
In my eyes horse archers should be treated very similarly to pikemen: a support class, meant to kill horses and support melee fighters. With the difference that a HA is more versatile than a pikeman and can survive 1 on 1 duels much better. The main task of horse archers should be killing the unarmoured enemy horses, and then harassing the enemy, be it reloading crossbowmen, distracted archers or (CAREFULLY!) supporting the infantry in melee by hitstunning their opponents. The class is not made for making real frags, I mean not even archers are, any more.
It is simply the price you have to pay for playing the most "efficient" class possible. Same as pikemen who really try to fend off cavalry, you won't (shouldn't) have a good K/D that shows your value for the team.
That's why I am against any buff for HA's. The risks they have to take are in no relation to the damage they can do, that's enough of a buff for that class.
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I played a HA with my first character in crpg. With 2 points in HA I was alright with hitting very often. I played my second HA character some months ago. I was still fine with 2 HA until lvl 30. Now I start playing my third HA (I am lvl 29 now and only have 2 points in riding, none in HA!) and still I notice aiming is quite nice. Sure, my horse sucks and my aim and damage could be much higher. But for the next gen I'll go HA directly at the beginning and a 100%. For now I am a 21/15 archer with 2 riding skill. Not that good. ;)
In comparison to other builds, the HA would need a buff. But seeing what Joker says, it shouldnt be buffed and he is actually right to say that the HA is more meant as support class. The Khergits in native might only have HA and Lancers and their strenght are obviously the HA, because in native the stats are much more higher so it is very easy to hit there (its like being a quite high skilled foot archer in crpg, just on horse). And they are there (in native) forbidden in most clan matches for a reason. I am happy there are HAs in crpg. Though of course I always hate getting killed/attacked by one in crpg, however I like them. Surely more than those xbow cavs... :P
But however, if archery gets nerfed, the HA will suffer from it, and should get a little buff if possible. Sadly the xbow cav would get buffed by that as well.
I am wondering if it was possible to split the Horse Archery skill points from xbow ones, to make two different stats of those. I dont know if it possible to do that, but if it was it could be worth a try I guess.
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Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do :P
I know right!
I for some silly reason find it hilarious to do slow loops with the steppe horse or try to do a 360° turn before firing an arrow. :D
Then shoot as the enemy cavalry attempt a full speed charge at my poor self.
Anyway, as to the points:
1.It is painful how long it takes to actually become consistent with horse archery. I've barely played my horse archer for the past 4 months and it tells. But as to the killing good armour, it takes a fuck load of arrows yes, but honestly when I get high scores as horse archery, it's because my focus isn't on getting kills until the later portions of a round. At first I concentrate on enemy cavalry, once they are out of the way (if I survive) I focus on infantry. Most of my kills come on either lightly armoured inf/archers, or heavier inf that is already damaged. It's rare that I'll get in a fight with someone who hasn't already lost a lot of health, so the kills aren't to hard.
2. This is true. I stopped playing with bodkins a long time ago and use barbs. This is the main reason. When I used bodkins after the price changes and the the break ability changes I lost 20k gold in 4 hours due to repairs. As soon as I switched to barbs my money remained steady.
3. Again true. If these archery nerfs come into place then it'll effect HA quite heavily, more so than foot archers who can shoot more accurately. However, this also has to be carefully balanced. I really don't want to see a return to the huge thread calling for the nerf of HA that led to the original nerf. So maybe it could be possible to increase the effectiveness of HA by a smaller increment at first and then see how it goes.
I agree with all these points.
1. To be honest I find the hardest thing with aiming the hitboxes, it feels like every round it takes one or two shots to notice roughly how much one has to compensate when aiming. Targets are of course always enemy cavalry and then any targets of opportunity(wounded, busy, etc).
2. As a mere 2nd Generation player I have only enough money for a horse(usually steppe), basic nomad gear, sometimes tartar arrows and my once loomed bow. It is not as if I am always playing with a x1 either... :cry:
3. I also have to agree with your final point, it would be perhaps better to try any changes in increments. I am quite happy with the way HA is now, as we fill a nice support role engaging enemy cavalry and disrupting the enemy formation/tactics at the cost of individual damage and accuracy. That being said depending on how it actually plays out if ranged damage is nerfed again, it might be logical to have a small increase in accuracy(HA).
