cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 08:00:44 pm

Title: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 08:00:44 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/830/ladders.png/)

http://bugtracker.c-rpg.net/view.php?id=20#c44

 :shock:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: ThePoopy on January 10, 2012, 08:03:51 pm
whining wins again  :twisted: :lol:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Gurnisson on January 10, 2012, 08:04:52 pm
Siege too? :lol:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: JackieChan on January 10, 2012, 08:06:05 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Spawny on January 10, 2012, 08:06:24 pm
Siege too? :lol:

That would make attacking most castles rather... interesting.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 08:06:39 pm
The first great step to a better cRPG

Cheers devs!
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 08:09:37 pm
whining wins again  :twisted: :lol:

So you are saying there is no justified negative feedback from the community that makes developers improve things that are wrong/broken?
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: BlackMilk on January 10, 2012, 08:11:30 pm
FINALLY!
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2012, 08:13:35 pm
Should add ladders that are indestructible on a few battle maps, like in siege but just placed on a few roofs so archers can get some cover but not be unreachable. Would require someone to edit all the battle maps tho.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 08:14:27 pm
It's a lie, I just placed a ladder in eu 1.

 :cry:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 08:28:17 pm
Probably the servers need an update or something like that. Give it some time.  :wink:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: okiN on January 10, 2012, 08:30:33 pm
That would make attacking most castles rather... interesting.

I hope so, because ladders have made defending (or rather, vainly attempting to defend) some of the castles rather uninteresting.

It might be this move will turn out to be overkill, but it's worth a shot. If it just leads to new problems, the maps that are broken by ladders will probably just have to be redone or removed.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Ujin on January 10, 2012, 08:31:22 pm
O_Q








Let's see if it works =).
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: cmp on January 10, 2012, 08:39:20 pm
It's a lie, I just placed a ladder in eu 1.

 :cry:

cRPG - NEW VERSION (Not Yet Released)
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 08:40:23 pm
I know, but saw my game being updated and really expected it to be in already. Still love you.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Xant on January 10, 2012, 08:42:27 pm
Awww yisss.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Kansuke on January 10, 2012, 08:44:15 pm
In before some clan QQing because they can't instawin "teamplay" on siege with backladder tactic.

Can't wait for this update !
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Nehvar on January 10, 2012, 09:06:40 pm
cRPG - NEW VERSION (Not Yet Released)

Sweet, merciful crap, yes.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 09:11:51 pm
It's just a pity that it took that (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtkE1ug0AMha9SsenmLfDYY-A0iDCWkoqEaqCpKnH4PqJIXtif7eefqTynxxzl-DzkaI5LPT0VCCzBHJ7gLTzDBe6QhKzoIQofMCAZuhYZxgKDkirUYIpMTJKhHfIAZSM16dB6qCNTGd5BBB28R-pgLYRmkAxhxpEUwikJiZw1GYmQEi2McsaVt-v6O87r_XuJPd5nbD-Xr5j3cX0sf0QnWes-lltlVGKb34RRjSVeLzhRTHW-EjY17uszPpaplKhb8w9K6VFK;start=0) long...  :?
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 10, 2012, 09:13:26 pm
whining wins again  :twisted: :lol:

Bullshit that people bitching and complaining always get catered to.  I honestly wish the dev's would just ignore people complaining unless they have a valid argument, and specifically only in regards to bugs and glitches.

I don't ever use ladders on infantry or being a horseman, that being said it seems pretty obvious why someone would use a ladder...certain classes and equipment have strengths and weaknesses, just because something is a strength, doesn't mean that it needs to be nerfed...just because whiny bitches complain about everything, doesn't mean that you need to nerf everything.

pathetic.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Remy on January 10, 2012, 09:19:31 pm
Most interesting.  :D
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 09:20:14 pm
Bullshit that people bitching and complaining always get catered to.  I honestly wish the dev's would just ignore people complaining unless they have a valid argument, and specifically only in regards to bugs and glitches.

I don't ever use ladders on infantry or being a horseman, that being said it seems pretty obvious why someone would use a ladder...certain classes and equipment have strengths and weaknesses, just because something is a strength, doesn't mean that it needs to be nerfed...just because whiny bitches complain about everything, doesn't mean that you need to nerf everything.

pathetic.

