super class balabnce

[Rumblood]

but as most of the often discussed issues are exactly the same whether it's crossbowmen or archers I just posted the recent picture I had with both.

Crossbowmen and Archers do NOT even come CLOSE to experiencing the same types of challenges, nor do they present the same types of problems. The only thing they have in common is that they have a projectile.

Therefore, solutions to issues have to be addressed INDIVIDUALLY because any change will have a totally different effect on the playstyle.

You people talk about them like Chickens and Ducks.

One has their wings clipped and cannot fly nor swim.
One flies and swims to their hearts content.
Both can walk.

"Damn Ducks are OP! They can just fly away from me, or swim across a pond from me, and if I finally get them down, they can just walk away from me!"
"You're right! Birds are OP! Cut off their legs!"
"Hey wait, chickens can't fly or swim."
"Chickens? Ducks? They are both Birds LOL! Cut off their feet!"
"Hey wait, that would leave Chickens without a way to move. Chickens are NOT Ducks"
"LOL, nerf Birds!"
"No man, Nerf ducks, they are the only problem."

<CHOP!>

Where did all the chickens go?

[Angantyr]

Take it easy now, and dispense on the strawmen please, putting words in other people's mouths doesn't serve the discussion one bit.


Similarities between xbows and archers in regards to their battlefield role are many; on a micro level there's some minor differences sure, like trajectory and rate of fire, but largely they act as battlefield suppressors with most melee fighting in their shadow trying more often than not unsuccessfully to have at least portions of the fight whilst in cover. But taking up your strawman I will of course consent that xbows and archers shouldn't be treated as completely interchangable in all areas, I don't think anyone ever argued differently.

I think Dezi was pretty spot on when he said:

I still fear the little lamer 20 m away with a bow more than the two guys in my face with an axe each...

I like ranged and few battles feels complete without projectiles hissing in the air but with these game mechanics ranged very quickly becomes too dominating, if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire, setting the scene and usually deciding the outcome of a round by how unevenly they are distributed on the two teams.

In the Vikingr mod we nerfed archers to hell and still they decided how the battle was fought, even when there was just a few of them. There's a reason ranged combat triumphed historically ( though when the melee commenced the arrow rain usually stopped for good reason ) but I personally wouldn't mind if their role was less central in cRPG, and I'm even accustomed to heavily range dominated Native where ( at the least ) 60%+ skirmishing ranged is the standard approach for clan matches.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I like ranged and few battles feels complete without projectiles hissing in the air but with these game mechanics ranged very quickly becomes too dominating, if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire, setting the scene

There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...
You know there is much cover on the maps (ok, not on randomplains, but that's why people can use shields ;) ) and you can always use a shield. Most people in medieval times ran around with shields in a battle, because of all the ranged out there. All that 2h spam is not what happened there, but if you want to play such a style, you have to get used to it and find some cover. Maybe there is a nice shielder that will protect you and himself

and usually deciding the outcome of a round by how unevenly they are distributed on the two teams.

Totall true. Sadly the balance does not divide ranged evenly on both teams :/

[Vibe]

There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...
You know there is much cover on the maps (ok, not on randomplains, but that's why people can use shields ;) ) and you can always use a shield.

"Everyone" is not talking about archer kills, but the fact that they pin down half of the map by being gay on some inaccessible roof. Cover doesn't fix the problem, you have to face archers sooner or later. "Get a shield" arguments make me want to murder people, next time I kill you I'll say "get tetris, noob".

[Angantyr]

There are maybe 10-15 archers in crpg who can dominate the scoreboard and still there are usually at most 2-3 somewhere in the upper part of the list, but still everyone talks about archers being the guys who kill everyone...

if not score-wise then by having all infantry more or less constantly under fire

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

"Everyone" is not talking about archer kills, but the fact that they pin down half of the map by being gay on some inaccessible roof. Cover doesn't fix the problem, you have to face archers sooner or later. "Get a shield" arguments make me want to murder people, next time I kill you I'll say "get tetris, noob".

Do it, if you can get close enough ;)

Removing roofcamping won't remove archers :/   They will always be there as they belong to such a game

[Paul]

I say archers do decide the outcome of a round. The team that has more archers and less inf/cav/xbow of compareable level usually loses.

[Vibe]

Do it, if you can get close enough ;)

Removing roofcamping won't remove archers :/   They will always be there as they belong to such a game

I'm not for removing archers. I'm for two things:

1. even number of archers/ranged on both teams
2. remove roofcamping

[[ptx]]

I say archers do decide the outcome of a round. The team that has more archers and less inf/cav/xbow of compareable level usually loses.

The bolded part.
Man, i hate xbows.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I'm not for removing archers. I'm for two things:

1. even number of archers/ranged on both teams
2. remove roofcamping

+1 on the 1.

-1 on 2.  I don't want roofarchery to be removed, but it shouldn't be possible to destroy that ladder that leads up to the roof or just place fixed ladders as I suggested several times. :/

[Wraist]

+1 on the 1.

-1 on 2.  I don't want roofarchery to be removed, but it shouldn't be possible to destroy that ladder that leads up to the roof or just place fixed ladders as I suggested several times. :/

If the ladders are indestructible, that gives the archers no reason to want to come down, and it has a bunch of infantry go up a ladder in single file. Even sheilders would get shot from the various angles, or a long/great maul would put an end to that. 2hers and polearm users would be completely fucked.

[Joker86]

I don't know how many threats have been started about this and how many comments were made, but still nothing has been done....

Welcome to our new episode of "How making tards donate without reason". 

They don't even bother to post a "no" any more...

[Angantyr]

Developing mods is a hobby drawing on interest and enthusiasm - not forced labour. I'm sure these issues will be fixed in due time and negativity from the community can only be detrimental to the creative process.


Edit:
RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

Archers are a balanced class as long as they stay off roofs, balconies of small buildings fine, hills fine but if they are on a roof they have large amounts of cover, endless targets and only one way to reach them. As soon as archers hide out on a roof their natural counters all get screwed over :

- shielders have to climb a ladder single file where they can be shot at by no doubt some covering archers on yet another roof or just shot from the side if the roof is wide such as in desert villages
- Cavalry just cant reach them.
- Other ranged who are not roof camping have not got the cover of a roof and therefore the advantage swings to the roof camping players

I play on eu 1 and almost every map with a village there are between 10-20 archers standing on roofs guarding a ladder and picking off anyone who dares near the building

[Rumblood]

You are experiencing a different breakdown than I am.

If 3 people are on a roof, 2 of them are xbows. Why? They can use the roof to hide long enough to load.

Archers are more mobile, able to move with the infantry easier than a xbowman can. Archers are much more likely to be found running to find an unawares group on their flank where their shields are not directed.

So quit talking about roof camping archers. They are much less common than the xbow on a roof, and they wear paper armor and are an easy kill. It is the roof camping crossbowman with heavy armor that takes several hits to bring down that are an issue.