cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vexus on February 17, 2011, 04:34:52 pm
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Ok so I may get some flames from the cav that only couch but could care less as that is a retarded style to play.
Does cavalry really need to be able to 1 hit people (Since you can't block it apart of a shield) even tough the speed bonus alone from thrusts would be enough to mostly 1 hit anyone?
Nerfs keep on going up and down so 1 hit weapons are lessened but why cav really need the couch? Can I have some reasons? You can bump slash, thrust from far and auto run anyone on foot why you really need also the option to 1 hit kill someone?
Giving the great lance thrust but removing the couch I'm sure people would use it since there's many people with pikes so don't say they wouldn't I for one on my cav would use it if it had thrust instead of couch only.
So tl;dr Give me reasons why cav need couch in other words being able to 1 hit.
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Couching is very easy to dodge, even people with 0 athletics can do it. The coucher also needs to wait a lot of time before attacking over, which means the coucher aint helping that much, and dont make me even start on the hills/stones.. :)
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It was easy before sure, now that most cav have 7 riding a rouncey is super fast hence why I complained when they made riding being able to be upped per 3 agility.
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If its not one hit, i think people will stop using it all together
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Agree with madcat
Also, i play a cav. Im on a courser, and I got 7 riding, and Im the fastest cav Ive met this far, so I dont think a lot of cav are courser with 7 riding. :)
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Speed bonus alone makes most spear hits 1 hit but at least that is blockable.
If its not one hit, i think people will stop using it all together
You think people wouldn't use great lance because It can't couch? 35 pierce on a lance long 230 or 23 blunt from 224 length + speed bonus is not enough damage?
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If that's enough damage to kill in one hit anyway, why do you care if it's couched? Hell, the timer on couching helps you, in that circumstance.
I just view it as part of dealing with cav. If you're paying attention, you can avoid the couch easily. If you're not, you're going to get killed anyway, whether by couch or by regular thrust.
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Simply a thrust can be blocked a couch no.
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Agree with madcat
Also, i play a cav. Im on a courser, and I got 7 riding, and Im the fastest cav Ive met this far, so I dont think a lot of cav are courser with 7 riding. :)
Wanna see my build?
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 7
Agility: 30
Hit points: 42
Converted: 4
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 10
Horse Archery: 5
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 137
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 157
Throwing: 1
10 riding.
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I only ever use couched lance when the enemy doesn't see me or he has a short weapon. Against aware opponents with long weapons it's impossible to hit them with a couched lance before they hit you afaik. And since speed bonus works both ways that's often a onehit kill on you or the horse also.
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Lilith, I got courser & 7 riding skill (8 is coming with 31 lvl) :D
Vexus, did u tried couching? It's allmost impossible to make two couchstrikes on one target & stay out of ranged/pikes at same time. Nerf damage = couch dead. Btw, if u think that couch cant kill with one strike, then what kind of superhumanbeing r we talking about?
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Ive survived couches before when i was pure str.
However couch isn't that dangerous, its easily countered by paying a small amount of gold on a pike or by simply being aware. Occasionally they will get you but most kills are with lance thrusts. No real problem here IMO.
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I have a cav and yes I did try couch yet it's not my fav way of killing as it leaves the other player almost no chance of survival.
I said couch can 1 hit not that it doesn't 1 hit.
[Edit]
The point of the thread is that cav don't need couching as using a heavy lance is more then enough apart of pikes which giving great lance thrust would be a solution.
Killing people as cav is easy very easy till your horse is alive.
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I only use couch when Im attacking an enemy that is always blocking. When he does that, I know he wont attack me, and only then do I use this vulnerable attack.
Riding: 10
o.O
I want!
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Casimir is talking about that you want to MAKE couching NOT 1 hitting. And he is pointing at what superuberhumans are we going to kill? Irl noone can survive couched lance, usually even just thrust with lance, but Warband is balanced enough to not 1hit everyone with any type of hit from lance at full horse speed :)
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Simply a thrust can be blocked a couch no.
that's wrong.
you can damn easily chamber block a couched lance with a spear thrust or 2h sword thrust
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Are you sure a couch can be chambered? Since it has no attack animation and all.
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Lilith, if you dont want to be horse crossbowman like me, i can give you build for cavalry with 10 riding, though you wont be too good on ground (except for damn fast swings)
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 9
Agility: 30
Hit points: 44
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 3
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 10
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 190
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Or you can place wpfs wherever you want.
