cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Ironlake on December 30, 2011, 02:39:07 pm
-
There is one weapon in this game that is *ultimately* better then all others.
Now, just to be clear, I don't mean its better then any weapon of different class - the shittyest bow is superior in range to the best one handers ofcourse. But the
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(MACE)
has absolutely no competitor in its class. What you have to keep in mind is that this is not a weapon that competes in the 2-hander class. Chase or Phyrex or any 2h player ever goes "ohh should I use the Mace or the Danish or the German?". It matters nothing that the weapon uses the 2h proficiency as - FUNCTIONALY - it is a one slot weapon. Its used as a melee 1 slot sidearm for ranged dueds, mainly xbows (cause archer are usually 0 melee and need more arrows) but also archer's melee for the more melee inclined.
Simply, if you have 1 slot for melee, no choice but the MACE. Everything else is substantialy weaker.
- 30 blunt dmg beats even heavy armor
- fast
- hits from the hilt
- knockdown
- relatively cheap upkeep
Compare:
same price 1h - WINGED MACE
3 more difficulty, 1 less weight (less knockdown, more often weapon stunned), less dmg, 1h animations
Its actually better then any 1her, even those that cost up to 10 k gold! Just look at any crossbowman and what he carries - MACE.
The sad thing is that the alternative - 1hers as 1slot weapons and ranged sidearms are an EXCELENTLY balanced class. Hardly any 2 good 1h players use the same one, either of the 5 most expensive 1hers is a viable option, there are piercers, blunt, cut, stab, short, long etc. etc. Making people use 1hers instead of everyone ranged using this would add so much diversity of builds since there are so many viable choices in 1hers (some better, some cheaper etc. etc.)
-
So you want restrict this thingy for ranged, but hyipocritically call it «Let's add diversity»?
Make simple Bastard sword 1slot weapon instead. And all this countless ranged will use bastard sword.
Anyway, slot idea do not make this mod better.
-
mace is op, there is no question about it.
-
mace is op, there is no question about it.
agreed
On stats it is actually comparable to the warhammer
MACE/WARHAMMER
weapon length: 70/65
weight: 2.7/3
difficulty: 8/15
speed rating: 98/97
thrust damage: 0/18 pierce
swing damage: 30/31 blunt
slots: 1/1
and it should therefore cost approx the same - 10k ish
The increased upkeep of that will at least make people sacrifice a bit of armour if they want to conitinue using the mace
-
pfff...
the 2h mace is already nerfed.
By the way;
...a 2h mace should allways deal more damage than a 1h mace.
-
You can't really compare the 1h and 2h mace. 1h mace can use a shield with no penaltie
-
LoL, look at the names of people who +1 Ironlake's post: Illogical, Inkompetent, Ujin..... :-)
-
LoL, look at the names of people who +1 Ironlake's post: Illogical, Inkompetent, Ujin..... :-)
Joosto, Tor...
-
Highly dependend on the player id say.
I mean Tenne is doing good in melee with langes messer....
But yeah, all in all, its quite suprising how often dedicated ranged fights back when having this little stick.
2H personal never used it...and it will stay that way.
Xbowers mostly got high agility, it takes them one block to get into range..
I say keep it as a viable sidearm, but slightly change the stats.
Decrease its speed and remove knockdown and you still get high output....
-
It's not OP. It's just a really viable option for 2h-ers to use vs. fast-as-fuck 1h-ers, shielders, etc. You have to be practically on top of someone to hit them with it, which is a huge weakness. It also doesn't have crushthrough like some of the bigger hammers. I've both used it and fought against it many times and don't find it OP by any means. There are other weapons that are more "OP" or ridiculous (i.e. fucking pikes that stab you 2" away or swing-stab you thru doors and walls, throwing weps that one-shot you from almost any distance including point-blank, etc)
It's also the only good 2h-er that is 1 slot. You have to have a decent 2h 1-slot wep out there that will allow you to carry a siege ladder when needed.
-
I agree, that this mace is way too strong. A slight stat change or a higher price should do very fine.
-
Removing knockdown would go a long way. It'd still have massive damage. The shortness is both a pro and a con, but I for one would rather fight a long weapon.