In summary I think Cris raises an interesting and fair point. :D
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Although i am not a horse archer but according to mongolian archer's skill against the european knights i would agree with this statement. +1
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How about no
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I know right!
I for some silly reason find it hilarious to do slow loops with the steppe horse or try to do a 360° turn before firing an arrow. :D
Then shoot as the enemy cavalry attempt a full speed charge at my poor self.
I mean why do they think almost all of us use high manoeuvre horses? :P (and yes I count as ha :P)
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pretty wrong than
Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately :P
you missed toc, kalanie, surhay, (shish?)
and me :P you missed me :P
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The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.
Because a horse is the same as an indestructible building :rolleyes: The other important difference is the horse can be killed. It's all very well and good being mobile, but if your accuracy and damage out put isn't all that great then it's hardly much of a benefit. And it's not our fault if archers are to stupid to aim for our horses.
Regardless, like I said, this change should be considered if those other range changes come in, otherwise I do think there's no need.
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(and yes I count as ha :P)
You are the red headed step child of the HA family. I suspect Hentzi is your father...
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You are the red headed step child of the HA family. I suspect Hentzi is your father...
We should take this to Jeremy Kyle!
The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.
- ha cant use war bows / longbows / heavy xbows / arbalests making their damage output significantly weaker e.g to a war bow 2 body shots kill my champion arabian, to a mw horn bow it takes 4 shots give or take 1
- a horse is easily shot down, a building is not
- a horse does not equal cover, with a good bit of aiming you can hit the ha at all times, roof campers have large amounts of cover from the building (stepping back from the edge)
- a horse archer is far less accurate than a stationary roof camper
- horse archers (bar overdriven) rarely use coursers and can be prey to fast lancers
- horse archers have no height advantage on shielders, a good shielder can block fire from ha indefinately (ha bumps are very risky)
I think thats a good start ;)
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- ha cant use war bows / longbows / heavy xbows / arbalests making their damage output significantly weaker e.g to a war bow 2 body shots kill my champion arabian, to a mw horn bow it takes 4 shots give or take 1
- a horse is easily shot down, a building is not
- a horse does not equal cover, with a good bit of aiming you can hit the ha at all times, roof campers have large amounts of cover from the building (stepping back from the edge)
- a horse archer is far less accurate than a stationary roof camper
- horse archers (bar overdriven) rarely use coursers and can be prey to fast lancers
- horse archers have no height advantage on shielders, a good shielder can block fire from ha indefinately (ha bumps are very risky)
I think thats a good start ;)
I said similar, not equal to roof campers. And I meant it concerning infantry. A roofcamper and a horse archer are both enemies you can do literally nothing about. With the difference that the horse archer can follow you everywhere.
If you are ranged, things change of course, but for at least one third of the players a horse archer is literally unkillable, unless he makes some mistake.
And I would like to see the horse archer who gets followed by a light lancer (and knows this) and falls to him, before being able to shoot his horse dead.
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And I would like to see the horse archer who gets followed by a light lancer (and knows this) and falls to him, before being able to shoot his horse dead.
see Chagan for this one :P bastard somehow gets into their slipstream or some withcraft
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If you are ranged, things change of course, but for at least one third of the players a horse archer is literally unkillable, unless he makes some mistake.
Solutions:
- stick with the group
- use javelins
- use a shield
- try to dodge the arrows (is possible but well you will get annoyed of it easily)
- seek cover
if you are however on an open plain without any cover, you are lost and that is okay because then not the HA is the reason you die but the map.
I also find it hilarious that people whine about archers and shielders. A shield is a normal item to use in native, with a reason. Everyone has a shield there, even most archers. Sure, they have those stats by default but you could also put some points in shield skill if you want to. Javelins are nice to take down light horses or their light armored riders, surely youll also need skill points here.
But however, the people who choose to be pure 2handed sword users or polearms did it with a reason, and should face the fact that ranged builds have advantages over them. Once they however wasted all their arrows, the 2handed sword user/polearms are better than those, unless the archers are skilled enough in melee.
It is all about balance, and the HA is pretty much balanced imo. However when archery gets nerfed, HA needs a buff.
There are also not that many HAs as infantry in most teams. Usually matches (rounds) are decided by infantry anyway. Sometimes by archers.