So you are saying there is no justified negative feedback from the community that makes developers improve things that are wrong/broken?
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: cmp on January 10, 2012, 09:21:12 pm
It's just the usual:
like the change -> omg best devs ever
hate the change -> omg devs listening to whiners
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 10, 2012, 09:23:03 pm
Joker86 - from what I've seen, mainly no.  Most of the arguments I saw (and I'd say I read about 50% of the pages in most of the recent whining threads) people resort to saying something is overpowered, or unbalanced, but don't explain how (if you say something is overpowered, explain to me if there is no counter-measure to defend against it).  I've yet to see anyone ever justify how something is overpowered.

You think ladders are OP?  Bring a ladder yourself.  You think archers on rooftops are OP?  Put some archers on a rooftop yourself. 

As a general rule of thumb, every class can be countered by AT LEAST that same class, generally at least 1 or 2 other builds/classes as well.

I'll state it again, nothing in the game ever has been, or ever will be that overpowered that there is no way to counter it's strengths.  Every class or build or technique has a weakness that can be exploited.  I'm just tired of the answer to every issue is to "nerf" something. 

It's just the usual:
like the change -> omg best devs ever
hate the change -> omg devs listening to whiners

That's why you and the other devs fail so often.  You don't understand there's other view points than "nerf or buff".   You missed an option:

Those who don't have a preference or aren't affected by the change.  I honestly don't care if ladders are in game or not, my argument is that it's ridiculous that changes keep being made to satisfy whiney bitches who can't ever justify why something is overpowered.    I don't love the change, I don't hate the change, I'm neutral.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Christo on January 10, 2012, 09:23:23 pm
O_Q

Haha, that's how I feel too.

Amazing job.

\o/
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 09:25:11 pm
It's just the usual:
like the change -> omg best devs ever
hate the change -> omg devs listening to whiners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_U6mWu1XQA

(click to show/hide)
First of all, the overpoweredness, lameness, funkillingness of ladders is so obvious that it shouldn't be explained. But actually I did, countless of times, with me 15 other players. And even then, an hour of play on EU_1 explains it just as well. This whole statement of yours here is so wrong, but I can't be arsed anymore. Justice is what we've seen here today. A great leap forward in cRPG greatness. Shut up and enjoy ladderless play! Woohoo!
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Xant on January 10, 2012, 09:27:53 pm
don cmp
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 10, 2012, 09:31:49 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_U6mWu1XQA
First of all, the overpoweredness, lameness, funkillingness of ladders is so obvious that it shouldn't be explained. But actually I did, countless of times, with me 15 other players. And even then, an hour of play on EU_1 explains it just as well. This whole statement of yours here is so wrong, but I can't be arsed anymore. Justice is what we've seen here today. A great leap forward in cRPG greatness. Shut up and enjoy ladderless play! Woohoo!

It's not overpowered for the reasons I stated.  You can bring your own ladders to counter enemy archers on roofs.  You can counter it by using your own ranged to shoot at them.  You can counter it by not standing out in the open without a shield and waiting for the flags to spawn.

Every equipment, class or style of play has its' strengths, and it's weaknesses.  When you show me equipment, a class, or a playstyle that has no weaknesses that can be exploited, then I'll say that discussing a nerf is logical.  Otherwise I'll disagree every time.

Just because someone is trying to take advantage of their classes strengths doesn't make it overpowered, it means they have at least a shred of common sense.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 09:42:33 pm
Joker86 - from what I've seen, mainly no.  Most of the arguments I saw (and I'd say I read about 50% of the pages in most of the recent whining threads) people resort to saying something is overpowered, or unbalanced, but don't explain how (if you say something is overpowered, explain to me if there is no counter-measure to defend against it).  I've yet to see anyone ever justify how something is overpowered.

You think ladders are OP?  Bring a ladder yourself.  You think archers on rooftops are OP?  Put some archers on a rooftop yourself. 

As a general rule of thumb, every class can be countered by AT LEAST that same class, generally at least 1 or 2 other builds/classes as well.

