cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: theero on December 16, 2011, 08:44:59 am

Title: Ever used real armor?
Post by: theero on December 16, 2011, 08:44:59 am
I've been reading the game balance -topic and started to wonder, how many cRPG-player have ever tried using medieval armor? I myself do quite a lot of nerdy stuff, like LARP and padded-weapon fighting, so I've gotten quite used to wear coat of plates over chainmail, closed helms, metal greaces, bracers and so on. So I'd like to hear your thoughts and experiences with real armor. I will propably add some old RL-pics to here of me in armor, if I still find them somewhere :P .
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Bobthehero on December 16, 2011, 12:42:28 pm
No armor, but I have a sword that is looki a lot like the arming sword we have in cRPG.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Everkistus on December 16, 2011, 12:46:39 pm
I own a longsword and I'm semi-profient with it since I've been doing historical fencing for a year. Next buy will probably be gauntlets since they are required for free-play on sword.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Bobthehero on December 16, 2011, 12:48:33 pm
Now that you mention it, I have a pair of mail gauntlets, been doing test with them.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 01:08:19 pm
(click to show/hide)

All the time.

It's my hobby.

But I leave out the larp aspect and the padded weapons.
I'm in for the fight and the adrenaline, not the roleplay.

Because there's nothing like bashing someones head in with a mace, or get your own head bashed in with a mace.

Or a sword. Or an axe. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on December 16, 2011, 01:48:17 pm
(click to show/hide)

All the time.

It's my hobby.

But I leave out the larp aspect and the padded weapons.
I'm in for the fight and the adrenaline, not the roleplay.

Because there's nothing like bashing someones head in with a mace, or get your own head bashed in with a mace.

Or a sword. Or an axe. Take your pick.

THE ANTARIAN EMPIRE IS RECRUITING. YOU TOO CAN BE THIS COOL!

In all honesty, sounds fun. I used to tie a rucksack to my chest and fight my little brothers with toy lightsabers. But then we got Call of Duty. :/
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 01:56:45 pm
(click to show/hide)

All the time.

It's my hobby.

But I leave out the larp aspect and the padded weapons.
I'm in for the fight and the adrenaline, not the roleplay.

Because there's nothing like bashing someones head in with a mace, or get your own head bashed in with a mace.

Or a sword. Or an axe. Take your pick.

Can't be very effective maces if you're still alive and it's not roleplay.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:02:47 pm
No, people just completely overestimate the killing power of maces and blunt weapons in general.
(one handed) blunt weapons were used to demolish your opponents armour so much that he couldn't fight anymore, not to kill.

Of course two-handed hammers and maces had enough power to snap a neck, but if we're talking one handed blunt instruments, nope, maces are not the knight-killers everyone thinks they are. There is a reason for why most fights ended on the ground, with people being stabbed by armour-piercing daggers, after being completely exhausted.

The only real effective knight killers were the crossbow, the military pick, or any hammer with that crow-shaped spike, and heavy flails.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:04:53 pm
So basically what you're doing is bashing eachother's armor with ineffective weapons? What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that you're roleplaying just as much as the LARPers and padded weapon users, don't fool yourself.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:08:58 pm
I'm not going to feed your trolling, sorry.

If you think that we're only larping, go ahead and come over, join us on training day.
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:09:46 pm
Oh snap, not the "come and see!11" comeback.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Siiem on December 16, 2011, 02:10:36 pm
So you guys just very ineffectively shape metal in an eccentric way?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:14:07 pm
Quote
Oh snap, not the "come and see!11" comeback.
Sorry, but if a person obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, it's the only way of enlightening.

First you used the argument of "must be bad maces, then", after I proved that wrong, you jumped to the next argument trying to dumb me down.

Sorry, but you're grasping for straws. Please stop trying to troll.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:16:52 pm
Sorry, but if a person obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, it's the only way of enlightening.

First you used the argument of "must be bad maces, then", after I proved that wrong, you jumped to the next argument trying to dumb me down.

Sorry, but you're grasping for straws. Please stop trying to troll.

How did you prove me wrong? I just skipped past your "argument" because it was so silly - maces can't kill someone in plate even when swung with full power several times? Hahahah.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on December 16, 2011, 02:28:02 pm
Have you ever worn plate, Xant?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:29:38 pm
I have plates all over me even as I write.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Siiem on December 16, 2011, 02:32:18 pm
I have plates all over me even as I write.

