cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Siboire on December 15, 2011, 05:59:44 am
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I'm tired to see tin cans or any other heavies run as fast as anybody else in medium armor. It's stupid.
Waltz if I remember correctly, even made some tests and he came up with proof that going heavy has almost no down sides beside the price cuz the speed panalty is almost inexistent.
I was in white tunic over mail with some mail mittens and boots (light-medium armor) and I had 5 ath but a tin can managed to out-run me!
Anyway, gonna make a poll.
I would not be surprise if all the plate/str crutchers say no to this...
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Plate ''crutcher'' here.
So yeah... no, enough with the nerf.
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I'd much rather see armor scaled down so the most you could get would be about 60. Then rescale all other damage appropriately. Slightly reduce the numerical damage on pierce/blunt attacks, lower bow damage by a point or two, then force cut damage at all times and slightly buff bodkin damage. Scale down xbow damage by about 10-15% etc...
When you can have up to 80 armor, trying to balance equipment gets a bit ridiculous. It becomes easy to have weapons that are extremely strong against low armored targets, but not very good against plate(War Spear) or weapons that are great against plate but are absolutely atrocious against lightly armored, fast opponents(great maul). Variety is great and having specialized weapons is a terrific idea, but right now I think the extremes are too far out. Not to mention, because of this huge disparity between armor values of players, 1hers(the class) get forced into specific builds if they want to ensure that every other hit isn't a glance on a plate guy.
Edit: Somehow I almost forgot how I originally decided that I wanted to see a balance change like this. It was a discussion about variety. I believe lowering the amount of armor equipment gives as well as scaling back the higher end armors further, would greatly increase the viability of agility builds which would in turn, increase the viability of heavier str builds as well(If there are more agi builds, then there are more people running around that high str builds can 1-3 shot). Everything becomes just a bit more viable.
Edit 2: Of course, this is a change directed at crpg, not strategus(though no one even has plate armor in strat, so no biggie I guess.)
Would be interesting to see what other people thought about this.
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no. this buffs archers.
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Much rather see a buff to athletics and a real benefit to lighter armor. 5 athletics.. well, that's a bit low to consider yerself a speedster.
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Not a bad idea. High armor is still too effective with little penalties, this needs to change.
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Yeah right, as if plate isn't nerfed enough already.
It doesn't protect as it should (in real life)
It slows your attacks down (it doesn't in real life)
It slows you down already (it doesn't in real life)
Repairs cost an insane amount of money if you don't go and sell heirlooms all day (you can repair usual battle-damage yourself with the right hammers in real life)
As a person that wears plate armour in real life on a regular basis, I think it's way too handicapped already.
Of course I admit that game balance is important, so I don't whine about the current situation too much.
But nerfing it even more, hell no. Fuck off.
Especially if it's a ridiculous thing like movement speed, which is completely unrealistic, and after all, M&B does try to simulate the medieval warfare, doesn't it?
Cutting corners for balance is okay, but nerfing movement speed would not only cut a corner, it would cut much, much more.
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Oh the bias in you
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Plate has never been a problem. It's the weight 17-22 armors which are still a bit too effective, IMO.
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Plate has never been a problem. It's the weight 17-22 armors which are still a bit too effective, IMO.
Agree here, specially loomed Heraldic Transitional. That being said I'm still fast as shit in Plate armour with 7 ath.
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Agree here, specially loomed Heraldic Transitional.
Pierce damage is your friend. Those loomed Transitional armors goes down like a charm with a good pierce weapon and some speed bonus to boot.
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Pierce damage is your friend. Those loomed Transitional armors goes down like a charm with a good pierce weapon and some speed bonus to boot.
True, I've got a +2 morningstar for those guys. What bothers me that a lot of those guys can still effectively move in and out of range of my morningstar even when wearing all that weight.
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its the maneuver penalty any heavy armors that gives the balance
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What maneuver penalty? I believe I can turn just as fast with plate.
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What maneuver penalty? I believe I can turn just as fast with plate.
nope, there is actually a quite noticable differance. run in a straight line and than do zig zag moves with a and d, not the mouse. takes way longer. at least for me with 6 athletics
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I'll test this later today.
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It slows you down already (it doesn't in real life)
The OP is saying a person in med armor would be faster than a person in Plate, which is true.
Oh and I have worn 16th century Full Plate and I dont think I could of run fast in it.