I'll state it again, nothing in the game ever has been, or ever will be that overpowered that there is no way to counter it's strengths.  Every class or build or technique has a weakness that can be exploited.  I'm just tired of the answer to every issue is to "nerf" something. 


The sheer existance of a counter doesn't make things BALANCED. To have BALANCED things, chances must be EQUAL (in general, given there are some rock-paper-siccor-mechanisms)

And if infantry brings an own ladder (which adds only a lot of weight, slowing you down and takes away precious item slots, so it's a bad solution!) it either gets destroyed by the archers before the infantry can get up, or even worse, the archers let them come up and shoot them to bits.

- It is completely unfair that infantry has to take the same item like archers only to take away an advantage archers gain from maps, and infantry doesn't have a single similar benefit from any map, except of pure "narrow alley" maps. In other words: if archers take a ladder they have a massive benefit from it. If infantry takes a ladder it has a slightly better chance to remove a massive benefit from enemy archers. Really?

- It is plain retarded to have archers being invulnerable to 50-66% of the enemy team until the end of the round.

- Infantry CAN use houses, too, to go into cover, but in difference to archers using houses they can't participate in the battle any more

- It is part of the basic class balance, that archers can attack infantry over distance, but once the infantry reaches the archers, they most likely will die. Roofcamping breaks this balance

- You can't simply "ignore" roofcampers and look for other targets. It is the most resonable thing to first kill the weakest enemies who can deal the most damage, which puts archers on a high position in the target priority list, but if they sit on a roof you can't do shit about it as they are standing above you and shoot your team to bits.

- Archers on a rooftop have noone to fear, in worst case someone can attack them at equal chances, so there is noone who has BETTER chances against them... I mean... WTF? Everyone else has a class he is weak against!


The only arguments FOR roofcamping I heard were:

- It's smart to take advantage of your sorroundings, it's okay to use natural benefits, so it's okay to roofcamp

But the same way you can argument:

- it's smart to use doping in sport, you benefit from it, so it's okay to dope

While correct in itself it still shows a massive amount of "dickness"...

I hope those are enough arguments for you to show that roofcamping IS OP.

And if you don't care about something, how can you know it's only whining and not justified?

You know, it's not like I want to attack you in any way, or to "prove I was right", but I feel somehow offended if I get named a whiner only because of complaining about an obvious and undeniably unfair advantage of a particular class over all other classes.  :?

Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: cmp on January 10, 2012, 09:44:37 pm
Those who don't have a preference or aren't affected by the change.  I honestly don't care if ladders are in game or not, my argument is that it's ridiculous that changes keep being made to satisfy whiney bitches who can't ever justify why something is overpowered.    I don't love the change, I don't hate the change, I'm neutral.

Funny thing is, right now you are the whiney bitch.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Christo on January 10, 2012, 09:46:34 pm
whiney bitches who can't ever justify why something is overpowered.

Then what the hell is this?

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23768.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23768.0.html)

11 God damn pages.

Read it.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 10, 2012, 09:47:58 pm
Funny thing is, right now you are the whiney bitch.


Yes, I'm whining about listening to the whiners.  So it is ironic.  I just think that you guys think the answer to every balance issue is to nerf something, which in turns causes other things to become unbalanced, and then to fix that new issue, you guys do another nerf. 

At some point in time everything will be nerfed to hell.  Ever read or watched Harrison Bergeron?  I equate their efforts at making things balanced with the c-rpg mod.  The answer to balance issues isn't to nerf everything.

Every class has inherit strengths and weaknesses, to suggest that every strength needs to be nerfed is retarded.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 09:51:09 pm
It's not overpowered for the reasons I stated.  You can bring your own ladders to counter enemy archers on roofs.  You can counter it by using your own ranged to shoot at them.  You can counter it by not standing out in the open without a shield and waiting for the flags to spawn.

I already falsified the ladder argument. Not everyone is ranged, and I bet game-design-wise infantry is also supposed to be able to fight ranged fighters, isn't it? And hiding somewhere is not countering something. Killing it is. (That's why pikes are not a real counter to cav, only an "obstacle")

Every equipment, class or style of play has its' strengths, and it's weaknesses.  When you show me equipment, a class, or a playstyle that has no weaknesses that can be exploited, then I'll say that discussing a nerf is logical.  Otherwise I'll disagree every time.