Get back in the kitchen biiiiiitch.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:34:15 pm
And here comes the ignorance, I should have seen it coming.  :P

First the question is if you have ever used plate armour, and when somebody comes in that does and can prove some silly ideas wrong, he's trolled and met with ignorance.


Aww, whatever. Do what ye want.
I know what I've experienced first hand.
You believe what you want to believe.

And thanks for the support, Tomas.  :)
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:38:01 pm
You just keep on truckin' and looking down on LARPers and those who use padded weapons, brah. You are a plate using Übermensch, immune to all weapons except picks and morningstars. Well, not to forget armor-piercing (!) daggers, of course.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:51:15 pm
You're ridiculous.

Nowhere did I look down upon larpers and padded weapons. Nowhere did I state that plate users are immune to weaponry.
I merely mentioned that I leave those out myself since I'm in for the fight, not the roleplay.

And larp IS roleplay.

So excuuuuse me, princess troll. Stop making a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 02:55:45 pm
Nowhere did I say LARP is not roleplay. But so is what you do: you're just a LARPer with more expensive toys.

Which, for the record, is fine. Whatever floats your boat. I just find it highly amusing that you think you're "fighting" not roleplaying.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Oberyn on December 16, 2011, 02:56:01 pm
Isn't it possible to damage a lot by getting around the joints as well? Under the arms, at the knees, elbows, etc? Still would require a dirk type weapon...
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 02:58:57 pm
Which, for the record, is fine. Whatever floats your boat. I just find it highly amusing that you think you're "fighting" not roleplaying.

I find it highly amusing that you're completely ignoring the martial arts part of the trade.

@Obery, yes it is possible, but it's a rare "critical" hit with the usual weapons, and striking a knight that's trying to kill you with a dirk in soft spots is anything but easy.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Siiem on December 16, 2011, 03:01:30 pm
"Critical hits" that's a proper "martial arts" term right there.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 03:03:26 pm
I find it highly amusing that you're completely ignoring the martial arts part of the trade.


What's the organization you "fight" under? They have a website? Honest question btw, there are some proper swordsman schools (although in the modern age they don't fall that far from roleplaying either - although it still interests me) but what you describe doesn't sound like one. Maybe I'm mistaken. Hence; link?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 03:07:57 pm
"Critical hits" that's a proper "martial arts" term right there.

I'm trying to make it more understandable for the hardcore players, heh.


@Xant

http://www.hiebfechtbund.de/

Here you go.
We combine the historical fencing techniques with eastern style full contact and mix in our own martial arts experience.

My trainer for example has been doing escrima for over 9 years, and it goes well with what we do.
I have to admit though, my personal training group is doing more aggressive and agile trainig than most, less trading blows for minutes.

Get in, hit hard, bring your opponent down. Done.
That's not always easy with all that armour, but that makes it especially exciting.

By the way, what are you, questioning that I "fight" all the time?

Are you ex-special forces? Hardcore military soldier? Martial arts expert yourself?
Why can't you accept that we strive to fight, not roleplay?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 03:19:14 pm
"Dedicated to full-contact sword-fighting sports" says the website, kind of an oxymoron there. But fair enough, it does look pretty interesting.

Proper fights with real weapons just aren't possible unless you're willing to accept lost lives. Maybe you're doing the next best thing, but the very nature of the weapons means the next best thing has to be next to harmless and thus very far away from a real fight. You can go all-out in BJJ - you can go all out in striking arts (with some caveats) - but if you go all out with real weapons, people die. To make it safe it's necessary for it to be roleplaying.

But like I said, looks interesting. Trying out the real techniques et cetera.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 03:32:16 pm
To make it safe it's necessary for it to be roleplaying.

I'm glad that you find it interesting, but I have to counter one more of your points before we can call it a truce.

We, I, the people I train and fight with, we are a little crazy.
We don't want safe, we want real (Training isn't always done that way, though. That'll break your body over long periods of training. We save that for the meetings and fight clubs.).
Yes, even we do have to cut some corners, so the chance of actually dying is rather small, but we cut very little compared to anyone else.

