cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 11:29:45 am

Title: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 11:29:45 am
xD chadz gg i dont play crpg like month and when i return what i have seen... in battle 60 ppl 2-3 archers , siedge 34 ppl 1 archer... GG...
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: [ptx] on December 20, 2011, 11:30:42 am
Success!

If only that were true :[
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Angantyr on December 20, 2011, 11:50:28 am
Cool story bro.

This is from about an hour ago on S1, notice how everyone on the picture is ranged, and this is only what remained.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Vovka on December 20, 2011, 11:54:33 am
or check strat battle HRE vs Haen  :lol:
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 11:55:26 am
Cool story bro.

This is from about an hour ago on S1, notice how everyone on the picture is ranged, and this is only what remained.
(click to show/hide)
it is xbows i mean archers , xbow is still OP... )
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 11:57:09 am
or check strat battle HRE vs Haen  :lol:
strategus and crpg is defferent games )
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 11:57:54 am
it is xbows i mean archers , xbow is still OP... )

Hard to tell because of the quality, but looks like 50% archers and 50% crossbows...
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 11:58:33 am
Hard to tell because of the quality, but looks like 50% archers and 50% crossbows...
cant agree with u
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 12:02:43 pm
Xbowmans can have spec with 5 ps and 80wpf and still they will be accurate , bowmans if u hybrid u suck in ranged , so a choise for full archery spec only runing like a my old friend ...
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 12:05:57 pm
cant agree with u

True- it's 4 archers and 3 crossbowmen, not 50-50.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Dezilagel on December 20, 2011, 12:22:38 pm
Xbowmans can have spec with 5 ps and 80wpf and still they will be accurate , bowmans if u hybrid u suck in ranged , so a choise for full archery spec only runing like a my old friend ...

Yes, but bows are HARDLY up atm, I still fear the little lamer 20 m away with a bow more than the two guys in my face with an axe each...

Don't want to run like a my old friend - don't play archer

(Or put some wpf into melee, look at Inhumane)
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Pandor_Archer on December 20, 2011, 12:40:40 pm
Yes, but bows are HARDLY up atm, I still fear the little lamer 20 m away with a bow more than the two guys in my face with an axe each...

Don't want to run like a my old friend - don't play archer

(Or put some wpf into melee, look at Inhumane)
Yes, but bows are HARDLY up atm (link plz even 1 patch with bow up)
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 12:51:02 pm
UP= Underpowered.. and you are indeed correct, they have not been UP in any patch.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 20, 2011, 01:01:09 pm
Atm there are many ranged outside, but not more than other classes.

I don't know why, but although almost every patch nerfed archery, the amount of archers is growing^^  Now it is actually balanced. Out of 60 people you have about 10-15 ranged and maybe 10 horses, rest is melee infantry.

Of course it can happen that there are only 5 archers out of 50 people on server, but it can also happen that there are 20 archers out of 50 people. That's because people play at different times and thus it can happen^^
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Camaris on December 20, 2011, 05:15:25 pm
Im playing around 19:00-24:00 GMT+1.
Please archers switch to another timezone if you find yourself playing at those times aswell.
I suggest studying in australia or going to china for work.
If you are older... i heared new zealand is a nice country to spend someones golden ages.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 20, 2011, 08:55:52 pm
Im playing around 19:00-24:00 GMT+1.
Please archers switch to another timezone if you find yourself playing at those times aswell.
I suggest studying in australia or going to china for work.
If you are older... i heared new zealand is a nice country to spend someones golden ages.

:D  So sorry for you my friend^^
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Siiem on December 20, 2011, 10:23:53 pm
Tor on his my old friendgy archer alt dehorsed like 7 guys in one round and killed 2 while I watched over his weakling ass. That is a lot of help to your team when he was never, ever even in remote danger.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 10:51:48 pm
He was in more danger than anyone here could ever realize, if he had you watching his back.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Siiem on December 20, 2011, 10:55:49 pm
He was in more danger than anyone here could ever realize, if he had you watching his back.