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Solutions:
- stick with the group
- use javelins
- use a shield
- try to dodge the arrows (is possible but well you will get annoyed of it easily)
- seek cover
Does a horse archer have to rely that much on other players or equipment that doesn't typically belong to his class to be able to fight against a certain other class, or at least to not be completely defenseless?
It is simply unfair that some classes have to use more items than others to deal with the same percentage of enemies. Cavalry? Use a pike. Archers? Use a shield. Roofcampers? Use a ladder. Nice to see I have no slots left for actually playing my class.
if you are however on an open plain without any cover, you are lost and that is okay because then not the HA is the reason you die but the map.
That's not totally correct, because with other classes I have other results. Which means the fact that the horse archer is a horse archer matters very well.
Still, everything in my previous big posting is valid. Horse archers are by far the most versatile class, with the best chances of survival and yet not being limited in their choice of targets. I mean: which class is as good against horse archers as horse archers are against infantry? Answer: none. The only way to balance this is to nerf HA's down to the effectivity level of mosquitos, all they should be able to do is to sting people a bit and kill horses. Because everything else would be unbalanced.
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I mean: which class is as good against horse archers as horse archers are against infantry?
Ranged infantry easily counter HA, they can hit more accurately and with more damage. Even if they are a poor shot they can probably kill a horse faster than they can be killed or suppressed.
I disagree as well with your definition of good, if good is ability to harass and disrupt then yes HA is probably one of the best classes. If it is about killing then definitely not, in that case I would be far more inclined to choose lancer, 2H or even polearm.
Also this is simply not true:
yet not being limited in their choice of targets.
Anyone with a shield, good armor or ranged(due to their ability to easily dehorse all cavalry) is limited as a potential target...
Arguably even infantry that are aware of you are sometimes useless targets, if someone starts doing the "arrow dance" it often becomes a waste of time and arrows to engage.
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Shielder infantry are essentially invulnerable to an HA, unless you decide to spend two or three minutes trying to take one down.
Ranged, archers and even xbowman are extremely dangerous, if they can somewhat aim they will dehorse or kill you before you can really get a bead on them. They can hit more accurately and with far more damage.
You can't harm shielders, but they also can't harm you. And it's not like your mobility and your ability to fight over distance don't allow you to engage the shielder at any later moment, when he is not blocking towards your direction.
And the point about all the ranged fighters still applies for all the other classes, too. Everyone, except of shielders perhaps, can easily be killed by ranged fighters.
I want horse archers to tell me a class, if they meet it at the end of the round alone, letting them no chance of survival, let alone winning this fight.
And I want horse archers to list me up the equipment they need besides the basic horse archer stuff to not be defenseless against other classes, or even to be able to deal with them.
Anyone with a shield, good armor or ranged(due to their ability to easily dehorse all cavalry) is limited as a potential target...
Okay, I give you that, but still it's not comparable like a shieldman trying to engage a HA. Whereas the horse archer will do only little damage to the armoured opponent, the one handed shieldman has literally no chance of inflicting a single point damage.
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everyone who crys about HAs in this days is a big fat useless idiot.
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everyone who crys about HAs in this days is a big fat useless idiot.
Everyone who combines running away with fighting over safe distance is a coward without balls.
Now we insulted each other and nothing is gained.
I am not crying about horse archers, but I am definitely against a buff, they're good how they are.
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You can't harm shielders, but they also can't harm you. And it's not like your mobility and your ability to fight over distance don't allow you to engage the shielder at any later moment, when he is not blocking towards your direction.
And the point about all the ranged fighters still applies for all the other classes, too. Everyone, except of shielders perhaps, can easily be killed by ranged fighters.
I want horse archers to tell me a class, if they meet it at the end of the round alone, letting them no chance of survival, let alone winning this fight.
And I want horse archers to list me up the equipment they need besides the basic horse archer stuff to not be defenseless against other classes, or even to be able to deal with them.
So what if the same applies to all other classes? You cannot argue that HA have no good counter simply because they share common weakness of all cavalry or unshielded players...
Secondly, I find your proposed end round scenario silly. No class when faced with a 1 vs 1 is completely doomed, especially not with limited ammo and incurred damage. Mistakes can be made, the enemy can exploit the terrain or map to his advantage, etc.
HA dehorsed at end of round vs infantry...who wins?
HA out of arrows vs infantry...?
HA facing shielder w/spear with only a small amount of arrows?
HA facing heavy cavalry at end of round?