Madmen do weird things.
I know where I've got my scars from, and I don't regret them.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Oberyn on December 16, 2011, 03:50:35 pm
Even back in the day they would've had non-lethal training Xant...nobles spent their entire lives training (at least in the early days of Feudalism when being a noble=warlord), men-at-arms had training as well. Tournaments were all non-lethal too...But meh, MMA is "non-lethal". That doesn't mean it isn't a bloody, violent and adrenaline filled sport.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Skysong on December 16, 2011, 03:55:30 pm
So basically what you're doing is bashing eachother's armor with ineffective weapons? What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that you're roleplaying just as much as the LARPers and padded weapon users, don't fool yourself.

This is completely true. But it seems Elric_de_Melnibone can't understand english and his answers are totaly fail.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Vibe on December 16, 2011, 04:01:37 pm
My manly figure is my armor by itself
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 16, 2011, 04:04:15 pm
Even back in the day they would've had non-lethal training Xant...nobles spent their entire lives training (at least in the early days of Feudalism when being a noble=warlord), men-at-arms had training as well. Tournaments were all non-lethal too...But meh, MMA is "non-lethal". That doesn't mean it isn't a bloody, violent and adrenaline filled sport.

Thank you. I'm almost desperately trying to get a point across, but it seems to bounce off like a rubber ball from a wall.
Now people are even questioning my ability to comprehend the language.

Maybe it's time wasted?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 04:12:50 pm
Even back in the day they would've had non-lethal training Xant...nobles spent their entire lives training (at least in the early days of Feudalism when being a noble=warlord), men-at-arms had training as well. Tournaments were all non-lethal too...But meh, MMA is "non-lethal". That doesn't mean it isn't a bloody, violent and adrenaline filled sport.

This is true, but I don't see how it refutes anything I said, though.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Tristan on December 16, 2011, 04:48:30 pm
Jesus Christ guys. You really are fighting over different definitions of Roleplaying.

According to your definition Xant any medieval combat training with wooden swords are roleplay. Same goes for solders training for combat as they shoot blank shots. Roleplay? Paintball..... Roleplay?

This is not my defition of roleplaying, hence I tend to agree with Elric. You can call it a game or whatever. But it ain't roleplay as the "acting" is out.

I find an essential part of roleplaying being that you take on a different role. You play another person. These guys aren't acting or playing another person. They just playing. Not roleplaying.

What is funny is that you implicitly took Elrics comments on rpg as an offense. While I understand his words can be interpreted in that way (More dangerous = more cool = less gaming that rpg = better) and that might be where he is going though he might not admit it.

While I don't do Larps no more because I don't like the padded weapons and the general immature acting and focus on fantastical elements, roleplaying with reenactors I believe to be hugely fun. And that my friends could be called roleplaying just with more shiny equipment.

So tl;dr Xant, unless you categorize boxing, Karate and Football as roleplaying, you can't call what Elric is doing for Roleplaying.
You are however justified in calling it playing. But That was not really the discussion was it?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Everkistus on December 16, 2011, 04:55:34 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 05:02:20 pm
According to your definition Xant any medieval combat training with wooden swords are roleplay. Same goes for solders training for combat as they shoot blank shots. Roleplay? Paintball..... Roleplay?

No.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Thucydides on December 16, 2011, 05:11:49 pm
if they're using metal maces and weapons, even if it is blunted, i wouldn't call it roleplay anymore than fencers sparring.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: SixThumbs on December 16, 2011, 05:15:30 pm
That is pretty much what you're saying, Xant.

Regardless of whether or not, definitely not, he's going to end up in a real-life situation where he's going to be decked out in replicated full plate armor and appropriate matching weapons; the group he's associating with is doing their best to train with replicated weapons of the time period using modern techniques and training.

The instructor isn't going to swing a pick into someone's neck to show the trainees how to get around armor and they're literally not going to be bashing each others skulls in as practice.

Actually, now that I think about it pretty much is role-playing (you could say the same about taking martial arts or cooking classes).
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 05:20:19 pm
No, SixThumbs -- if you cannot see the difference between soldiers training skills for combat that will very likely save their lives (training vrs roleplaying... soldiers don't roleplay soldiers, they are soldiers) and geeks running around in plate swinging weapons at eachother that do no harm (in the 21th century no less), well....
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Teeth on December 16, 2011, 05:28:03 pm
No, people just completely overestimate the killing power of maces and blunt weapons in general.
(one handed) blunt weapons were used to demolish your opponents armour so much that he couldn't fight anymore, not to kill.

Maces are pretty effective armoured killing tools right? As far as I know when you hit someone in the head with a mace you don't just damage armour. You are dishing out blunt trauma. You don't have to break necks or slice things open to kill someone, shaking someone's brain hard enough in his skull is pretty deadly too.

I have no experience with it, but seems to me that when you get hit by a decent weight mace in the head, only padding can save your ass. A layer of steel doesn't reduce the shock.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: SixThumbs on December 16, 2011, 05:28:24 pm
Now it's just coming down to semantics and study cases because the way I see it we're saying the same thing. It's the practicality of it and some soldiers never see live-combat and shouldn't even be fit to be called soldiers in the first place. This just seems more geeky and the foundation they have to build from is out-dated and not remembered.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 16, 2011, 05:33:17 pm
Real armor? Nah.

Only a helmet, once.

Was fun, though.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Laufknoten on December 16, 2011, 06:08:42 pm
Okay, I took a look this site Elric posted. Basically they just want to have rough and brutal medieval-whathever-combat. They think modern (medieval) fencing is gay, because of all the rules and restrictions.
They are maniacs, but I kinda like their attitude. :D

Quote
We don't expect that pathetic mainstreamers understand what moves us fight clubbers and we will not explain it. Do not try to invent an explanation for our actions and don't tell us that you can somehow understand or tolerate us. We don't like you because you are the scum that makes this world so ugly.


There's even a funny article about weaboos. :D
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Everkistus on December 16, 2011, 06:55:59 pm
Please do translate!
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: v/onMega on December 16, 2011, 07:09:49 pm
Only armor Xant wears is the chastity belt given to him by Siiem.

I got the keys.

Quiet now u bitches. 8-) :D
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 17, 2011, 09:54:15 am
No, SixThumbs -- if you cannot see the difference between soldiers training skills for combat that will very likely save their lives

You fail to see that our training will actually very likely (and already has, in some cases) save our lives in situations such as mugging, fights on the street, and knife fights.
The techniques that especially my trainer uses can be applied to long weapons, short weapons, and unarmed.

And due the way we do it, which is less honour, restriction and rule-bound, it very much raises our chances of winning a fight than someone who's -never- done anything like this ever in his life. Give me a sword, give me a small stick, heck, even give me a keyring, or only leave me my own body.
I'm incredibly more effective at bringing people down with it if I have to thanks to my training.

And as opposed to most martial arts, the crazyness needed for our sports and especially our groups, it actually reduces the chance of not being able to "do it" if a life-at-risk situation comes up.

(Who doesn't want to read an opinion about soldiers, don't click the spoiler)

Quote
Soldiers should not be overrated, in my personal opinion. Every human is different, and not every soldier will be able to fight for his life as hard as a trained combatant in our group. Of course there are completely hard-ass soldiers that would whoop my ass, but it's not the majority.

The part I like least about soldiers is the indoctrination.
Soldiers follow orders. Soldiers are indoctrinated.

Warriors aren't indoctrinated. Warriors don't follow orders, but do what they feel is right.
I'd rather be a warrior, thank you.

@Everkistus


Ye, Holmgang Hamburg are basicly the complete nutjobs in the scene. They're all nice and fun people to be around.
They're lacking a bit finesse (probably due to their complete ignorance of historical fencing), but they fight very hard.
We train alot with them, but we want to have a bit more finesse in our fighting styles ourselves.

@SgtTeeh
Nowhere did I say that plate armour is impervious to all weapons, but it reduces any damage immensely.

You are right - if you hit an armoured head with a mace strong and often enough, the person will -eventually- be knocked out or killed by blunt trauma.

However, how soon and how fast that happens is completely overestimated by anyone who hasn't actually got a mace bashed into his face yet.

The issue is, for that to happen with a standard-weight infantry mace, with a fully armoured soldier as your opponent, you would basicly have to bring him down on the ground and keep swining at his head when he's lying on his back. If your opponent is up, the chance of blunt trauma, neck damage and killing is reduced very much due to several factors:

1. Your opponent is a trained warrior that knows how to let blows glance off and not take them full force, or well, parry them.
2. Your opponent is moving around and trying to bring YOU down. He's not going to just stand there and take your mace to the face.
3. Thick padding was and is worn under every helmet, and that padding highly reduced damage from blunt instruments.