As I said, the "worst" counter for roofcampers are enemy archers, and there chances are equal. If at all, as roofs usually provide good cover. Or show me something they are really weak against. Or how would you exploit roofcampers?

Just because someone is trying to take advantage of their classes strengths doesn't make it overpowered, it means they have at least a shred of common sense.

Look at the doping-argument.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Christo on January 10, 2012, 09:51:30 pm
Tell me, what got nerfed Cracka, you e-peen?

Seriously, nothing got nerfed.

Being skilled at ranged will reward those players more, and unskilled ones will quit it because they can't roofcamp for free kills.

Your point being? The topic I linked has well written material about the subject. Some QQ, yes, but most is usable.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Jacko on January 10, 2012, 10:10:52 pm
So much drama over some dev trolling.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: MrShine on January 10, 2012, 10:15:55 pm
To re-balance archers after this change I propose they be given the option to shoot ladder-arrows.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Tzar on January 10, 2012, 10:25:53 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/830/ladders.png/)

http://bugtracker.c-rpg.net/view.php?id=20#c44

 :shock:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Cant wait for all the laughable arguments as to why roof camp is fair comments grabs popcorn's...
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: okiN on January 10, 2012, 10:32:55 pm
It's not overpowered for the reasons I stated.  You can bring your own ladders to counter enemy archers on roofs.  You can counter it by using your own ranged to shoot at them.  You can counter it by not standing out in the open without a shield and waiting for the flags to spawn.

You're entirely right in saying that it makes perfect sense for archers to do it, and that there are potential counters to it including, but not necessarily limited to, using the same tactic yourself.

However, none of these things means that the phenomenon of roof camping doesn't detract from fun gameplay, let alone that enabling this tactic actually adds a worthwhile element to the game.

I also find it hard to understand why your response to the change would be so passionate if you really didn't care about it personally.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 10:33:52 pm
So much drama over some dev trolling.
I hadn't even considered this. No, even they wouldn't, or would they? Oh fuck.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Ozin on January 10, 2012, 10:38:08 pm
I have seen the holy code with mine own eyes. Aye, it is indeed true.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: bredeus on January 10, 2012, 10:39:23 pm
God wills it!
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Osiris on January 10, 2012, 10:49:43 pm
no need to remove ladders from siege :D battle hell yes. but siege O.o. i mean it makes sense as no army would take a siege ladder to a pitched battle but castles would be too hard to take
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: bonekuukkeli on January 10, 2012, 10:51:58 pm
Ok. Let's start whining about horses next. All those flat maps can (after patch) sweep all archers and infantry easily.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Teeth on January 10, 2012, 11:03:30 pm
Ok. Let's start whining about horses next. All those flat maps can (after patch) sweep all archers and infantry easily.
Never played an open plains map before? I'll tell you how it goes. The two teams stick together, put down siege shields and skirmish. Cav, killhungry and impatient as they are, go play with the enemy cav, the bulk of them dies. The remaining cav go on to charge at the two infantry/archer blobs and get killed. 3 minutes into the battle and no (except a few that have brains) cav are left alive.

Cav does not dominate on flat maps, except maybe when you get Chagan and his henchmen who conserve their power till the two infantry blobs crash into eachother, they get amazing scores, but don't they deserve it really?
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: gazda on January 10, 2012, 11:18:52 pm
this change is so big that i dare to say it is even bigger change then when they made multi colour coat of plates armours.
im shocked
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 10, 2012, 11:37:51 pm
They should bring back ladderpulting. That way you can A team your way onto the building or ladderpult everyone off it :D
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: bredeus on January 10, 2012, 11:39:29 pm
finally archers will be forced to cooperate with melee class to stay alive
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on January 10, 2012, 11:45:11 pm
Ok. Let's start whining about horses next. All those flat maps can (after patch) sweep all archers and infantry easily.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: bredeus on January 10, 2012, 11:48:43 pm
let them come :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Sawbone on January 11, 2012, 12:33:56 am
oh sweet :)

Many thanks for this improvement - keep up the good work! Range has lost none of its efficiency, but has now become much more challenging to play I believe. Battlefield awareness is now required on every map.


Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 11, 2012, 12:43:15 am
The dev's idea of balance is making it so that any class can have an equal shot at a 1v1 with any other class.  That's not balance, it's insanity. 

I just wish instead of nerfing classes natural strengths, they would tell the cry babies to suck it up and learn how to counter it with tactics.

You're entirely right in saying that it makes perfect sense for archers to do it, and that there are potential counters to it including, but not necessarily limited to, using the same tactic yourself.

However, none of these things means that the phenomenon of roof camping doesn't detract from fun gameplay, let alone that enabling this tactic actually adds a worthwhile element to the game.

I also find it hard to understand why your response to the change would be so passionate if you really didn't care about it personally.

My passion really has nothing to do with the ladders, and is probably more suited towards other actual nerfs.  Removing a piece of equipment isn't necessarily a nerf to ranged.  I honestly never use ladders, I'm almost 100% on a horse, and when I'm on foot I never climb up a ladder.  I also don't particularly think teammates on a roof are helping people as much as they could be on foot next to a spearman or sword and boarder.  So if I had to say I'm probably more favorable towards removing the ladder personally.

But I'm able to put my personal feelings aside and realize that this is a bigger picture debate.  It always seems like when enough people cry about something being OP or unbalanced then the devs decide to nerf something (again, nothing in the game is OP or unbalanced because at minimum you can counter with the same class or playstyle).  And then it always has unintended consequences.  You nerf pikes and long spears, and then people start bitching there's too much cavalry.  You make arrows go from pierce to cut, and then you wonder why everyone's running around in tin cans.  I mean seriously...I really don't think anything in the game was ever so overpowered that it required a nerf.  You could argue that in native Khergits are overpowered on open field battles (not sieges), but you can't in c-rpg, because you can counter them by going horse archer (or horse lancer) yourself.  Not to mention you can pull out a pike wall and have your own archers in the middle. 

The tactics for countering a classes natural strengths are only limited to your imagination and teamwork.  For me, I'm so passionate about this ladder issue really has nothing to do with ladders, but the overall movement of C-RPG and how it's nerf nerf nerf until everyone is able to 1v1 each other and have an equal chance.  I'm sorry, but a group of archers can and should get destroyed by a group of cavalry.  A group of pikemen should be able to stop a group of cavalry.  A group of archers should destroy a group of 2h's standing in the open field. 

Seriously, nobodies ever read or watched the book/movie Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut? 

Funny thing is, right now you are the whiney bitch.

And I know I already responded to this, but I thought about it more and it's actually more in depth than that.  My stance is that you shouldn't listen to people whining, and leave the game alone (how many years has c-rpg been around, you'd think that you'd have this "class balance" thing figured out, or you think you'd realize that every class has strengths and weaknesses, and every class has a natural counter-measure to defend against it.)

Basically I'm whining that you shouldn't listen to people whining.  Just because someone shouts the loudest, doesn't make them right.  It'd also be nice to hear your opinion on how every time you end up nerfing something, it "breaks" something else and causes another perceived  imbalance. 
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Renay on January 11, 2012, 12:44:27 am
NO! NOT THE LADDERS!  :evil:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Kafein on January 11, 2012, 12:57:33 am
Why didn't they listened to me  :cry:


Instead of removing ladders, I suggested many times to add a similar feature for other classes. My idea was the ability to dig down caves for infantry, allowing them to somehow attack people on the ground and be immune to ranged and cav even while attacking. And the ability for cav to become invisible (actually it was to fly, but that isn't enough against ranged), that would acheive the same thing as ladders and the game would be balanced.

Only if those two features were implemented, then the 3 main classes would be on an even ground, each one having the ability to attack the two others while being immune to them (without the need of the other classes of your team to protect you, exactly like roofs).

But I'm happy with the ladders gone too.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 11, 2012, 01:01:15 am
Just one more nail in the face

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square.