-
Change the weight to be drastically lower, it shouldnt compare to a Warhammer on almost all its stats.
Secondly reduce the swing speed on it, and add other 1slot 2h weapons that might give other options to people.
The biggest thing is that it does blunt damage, and has knockdown AND is fast and decent length. No its not a flamberg, but you can still hit targets with it. The weapon is too good all around and needs to have some kind of detriment to it.
-
No matter what you do... People will flock to one specific weapon type if playing range... Look at the "Diversity" in what people choose for 0 slot archer backups.
I agree the thing seems slightly too powerful, but a simple small tweak will fix that, say simply remove knockdown and it would be fine.
-
Anyway, slot idea do not make this mod better.
QFT
-
I rather want to see more dedicated ranged players using a onehander as backup - like Ironlake does. I just think it fits better.
Oh, and on topic with the power of this little thing: It's fast, deals alot of damage, hiltslashes like a baws, blunt damage and knocks you down. To much good in a 1slot weapon.
-
atleast they carry a weapon lol an doesn't run like a my old friend an kite
-
Make it 2 slots.
Also I used it quite a lot with my 2h build. I kept it as a back up to a bigger slower weapon. And in a scrambler when the kill hungry noobs descend it does a hell of a lot because of its speed and short length.
-
What are the actual stat changes for using a weapon in secondary mode?
-
It's a bit powerful for 1 slot sidearm role, but seriously, langes messer is fairly good choice too with 2h profiency. 22 more reach is nice and the polearm stab animation seems to surprise so very many. What is a shame is that the 2h animation just is so much superior that I would not see myself using 1h profiency for a sidearm since 2h gives so awesome options.
On a side note though, it's pretty damn powerful for it's price. Every other viable option is more expensive and many of them are worse. So increase price and maybe lower the weight to 2 or so.
-
I rather want to see more dedicated ranged players using a onehander as backup - like Ironlake does. I just think it fits better.
Looks like me and you have a similar idea of what this game could look like =).
-
It's a bit powerful for 1 slot sidearm role, but seriously, langes messer is fairly good choice too with 2h profiency. 22 more reach is nice and the polearm stab animation seems to surprise so very many. What is a shame is that the 2h animation just is so much superior that I would not see myself using 1h profiency for a sidearm since 2h gives so awesome options.
On a side note though, it's pretty damn powerful for it's price. Every other viable option is more expensive and many of them are worse. So increase price and maybe lower the weight to 2 or so.
Chambering is hard against the 1h animations. Much, much easier against the 2h animations. But since n=fuck all people actually try and chamber I guess your right.
-
1h animations
Its actually better then any 1her, even those that cost up to 10 k gold! Just look at any crossbowman and what he carries - MACE.
The sad thing is that the alternative - 1hers as 1slot weapons and ranged sidearms are an EXCELENTLY balanced class. Hardly any 2 good 1h players use the same one, either of the 5 most expensive 1hers is a viable option, there are piercers, blunt, cut, stab, short, long etc. etc. Making people use 1hers instead of everyone ranged using this would add so much diversity of builds since there are so many viable choices in 1hers (some better, some cheaper etc. etc.)
2h animations are only superior when your weapon has a thrust, the Mace, doesn't. 1h animations can be thought of as a clear advantage in this situation due to the left swing tendency to head shot.
I see plenty of people not using the Mace, though nearly every duelist uses it. From a hybrid perspective, nerfing the mace to make it less viable would only hurt versatility. Currently you're able to bring the mace, a stack of bolts and an Arbalest one round, then the next round you can bring a German Greatsword, Crossbow and bolts; both are equally as effective. A one-hander can hybrid with a shield when he wants a lighter crossbow and when he goes with a heavier one, he has a surplus of weapons to chose from, many of which are faster and longer than the Mace. The only issue I see, is that polearms are the exception here, there isn't a good 1 slot polearm as far as I am concerned. Very rarely do I see a ranged hybrid (that isn't a fresh STF or low level character) using a 1 slot pole as their melee weapon.
tldr; Versatility is being hampered, not by the Mace being too good, but because there isn't a good polearm equivalent. Thus anyone desiring to hybrid melee (without shield skill, the would-be polearm+ range hybrid guys) with ranged or simply someone trying to maximize damage, will pick a mace. And nerfing the mace will kill off 2h + ranged hybrids in the same way that there aren't any pole + ranged hybrids, currently.