HA facing infantry in building or obstacles at end of round?
HA facing ranged infantry with good position at end of round?
Finally add any melee equipment as non HA things that we need to avoid being slaughtered in melee combat.
I would also like to note that as with many other threads, I find comparing 1 vs 1 situations pointless. In the standard battle round, 1 vs 1 combat makes up only a small portion of combat, we are as far as I know not discussing dueling. :D
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I wont reply to every argument because Joker86 you know how many times we've been through this is the history of cRPG :P
Now, a few quick points as form of replies to post:
-Ranged infantery should always kill a horse archer if they are good.
-About equipment (looking at you joker :P) Upkeep is huge for HA, a perfect example or archery nerf affecting HAs... I totally agree that footarchers lost almost no money with upkeep, so arrows braking more often is great to balanace that. But it is a huge kick for HAs, who already pay more than most people (Ive played melee characters and melee cav, so i know the costs)
-Horse archers are limited in their targets if you want to make kills (and dont we all?) - a HA will take most of his arrows to kill someone in decent armor, specially if they are mounted and riding away.
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But anyway. There is a reason why I said make a skip the fun horse archer and play it before replying here. Because some people clearly do not understand that this 20% boost per point to HA skill would do.
It would NOT increase our damage (at least not in a way that would make any change to our kills). We would still take 5+ arrows to kill anyone in armor.
It would NOT increase the accuracy of people who stop before shooting. At low speed the penalty makes almost no difference, if they cant hit you now, 20% increase will mean those who miss now will still miss, its more of a timing error than reticule error.
It would NOT mean Horse Archers would kill more horses. Horses are huge and already easy to kill for any HA that have been playing for more than 5 minutes. (specially since the shield magnet fix).
It would ONLY mean, that shooting at speed (which is what horse archery is all about, if you dont agree you might aswell just go on foot with a 100 accuracy bow) would be 20% less random.
If you try a horse archery build, you will see that 20% is fair and by no means accurate, the reticule would still be 'HUGE' :wink:
Also, if this headshot damage increase and body damage decrease change really comes our way, this 20%, this will not be even a buff, because even with 20% headshot will be just as tricky at speed.
As always, Test, the post.
Cris.
Ps. Sorry for kinda ignoring Horse throwers in the main post :D My support goes to those brave men who take the least accurate forme of ranged weapom, with the shortest range and then go on a horse. You have my respect :P
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everyone who crys about HAs in this days is a big fat useless idiot.
did you just call Cris an idiot ? :0
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there is no way to balance horse archers in this mod
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Everyone who combines running away with fighting over safe distance is a coward without balls.
Now we insulted each other and nothing is gained.
I am not crying about horse archers, but I am definitely against a buff, they're good how they are.
i cant run away with 0 athletics.
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did you just call Cris an idiot ? :0
ofc not. i mean horse archers deal with so a small damage, so that its useless to say something is wrong. but i didnt say someone said something wrong. and then i took a n a r r o w to t h e k n e e
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This boost would be very nice now that body shots do less damage :)
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/bump
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The ideas make sense, only problem I foresee as Cris says is the horse xbowman problem. Personally, I find them to be more annoying and more deadly (due to the high dmg of xbows in comparison to bows). A pure horse xbowman can have 5 HA, 10 riding, 10 wpf (I think). They're already very accurate and with a aiming buff to HA they'll be even more deadly.
So unless one can separate between the two I feel there shouldn't be an accuracy buff (though I really do want one, my archer used to be an HA but he got really sad at bouncing off armour).
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I now fully support this.
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I mean: which class is as good against horse archers as horse archers are against infantry? Answer: ....
Archers: They RAPE Horsearchers
Shielders with Javs: Absolutely rape all cav.
Aware players: rape all unaware players.
You dont care about balance Joker, you only care that your hero class has an easy ride. Get fucked.
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Archers: They RAPE Horsearchers
Shielders with Javs: Absolutely rape all cav.
Aware players: rape all unaware players.
You dont care about balance Joker, you only care that your hero class has an easy ride. Get fucked.
And what is my hero class?
But sure, you got me on this one. You are totally right, if the horse archer decides to not ride away from enemy archers or throwers who try to attack him, he gets raped the same way like infantry that decides not to ride away from a horse archers who tries to attack them... HEY! WAIT A MINUTE! :? :wink:
And being unaware is of no interest at all, because it is the "worst" possible scenario and should not be taken into account during balancing. Except the case that even an unaware player could survive a carefully aimed attack from any other class, which shouldn't be the case.