Or get this if you want to be able to use heavy lance:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 10
Agility: 30
Hit points: 45
Converted: 10
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 3
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 10
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 8
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 173
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
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I have a cav and yes I did try couch yet it's not my fav way of killing as it leaves the other player almost no chance of survival.
Killing people as cav is easy very easy till your horse is alive.
well, imo couching only is pretty hard way 2 keep horse alive & make some kills. I totally disagree that couch leaves no chance of survival (not need 2 waste shield - jump 2 right using left swing perfectly kill rider & if this done in last second rider dont have time 2 move couching lance 2 left side) & as was said even 0 athl can dodge couch if stay alarmed...
Btw, forgive me my bad english :rolleyes:
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that's wrong.
you can damn easily chamber block a couched lance with a spear thrust or 2h sword thrust
I'm pretty sure this is a myth. Never ever seen it happen. If you can do it I'd really like to show me how on the duel server.
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I'm pretty sure this is a myth. Never ever seen it happen. If you can do it I'd really like to show me how on the duel server.
I've tried it on battle and failed so far, so I'm pretty sure it's a myth too... how can you chamber something without an attack animation?
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couching never has really bothered me. Its easily dodged and interrupting the rider isn't difficult either.
It only becomes a problem with multiple cavalry coming at you on a wide open field map. This situation is so rare, and mostly speaks to bad level design than couch lancing.
As to thrust blocking a couch lance: this is actually true! I've only seen it done randomly by a bot in single-player. But because of online latency/limits of human reflexes, we can pretty much toss it out as a viable defense against couch lancing.
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I say yes, leave it, as it currently is an extremely risky option.
Every time I have seen a rider couch against aware enemies, it ends up with one or more arrows/bolts in the rider's chest or the head of the horse due to the straight line the rider is forced to take. You can break off and zig and zag a bit if you thrust on an angle with the lance, but with couching you are making more of a direct path towards your target.
Far too often it forces the rider too close to the side-stepping groundpounder who is now close enough to stick you with his fist if he even needs to.
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I've had people survive my couches plenty of times. Couching is only really viable against people who are unaware or complete noobs.
Agree with madcat
Also, i play a cav. Im on a courser, and I got 7 riding, and Im the fastest cav Ive met this far, so I dont think a lot of cav are courser with 7 riding. :)
My last build I had 8 riding on a champion courser, you have nothing on me sis.
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Couching is risky, but is very helpful against unaware opponents (which it should be). Keep it. Imho, case should've never been opened.
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Imho, case should've never been opened.
This.
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why to nerf something that is not everpowered at all and adds to game variety, lol...
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Casimir is talking about that you want to MAKE couching NOT 1 hitting. And he is pointing at what superuberhumans are we going to kill? Irl noone can survive couched lance, usually even just thrust with lance, but Warband is balanced enough to not 1hit everyone with any type of hit from lance at full horse speed :)
IRL people survived couched lance using decent armor. And survived couched with insane in game speed bonus (head on). Really, it wasn't nuke.
I would like better couched but without one hit killing people in armor, i would like armor to give something against high damage attacks, it was meant to protect for hell sake.
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Couching can be chambered, ive done it several times. Also its easy to dodge and you might live even if it hits you.
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Couching can be chambered, ive done it several times. Also its easy to dodge and you might live even if it hits you.
It's easier to figure it out on a deathmatch on native.
couch potatos!
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Tbh i dont think couching is in any way overpowered... everytime i am riding i get killed if i start to try it.
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the thing about cav is, cav is REALLY high risk, you gotta ride in and all damage you deal or take is multiplied by your speed. One or two good hits kill most horses, also they cost a SHITLOAD
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the thing about cav is, cav is REALLY high risk, you gotta ride in and all damage you deal or take is multiplied by your speed. One or two good hits kill most horses, also they cost a SHITLOAD
+1
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Given couching is one of the riskier and easier to botch things to do as cavalry, it's fine.
What would be broken/too good is great lance being able to thrust. Thrusting >>> couching.
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Wait wat, the barmace ct was overpowered because of its lenght but this unblockable 1hitter is fine ? Sureeee :D lol
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Wait wat, the barmace ct was overpowered because of its lenght but this unblockable 1hitter is fine ? Sureeee :D lol
You can easily evade/kill the horseman doing it... couching is much much less useful then simply stabbing with a lance. Great lance thrusting, what the OP secretly wants, would be much more OP then couching is.
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You can easily evade/kill the horseman doing it... couching is much much less useful then simply stabbing with a lance. Great lance thrusting, what the OP secretly wants, would be much more OP then couching is.