Could be worse, could have been you.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 11:16:54 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Siiem on December 20, 2011, 11:22:29 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Rumblood on December 21, 2011, 05:58:02 am
Cool story bro.

This is from about an hour ago on S1, notice how everyone on the picture is ranged, and this is only what remained.
(click to show/hide)

You failed at the standard testing in school didn't you? While Bow may = Ranged, Ranged does not = Bow.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Angantyr on December 21, 2011, 06:49:19 am
Well, technically a crossbow is a bow mounted on a stock :wink:

But yeah, OP was talking about archers specifically, but as most of the often discussed issues are exactly the same whether it's crossbowmen or archers I just posted the recent picture I had with both. There were many more archers than xbows btw, and many more of both than what you see on the picture. You just have to take my word for it or go play a few maps yourself. /Not that this random picture is worth much as evidence for anything whatsoever, just had it lying around when I spotted this thread - better examples could be found easily.

And as I'm a teacher I certainly don't hope I failed any testing in school, for my students' sake :lol:
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 21, 2011, 10:18:03 am
Well, technically a crossbow is a bow mounted on a stock :wink:

But yeah, OP was talking about archers specifically, but as most of the often discussed issues are exactly the same whether it's crossbowmen or archers I just posted the recent picture I had with both. There were many more archers than xbows btw, and many more of both than what you see on the picture. You just have to take my word for it or go play a few maps yourself. /Not that this random picture is worth much as evidence for anything whatsoever, just had it lying around when I spotted this thread - better examples could be found easily.

And as I'm a teacher I certainly don't hope I failed any testing in school, for my students' sake :lol:

I was there, too, and the amount of archers wasn't much higher than the amount of crossbows. Actually they were equal ^^
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Vibe on December 21, 2011, 10:20:01 am
lol at op
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on December 21, 2011, 12:36:20 pm
I dont mind ranged... really I dont... as long as they stay on the ground and not on some roof  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Lizard_man on December 21, 2011, 03:23:37 pm
I dont mind ranged... really I dont... as long as they stay on the ground and not on some roof  :rolleyes:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


This is the scene of every battle, infact, only the other night, it seemed the entire team was roof camping. Pretty much every corner you run around has someone with a bow or crossbow at the ready, you pretty much have to dance around the map to avoid been hit. Now i must admit, there is a shitload of ranged in c-rpg, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that the balance tends to put 90% of the ranged on one team, would be a good idea if we had something so the balance knows what class you're playing, this way the balance would be fair...
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on December 21, 2011, 03:46:50 pm
roofs should have a random chance of collapsing once 2 people step on it :P be hilarious to watch archers have to navigate a minefield of roofs with them falling to their deaths 30% of the time :P
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Furax on December 21, 2011, 04:18:03 pm
Roofcamping is why we need firebombs, bring firebombs back!!! Make them crazy expensive and instakill anyone within an avreage roof size area. Would need to be timed so people could run away from them, and more than 50% could be duds.

Would be so hilarious to watch a group of archers panickly jump down from the roof once a firebomb landed up there.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 21, 2011, 04:54:10 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


This is the scene of every battle, infact, only the other night, it seemed the entire team was roof camping. Pretty much every corner you run around has someone with a bow or crossbow at the ready, you pretty much have to dance around the map to avoid been hit. Now i must admit, there is a shitload of ranged in c-rpg, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that the balance tends to put 90% of the ranged on one team, would be a good idea if we had something so the balance knows what class you're playing, this way the balance would be fair...

I don't know how many threats have been started about this and how many comments were made, but still nothing has been done.... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Rumblood on December 21, 2011, 11:14:18 pm
but as most of the often discussed issues are exactly the same whether it's crossbowmen or archers I just posted the recent picture I had with both.

Crossbowmen and Archers do NOT even come CLOSE to experiencing the same types of challenges, nor do they present the same types of problems. The only thing they have in common is that they have a projectile.