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Using real life arguments for game balancing is fail anyway.
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I had loomed lamellar armor ( 17.2 weight) and 5 athletics, than i switched to loomed druzhina elite lamellar armor (21.4 weight) and instantly felt how much slower i became, so i actually had to change my build to get more athletics. Just an observation. Whoever says athletics doesnt benefit you enough, well i couldn't disagree more.
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Both medium-heavy and heavy armors have too few drawbacks in my opinion, speed being one.
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I'm tired to see tin cans or any other heavies run as fast as anybody else in medium armor. It's stupid.
So this is no bias, eh?
I'm not saying that I'm unbiased, but I already admitted that it's okay to cut corners on realism for game balance.
But just asking for a nerf like this out of the blue is stupid. It most likely came up due to the OP being killed by plate users he ran away from. Probably because they had higher athletics skill?
As Ujin already said, it's all about athletics.
Of course a plate user with 6 athletics will be faster than a peasant with 0 athletics.
A fit person will (almost) always be faster than a person not as fit, no matter what clothing or armour the fit person wears.
Plate armour exhausts you more than light armour, that's true. But it doesn't make you run slower. Not one bit.
In fact, it affects accelration, not "maximum" speed.
You might take longer to get to run at full speed, but once you're at full speed, you're a rolling cannonball made of steel, which few things can stop.
Turning is also affected once you're running, but that's already implemented.
Get enough points in athletics, and you'll easily outrun plate users with equal points in your light armour.
Oh and I have worn 16th century Full Plate and I dont think I could of run fast in it.
Sorry, what? You don't think you could run as fast in it?
You didn't actually run around in it?
You didn't actually use it in combat?
Then don't come in here and spill your opinion like it's the scientific truth.
Yes, real life arguments aren't always applicaple in game balance. But a claim like this is just bullshit.
Besides, the latest plate armour we have in cRPG is 15th century, 16th century is not even represented in the game except for the morion.
I'm just tired of people whining about armour that's already so dumbed down from it's true effectiveness for the sake of game balance, and still get killed by people using it.
Yeah, right. Nerf it some more. Take the last reasons to use plate.
People rarely run around in plate anyways. What reason, except novelty, would be left to just use your epic plate armour once in a while when it's nerfed so hard that it's not more effective than medium / light armour?
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Yes I said I think because even walking was hard......
But I agree with you he got killed by a guy in plate and moans, every type of class moans about another, I think the game is balanced at the moment and you can counter anything by making different builds.
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Yes I said I think because even walking was hard......
Look, I'm sorry, but you probably just weren't used to it one bit.
You get used to wearing armour, and once you coped with the additional weight, it'll feel like walking / running normally.
Besides, it was probably a tournament or cavalry armour.
Those were VERY heavy in 16th century, since they were made to withstand the new bullet weapons.
We don't have those armours in cRPG.
Those armours are good to move and fight in. I'm the proof of that, as are many others.
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Btw where did i say the tin can killed me? Be sure to read what i wrote before saying something that did not happened lol.
I know at 5 ath im not a speedy but i personnaly dont feel much acceleration problem when i am either running in cuir bouillie or plate.
I know with all the range and cav fests on battle, heavy is the easiest way to go but i still find it stupid that i can't outrun easily somebody with 5-6 ath in heavy armor. Considering i have 5 ath this should technically be easy to do in my light-medium armor set.
Edit: me and my buddy even did some tests. He was in light gear (padded jack, shitty helmet and boots with a 5 kg shield) at 5 ath and i was in my same equipment (chapel de fer, tunic overmail, mail boots and glove with a 6kg shield) and i was outrunning him with 5 ath (same as him!!)! Something is not right here! Im not
just talking about me having some meters in front of him, im talking about me running so fast he could not
keep up with me and i had to wait for him to get up to me.
Ill need to test this again but that was funny as hell, i dont know what could have made me run a lot faster then him considering he was just behind me when we started running but it sure made us laugh...
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Remove all the heavy armors to stop the tin can noob whine crowd from keep posting about it.
Heavy armors are all ready useless an expensive an slows you down alot compared to the lighter versions only reason some people still use em is to avoid looking like a kuyak rus clone like everyone else.
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Could it be that he interrupted his "sprint" bonus by pressing a or d for sidestepping by accident?