Edit:
No matter what you do... People will flock to one specific weapon type if playing range... Look at the "Diversity" in what people choose for 0 slot archer backups.
I agree the thing seems slightly too powerful, but a simple small tweak will fix that, say simply remove knockdown and it would be fine.
Remove the knockdown and you remove 20% of what versatility two-hander's have; all the greatswords have the same exact playstyle (the faster two-handers like the longsword have almost exactly the same style); you have three crushthrough weapons; the unbalanced, thrustless weapons (Which arguably, many of which could be the same play style as the greatswords); the Flamberge with its own style; and then the Mace and the marginally useful Goedendag, which suffers from low numerical damage and only 2.5 weight. Compare it with a War Spear that has, pole stagger, a range advantage, and much higher pierce damage that makes an even larger difference when you factor in speed bonuses.
Polearms on the other hand, have quite a bit of versatility to them. Pikes, Swiss Halberd + English Bill, Awl Pikes + Ashwood, Hoplites, War Spear + Red Tassle + LHSM, Great Axes + Bardiche's, Long Maul, Glaive+LHB, Bec, then the Poleaxes. Each one has a distinct playstyle due to the large differences in weapon range, speed, weight, damage and modifiers like unbalanced and knockdown.
You can argue with how I break down the playstyles, but I don't think it's really arguable that they have the same versatility. One-Handers by the way, having an equal amount of versatility with polearms due to pole's generally being terrible to hybrid with for anything other than cavalry (and even then, I play lancer cav with 1 pole wpf).
-
Very rarely do I see a ranged hybrid (that isn't a fresh STF or low level character) using a 1 slot pole as their melee weapon.
I think this is mostly due to the fact that a polearm on your back gets in the way of your aim if you use a 3rd person view to shoot. Good players can definitely compete with a shortened spear or quarter staff due to their speed.
-
I think this is mostly due to the fact that a polearm on your back gets in the way of your aim if you use a 3rd person view to shoot. Good players can definitely compete with a shortened spear or quarter staff due to their speed.
Only some polearms get in the way and that's only when you're at certain angles. Before the slot patch, I saw a lot of people with war spears, long hafted spiked maces and even german poleaxes.
-
People got so low nowadays that they wanna nerf this mace?
-
People got so low nowadays that they wanna nerf this mace?
They actually just nerfed the speed on it from 99 to 98. =/
-
Thing is ridiculously overpowered. People have trouble spotting the directions when you use it. For its price there is no better weapon, I actually use it sometimes on siege or when I'm using my money making gear. People can't block it, and if they can, it still knockdowns a lot. This should be atleast 3k more expensive.
-
Just tryed lange messer instead of mace on a alt becuz of this tread, my K/D ratio say thanks you very much :mrgreen:.
Without high atl mace kinda sux.
-
mace is op, there is no question about it.
Ironically I remember seeing one of the more well known and dedicated, (read boring narrow-minded fool), two handers use this for a bit stating, and I quote: I wanted a challenge, so I decided to use a harder weapon.
Make or laugh at that what you will.
-
Langes Messer is good thingy, but it's too costly without wpf. Also LM do not have 2H stab animations. And you must press «X» at the beginning of a round. Not too comfortable weapon.
Can't we have another LM, as 2H\1H weapon and with 2H stab?
But this rage about Mace really looks like «Big Whine in a Kindergarten»
-
I used the mace with a shield once.
Ewww that was slow.
But nevertheless, this weapon is totally OP. I can choose it with any character, and I'll always be capable of doing a lot of kills with it. I don't know why, but this weapon seems to ignore wpf entirely, in the sense that it's already fast as hell with 1 wpf.