Therefore, solutions to issues have to be addressed INDIVIDUALLY because any change will have a totally different effect on the playstyle.

You people talk about them like Chickens and Ducks.

One has their wings clipped and cannot fly nor swim.
One flies and swims to their hearts content.
Both can walk.

"Damn Ducks are OP! They can just fly away from me, or swim across a pond from me, and if I finally get them down, they can just walk away from me!"
"You're right! Birds are OP! Cut off their legs!"
"Hey wait, chickens can't fly or swim."
"Chickens? Ducks? They are both Birds LOL! Cut off their feet!"
"Hey wait, that would leave Chickens without a way to move. Chickens are NOT Ducks"
"LOL, nerf Birds!"
"No man, Nerf ducks, they are the only problem."

<CHOP!>

Where did all the chickens go?


Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Angantyr on December 22, 2011, 10:13:26 am
Take it easy now, and dispense on the strawmen please, putting words in other people's mouths doesn't serve the discussion one bit.



Similarities between xbows and archers in regards to their battlefield role are many; on a micro level there's some minor differences sure, like trajectory and rate of fire, but largely they act as battlefield suppressors with most melee fighting in their shadow trying more often than not unsuccessfully to have at least portions of the fight whilst in cover. But taking up your strawman I will of course consent that xbows and archers shouldn't be treated as completely interchangable in all areas, I don't think anyone ever argued differently.

I think Dezi was pretty spot on when he said:

I still fear the little lamer 20 m away with a bow more than the two guys in my face with an axe each...

I like ranged and few battles feels complete without projectiles hissing in the air but with these game mechanics ranged very quickly becomes too dominating, if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire, setting the scene and usually deciding the outcome of a round by how unevenly they are distributed on the two teams.

In the Vikingr mod we nerfed archers to hell and still they decided how the battle was fought, even when there was just a few of them. There's a reason ranged combat triumphed historically ( though when the melee commenced the arrow rain usually stopped for good reason ) but I personally wouldn't mind if their role was less central in cRPG, and I'm even accustomed to heavily range dominated Native where ( at the least ) 60%+ skirmishing ranged is the standard approach for clan matches.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 22, 2011, 10:47:16 am


I like ranged and few battles feels complete without projectiles hissing in the air but with these game mechanics ranged very quickly becomes too dominating, if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire, setting the scene

There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...
You know there is much cover on the maps (ok, not on randomplains, but that's why people can use shields ;) ) and you can always use a shield. Most people in medieval times ran around with shields in a battle, because of all the ranged out there. All that 2h spam is not what happened there, but if you want to play such a style, you have to get used to it and find some cover. Maybe there is a nice shielder that will protect you and himself :)

and usually deciding the outcome of a round by how unevenly they are distributed on the two teams.

Totall true. Sadly the balance does not divide ranged evenly on both teams :/
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Vibe on December 22, 2011, 10:55:14 am
There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...
You know there is much cover on the maps (ok, not on randomplains, but that's why people can use shields ;) ) and you can always use a shield.

"Everyone" is not talking about archer kills, but the fact that they pin down half of the map by being gay on some inaccessible roof. Cover doesn't fix the problem, you have to face archers sooner or later. "Get a shield" arguments make me want to murder people, next time I kill you I'll say "get tetris, noob".
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Angantyr on December 22, 2011, 11:56:41 am
There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...
if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 22, 2011, 11:57:44 am
"Everyone" is not talking about archer kills, but the fact that they pin down half of the map by being gay on some inaccessible roof. Cover doesn't fix the problem, you have to face archers sooner or later. "Get a shield" arguments make me want to murder people, next time I kill you I'll say "get tetris, noob".