You can easily evade a barmace overhead, no wait it's even easier because the barmace isn't fucking charging at horse speed. I demand a couched barmace for equity :D
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This thread was made because people keep on whining on 1 hit weapons and so they get nerfed.
Yes couching is risky but don't tell me it's hard to aim + the terrible hit boxes polearms have which can hit you even if your on the side. Now that cavalry can get riding to 7+ easily as been pointed by many people including my cav has 7 riding a normal rouncey for example becomes very fast, now take into consideration the horses with high maneuverability + 7 riding and you can turn as fast as you want.
Yes deaths from a couch is not something which happens a lot tough there is some cases were there's cav/ha with a couch only spear but like I said the point of the thread is people whine that there shouldn't be 1 hit weapons but couch is fine to 1 hit people? and no this is not a whine on the barmace/long iron mace that needed a nerf anyway too fast to crush through.
But I rest my case as the most annoying thing happening in this mod now ranged spam everywere it's getting to a point I'm barely logging now as 1hers is the viable build against anything now.
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This thread was made because people keep on whining on 1 hit weapons and so they get nerfed.
No they don't.
A multitude of weapons, 2h and polearm, onehit most targets. Nobody sees a problem with it.
now take into consideration the horses with high maneuverability + 7 riding and you can turn as fast as you want.
And then you don't couch anymore.
the point of the thread is people whine that there shouldn't be 1 hit weapons
No. They're complaining about weapons which can't be blocked, outspammed, outmaneuvered or anything else. You can kill them with throwing weapons, that's about it. Nobody complains about the maul... sure, you can't block it, but you have *options*. Vs a barmace you don't.
It's like comparing a couch only great lance vs a imaginary great lance which can thrust and crush through block when thrusting.
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No they don't.
A multitude of weapons, 2h and polearm, onehit most targets. Nobody sees a problem with it.
Thing is those weapons need PS like 7+ in other words invest in more strength than agility to be able to 1 hit effectively and that is not always going to happen against some people with IF and high armor but a couch + horse speed can 1 hit even at low level with low PS.
And then you don't couch anymore.
There's so many long lances (2 couch only) but let's say you only have one so what? it takes less time then a xbow to reload to reuse it and you would still need to go away since to couch you need to get some speed first.
Couch spears weren't so deadly before but great lance now has 35 pierce forgot how much it had before, 35 pierce + horse speed and not blockable unless with shield makes it very powerful.
No. They're complaining about weapons which can't be blocked, outspammed, outmaneuvered or anything else. You can kill them with throwing weapons, that's about it. Nobody complains about the maul... sure, you can't block it, but you have *options*. Vs a barmace you don't.
It's like comparing a couch only great lance vs a imaginary great lance which can thrust and crush through block when thrusting.
Like I said I'm not whining because bar mace/long iron mace are getting nerfed I don't even use them that was just a point because some would probably mention it.
Couch is not blockable without shield I don't know if this chamber is true since couch has no animation so which side would you attack to chamber an attack with no animation?
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Couch spears weren't so deadly before but great lance now has 35 pierce forgot how much it had before, 35 pierce + horse speed and not blockable unless with shield makes it very powerful.
before you had lance with 382 reach, you sure they werent deadlier from what we have now ?
and couch is the only answer to guys that keep holding lower block all the time.. well you can bump them to death but it might take whole round with the nerfed bumping damage
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People tend to make stuff up in order to have their primary class buffed and the others nerfed, i have no idea how chambering a couched lance works, if at all. The barmace reference was just to compare 2 identical situations, a nonblockable attack that you can only dodge, being treated so differently. I also agree that with the limitations they have, the only solution was to remove ct from that weapon, but the same applies to couched weapons, only short and slow weapons should have that unblockable 1 hitter. You can block with a shield (but still need to dodge the charge or you might get hit anyway), but most of the time it gets destroyed on 1 hit. Then you can't block it anymore.
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I don't know what your problem is guys. There is no problem whatsoever to dodge couch unless you are unaware of cav's coming, and in that case even thrust would kill you. As was said, when couching the horseman can't manouvere, or only a very little. If you have problem with jumping aside, you deserve to die. There is yet to be a situation where a jump in the path of the horse would not save me from couch. Yes you might get bumped for minor damage. Still it's a good trade-off for not being dead.
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There's so many long lances (2 couch only) but let's say you only have one so what? it takes less time then a xbow to reload to reuse it and you would still need to go away since to couch you need to get some speed first.