I don't like if I write a really large post about why I think horse archers must not be made too powerful, and still I get accused of only wanting to push my own class? :cry:
If archers are you worst enemy, then the new patch allowed you to live longer than usual, which lets you shoot more arrows than before, in difference to the archers, who live the same time, or if anything, shorter now. Which means all in all that the damage debuff didn't hit you as hard as the archers. Rejoice! :P
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joker that is plain silliness, really.
HAs that live longer is because they know how to ride, we still get the speedbonus on horse agaisnt us...personally, since ive been a HA, ive usually managed to be in the last few to die, thanks to my courser. Ive done the same as melee cav too. Its called calculated risk.
this new lower body damage, plus lower damage (20%) which is the price we pay for being on a horses [did you know that btw?) its a huge nerf for HAs, plus the only chance of getting real kills is with a headshot, something very hard to do while moving, its a huge nerf...
How can you possibly say we should rejoice? We can pretty much only kill other HAs and peasants without using half our arrows.
So again, a 20% bonus increase to our accuracy would be nice, but its nothing close to makes us powerful, not even a little bit.
Besides, i can recall very clealy how you typed in caps in the ingame chat how you "LOVE" the archer nerf...We get it, you hate archers, so you hate archers on horses even more. That doesnt mean that we are balanced this like this.
I would love to see how melee players who hate archers would like to have to hits their low armored enemies 10 times before they die...its really fun to see people complaing about Agility spammers being OP, or Str players being OP and so on... that never achieves balance...
Here I posted an idea that goes toward good balance, it doesnt even talk about higher damage, and yet you cannot even see that... It makes you think about what you really want out this skill based game, an easy ride? :P
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Well, the point is I don't want horse archers to make more kills than they already do, because they have a different role in the team, not pure kill making. I compared them a bit to pikemen - pikemen don't make a lot of kills, and yet they are really important for their team.
I now decided to go hoplite, and I don't know how many really good 2hd fighters I managed to hit stun because they underestimated my reach, and then they got finished off by their real duelling enemies, but still I don't get a single frag (=reputation) point for this. Same with horses, not a single round where I don't stop or kill a horse, and the rider then gets killed afterwards, but almost never by me.
I think horse archers share the same fate. They can kill unarmoured horses, and they can hit stun enemies who are currently fighting, but they won't get many kills, and they shouldn't, as only good archers are actually capable of killing a good horse archer, and this has to be balanced out somehow.
And the "rejoice" thing was not meant that seriously, I hoped the smiley at the end made this clear :wink:
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trust me when I say this, a 20% boost will not get us many more kills, it wouldnt at all guarantee headshots if you aim right. It'd only take some of the randomness away from the shot; it wouldnt even guanrantee a headshot.
No one is asking to make HAs a killing machine like pre level nerf :P
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Well, a compromise I could live with would be to increase the amount of horse archery skill points you can spend for your agility. 5 or 4 agility points per horse archery point would be acceptable, I think.
But first let's see how the developers will decide about the last archer neft, because there are good chances they will revert the changes, at least to a certain degree.
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Well, a compromise I could live with would be to increase the amount of horse archery skill points you can spend for your agility. 5 or 4 agility points per horse archery point would be acceptable, I think.
But first let's see how the developers will decide about the last archer neft, because there are good chances they will revert the changes, at least to a certain degree.
I totally agree, it would even allow worse bows to be viable. My only worry would be making horsecrossbowmen too OP with that, since they have lots of free skill points to spend...
Some people have suggested dividing HA points into 2 different skill sets -an archery-only set and a crossbow-only set
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I think it is very difficult to change the skill system, although WSE allows amlost everything. :?
I can't really tell anything about the difference between horse archers and horse crossbowmen, as those classes always seemed equal to me, if anything the horse archer still being slightly favoured, as a lot of fast shots with less damage are to prefer over few, slow and powerful shots, in my eyes, as it is also important to regularly interrupt the enemy, and the results will always be closer to the statistic middle (?), chances are much lower you will have "bad luck" with your shots.
I think if the recent archer nerf will be reverted, everthing will be fine again, anyway...
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Needs doing.