Quote
Thucydides
Sparring is something we could agree on.

Yes, we do have fight-clups where we go to extreme risks to get a real fight, where we don't hold back one bit and go completely nuts and berserk, sometimes even with sharp weaponry.

But the regular training, the regular fights we do, when we're not doing a fight club or something, yeah, that's sparring.

Quote
Only armor Xant wears is the chastity belt given to him by Siiem.

I got the keys.

Quiet now u bitches. 8-) :D

I believe you, sir, win this thread.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Count_Curtis on December 17, 2011, 03:52:26 pm
Now back to the originally asked question.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


How about bread plate?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: theero on December 17, 2011, 09:22:02 pm
Tadys note to self: don't tie greaves up too tight. I have bruises in my ankles  :rolleyes: . Also I have a scratch in my finger for bashing it to my brothers bracers. Time to get some gauntlets. :P .
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on December 17, 2011, 09:35:21 pm
I'm a SCAdian, although I've only fought heavy list (adult, rattan weapon combat) in the big battles of Pennsic, so I'm rather noobish. I haven't been able to make local practices in a long time due to school and rides.

My armor is awful munitions plastic barrel and I hate it. My helmet is a big ugly black visored bar-grill and I hate it. I need a decent plate harness, so I can move around comfortably without having to constantly adjust stuff. My shield is a big metal heater, and it is awfully heavy. whah whah   :(

I have a lot of respect for live steel and heavy calibration fighters and hope to able to find the time to try it one day.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Thomek on December 19, 2011, 01:19:19 am
well.. I thought this was mostly what happened.. That the fighters got exhausted and on the ground. (add in long travels to the battlefield) then finished each other off with stuff like this:   (Through openings in the armour)

(click to show/hide)

Or of course the huge hammers and such using the stored energy of a swing from above.. Of course, knights often survived to be captured etc.. I do see the problems getting power in a swing from a 1h blunt weapon when one is exhausted. It is a bit different from crpg and the movies, but I do believe folks would just bang on each others armour for hours.. Falling back and resting etc.

One reason I wanted to lobby for a SLOW but DEADLY deadly dagger type weapon in cRPG..
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on December 20, 2011, 08:37:14 pm
No, people just completely overestimate the killing power of maces and blunt weapons in general.
(one handed) blunt weapons were used to demolish your opponents armour so much that he couldn't fight anymore, not to kill.

Of course two-handed hammers and maces had enough power to snap a neck, but if we're talking one handed blunt instruments, nope, maces are not the knight-killers everyone thinks they are. There is a reason for why most fights ended on the ground, with people being stabbed by armour-piercing daggers, after being completely exhausted.

The only real effective knight killers were the crossbow, the military pick, or any hammer with that crow-shaped spike, and heavy flails.

That's interesting, didnt know that.

Of course I assume that the people you fight with arent actually trying to kill you to the fullest extent of their strength?

Also how burly and muscular are the people you fight with?

Although I did read your larger post above this one and can see your reasoning.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 21, 2011, 01:35:33 pm
This was my first time with the Pro's, enjoy me getting beating up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF2yhGQHYy8

And yes, I admit getting beat up in this fight. One of my mistakes was choosing an axe, a weapon that I didn't ever use before at that time.

Improving, training, and having the will to keep going beyond your limits is what's important.

And he wouldn't have such an easy time again if we would fight right now.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 01:55:18 pm
My favorite part is when everyone rushes in for a group hug at the end. So sweet!
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 01:56:31 pm
Is there any maximum weight limit for the maces?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 21, 2011, 03:03:51 pm
@Xant
Yeah, hugs after hitting each other in the face are always great.

Is there any maximum weight limit for the maces?

No.
Each fight, every combatant decides what he is willing to go up against.
Want to go up against a 5kg two-handed mace? Fine, do it if your opponent agrees.
But don't be crying if you get hurt, as people will tell you how dangerous that is before you fight.

Same with that mace in the video.
It's about 2,5 - 3 kg heavy.
I think. I haven't actually be able to properly get a confirmed weight on it.

But yeah, look at that mace hitting me in the face, and everywhere.
Look how I am not killed or seriously injured, not even knocked down.