I've played a cavalryman on quite a number of chars, typically with a lance, and I've never, not a single time, used it couched. Why? It's basically useless. It works only on flat terrain vs perfectly unaware opponents. Since you don't know for sure they're perfectly unaware, since flat terrain is often hard to come by, and since it's easier to kill them with a lance thrust, which almost as deadly on a normally built char. Plus you can get people who try to evade with a thrust, while you can't maneuver AND couch the lance.
Your further comments indicate you don't understand lances and couching at all. But rather then trying to explain why you're clueless, let's focus on the important part:
Like I said I'm not whining because bar mace/long iron mace are getting nerfed I don't even use them that was just a point because some would probably mention it.
Yes, you are.
Have you noticed nobody really whines about the maul? Y/N? That's because a maul is counterable. Not trough blocking, but it is counterable. As is a couched lance. Now, the heirloomed barmaces are a wholly different thing.
For all I care, remove couching. Across all the cavalry characters I've built since I started playing crpg I've maybe used couching ten times. It's almost useless. When's the last time you saw someone using the great lance and not the heavy lance? Yeah. But sure, ask for it to be removed if it bothers you so. If you think it will however hurt cavalry, you're just stupid. On my alt I had 800 kills with a lance before I retired it, zero of which were scored by couching.
However, don't justify completely op weapons existing (aka barmace) by couched lances, it's not going to work, and is outrageously stupid.
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It wasn't me who brought back this thread I left it slide down because with all the throwing, xbows and archers on maps you die more on them it's just a cav doesn't really need a couch and that is MY opinion lances are enough and if they keep on blocking you can use a melee weapon or bump slash.
And no again I'm not whining on mauls I mentioned the mauls like ganon said because you could crush through with a fast weapon and guess what next patch you won't simple as that.
Now if the hitboxes on thrusts were not crap this thread wouldn't probably have been made but that's another story.
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This thread is meaningless.
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If you don't have eyes in the back it's your own fault if you die to a couched lance. In fact it is totally useless versus decent players.
Besides non couched lances are already manually blockable just to make it more balanced.
If it was up to me I would atleast make people get knocked down if they manually bocked a non couched lance, given the horse runs at high speed.
If something should be fixed when it comes to horses it is to make them stay horses even after their death instead of making them illusions...
I mean, how can you not get a scratch from a horse that was alive 1cm before it hit your face at 50km/h? This game is so damn unrealistic...
;)
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Couched damage was king of the battlefield in the middle ages. It deserves its place in CRPG.
It's very situational, high risk, and expensive to bring to bear.
Truly a useless poll.
cry some more
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It's funny how all the justifications for couched damage can be applied to the soon to be nerfed barmace. I said it's only obvious that the barmace is being nerfed, becuase with a particular build it gave an unfair advantage, but the same applies to some (not all) couched damage weapons.
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It's funny how all the justifications for couched damage can be applied to the soon to be nerfed barmace. I said it's only obvious that the barmace is being nerfed, becuase with a particular build it gave an unfair advantage, but the same applies to some (not all) couched damage weapons.
Last I checked the Bar mace has more then one direction of attack, and can dodge and weave in a melee. The Couched lance forces you to take a very predictable line of attack and have anyone with a moderate amount of skill (Even I have done this, and that is saying something) jump up to the side and slice the rider in two, avoiding the predictable couch.
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It's funny how all the justifications for couched damage can be applied to the soon to be nerfed barmace.
It's funny how it's untrue, but whatever. It's not like couching serves any purpose except killing afkers when you're still a low str guy so eh, might as well remove the thing ;)
The barmace is still hilariously broken.
In fact, let's talk about the lol OP and what he suggests:
"The point of the thread is that cav don't need couching as using a heavy lance is more then enough apart of pikes which giving great lance thrust would be a solution."
Great lance thrust would be incredibly, amusingly and hilariously overpowered. The great lance is basically never used because it can couch instead of thrust. It would make cavalry absurdly overpowered if it could thrust.
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Guys this thread is about couching and it is really old...
There is another thread about barmace!
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I said yes because couching is an essential part of the game and shouldn't be taken away. Taking away couch would be like taking away CT from all the maces. So if CT completely disappears then sure be done with couch as well idc I don't cough except for afk people, thrusting is a lot easier and usually is a 1 hit itself.
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Apart that great lance has 55 speed?