You get a sprint bonus for running forward for a few seconds if you don't sidestep and just turn using the mouse.
If you knew that already, then I apologise. Then something weird is going on, if you had the same athletics.
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Like I said in another thread it's stupid that plate requirement is 15 strength and that is one of the reasons you see tincans move so fast.
Medium armour should start from 15 and plate weight should start from 18 to 21.
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Yeah right, as if plate isn't nerfed enough already.
It doesn't protect as it should (in real life)
It slows your attacks down (it doesn't in real life)
It slows you down already (it doesn't in real life)
Repairs cost an insane amount of money if you don't go and sell heirlooms all day (you can repair usual battle-damage yourself with the right hammers in real life)
As a person that wears plate armour in real life on a regular basis, I think it's way too handicapped already.
Of course I admit that game balance is important, so I don't whine about the current situation too much.
But nerfing it even more, hell no. Fuck off.
Especially if it's a ridiculous thing like movement speed, which is completely unrealistic, and after all, M&B does try to simulate the medieval warfare, doesn't it?
Cutting corners for balance is okay, but nerfing movement speed would not only cut a corner, it would cut much, much more.
You know, even Usain bolt wear little underwear plate armor. That's why he is so fast.
Vexus
ATM armor weighing 10 kilograms have 10 str as requirement . Just make this linear: armor weight 20 = requirement 20 str, armor weight 30 = requirement 30 str etc...
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Edit: me and my buddy even did some tests. He was in light gear (padded jack, shitty helmet and boots with a 5 kg shield) at 5 ath and i was in my same equipment (chapel de fer, tunic overmail, mail boots and glove with a 6kg shield) and i was outrunning him with 5 ath (same as him!!)! Something is not right here! Im not
just talking about me having some meters in front of him, im talking about me running so fast he could not
keep up with me and i had to wait for him to get up to me.
If the shields were on your back, then you can't forget about weapon length which affects speed. If he had a glaive and you a simple one hander or a morningstar, you're going to be a fair bit faster because of the penalty he receives.
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Duh....
You are slow enough in heavy armor...
Slow enough for most to run away and thats for additional protection (1 sometimes 2 blows)
Thats a fair trade....so please stop acting like 20 + weight only have bright sides....simply not true.
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I'm tired to see tin cans or any other heavies run as fast as anybody else in medium armor. It's stupid.
Waltz if I remember correctly, even made some tests and he came up with proof that going heavy has almost no down sides beside the price cuz the speed panalty is almost inexistent.
If athletics are equal between 2 players and the only difference is armor I agree. If the heavy armor guy has more athletics than another player then he should be pretty quick. But what I'd really like to see is a stamina bar depending on your athletics+armor weight.
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Could it be that he interrupted his "sprint" bonus by pressing a or d for sidestepping by accident?
You get a sprint bonus for running forward for a few seconds if you don't sidestep and just turn using the mouse.
If you knew that already, then I apologise. Then something weird is going on, if you had the same athletics.
Yes I know that, we were running in straight line and no, he did not pressed any key :)
For the weapons we were carrying, he was with an italian sword (no secondary weapon) and I was with a elite scimi and a fighting axe sheated. But that was once. Gotta do more tests, maybe it was some kind of bug...
As it feels now, athletics has huge impact on speed yet armor has very little (even less on swinging speed), which should change IMO. Speedies with 7-8 ath in heavy should be slowed down a lot more. Maybe make the penalty affect athletics too? Like, the more athletics you have, the bigger the penalty gets from weight... Just throwing a random idea like that...
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If the shields were on your back, then you can't forget about weapon length which affects speed. If he had a glaive and you a simple one hander or a morningstar, you're going to be a fair bit faster because of the penalty he receives.
Shield on back and shield in hand gives the same speed penalty. Only weapons have the added length penalty.
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Shield on back and shield in hand gives the same speed penalty. Only weapons have the added length penalty.
Right, I said that because I wasn't about to start assuming that just because he had a shield, he was also a 1her, which is why I made mention of the glaive(polearm, cannot be used with a shield).
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Like, the more athletics you have, the bigger the penalty gets from weight
I could live with that solution.
Especially as it wouldn't "pick on plate users only", but affect all heavier armour.
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I feel like plate armour should instead have less resistance to cut damage, as it straight up ignores one handers... Speed itself isnt too bad... Though requirements should probably be raised. (though I'm basing this off prior to recent armour nerf patch)
Also, whats the deal with being able to wear plate, but not wear any of the cool helmets? It's disappointing!
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But plate armour -does- completely ignore cut damage.
You can't cut plate armour with swords.
At least some amount of realism should remain, in my opinion.
Pierce and blunt are your friend.
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Im a rock scissor is fine but nerf paper
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Im a rock scissor is fine but nerf paper
I'm speechless...
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Im a rock scissor is fine but nerf paper
Nooooo! Scissors is the enemy!
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Im a rock scissor is fine but nerf paper
Poor, predictable Tsar: Always chooses rock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMxzU6hxrNA
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But plate armour -does- completely ignore cut damage.
You can't cut plate armour with swords.
At least some amount of realism should remain, in my opinion.
Game balance is infinitely more important than realism.
Plate should offer a slight advantage. It should not allow bad players to get by without blocking.
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Well armour is a difficult topic.
It should protect you better than the peasant stuff, but it should not have all the advantages.
Yes there are a wpf and speed penalty, but these are hardly noticable.
The tincans will now scream "lies!" and thats why i have made a video.
As distance i have chosen the double of lenght of the war spear with various load outs.
My athletic skill is 7 and i have needed
1.75 sec with the amazon setup (4.7 kg weight with 0 armour value)
1.77 sec with my standard light armour (9.4 kg weight with 24 armour value)
2.00 sec with a medium armour mailshirt (18.8 kg weight and 44 armour value)
2.16 sec with a heavy plate armour (37.7 kg weight and 64 armour value)
So in the end i gain 0.23 sec for for 50% of the weight and 54% of armour against medium infantry,
or 0.39 sec for 25% of the weight and 37% of the amour against knights.
running speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
the first part is normal speed, the second 50% slow-motion.
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Thx! This is a valuable intel! This is exactly what I'm trying to explain. It needs to change.
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Game balance is infinitely more important than realism.
Nobody ever says, "Oh I remember that game! It was so balanced, I loved it!"
Nope, the experience is infinitely more important than balance and you are simply expecting that less armor vs more armor MUST be an equally viable choice, when it really doesn't have to be that way at all.
Mount and Blade wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the devs wanting a "realistic" medieval combat game, rather than the same pop-culture rock paper scissor BS that has come to be expected by every other halfwit out there.
Gunpowder weapons need to be imported into Calradia, that's all :D
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Gunpowder weapons need to be imported into Calradia, that's all :D
Trolling or you're just ... ?
Mount and Blade wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the devs wanting a "realistic" medieval combat game, rather than the same pop-culture rock paper scissor BS that has come to be expected by every other halfwit out there.
Herp Derp...
A RPG needs to be balanced in order to make all classes viable.
Let's get back on topic.
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Trolling or you're just ... ?
I'm suggesting balance by addition of items rather than distortion of existing items
or you're just...?
Herp Derp...
A RPG needs to be balanced in order to make all classes viable.
Let's get back on topic.
So who said it was necessary for a "role-playing game" to have classes? How do you define these classes?
Should the "naked rock throwing class" be equally viable to any other "class"? What items represent a certain class and what items are universals throughout different classes?
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Mount and Blade wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the devs wanting a "realistic" medieval combat game, rather than the same pop-culture rock paper scissor BS that has come to be expected by every other halfwit out there.
Realistic like a stick blocking a lance thrusted from a heavy charger? Realistic like a one-handed sword blocking an overhead strike from a great axe? Realistic like player dodging arrows by zig-zagging while running? Or maybe even realistic like a player surviving being repeatedly ran over by a horse?
All these things are unrealistic, but they are all vitally important for balance. If you don't have balance, then player skill becomes meaningless - it becomes a game of equipment. Without player skill playing a vital role, the game becomes pointless to play.
Gear should play a minor role, but the primary deciding factor in every fight should be the skills of the players fighting. A mediocre player in plate should still be mediocre.
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Id really like a push, since there is wse, to define weapon damage effects vrs armor type. Basically, if your fighting plate, you must use blunt or pierce. Cut will only glance, unless the "cut" weapon has a certain weight above say 4kg. Then it will deal a level of blunt damage based off the weight. If that's too complex then keep as cut. We are already seeing weapons have secondary modes based on their models. So, why not give those secondaries more purpose. As far as making cut effective, its damage would be given a bonus inversely proportonal to the level of armor. Ie, even if your a str build in light leather, you will be one shotted by most cut damage types. You might say this would favour pierce and blunt too much, but there is always damage reductions and speed reductions that can be tweaked.
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Realistic like a stick blocking a lance thrusted from a heavy charger? Realistic like a one-handed sword blocking an overhead strike from a great axe? Or maybe realistic like player dodging arrows by zig-zagging while running?
Those things are unrealistic (maybe less so with the last example) and I wish they didn't happen in the game. Doesn't mean M&B isn't realistic compared to other games.
All these are things are unrealistic, but they are all vitally important for balance.
I don't believe they are vitally important for balance, but I won't argue why here.
If you don't have balance, then player skill becomes meaningless - it becomes a game of equipment. Without player skill playing a vital role, the game becomes pointless to play.
If the game only consisted of 2h'd plated knights, it could be balanced. Just because there is the presence of a tool or combination of gear DOES NOT mean it has to be equally viable as the other combinations. A player's ability to choose the best tools/gear for the job is part of their skill at the game.
It only becomes a game of equipment if you are too stupid/unskilled at selecting the best gear for the job. You can argue that a game needs variety, but that is a different argument, albeit persuasive. On the other hand, variety of game play styles can be accomplished in many ways, not necessarily by distortion of existing equipment.
Gear should play a minor role, but the primary deciding factor in every fight should be the skills of the players fighting. A mediocre player in plate should still be mediocre.
To what extent does the selection of gear represent a player's skill at the game? I do agree with you though, a mediocre player in plate should be mediocre, and in most situations I have found that they are actually, with running speed having little to do with their success.
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Those things are unrealistic (maybe less so with the last example) and I wish they didn't happen in the game. Doesn't mean M&B isn't realistic compared to other games.
If they didn't happen, then a bad player could rack up kills simply by virtue of his build and equipment. Running a player over is easy. Overheading a player is easy.
A player's ability to choose the best tools/gear for the job is part of their skill at the game.
If all players could afford to pay the upkeep on plate, then you would see the majority of melee players using it. The only tradeoff is money.
To what extent does the selection of gear represent a player's skill at the game?
A player in heavy plate can often simply ignore blows from a decent one-handed player with a balanced build (18/18 or 18/21), and win by doing nothing more than attempting to repeatedly castor while facehugging. There is a substantial chance the one-hander will glance, and the fight will be over. Even if he doesn't glance, he's looking at well over ten hits to kill his opponent.
Plate allows a player who cannot consistently block to get kills he would not otherwise be able to get. Using gear to compensate for a lack of individual skill should not be an option - the only option should be to get better.
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Those tests walt did were for the previous version of athletics which imho was much better.
Before athletics only effected acceleration, everyone had the same top speed regardless
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Plate allows a player who cannot consistently block to get kills he would not otherwise be able to get. Using gear to compensate for a lack of individual skill should not be an option - the only option should be to get better.
Then why have plate in the game? Why have different weapons, better weapons?
Should danish greatswords be nerfed? Should bec de corbins be nerfed down to hafted blade levels for balance? Then we can get rid of gold altogether right?
I don't think you've considered your own logic very thoroughly or you are actually radical in that you want all items to be statistically balanced, to do away with gold altogether. Should players be rewarded for time spent playing in the form of gold and stat increases and does this allow for the possibility of "objectively" better armor? Where is the line for you for how much better gear can get? Sorry for questioning, I'm just trying to make a point.
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Then why have plate in the game? Why have different weapons, better weapons?
For variety. Once you get past the peasant gear, no item should just be a straight-up better version of another item.
Should danish greatswords be nerfed?
Pretty much all of the greatswords have different tradeoffs - aside from one or two mediocre swords, they are all fairly well balanced. They are all also accessible to pretty much any player.
Should bec de corbins be nerfed down to hafted blade levels for balance?
The bec is both shorter and slower than the hafted blade. That extra length is really important for polearms, which lose a great deal of length from their animations.
Should players be rewarded for time spent playing in the form of gold and stat increases and does this allow for the possibility of "objectively" better armor? Where is the line for you for how much better gear can get?
Top-tier armor should at best let you occasionally survive an extra hit or two over the lower tier equipment. Top-tear weapons should at best let you get a kill with one less hit.
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If armor weight matters more, could weapon length matter a little less for speed?
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For variety. Once you get past the peasant gear, no item should just be a straight-up better version of another item.
Pretty much all of the greatswords have different tradeoffs - aside from one or two mediocre swords, they are all fairly well balanced. They are all also accessible to pretty much any player.
The bec is both shorter and slower than the hafted blade. That extra length is really important for polearms, which lose a great deal of length from their animations.
Okay, would you support leveling the gold cost on these items because they are balanced as you put it? As in, decrease cost of greatswords and bec?
Top-tier armor should at best let you occasionally survive an extra hit or two over the lower tier equipment. Top-tear weapons should at best let you get a kill with one less hit.
Okay. Now, if top-tier armor allows you to survive an extra three hits and weapons let you get a kill with two less hits, wouldn't skilled/rational players simply increase the lowest level of armor/weapon they allow themselves?
I think our disagreement here may inevitably be over a subjective line in the sand: Your way having a very narrow margin for player investment (gold) to make a difference and mine having a wider one. The benefits of a narrower margin is that it divorces a singular combat situation from wider contexts (Gold gained through other battles), which is better for newer players and narrows the outcome to pure mouse moving skill (which some may find attractive). The benefits of a wider margin is that a singular combat situation is placed within a wider context (the player's gold gain history and upkeep strategies) and that may give people a sense of continuity or larger strategy (For instance, deciding that you will expend a large amount of your gold gained in a heavy cavalry stint, to turn a series of battles in your favor). There is another benefit of the wider margin version, in that it is a closer simulation of the asymmetries of medieval warfare, which some may find fun/interesting/challenging. Therefore, I do not support increasing the weight penalties of heavy armor because I am okay with a wider margin for those reasons. Also, because players aren't/shouldn't be "stuck" to any one particular class or combination of gear, I believe players basically have equal opportunity to adapt their load-outs, thus load-outs do not have to be equally viable. Whether the current gold gain/upkeep system works for either narrow or wide margin versions is another matter.
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ArchonAlarion, you're illogical, go polute another one's thread, or better! Go make your own!
Now, let's get back on topic plz:
How armor weight should give a bigger penalty to the running speed.
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TL;DR
Archon, go play 2010 CRPG! :mrgreen:
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ArchonAlarion, you're illogical, go polute another one's thread, or better! Go make your own!
How am I being illogical? I'm explaining the idea that the desire for weightier armor is tied to a different concept of the game, which may or may not be more entertaining for a player, depending on their personal preferences.
Now, let's get back on topic plz:
How armor weight should give a bigger penalty to the running speed.
It shouldn't because (I believe) m&b's/crpg's most defining, unique, and entertaining quality is its simulation of medieval combat, including asymmetries of playstyles and load-outs. These styles are still ultimately up to the player to choose, representing different self-chosen levels of difficulty, potentially being better or worse in wider economic contexts (gold gain/upkeep/strategus), or having potential for teamwork despite individual weakness.
Is this thread only for those who support your opinion?
@Pieparadox: I'm writing an annotated bibliography for school about medieval military technology :(
Well, procrastinating now I guess.
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It shouldn't because (I believe) m&b's/crpg's most defining, unique, and entertaining quality is its simulation of medieval combat, including asymmetries of playstyles and load-outs. These styles are still ultimately up to the player to choose, representing different self-chosen levels of difficulty, potentially being better or worse in wider economic contexts (gold gain/upkeep/strategus), or having potential for teamwork despite individual weakness.
Is this thread only for those who support your opinion?
I support and back that statement - because it's exactly the thing that got me into Mount & Blade.
The wide range of potential playstyles and loadouts is one of the games' unique concepts.
Balancing heavy, medium and light armour so hard, that they are almost equal ony every level, like the "plate should only allow to take 1 - 2 more blows concept, would make the gameplay become very, very stale and boring in my opinion.
Completely killing variety and differences just for the sake of balance is way too extreme, and already turned too many games into games with ONE faction, and several different looks for it.
Heavy armour doesn't give too much of an advantage in my opinion - the more skilled player will always be the victor, no matter the equipment. Look at all the tincans getting mowed down by people wearing light armour, skilled people. It's not a free ticket to a good score, it's a style, design, way to play and represent yourself on the battlefield.