And at that time, I knew what I wanted, but I seriously lacked a good trainer (and good training overall), which I found shortly after the event. I didn't know what buttstrike, checkhand, and a proper guard was at that time. Basicly, I had the will and motivation, but nothing else. And still... yeah - I'm alive. Duh. Not seriously injured.

Need any more proof?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 03:15:51 pm
Well, it only really proves that the guy in the video didn't seriously injure or kill you with hits from a mace with his power and technique.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 21, 2011, 03:20:07 pm
Well, it only really proves that the guy in the video didn't seriously injure or kill you with hits from a mace with his power and technique.

Of course you could do it so much better, I forgot.


 :lol:

Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2011, 03:36:11 pm
:D First I thought you're the guy with a mace.

You've got a bascinet like that? Epicness.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 03:42:50 pm
Of course you could do it so much better, I forgot.


 :lol:

Naturally, but it'd be unfair to expect anyone to perform as well as me. That's not the point though, the point is that you can hardly call the video proof of anything because there are so many unknown factors.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 21, 2011, 03:46:21 pm
Naturally, but it'd be unfair to expect anyone to perform as well as me. That's not the point though, the point is that you can hardly call the video proof of anything because there are so many unknown factors.

But I can call a ridiculous troll and stop replying to you at all.  :|

@Christo

I -had- a bascinet like that.

Use a different one now. A better one. Better smith, quality and fit and all.

Here are some more impressions of our fights, later this year, with alot more training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9_FQ5CZoJg

Fights start at 07:56
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 03:58:18 pm
But I can call a ridiculous troll and stop replying to you at all.  :|

Shiiiiiiiiiiit dawg, anything but that.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 04:06:35 pm
The truth is that real life plate armor is a lot more powerful than in cRPG. Even maille armor is, in combination with undergarment it would probably make mostly immune to drawn cut weapons like scimi and katana as well as most ranged. Plate would protect from anything but dagger to the armpit or bec to the head.

But if would would make it that powerful we'd also have to increase the upkeep to like 100k per repair. There are thoughts to buff plate to almost that level of protection in Strat though.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2011, 04:10:54 pm
Paul, so true.

Even those hardened leather armors, I dunno do they call it studded, or brigandine, whatever,

Have good protection from cuts, you have to stab into that as well.
Mail is so overlooked/underestimated even to this day.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 04:20:50 pm
The truth is that real life plate armor is a lot more powerful than in cRPG. Even maille armor is, in combination with undergarment it would probably make mostly immune to drawn cut weapons like scimi and katana as well as most ranged. Plate would protect from anything but dagger to the armpit or bec to the head.

But if would would make it that powerful we'd also have to increase the upkeep to like 100k per repair. There are thoughts to buff plate to almost that level of protection in Strat though.

Yes, you don't need that much armor to be mostly immune to cuts. Blunt weapons will always be a problem when used properly, though, especially with proper hits to the helmet. You wouldn't want to be hit by a 2handed axe either (axe being a wide term here, halberds, dane axe, poleaxes etc)
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Skurwiwij on December 21, 2011, 04:28:04 pm
 I have been K.O. with a sword (1h) hit to the helmet.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 21, 2011, 04:29:47 pm
I have been K.O. with a sword (1h) hit to the helmet.

this.

Plate armor protects you well from cuts, but even getting hit by a sword in the head will make your brain ring.The sheer force will make it a devastating blow.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Thomek on December 21, 2011, 04:34:18 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related)

well.. Katana beats the longsword in the thrust because it is stiffer (thicker).

The katana beats the longsword in cutting because of curved blade.

etc.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2011, 04:35:20 pm
Thomek.. not that guy please.

Should get a "totally not biased award".  :lol:

'Ooh swords can cut through vegetables in slo-mo.'

The block of ice is pre-cut for the Katana, to make it cut through.

Should I go on? We analyzed this whole vid once in IRC with a few guys.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 21, 2011, 04:37:59 pm
this.

Plate armor protects you well from cuts, but even getting hit by a sword in the head will make your brain ring.The sheer force will make it a devastating blow.

Unless your helmet sucks and you lack the mandatory padding underneath, no it won't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oubmAeMuoPk&context=C3813d86ADOEgsToPDskKYPxbeZTagvUaRLWIAZFTJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNDkDOfbbR8&feature=related


Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 04:40:44 pm
We analized this whole vid once in IRC with a few guys.