But mine was just a question not a solution or what your inventing read the title I wanted to know the reasons and none was justified why cav need an unblockable 1 hit attack /end thread
Please stop reviving the thread as people think I am reviving it and keep on thinking I am suggesting but mine was a curiosity what people think and got the answers.
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Couched damage was king of the battlefield in the middle ages. It deserves its place in CRPG.
It's very situational, high risk, and expensive to bring to bear.
Truly a useless poll.
cry some more
It's not situational and risky, you can perform this move against any 1h/2h user with little chance to stop it. Yes, you have to learn to execute it, but after you have some practice with it, it's ezmode.
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It's not situational and risky, you can perform this move against any 1h/2h user with little chance to stop it. Yes, you have to learn to execute it, but after you have some practice with it, it's ezmode.
I disagree. A player entering couch mode is quite exposed to arrows, despite the new "shield cover" animation. Even if a player throws a rock and hits the shield doing 0 damage, the animation will knock him out of couch-mode.
Its a move best performed against an unaware opponent, because they will have no time to use the variety of tactics to counter the couch.
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Apart that great lance has 55 speed?
But mine was just a question not a solution or what your inventing read the title I wanted to know the reasons and none was justified why cav need an unblockable 1 hit attack /end thread
Please stop reviving the thread as people think I am reviving it and keep on thinking I am suggesting but mine was a curiosity what people think and got the answers.
I love how people ignore you. :(
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But mine was just a question not a solution or what your inventing read the title I wanted to know the reasons and none was justified why cav need an unblockable 1 hit attack /end thread
Because it was already in the game and there is no reason to remove it.
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I disagree. A player entering couch mode is quite exposed to arrows, despite the new "shield cover" animation. Even if a player throws a rock and hits the shield doing 0 damage, the animation will knock him out of couch-mode.
Its a move best performed against an unaware opponent, because they will have no time to use the variety of tactics to counter the couch.
Aren't those ranged weapons ? Variety of tactics ? Like equipping invisible pike/light lance, longest 2h weapons can stab the horse and kill it in one shot (? with old animations they had the chance, i dunno if it's possible with new) - if they fail to kill they are dead.
I know that ranged can counter couch, thats why i said 1h/2h are dead/shieldless.
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I rarely couch on my cavalry character, it is a high risk move usually getting me killed if I use it frequently.
Only time I couch is on a flat area and when some noob is not paying attention.
And yes, if you don't know how to avoid a couch, than you suck.
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Aren't those ranged weapons ? Variety of tactics ? Like equipping invisible pike/light lance, longest 2h weapons can stab the horse and kill it in one shot (? with old animations they had the chance, i dunno if it's possible with new) - if they fail to kill they are dead.
I know that ranged can counter couch, thats why i said 1h/2h are dead/shieldless.
I see where you are coming from.
I will concede that 1h weapons are at a distinct disadvantage, but 2h weapons in crpg have plenty of length. Often they can safely attack the cavalry's left side. On top of that, using the map's terrain, a clever infantry will still have plenty available options.
On flat plains, with no cover, cavalry will have an advantage, but it is the responsibily of server owners to evaluate maps for rotation and ensure they are balanced.
There are still plenty of ways to counter a couching cavalry. I still don't feel that couch is easy-mode or in any way overpowered against a knowledgable opponent
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I concur; when I'm not playing cav I play hoplite, and I'm always glad when a cavalryman charges me with his lance couched because the attack patterns are more predictable and easier to counter.
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Classic jump to a side can be effective enough to dodge couching lance. And when youre good enough you can even hit the rider when you are midair most of the time you kill the rider, even with 1h weapon.
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I had this happen to me the other day, was about to couch a fellow in the back while he was in melee, and he spin-jumps and one-shots me with a one hander, leaving me laughing at myself while my riderless horse plunges onward...
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You should see the satisfaction in face of that guy :D
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I see where you are coming from.
I will concede that 1h weapons are at a distinct disadvantage, but 2h weapons in crpg have plenty of length. Often they can safely attack the cavalry's left side. On top of that, using the map's terrain, a clever infantry will still have plenty available options.
On flat plains, with no cover, cavalry will have an advantage, but it is the responsibily of server owners to evaluate maps for rotation and ensure they are balanced.
There are still plenty of ways to counter a couching cavalry. I still don't feel that couch is easy-mode or in any way overpowered against a knowledgable opponent
Yup, best option is to not going alone in the open against cav and keep your eye on the terrain. There are plenty of option to avoid this threat, but not on every map, and sometimes you are forced to follow your noobmates into ultimate doom.