If we follow the route Vodner suggests, we would end up with hundreds of items and loadouts to use, which all of almost exactly the same stats and strengths, except maybe 1 - 2 points difference in something.
Sorry, that's not what I want.
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High armor doesn't affect maximum running speed, but massively reduces acceleration. It's quite balanced at the moment. But I think a nerf to the highly armored people max speed is in order. Of course, the upkeep of high armor should be lowered to balance it up.
Currently, it requires very specific playstyle to play an armor crutcher effectively. I bought a +3 Black Armor just to test it out, and respecced as a 30/9 2h (10PS, 10IF). People hardly ever bounce on this armor, which makes it absolutely worthless since that even with a very long weapon, most people can evade my swings without any problems. Moreover, 90% of the top players wear medium armor, which tells a lot about the actual light vs heavy armor balance.
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I've been trying to get rid of my heavy armor for a long time but heavy armor holds no value on the market place due to the massive penalty all rdy given to it Medium armors are the best armors ingame just look at the market...
don't think chadz is gonna bring moar nerfs to heavy armor unless they decide to remove it completely or replace the high tier ones with new and more light/medium armors.
To the OP try an use a heavy armor before whining about it.
I use mine to look unique an to avoid being another kuyak / rus armor clone but have to live with the slow ass acceleration penalty plus high upkeep...
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You are not slow in plate armour and the only real trade off is the upkeep.
And yes you can kill knights while wearing light armour, but you have all the disadvantages.
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High armor doesn't affect maximum running speed
If it doesn't, then it reduces acceleration so much that it takes minutes to reach maximum speed. Try it with a high athletics character, run naked and then in black armor and a shield. You won't reach the same speed.
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And yes you can kill knights while wearing light armour, but you have all the disadvantages.
All the disadvantages? Speed over survivability any day of the week.
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What speed?
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Tzar, me and my clan were called so many times plate crutchers and stuff like that cuz, before must of us re-specced, we were mainly 2h tin cans. I was part of those so called "plate crutchers", I know how it is in plate. And honestly, beside the upkeep, there is no real downside with plate. The upkeep is the sole reason I left that play style. I would not mind to see more tin cans (lower upkeep) as long as they increase the speed penalty with it (or increase the str requirement) so that agi builds can't wear it and run fast...
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Tzar, me and my clan were called so many times plate crutchers and stuff like that cuz, before must of us re-specced, we were mainly 2h tin cans. I was part of those so called "plate crutchers", I know how it is in plate. And honestly, beside the upkeep, there is no real downside with plate. The upkeep is the sole reason I left that play style. I would not mind to see more tin cans (lower upkeep) as long as they increase the speed penalty with it (or increase the str requirement) so that agi builds can't wear it and run fast...
Your dumb if you really value plate armor so much... why dont we trade armor so you can get my super armor as you call it?
check the market place my offer is out lets trade then...... also u cant armor crutch anymore since the new soak value came out unless your facing ninja´s with 4 ps cut weapons who dont aim an just spam at you. :lol:
Anyways i dont have or tried using super heavy plate armor after the new soak values but my last gen as sheidler with 5 ps an scimitar i didnt have a problem against plate users as you describe.
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LOL but we still got called names like "noob crutching on plates" and shit... really made us laugh for the same reasons u just described... but no thx for ur plate lol.
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LOL but we still got called names like "noob crutching on plates" and shit... really made us laugh for the same reasons u just described... but no thx for ur plate lol.
So you admit plate is crab compared to medium armors thx to the faster acceleration in which you can get in an out of peoples swings?
Basically you trade speed an maneuverability for being able to survive one more hit by using plate armor as it is in its current stat.
Medium armors provide almost the same protection after the new soak values as plate armor... medium armor is the best choice in regards of armor picks since paul reduced the chance of glancing blows.
People like me who use khergit elite armor for style and roleplay are all ready getting punished by the weight all ready placed upon us your asking for more?
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No, I had no problem using plate. The only downside was the upkeep and I wanted to trade my heirloomed plate for a weapon. A shield (like huscarl) affects more ur running speed then plate armor -_- ...
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Most of NA and from what I've seen from EU, consists of heavy armor or at least, what used to be 40+ armor until the recent patch that nerfed it below 40(Heraldic Mail). Throw in gloves and looms and that means those people are 50+armor. Which isn't anything like what I'd call "medium" armor.