Do it, if you can get close enough ;)

Removing roofcamping won't remove archers :/   They will always be there as they belong to such a game
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Paul on December 22, 2011, 12:13:32 pm
I say archers do decide the outcome of a round. The team that has more archers and less inf/cav/xbow of compareable level usually loses.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Vibe on December 22, 2011, 12:41:31 pm
Do it, if you can get close enough ;)

Removing roofcamping won't remove archers :/   They will always be there as they belong to such a game

I'm not for removing archers. I'm for two things:

1. even number of archers/ranged on both teams
2. remove roofcamping
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: [ptx] on December 22, 2011, 01:45:17 pm
I say archers do decide the outcome of a round. The team that has more archers and less inf/cav/xbow of compareable level usually loses.
The bolded part.
Man, i hate xbows.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 22, 2011, 05:32:05 pm
I'm not for removing archers. I'm for two things:

1. even number of archers/ranged on both teams
2. remove roofcamping

+1 on the 1.

-1 on 2.  I don't want roofarchery to be removed, but it shouldn't be possible to destroy that ladder that leads up to the roof or just place fixed ladders as I suggested several times. :/
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Wraist on December 22, 2011, 07:27:17 pm
+1 on the 1.

-1 on 2.  I don't want roofarchery to be removed, but it shouldn't be possible to destroy that ladder that leads up to the roof or just place fixed ladders as I suggested several times. :/

If the ladders are indestructible, that gives the archers no reason to want to come down, and it has a bunch of infantry go up a ladder in single file. Even sheilders would get shot from the various angles, or a long/great maul would put an end to that. 2hers and polearm users would be completely fucked.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Joker86 on December 23, 2011, 03:13:26 am
I don't know how many threats have been started about this and how many comments were made, but still nothing has been done.... :rolleyes:

Welcome to our new episode of "How making tards donate without reason".  :rolleyes:

They don't even bother to post a "no" any more...
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Angantyr on December 23, 2011, 11:42:45 am
Developing mods is a hobby drawing on interest and enthusiasm - not forced labour. I'm sure these issues will be fixed in due time and negativity from the community can only be detrimental to the creative process.


Edit:
RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc)
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on December 23, 2011, 04:41:07 pm
Archers are a balanced class as long as they stay off roofs, balconies of small buildings fine, hills fine but if they are on a roof they have large amounts of cover, endless targets and only one way to reach them. As soon as archers hide out on a roof their natural counters all get screwed over :

- shielders have to climb a ladder single file where they can be shot at by no doubt some covering archers on yet another roof or just shot from the side if the roof is wide such as in desert villages
- Cavalry just cant reach them.
- Other ranged who are not roof camping have not got the cover of a roof and therefore the advantage swings to the roof camping players

I play on eu 1 and almost every map with a village there are between 10-20 archers standing on roofs guarding a ladder and picking off anyone who dares near the building
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Rumblood on December 23, 2011, 06:29:29 pm
You are experiencing a different breakdown than I am.

If 3 people are on a roof, 2 of them are xbows. Why? They can use the roof to hide long enough to load.

Archers are more mobile, able to move with the infantry easier than a xbowman can. Archers are much more likely to be found running to find an unawares group on their flank where their shields are not directed.

So quit talking about roof camping archers. They are much less common than the xbow on a roof, and they wear paper armor and are an easy kill. It is the roof camping crossbowman with heavy armor that takes several hits to bring down that are an issue.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Gurnisson on December 23, 2011, 07:02:21 pm
You are experiencing a different breakdown than I am.

If 3 people are on a roof, 2 of them are xbows. Why? They can use the roof to hide long enough to load.

Archers are more mobile, able to move with the infantry easier than a xbowman can. Archers are much more likely to be found running to find an unawares group on their flank where their shields are not directed.

So quit talking about roof camping archers. They are much less common than the xbow on a roof, and they wear paper armor and are an easy kill. It is the roof camping crossbowman with heavy armor that takes several hits to bring down that are an issue.

No, there are a lot more archers than xbowmen on the roof, and archers are a lot more dangerous because of their rate of fire.
Title: Re: super class balabnce
Post by: Rumblood on December 24, 2011, 01:23:47 am
No, there are a lot more archers than xbowmen on the roof, and archers are a lot more dangerous because of their rate of fire.

No U  :rolleyes: