cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fluffy_Muffin on February 16, 2011, 09:39:37 am
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I was thinking about this recently and maybe its a good idea to add a "bonus against arrows" to some armor, starting from the plate armor. (maybe even the heraldic transitional armor) It wouldnt be anything dramatic, perhaps where it took 4-5 arrows to kill now takes 7-8 (random numbers). A 20-30% decrease in arrow dmg (perhaps make the same bonus apply for lower tier trowing weapons also; bolts and jarids/javs excluded).
Wearing plate in M&B makes you realy slow and a target for archers (especialy if you have no shield). I dont think the benefit of plate is high enough to use it, i prefer just going lighter and dodging because in plate i just get kited and picked off by archers or (because im so slow) killed by all the flying stuff when on the frontlines.
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I already need over 7 arrows to kill plate.When he keeps moving like crazy i must easily spend around 30 arrows...
Not to mention that sometimes the arrows bounce off.
Times of jesus plate knights are over.Please accept it ;)
Also think a bit tactical.. it's not only about the items.
When you don't have a shield-->dont make urself an easy target to ranged weapons.
I've seen plate knights in the defender team leaving the cover of their city to "CHARGE" in, thinking plate allows them to jesus kamikaze kill all.
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Well, tbh something needs to be done to slightly lower the ammount of flinyg stuff in this game cause its getting out of control.
If i wanted to play a shooter i would just go play Cod or CS.
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Fluffy did you really not play this back pre-patch when archers were actually good?
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The amount of arrows already got reduced.
Throwing guys don't have that many munition too.
So i guess that you have to adjust your playstyle.
If i wanted to play a shooter i would just go play Cod or CS.
Or a boxing game for melee only ;)
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Fluffy did you really not play this back pre-patch when archers were actually good?
No, i have never played an archer, i just dont see the fun in it, i played a trower hybrid for 1 gen and now im a pure 2h
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No, i have never played an archer, i just dont see the fun in it, i played a trower hybrid for 1 gen and now im a pure 2h
Yeah...kindly shut up.
Given I'm just trying archery to see why all of them were complaining, but it's true. Throwers and crossbowmen out perform an archer in almost any given map in any given situation.
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Archers do cut damage now. That made plate better against archers. So I think the topic is irrelevant.
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Archers do cut damage now. That made plate better against archers. So I think the topic is irrelevant.
QFT.
I wear plate sometimes, makes you pretty much immune to arrows as HIS SUGGESTION IS ALREADY IN PLACE.
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Its not about plate or damage from ranged weapons, its about the number of this type of players and projectiles flying around. As a 2h or polearm without shield, its impossible to enjoy this game as it is now. I dont mind getting killed by ranged :twisted: , but interruptions in melee fight or not being able to get out of the cover is the main problem.
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None of my alts are archers nor do any of them wear shields or armor. Neither does my girlfriend's character when she plays. We enjoy the game nonetheless, so 'impossible to enjoy' is a bit inaccurate. I know neither of us are very good at the game but there are several people on the NA alarm list who don't wear shields who manage to top the scoreboard just fine, if you care about examples that aren't bad players.
In my opinion it's far more frustrating being crab clawed by shielders than having an archer shoot at me during melee, at least with the archer I can attempt to put his teammate between us. But crab claws... no idea how HarmlessPeasant gets out of those. What a bandit.
[edit] Oh yeah, to stay relevant to the topic as people have mentioned plate is already very arrow resistant. Me and 3 other archers were shooting at this plated guy fjording a river once, 8 arrows later he finally managed to walk behind a shielder so we couldn't shoot him/her anymore. I think he/she died to a jarid a few seconds after landing though.
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I think archers are overpowered not because of the damage they do but because of their sheer numbers which is ridiculous.
Sure killing plate can take 7-8 arrows but when you have 40 god damn archers in the server that's a plate guy getting showered and trying to dodge the rain pretty much.
You guys have to understand that topping the scoreboard =/= balance, right now I think the damage is fine FOR THE MOST PART (The full PD archers can one hit any of my chars be it light or heavy armor) but the fact that they're just SO MUCH shooting at you it's really difficult.
I don't want to be a shielder for a reason, but with so much archers it's like I'm practically being forced to become a shielder, I play the game to ... you know play the game, not stay in cover for a full round HOPEING the archers are dead before the end so I can get out and maybe kill 1 guy before the end of the round.
I'm ok with an arrow doing 1/4 of my health for the most part, what I'm not ok with is when I CONSTANTLY have 20 arrows aimed right at me, considering 1-4 arrows can kill me depending on the armor I use I'd say that's overkill.
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I play two characters that run around without a shield. I think I picked up one level 0 shield whilst on the battlefield once. I don't have any issue with live arrows or bolts flying through the air as I tend to use terrain, cover, and patience quite heavily. Thrown weapons are another story but that's only because this class of projectile is imbalanced. Even in my Banded armour, it takes 4-5 arrows to bring me down.
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Archery/crossbows are fairly well balanced nowdays. Throwing..... a whole different story.
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I think archers are overpowered not because of the damage they do but because of their sheer numbers which is ridiculous.
There is not that many archers. On any given server the average would be about 10 archers to 60 players, 1/6th of the entire population. The most you would get -if- the server is full would be 30 archers.
I don't want to be a shielder for a reason, but with so much archers it's like I'm practically being forced to become a shielder, I play the game to ... you know play the game, not stay in cover for a full round HOPEING the archers are dead before the end so I can get out and maybe kill 1 guy before the end of the round.
There is no practically being forced. If you want to run around without a shield with just a two handed weapon then go right ahead. You'll just have to be complacent with it now that you'll be open to all projectiles (Thrown, arrows, bolts) and cavalry who know how to couch.
The end result is: Your play style has a counter to it and you do not like it. When it takes more than 6 arrows to kill a target, something should be done to either increase how effective arrows are, or decrease how effective armor is.
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I think archers are overpowered not because of the damage they do but because of their sheer numbers which is ridiculous.
Sure killing plate can take 7-8 arrows but when you have 40 god damn archers in the server that's a plate guy getting showered and trying to dodge the rain pretty much.
You guys have to understand that topping the scoreboard =/= balance, right now I think the damage is fine FOR THE MOST PART (The full PD archers can one hit any of my chars be it light or heavy armor) but the fact that they're just SO MUCH shooting at you it's really difficult.
I don't want to be a shielder for a reason, but with so much archers it's like I'm practically being forced to become a shielder, I play the game to ... you know play the game, not stay in cover for a full round HOPEING the archers are dead before the end so I can get out and maybe kill 1 guy before the end of the round.
I'm ok with an arrow doing 1/4 of my health for the most part, what I'm not ok with is when I CONSTANTLY have 20 arrows aimed right at me, considering 1-4 arrows can kill me depending on the armor I use I'd say that's overkill.
Quoted for mucho truth.
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IF that's true, then the inverse is also true. IF 40 papers cover 40 rocks than get yourself a goddamn pair of scissors. You dont want to play with scissors? that's too bad, prepare to eat poached arrows for breakfast.
Even if the other team is even halfway composed of archers (which I have literally NEVER seen) it's your responsibility to adapt to their metagame changes. It's not like you dont have any options here.
1. Play with more teamwork
A. Roll a shielder/shield-thrower
B. Roll an archer or xbowman for anti-archer
C. Take the pain and get better without a shield
D. Play somthing else
As an archer I dont make threads about shield walls running over me when there's nothing I can do about it. because they are SUPPOSED to crush me underfoot. and as an archer i'm SUPPOSED to shoot you in the freakin head to keep you away from my shielders and ranged.
Everything Is Working As Intended.
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Hell i've seen plenty of 2handers and polearmers take a shield with them just to the point before they engage with the enemy.
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Archers were already nerfed. I can definitely see a reduction when playing. I have played a 2H for 5 gens, never used a shield, and I have no problem with the way archery is now. Of course I don't like a bunch of arrows flying at me all the time. But you compensate by not being in the front of the line, using cover, etc. The problem I see is that all those arrows you see, half are bolts from crossbows that require ZERO skill investment to use effectively. I know because I've used crossbows plenty of times. I have zero skillpoints in it but can still accurately snipe people.
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I think archers are overpowered not because of the damage they do but because of their sheer numbers which is ridiculous.
Sure killing plate can take 7-8 arrows but when you have 40 god damn archers in the server that's a plate guy getting showered and trying to dodge the rain pretty much.
You guys have to understand that topping the scoreboard =/= balance, right now I think the damage is fine FOR THE MOST PART (The full PD archers can one hit any of my chars be it light or heavy armor) but the fact that they're just SO MUCH shooting at you it's really difficult.
I don't want to be a shielder for a reason, but with so much archers it's like I'm practically being forced to become a shielder, I play the game to ... you know play the game, not stay in cover for a full round HOPEING the archers are dead before the end so I can get out and maybe kill 1 guy before the end of the round.
I'm ok with an arrow doing 1/4 of my health for the most part, what I'm not ok with is when I CONSTANTLY have 20 arrows aimed right at me, considering 1-4 arrows can kill me depending on the armor I use I'd say that's overkill.
What I read from this is that if a guy wears plate he should be able to survie going against 40 archers? 40 archers? IMO a guy with black armor going against 40 archers should be able to go even half the way if just 1/4 of them get a hit. That's still 10 arrows!
On another note 40 archers on a server is highly unrealistic. Even more unrealistic is that they would all target you.
The way I see it it wouldn't be realistic that a plate-guy could take on that many archer IRL or would it balance the game.
Hell i've seen plenty of 2handers and polearmers take a shield with them just to the point before they engage with the enemy.
My 2h is a main and what do I do? I have two options as I see it. Go with my sword and nothing else having three free slots that could be used on siegeshields, ladders etc. OR go with a plain board shield. That would still leave me with two free slots for siegeshields and ladders. The plain board shield has a requirement of 2. That means I have to use 2 sp on it, which is nothing if you ask me. If that not ok with you go and grab a hide covered/wodden shield. No requirement at all
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the problem with archers aint archers, its all the stuff that fly around everywhere, allie stuffs too
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Hmm, everything Ive read from the proponents of this have been making patently false statements to support themselves.
To the OP, if you haven't played the class, STFU until you have. :idea:
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What I read from this is that if a guy wears plate he should be able to survie going against 40 archers? 40 archers? IMO a guy with black armor going against 40 archers should be able to go even half the way if just 1/4 of them get a hit. That's still 10 arrows!
On another note 40 archers on a server is highly unrealistic. Even more unrealistic is that they would all target you.
The way I see it it wouldn't be realistic that a plate-guy could take on that many archer IRL or would it balance the game.
My 2h is a main and what do I do? I have two options as I see it. Go with my sword and nothing else having three free slots that could be used on siegeshields, ladders etc. OR go with a plain board shield. That would still leave me with two free slots for siegeshields and ladders. The plain board shield has a requirement of 2. That means I have to use 2 sp on it, which is nothing if you ask me. If that not ok with you go and grab a hide covered/wodden shield. No requirement at all
Nay, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone in armor should be able to go toe to toe against 40 archers, what I'm saying is mostly the fact that the archer's population is out of control and the battlefield right now is an horizontal hailstorm of axes and arrows and various other projectiles, it's almost like dodging rain.
If we were going according to realism, I'm almost positive that in real life archers were using volleys and not aiming and sniping peoples, but this game is not about realism, honestly balancing archery is going to be tough.
To balance archery right now, we'd have to find a way to make the damage enough to kill peoples but not enough to piss everyone off because arrows almost mean sure death, at the same time we'd have to find a way to make archery interesting for peoples to go archers but uninteresting enough to not have 80% of the playerbase going archers and consequently turning the battlefield into an horizontal rain.
Nowadays to make sure I get to the battle "relatively" unscathed, I HAVE to get minimum 2 shield skill on any of my melee dudes, I got a couple of melee guys with no shield skill and honestly getting to the battle while trying to dodge an horizontal rain is quite a pain.
Also, about your shield argument, 2 skill points is still 2 skill points that could be useful in something else, shields also slows you down by alot, so basically even if you buy a shield to protect yourself against archers in the end you gimp yourself in other ways, by slowing yourself down and using skill points that could be used somewhere else.
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Alright, my qualifications for saying this are such. I've played an archer melee hybrid since WAY before the upkeep patch and I haven't seen less archers, "pure" or otherwise EVER before. I am 100% willing to agree that before the patch archery needed some nerfing but I think now its getting out of hand. Even with all the nerfs I am still playing my archer hybrid mainly because I enjoy doing it. Though now I use a Khergit bow. The simple reason for this is as such, nothing else is accurate enough to score the headshots archery requires these days, and there is no point going heavier, the damage doesn't scale very well. Just yesterday I was on siege when I observed that I required 7 long range shots (PD 5 Bodkin) into a player in mail to kill him. I think that is a bit excessive. I would argue that at this point in time most of the ranged fire observed in the game consists of bolts and thrown weapons. If anything I would suggest a damage boost or to reduce the armor mitigation on arrows. The simple reasoning for this is that I cannot nor can most other archers inflict a reasonable amount of damage, either to inconvenience or kill any other player. The exception being that I score a headshot and even then they can't be wearing any decent helmet. I'm not sure who it was but I scored 2 headshots on a "tincan" from fairly close range and he didn't die, although warranted he had a great helm, and likely a bunch of IF. My point is that if anything archery at this point needs to either become more accurate, OR to become more lethal again. I'm sick of scoring 95% of my kills with a sword.
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Yup, shot Goretooth in the head point blank with a warbow and Bodkin with 10PD and laughed my ass off due to his response of ignoring it and mowing down two teammates.
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Simply put, archers DO NOT need to get nerfed anymore. Even if you were to go up against 40 archers (EXTREMELY unreasonable), you kinda have teammates for a reason. Call them over or fall back. If you complain about getting hit before you even reach the archers or when retreating, grab a 0 requirement shield. Their costs are pretty much negligible from upkeep as well.
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If we were going according to realism, I'm almost positive that in real life archers were using volleys and not aiming and sniping peoples, but this game is not about realism, honestly balancing archery is going to be tough.
1) Depends on whether or not you were Welsh and had a load of English bastards to aim at. :mrgreen:
2) If people want some semi realism to archery then Bodkins should be buffed against plate and chain and broadheads nerfed against same. That way archers would have to select different ammo according to situation.
Really tho everything re archers is ok apart from the speed of firing and arrow flight. If you nerf it to much though everyone that had a bow would switch to crossbow and then the bitching would really start coz those things can dish the shit. :D
As for numbers playing......where? I see more shields and 2h than I do ranged.
Wearing plate in M&B makes you realy slow and a target for archers (especialy if you have no shield). I dont think the benefit of plate is high enough to use it, i prefer just going lighter and dodging because in plate i just get kited and picked off by archers or (because im so slow) killed by all the flying stuff when on the frontlines.
Erm.. even tanks require support on the front line. If you go off being the lone ranger (like everyone else) expect to be ganked.
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If melee ppl need teamwork to fight against archers, i don't see why archers wouldn't need teamwork to kill melee.
If you can't kill melee armored ppl then call your archer teammate to help you.
Some says they need 5 arrows to kill armored ppl, but in the same way a 1hander will need 5 hit to kill the same guy.
I guess that's what we call balance?
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Archers seriously need a wp boost, at least early on. Im a pretty good archer in native, but here, even with 138 wp on a longbow I dont seem able to plant an headshot on a target standing less than 10 m away from me, let alone hit moving targets at poit-blanc range. Just today, I was trying to shoot a 2 h guy constantly chasing me at close range and after over 6 failed attempts to even hit him I get slashed from behind by someone else. Talk about annoying, it's like the devs are trying to make a melee only game.
It's like Mizzles said, something is very wrong when archers end up doing most of their kills with melee weapons.
I'd suggest that archers get a large increase in wp early on. I mean, it's anything but realistic when my 40 year old char has 3 times less accuracy then I did in real life with a longbow at the age 20 with only a few days of practice.
As for damage, I dont care much about the tin cans since historicaly they were supposed to resist arrows. Though anyone not wearing plate armor shouldn't be able to resist more than 2 bodkin arrows fired from a longbow.
Altough even worse then that are the horses, they are way too resistant to arrows. It's not an uncommon sight to see unarmoured horses ridding around with several arrows stuck in their bodies. Just a couple of days ago I shot one in the skull with my longbow and he just kept on going.
I dont know the plans for a future patch, but archery needs a boost and fast.
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Archery does perhaps need a buff, but only in arrow flight speed, theyr dodgeable like throwing axes theese days.
But it does most certainly not need another nerf, im pretty sure in the history of online gaming there has never been a class of anything in any game which has been so utterly nerfed as archery was in the great patch.
Most people whine about throwers theese days..(allthough as archers have compensated for there gimpness I have started to see more "friendly archer" comments.)Throwers also got nerfed in the patch, they were better before, you just notice it alot more now cause you simply ignore archers. And im positive a shitload of people has rolled throwers because they think its sooOO overpowered, thus creating masses of throwers, which makes it rain throwing weapons, which in turn again kills you= OPOPOPnerfitalltohell
edit: lol@friendly archer transelation=P
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Archery doesn't need a nerf or buff.
In addition, anytime 2 players of any class go against 1 player of another class, that single player should DIE all else being even. You melee don't see archers complain that when a single Tincan reaches melee range of 3-5 archers, the ARCHERS are all dead :rolleyes:
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There is a little bit of exageration in this thread to. When I'm in a server of 100 I usually only see 4-5 archer per team MAX. The rest are xbows or throwers if they are ranged. So go complain about those, archery has been nerfed enough as it is.
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Were it possible, I'd think it was neat to have armor which had reduced armor value in exchange for a "superior vs ranged" feature. So it would be a sacrifice in exchange for gain. However, don't think such a thing is actually doable.
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Were it possible, I'd think it was neat to have armor which had reduced armor value in exchange for a "superior vs ranged" feature. So it would be a sacrifice in exchange for gain. However, don't think such a thing is actually doable.
I'd rather have two armor values, one for soak, second for reduction. Would do the job without such arbitrary bonus.
Still impossible, but neat idea.
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Recently while wearing about 50 armour, I got shot by a warbow from point blank range it took about 1% off. Archery now is a joke.
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Recently while wearing about 50 armour, I got shot by a warbow from point blank range it took about 1% off. Archery now is a joke.
Despite this, people complain regularly on the forums to nerf us :D :lol:
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Recently while wearing about 50 armour, I got shot by a warbow from point blank range it took about 1% off. Archery now is a joke.
Yea and recently while wearing the same ammount of armor a single arrow took 60% of my hp, also from point blank. Its no joke.
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Hmm. I binned my archer and switched to xbow because I got hacked off with how little it did on the battlefield compared to everyone else. All I see here is a load of 2handers emorageing because they can't mow archers down with as easily as everyone else and they take damage because they are to stupid to ally themselves with a shielder for protection. :rolleyes:
To reciprocate I want 2 handers to be nerfed. I want their weapons to move at realistics speeds according to their mass and not like the blurs they are at the moment. Plus I want them to have a minimum effective range because i think it goes beyond credibility when you get killed by the haft of a polearm and not the point. For a 2hander to be able to kill someone at point blank is just plain stupid. :twisted:
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Yea and recently while wearing the same ammount of armor a single arrow took 60% of my hp, also from point blank. Its no joke.
Yeah, and recently while wearing the same amount of armor, a single arrow took 100% of my health, from medium range, archery is srs bsns.
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Yeah, and recently while wearing the same amount of armor, a single arrow took 100% of my health, from medium range, archery is srs bsns.
It really depends on the arrcher build to be fair.
Again, some archers take the minimum PD, while others (Like me) squeeze it for every drop. It also matters quite a lot on the range. I can drop any mid to low level horse with a few hits (Or one well placed headhsot) at close, but have to hit the bugger a dozen times from long range.
Just like some twit can kill you with five swipes form a sword, and others are a STR build to the max and one shot you with the same weapon.
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It might give more of an incentive to wear plate, but you still lose a shit ton of money when you wear it, so it won't make much of a difference anyway since only the 100kers will wear it for it to have much of an effect.
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This is a good idea if it's possible