GO FUCK YOURSELVES
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: SilentJoe on January 11, 2012, 01:01:28 am
Brilliant ideas Kafein. Also increase two handed weapons and polearms length drastically and make them pass through friendly troops and damage only enemies!

 :P :lol:
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Kafein on January 11, 2012, 01:06:00 am
Brilliant ideas Kafein. Also increase two handed weapons and polearms length drastically and make them pass through friendly troops and damage only enemies!

 :P :lol:

Well my suggestions were only logical.

You could argue that in native Khergits are overpowered on open field battles (not sieges), but you can't in c-rpg, because you can counter them by going horse archer (or horse lancer) yourself.

Of course, let's then apply this to everything. Imagine there's a new weapon that allows you to kill the entire enemy team instantly, from your spawn, without moving and only by holding one button. That's not overpowered at all, since you can use it yourself :rolleyes:.

If this is your definition of overpowered, then nothing is overpowered. No matter what it is. Therefore the word doesn't mean anything.

The point of balance is that the game shouldn't be dominated by any particular choice, not that there exists at least one option that counters a particular choice, especially when you can include that choice itself in the countering options.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 11, 2012, 01:10:45 am
Well my suggestions were only logical.

Of course, let's then apply this to everything. Imagine there's a new weapon that allows you to kill the entire enemy team instantly, from your spawn, without moving and only by holding one button. That's not overpowered at all, since you can use it yourself :rolleyes:.

If this is your definition of overpowered, then nothing is overpowered. No matter what it is. Therefore the word doesn't mean anything.

The point of balance is that the game shouldn't be dominated by any particular choice, not that there exists at least one option that counters a particular choice, especially when you can include that choice itself in the countering options.

Ok so throw that out then.  Every class can be countered by another class.  Like I've been trying to say (but apparently failing at conveying): I don't think the answer to balance is to nerf things, I think it's up to the teams and players to find out the natural weakness/es of a class and exploit it.  Not cry on the forums that they keep dying to ranged, or 2h, or cav, or whatever.

And I gave the definition that I did because like you paraphrased my argument: nothing is overpowered, ever because it can be countered by the same class (and every class and play style also has another class or play style that can counter it).  But as a general rule of thumb, every class can counter that same class.

Why didn't they listened to me  :cry:


Instead of removing ladders, I suggested many times to add a similar feature for other classes. My idea was the ability to dig down caves for infantry, allowing them to somehow attack people on the ground and be immune to ranged and cav even while attacking. And the ability for cav to become invisible (actually it was to fly, but that isn't enough against ranged), that would acheive the same thing as ladders and the game would be balanced.

Only if those two features were implemented, then the 3 main classes would be on an even ground, each one having the ability to attack the two others while being immune to them (without the need of the other classes of your team to protect you, exactly like roofs).

But I'm happy with the ladders gone too.

Every class shouldn't be able to 1v1 every other class.   An archer should be weak in melee vs infantry and cavalry, but strong when at a distance.  Cav should be strong against archers and short wielding melee weapons, they should be weak if a group of archers is lining up on them, and they should be weak vs pikemen.  2h's should have the advantage over a support class like sword/board or hoplites, but they should be weak to archers and cavalry. 

But instead everyone thinks that the fix to "balance" means that every class should be able to have an equal chance in a 1v1 versus every other class.  It really is a retarded progression.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Vodner on January 11, 2012, 01:22:44 am
Quote
Every class shouldn't be able to 1v1 every other class
Yes, they absolutely should. A good player of any class should never, ever die in a 1v1 confrontation because of some rock paper scissors nonsense. A 1v1 confrontation should be decided solely by skill.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Overdriven on January 11, 2012, 01:24:44 am
Yes, they absolutely should. A good player of any class should never, ever die in a 1v1 confrontation because of some rock paper scissors nonsense. A 1v1 confrontation should be decided solely by skill.

So lets all take wooden sticks and see who's best over and over and over.

This kind of speak reeks individuality. I like to play as a team, and having classes so that you can't beat each other 1vs1 archer vs melee ect (although there's always a chance if you're good enough) encourages team play.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Kafein on January 11, 2012, 01:25:46 am
Ok so throw that out then.  Every class can be countered by another class.  Like I've been trying to say (but apparently failing at conveying): I don't think the answer to balance is to nerf things, I think it's up to the teams and players to find out the natural weakness/es of a class and exploit it.  Not cry on the forums that they keep dying to ranged, or 2h, or cav, or whatever.