To balance it, I think the best would be increasing it's dependency on wpf somehow and removing the knockdown. Knockdown in general is a retarded feature. Not only is it random based and extremely powerful. It also negates the stats of the victim (as in, a 30/9 mammoth can be knocked down by a 9/30 fairy without any problems, and the mace in particular is very popular among fairies). And doesn't require any adaptation from the opponent, since he simply has to avoid being hit, unlike crushthrough which introduces different threats than the usual ones, with different weaknesses.
-
You can basically 1-hit kill people with your mace because of the knockdown. Hit them once, hit them again when they're down, kick them, hit them the third time. Because of 30-33 blunt (heirlooms) damage, you're very likely to kill with that even if you have low PS.
-
Would love a 2h version of langes messer oh that would be so awesome.
-
I think knockdown is a viable part of the game, but it should probably be dependent on one or two things:
1. The Strength or PS of the person using it (a weaker person would have a harder time knocking someone down with any weapon).
2. The Armor factor of the person being hit (the more armor you have on should negate knockdown to some degree).
Also, as someone previously mentioned - making it more dependent on WPF would work too.
These are all ways of keeping the weapon as another decent tool in the shed without reducing it to a pile of rubble no one will want to use anymore.
-
death to 1slot dildo..
-
has been said before: remove knockdown and we are good.
-
After reading the first post and first response I skipped over the rest of the thread because in my heart of hearts I want the bastard sword to be 1 slot. Or 1.5 slots.
-
I used the mace with a shield once.
Ewww that was slow.
But nevertheless, this weapon is totally OP. I can choose it with any character, and I'll always be capable of doing a lot of kills with it. I don't know why, but this weapon seems to ignore wpf entirely, in the sense that it's already fast as hell with 1 wpf.
To balance it, I think the best would be increasing it's dependency on wpf somehow and removing the knockdown. Knockdown in general is a retarded feature. Not only is it random based and extremely powerful.
I lance from horseback with 1 wpf and do better than the majority of cav. Yesterday I used my MW German Poleaxe with 1 wpf in a full battle server and did better (I ended 2nd on my team, just behind the cav crutching badplayer) than the previous map when I used my MW GGS with 131 wpf. It's not the weapon speed or wpf(though weapon speed plays a larger factor than wpf does) that really matters much for battle, it's mostly just the player.
Rather than making it depend on wpf directly, but to the same effect, just scale wpf/wpp differently so that all melee basically have 30-50 wpf more. If the average is 130, then aim for an average between 160-180. Higher wpf like this(Since it isn't a very big speed buff) will only penalize the low wpf guys and no one complained about the mace before archers started using it with 1 wpf.
-
I hope the final verdict for mace won't be nerf. Instead I'll rather want to see buff for other weapons which means making swords shorter than 110 one slot. Many ranged players would switch to those purely for style and you have to agree that those aren't really OP.
-
I hope the final verdict for mace won't be nerf. Instead I'll rather want to see buff for other weapons which means making swords shorter than 110 one slot. Many ranged players would switch to those purely for style and you have to agree that those aren't really OP.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
-
Give me a left-swinging steel pick any day!
-
How can you say that this oversized dildo is better then the lovely Winged Mace?! *gently strokes the winged mace*
-It's okey babe, the don't know what they are talking about.
Heh, in all seriousness tho, the 2h mace is too good for it's price. There is NO reason what so ever to pick any other weapon in that price range besides "personal-non-stat-wise" preferences.
-
It's not OP. It's just a really viable option for 2h-ers to use vs. fast-as-fuck 1h-ers, shielders, etc. You have to be practically on top of someone to hit them with it, which is a huge weakness. It also doesn't have crushthrough like some of the bigger hammers. I've both used it and fought against it many times and don't find it OP by any means. There are other weapons that are more "OP" or ridiculous (i.e. fucking pikes that stab you 2" away or swing-stab you thru doors and walls, throwing weps that one-shot you from almost any distance including point-blank, etc)
It's also the only good 2h-er that is 1 slot. You have to have a decent 2h 1-slot wep out there that will allow you to carry a siege ladder when needed.
It's actually the only 2h that's 1 slot, that along with the weapon's stats, is the problem. If you want a 1 slot weapon, use a 1h.