You.. analized.. it?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Thomek on December 21, 2011, 04:41:18 pm
yeah yeah..

Just seems to me some people totally disregard some of katanas inherent design qualities. Curved blades made a huge impact when they got introduced by the turks. (right?)

It is also a fact that they are stiffer than many european swords. Perhaps because of less structural strength of the steel so they had to be thicker, perhaps because of the curved shape, perhaps because they were meant to be short and practical for duels and personal weaponry. Not for warfare..

ok im not hijacking thread here.. move on :)

(I'm sure you analized the whole vid with a few guys. Curved blade. Curved blade. The point of impact becomes MUCH smaller, and you add a cutting motion to a hit in many circumstances. Curved blade man!)
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2011, 04:42:49 pm
You.. analized.. it?

Typo.

I was busy while writing it, shit happens.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 04:44:35 pm
shit happens.

Especially when analizing.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2011, 04:44:50 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 04:46:05 pm
What I would like to have for a better plate armor feeling would be a dualistic damage system like in XCOM with lasting mortal damage and recoverable stun damage, which has its max at the normal health left. With that plate users would mostly receive stun damage, which they could recover over time or with a special time consuming, exposing action. If a player takes as much stun damage as he has health left, he falls unconscious and is out of the round as with a normal death.

Plate users can't really outrun their opponents and people in lighter armor would mostly receive mortal damage. With that kiting away to recover wouldn't be that much of a problem. It might be a problem with tin cans on horses though.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Thomek on December 21, 2011, 04:52:42 pm
Together with stamina that would be interesting Paul..

Just a note from another video of these german maniacs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=417CVCQ5eE4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=417CVCQ5eE4&feature=related)

Those short hammers seems much more scary than the swords. With the big ass swords there doesn't seem to be enough time or distance to fully utilize the potential energy stored in them. The short 1h blunt weapons however get's serious speed up.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 09:50:39 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oubmAeMuoPk&feature=player_detailpage#t=71s

Awesome takedown there, I wonder if some middle-age fencing manual teaches it? Looks very effective, I'd like to learn it.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on December 21, 2011, 10:19:10 pm
What I would like to have for a better plate armor feeling would be a dualistic damage system like in XCOM with lasting mortal damage and recoverable stun damage, which has its max at the normal health left. With that plate users would mostly receive stun damage, which they could recover over time or with a special time consuming, exposing action. If a player takes as much stun damage as he has health left, he falls unconscious and is out of the round as with a normal death.

Plate users can't really outrun their opponents and people in lighter armor would mostly receive mortal damage. With that kiting away to recover wouldn't be that much of a problem. It might be a problem with tin cans on horses though.

I've contemplated a system like that as well. Do you think something like it is possible for Crpg?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 10:35:33 pm
Possible, yes. Doing other stuff is more important though.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Tigero on December 23, 2011, 09:28:21 pm
Elric whatever, I do give you respect for your unique hobby, but i think you are way too full of yourself... I mean, while those duels may not be absolute larping they still are very larpish, couple slow, uncontrolled hits there, and couple here, and no good stabs in the swordfights. Ofcourse, no-one wants to get killed in these kinds of duels (obviously) so they are 'softcore' and i hope you act accordingly.

Go and play some icehockey, take a couple tackles, or have a duel with someone who has took a couple aikido lessons, then come back showing off here.
Btw. nice 'flamberge' on one of the videos, but with that slow swings you couldn't cut even a banana.



If you want to see some ''menly'' knightly acts with some serious damage go to youtube and search for full-tilt jousting. If you want to see sword techniques search for aikido.


-Troll

Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 23, 2011, 11:15:27 pm
I'm sorry, but you must have missed the part where I mentioned the escrima-training, and applying it to real life.

I'm not full of myself.
I know that I'm not the best fighter, I'm decent, and still have a long way to go.

But I'm full of the way we do our thing, yes I am.
I'm full of my trainer, yes I am.
16 years of martial arts experience in Escrima and Jiu Jitsu, and being a punk out on the streets in his younger years, he knows the rules and brawls of the streets well. Being a very decent guy makes him pretty much the perfect trainer.

Also, Yes, that flamberge is seriously huge, slow, and not even meant to dueling, it's meant for hacking pikes.

The lad using it is a good lad, but he's not training with us. He's training with group focused alot more on "RAW POWAR".
He wanted that flamberge, even though we told him it wouldn't be very effective, but he wanted it. As long as he enjoys it...