Okay (honestly I was sure that wasn't what you really wanted to say and I'm happy you made things clear).

But still, even though part of the whining comes from a lack of willingness to adapt, it can't be the only reason. This is very clear when you compare the amount of whining about ladders, and the amount of whining about, let's say... heavy armor ? Obviously, the whining about ladders is bigger than the one about heavy armor. And obviously too, the "problem" of ladders is bigger than that of heavy armor. What I'm trying to say is that whining doesn't come out of nothing. Is there whining about things that are actually unused/completely UP ? No. Whining posts about throwing weapon secondary modes ? About sumpter horses ?

Even if subjectivity is part of "whining", you can't dismiss it by arguing it is entirely based on subjective experiences. Because it's obviously not when you compare the amount of whining about real, objective problems, and the amount about things that are objectively balanced or underpowered. This is true at the individual scale (everybody is partly subjective but usually tries to be objective) and even more so when you have many people telling the same thing.

Two last points. First, you can't argue that some classes (2h, archers, whatever) will whine more and others less when confronted to the same perceived balance problems, neither can you say that some classes are more active on the forums. The people that play are statistically the same.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Kafein on January 11, 2012, 01:50:25 am
Every class shouldn't be able to 1v1 every other class.   An archer should be weak in melee vs infantry and cavalry, but strong when at a distance.  Cav should be strong against archers and short wielding melee weapons, they should be weak if a group of archers is lining up on them, and they should be weak vs pikemen.  2h's should have the advantage over a support class like sword/board or hoplites, but they should be weak to archers and cavalry. 

But instead everyone thinks that the fix to "balance" means that every class should be able to have an equal chance in a 1v1 versus every other class.  It really is a retarded progression.

Hey, that's not my point. The problem with ladders isn't that archers are strong at a distance. It's that they are too strong in "melee". For many reasons. Ladders only add to this. First, bows are shotguns that do incredible damage at close ranges. Second, due to engine limitations, turning your aim around doesn't decrease your accuracy, even though it should (probably to the point you would have to draw your bow again, for archers). Third, ranged allows for more movement speed and acceleration, allowing ranged to run from melee and to dodge cavalry easily. This also increases their duel abilities (mace + 15/24 = quite easy to take down a single melee opponent, if you use your agility). And fourth, the ladders that make them virtually immune to melee (if done right), and completely to cav.

That's it. The three first points make ranged an already quite hard class to counter (with non-ranged or throwing). What works is outnumbering, anything else has strong chances of failing. Every contender for the title of ranged counter has a big flaw. Shielders only survive ranged. But when it comes to killing them, they are too slow. Furthermore, shield coverage is fail, protecting only from what the shielder faces. Cav are squishy and very easy to dodge. Shieldless throwers lack protection, shielded throwers are too slow, and throwing is unreliable (low accuracy, slow missiles, difficult arcs). What works is trying to kill the enemy infantry fast and hoping you'll have enough meatshield left when you have to reach the ranged, the classes of your meatshield doesn't really matter.

So actually, the problem isn't that all other classes should be able to match 1v1 with archers, it's that the counters to ranged are too weak, and a lot weaker because of ladders.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 11, 2012, 02:29:46 am
The goggles they do nothing!
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 11, 2012, 08:17:21 pm
Yes, they absolutely should. A good player of any class should never, ever die in a 1v1 confrontation because of some rock paper scissors nonsense. A 1v1 confrontation should be decided solely by skill.