Furthermore, the soak factor was nerfed but the reduce was buffed. Have you not realized that you take twice as many hits compared to before the change? Plate allows you to live a hell of a lot longer, especially if you have the IF to go with it. I've had a fully loomed plate set and used it for more than just a couple gens, I know exactly what it does. You have to spend time adjusting to the speed difference but once you do, living through a minimum of twice as many swings as someone in a cavalry robe, is a pretty big advantage.
Speed may be great, but it doesn't allow you to get free hits in. Speed gets negated quite a bit by backpedaling and a simple mouse turn. You're not going to be able to get behind someone just because you're faster than them, if they're used to their own speed and are moderately skilled. Speed comes into play in two places, wpf and playing the range game, that is, dodging your opponents swing and following up with your own, before your opponent has recovered from his swing.
Due to WM and WPF mechanics, any gains from having light armor are generally extremely minimal. There are only a few cases where you can have a fast enough weapon to utilize the additional wpf that you have, without glancing constantly on your plated opponent due to low damage.
Dodging swings and then quickly counter attacking a slow player is only effective as long as your opponent has either ran out of patience, or didn't have any to begin with. Knowing your weapon's length and not getting drawn into the attack/block/attack/block rhythm is a valuable skill for plate wearers. Sometimes you have to know when to block two or three times in a row to catch up to your opponent, and simply knowing this gives you the tools you need to negate their speed advantage.
Simply put, speed does not necessarily mean free hits but plate does necessarily require you getting hit more times to be killed than if you had medium armor. What this means, is that the speed advantage comes about mostly due to a lack of skill from your opponent(the plated guy), meanwhile the plate/armor advantage applies to everyone in all situations, regardless of skill.
edit: consists of heavy armor, not medium, specifically 40-50 body armor base.
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What speed?
Acceleration.
Duelling - ever tried it?
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Totally agree. It is ridiculous that a guy with heavy armour and a heavy 2h weapon outruns me when I only use a 1h sword, a round shield and tribal warrior outfit :rolleyes:
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Acceleration.
Duelling - ever tried it?
running speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
If a tincan not want it, then i am not that faster.
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running speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
If a tincan not want it, then i am not that faster.
Interesting video, never seen strafe speeds in any sort of test. I'd be interested in what the results would be like from running forward over an equally short distance, before sprint kicks in.
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running speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
If a tincan not want it, then i am not that faster.
Make another one that is a bit longer. You can't really test the speed in 1 meter^^
Also your characters in the video start moving slighty at a different time
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That would have been nice if you ran for longer than 1 second. Good split-screen comparison.
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Yes, nerf plate more, it's still too common on the battlefield. Also, buff the underused Kuyak armors.
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The poll is pointless since everyone and their mother runs around in light armor or medium armor and would jizz their pants if heavy armors where nerfed even more....
Biased peice of shit forum... :rolleyes:
Hope the clones don't get their will an fuck up heavy armor even more...
Screw individuality.. this is for you Siboire :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiFXmbf_-k4
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Maybe it would be a good idea to buff the armour of the really heavy stuff, but also raise it's weight that much, that there is a real difference in running speed.
Would balance the game and would make it more realistic^^
A guy in full gothic plate running around as fast as a guy in light armour is as unrealstic as a guy in full gothic plate going down after 3 or 4 arrows from a hornbow (which would actually never get enough power to pierce that plate)
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In the past i have made longer test, but the result was alway similar.
Your are faster with lighter armour, but the effect is minimal.
On a longer track you can beat a plate user about a couple of seconds, but in battle you have a way shorter ways (that is why i have used side steps this time).
I dont ask for gimping heavy armour, it should provide more potection than the lighter counterparts, while offer mobility as well, but i think the payoff could be a bit larger.
Ok, a few rough numbers for my example.
For 1/4 of the weight and 1/3 of the protection i get a 1/5 faster movement.
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I personnally would not mind a buff to heavy armor while increasing (a lot) the speed penalty, though there's already so many str whores that are near unkillable that buffing heavy armor would make them invulnerable to anything but other str whores...
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Yes, nerf plate more, it's still too common on the battlefield. Also, buff the underused Kuyak armors.
topic should've been closed right after this post.
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topic should've been closed right after this post.
Sarcasm?