I'm learning to use more finesse effectiveness, thanks to my trainer. I've become rather effective at dishing out fast and strong hits, rather than wide swinging motions - as you mentioned, those are not exactly the epitome of effectiveness.

But excuse me, I'm used to being underestimated.

I've sustained more damage, hits and injuries than most people think I have, and I've won more fights out of sheer determination than people guess. I've been tackled, I've been cut, I've been splintered, I've been scarred, (In medieval combat and out there in the "real life") but I always stood my ground.

I have great respect for the eastern martial arts, but I honestly doubt their perfection and ultimate effectiveness many people see in them. Yes, I'd try to take on an Aikido master. Yes, I'd probably fail. But I'd try.

Someone who just took a couple of lessons though, I've took some lessons of my own. Bring it on. Armour or not, I don't care.

I can see why you would underestimate me, as I'm not the most tall, big, muscled and evil looking person in the world, and I won't go around making challenges on the internet to you, like I did with the other people that underestimated me and talked behind my back in real life, but I can tell you:

I've heard what you've said so many times before, been underestimated so many times before, proved people wrong so many times before. I've explained myself on so many occasions already, I honestly don't see the point in trying to convince you concerning anything.


But, alas, you're not a troll.

Just someone who underestimates things, and people.
Then again, this is the internet, and it's hard to judge a person.


But this is becoming a rather off-topic discussion, isn't it?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Xant on December 23, 2011, 11:20:32 pm
Let the records show that the stakes have been raised: hockey and aikido.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: MountedRhader on December 23, 2011, 11:28:19 pm
Well, not to forget armor-piercing (!) daggers, of course.
:D
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Loar Avel on December 24, 2011, 01:42:15 am
For the first question.

Chainmail, gauntlet, helmet, I miss some money for complete plate (for now... But one day! :twisted:)

And since I'm into the amhe (Art Martiaux historique et européen, in english HEMA (historical, european martial art) I learned longsword (and some other thing, like basic saber, staff, daguer, etc.)


Now, time to feed the troll!

Fight in armor with sword? 15 th?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfrmCUGoKE

More this kind of thing, halfsword and try to hit the weak spot/ make them fall or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoHWV1vaVs&feature=related

Just shoot them... 15th after all.

Now feeding another troll!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related)
well.. Katana beats the longsword in the thrust because it is stiffer (thicker).

The katana beats the longsword in cutting because of curved blade.

etc.

Most important difference between Katana and longsword.    Longsword is a shock weapon, not katana.
Katana are made only for cutting people, you're not hitting/parrying (directly) another katana with it, nor bashing an armor.
Stiffer the blade, easier it's break.

And so, longsword can block, katana must deviate.


Also, katana don't have a Pommel (and it's an awesome tool when you're handling your weapon, and it's also a nice hammer when you're oponant is a little to close)
Katana guard is round and only for protecting the hand.
Sword guard is cross and is use for protecting the hand, control enemy sword, and bashing head.


Now feeding, the last troll...

For Elric_de_Melnibone, Work on your feet! the feeeeeeeet! Feet are the basics.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 24, 2011, 09:35:39 am


For Elric_de_Melnibone, Work on your feet! the feeeeeeeet! Feet are the basics.

The importance of footwork always depends on the fighting style, but I'll admit that footwork always has been kind of neglected by me.
It's slowly getting better, but yeah.  :P


Thank you for listing up all the advantages of the longsword.

But I guess we should probably focus more on the original question of the topic: Ever used real armour, and how did that work out?
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Bobthehero on December 24, 2011, 09:52:05 am
Mail + leather > Sharp sword.

Did the test instead of cleaning my room...
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Elric_de_Melnibone on December 24, 2011, 09:55:51 am
But oh my god, if mail + leather already stops sharp swords, how effective must plate armour be? This is incredible!

Kidding aside, thanks for making the test.  :)

It backs up the argument that armour was better than most people think it was, because hey, they wouldn't have used it if it didn't help them survive.
Title: Re: Ever used real armor?
Post by: Bobthehero on December 24, 2011, 10:00:38 am
Fairly simple test to do, put mail gauntlet on hand, grab sword, smash hand. I felt a small pain, not crippling at all, skin was a bit red, nothing else.