If I was crossbow or archer I'd be a fool not to use this weapon.
-
I lance from horseback with 1 wpf and do better than the majority of cav. Yesterday I used my MW German Poleaxe with 1 wpf in a full battle server and did better (I ended 2nd on my team, just behind the cav crutching badplayer) than the previous map when I used my MW GGS with 131 wpf. It's not the weapon speed or wpf(though weapon speed plays a larger factor than wpf does) that really matters much for battle, it's mostly just the player.
Rather than making it depend on wpf directly, but to the same effect, just scale wpf/wpp differently so that all melee basically have 30-50 wpf more. If the average is 130, then aim for an average between 160-180. Higher wpf like this(Since it isn't a very big speed buff) will only penalize the low wpf guys and no one complained about the mace before archers started using it with 1 wpf.
1 WPF in polearms when lancing from horseback isn't as noticeable as 1 WPF in other areas on foot. That being said, try going up against someone with 130+ wpf in polearms with the same lance and you're at a disadvantage. The only time I see you dominate is on foot with 2h, not on horse with lance.
-
1 WPF in polearms when lancing from horseback isn't as noticeable as 1 WPF in other areas on foot. That being said, try going up against someone with 130+ wpf in polearms with the same lance and you're at a disadvantage. The only time I see you dominate is on foot with 2h, not on horse with lance.
I don't really like riding my pony much but lancer vs lancer I tend to have a rather huge advantage due to the fact that my lance hangs at near full extension for quite a while. Any change in speed that another rider tries to make tends to amount to very little. 1 WPF lancing puts you at an advantage against other lancers but a disadvantage for anything else, when compared to a lancer with your average polearm wpf. Regardless, you seem to have missed the part where I said I used a MW German Poleaxe with 1 wpf for a map. I ended up with some 20 kills and 4 or so deaths I believe, just behind badplayer.
-
I don't really like riding my pony much but lancer vs lancer I tend to have a rather huge advantage due to the fact that my lance hangs at near full extension for quite a while. Any change in speed that another rider tries to make tends to amount to very little. 1 WPF lancing puts you at an advantage against other lancers but a disadvantage for anything else, when compared to a lancer with your average polearm wpf. Regardless, you seem to have missed the part where I said I used a MW German Poleaxe with 1 wpf for a map. I ended up with some 20 kills and 4 or so deaths I believe, just behind badplayer.
I lance with 1wpf too.
I wouldn't say it's an advantage but it is 100% not a disadvantage.
-
is mace good from horseback????
if yes: OP
if no: still OP but less, like acceptable kind.
-
It's actually the only 2h that's 1 slot, that along with the weapon's stats, is the problem. If you want a 1 slot weapon, use a 1h.
If I was crossbow or archer I'd be a fool not to use this weapon.
This is basically my main point. If you use an Arbalest+bolts, or Rus bow+bolts then have the disadavantage of a 1hander as _backup_ weapon.
And there are plenty of nice 1handers to chose from.
-
Nerf that weapon allrdy.
-
OP post +38....I think i get what the community wants...
-
Whatever I put in my hands gets its own thread in game balance discussion section with the topic name like "NEEEEEEERF, OP OP OP!!!!!!1111". You know what is OP? 1slot staff! I would use it if I weren't playing first person (this damn hand obscures the whole display when you try to block left side). Just imagine: blunt damage, 100 speed, 137 length, polearm stun, 1 slot!!!
-
and 21 damage
-
Yeah Dave, u so important.
I´d rather say everything thats close to getting a thread in suggestions lands in your hand.
-
Whatever I put in my hands gets its own thread in game balance discussion section with the topic name like "NEEEEEEERF, OP OP OP!!!!!!1111". You know what is OP? 1slot staff! I would use it if I weren't playing first person (this damn hand obscures the whole display when you try to block left side). Just imagine: blunt damage, 100 speed, 137 length, polearm stagger, 1 slot!!!
I thought that weapons with the knockdown flag didn't get pole-stagger.
-
I thought that weapons with the knockdown flag didn't get pole-stagger.
i was just trolling