Sorry I'm not very good at articulating my thoughts.  I don't mean their death should be a foregone conclusion, I mean that in every 1v1, it shouldn't be "equally matched".  Certain classes have strengths over other classes, and to try and nerf those natural strengths to give the other class a chance in a 1v1, seems like a losing proposition.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Oberyn on January 11, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Ok, so basically you want ranged to be the only class immune to every other class except itself, yes? An archer's natural strengths are pretty explicit: you can hurt people from far away, you are usually lighter/faster mobility than well equipped inf. That already makes you dangerous to every single other player on the enemy team. Sitting on top of what is basically a small, unreachable indestructible fort isn't a natural advantage, it's an artificial one, one that completely unbalances the Battle gamemode. In Siege it's a natural advantage, because that's the whole fucking point of the gamemode, one side defends a castle and the other attacks, and that's balanced out by the respawn times.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Engine on January 11, 2012, 08:49:19 pm
I'm in favor of this change, if it means less fun-destroying archers on rooftops, invulnerable for 5:30 each round until an admin tells them to jump down.

I also have an archer, and only fight from the ground. Like a bad mutha.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 11, 2012, 09:00:19 pm
Ok, so basically you want ranged to be the only class immune to every other class except itself, yes? An archer's natural strengths are pretty explicit: you can hurt people from far away, you are usually lighter/faster mobility than well equipped inf. That already makes you dangerous to every single other player on the enemy team. Sitting on top of what is basically a small, unreachable indestructible fort isn't a natural advantage, it's an artificial one, one that completely unbalances the Battle gamemode. In Siege it's a natural advantage, because that's the whole fucking point of the gamemode, one side defends a castle and the other attacks, and that's balanced out by the respawn times.

No the complaints about ladders are legitimate, I'm just using this as an argument of the bigger picture of nerfing classes as the "fix" to balance issues, instead of countering the natural balances.

Archers are weak to shields who can push them back and render the enemy ranged useless to their team by making them turn and run.  Also cavalry are the natural counter to lone archers (as well as it usually boiling down to archers having to be anti-archers, like modern day sniper and anti-snipers).  The same can be true for cavalry when they are on the move and far away from the battle, the only people who can counter them are other cavalry. 

That being said, I kill archers all the time when I get dismounted from my horse and have to run them down.  You can corner them with other infantry, or I can just chase them away from the battle and keep them from shooting my teammates.  Ranged aren't overpowered, maybe you can argue they were with ladders and being on rooftops, but now that is being removed, I don't think saying ranged is immune to every other class is truthful. 
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Oberyn on January 11, 2012, 09:18:41 pm
Well yeh, removing ladders and the roofcamping thing was kind of the whole point of the nerf, so I don't see why they'd need anything more.
Title: Re: Oh my!
Post by: Joker86 on January 11, 2012, 09:38:15 pm
I also want to point out that I agree that further nerfs, both to archers and cavalry, are not needed.

Now that roofcamping is (will soon be? Are server patched already?) gone, we can see how the ranged spam develops. If there's still too much of it, I suggested to give bonus XP at the end of the round, depending on how rare your class is. If there are too many players of the same class, you simply get less rewards. This could perhaps encourage a few people per server to switch to a class that's more seldom at the moment, and switching back to archer when enough other players did the same. It's a nerf without lowering the effictivity of archers.

The only solution to buffing infantry I found was a new skill system, which a bit nerfs the other classes, too, unfortunately. Basically only the website gets changed, the skills stay the same. Everyone has still access to the old, generic skill tree with STR and AGi as attributes, but for every skill point raised you need FOUR points of the corresponding attribute. But you can unlock ONE of three "skill trees" (which function the same way like strength does, according to most item difficulties), where skills need only 3x as many attribute points. The problem is, not every skill tree contains all skills.  :wink: Archers for example don't have athletics or power strike in their skill tree, and every point in the "archery" skill tree counts only as half point of strength ingame. Infantry has no ranged skills, cavalry has no ironflesh or athletics. And in order to buff infantry a bit, a few basic skills like ironflesh, power strike and shield skill need only TWICE the attribute to be raised one point.

If you want to raise a skill that's not in your tree, you have to pay with 4 attribute points per skill point.

This way infantry will always be the fastest, toughest and hardest hitting class in melee, and you should be able to feel this. Cavalry can also hit quite hard, but is more vulnerable, and archers can basically only shoot  :P

Of course this nerfs hybrids the most, but I think this can be balanced carefully, finding a fair solution to make them as strong as they used to be (which was not much anyway, admittedly  :? )