cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Zekerage on October 28, 2011, 03:19:48 pm
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Now, I have limited use of a Katana, and recently got a MW one, so I respecced into it. I'd say I've played roughly 3/4 gens with the katana, specifically, and one thing that I've noticed is that the Katana's Stab is more of a Hinderance than it is helpful. It's a Joke. With a MW Katana, the stab has the same damage as a base Khbyer knife... really? Now, you may be thinking that I'm lobbying for a buff in the Katana's Stab department... You're wrong.. I want the Katana's stab removed Entirely. With it being as worthless as it is now, and it bouncing/glancing/whiffing more often than not, what's the point (eh, eh, eh?!?!?)? What say you?
-Zylo
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Why are you even picking one up.
Also, get in TS more.
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You want it as colourless as the nodachi is now then, it is allready nerfed to shit.
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You want it as colourless as the nodachi is now then, it is allready nerfed to shit.
I wouldn't say that 40c on a 102 speed tag (Or 103?) is colourless.
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102.
There are a few 1 handers that out range it, and some that out speed it. So ya, nerfed.
Nodachi - thrustless colourless ginsu knife used by STR nimrods in heavy armor.
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What's up with the random capitalization?
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102.
There are a few 1 handers that out range it, and some that out speed it. So ya, nerfed.
Which 1handers out range it? Take the 2h bonus reach into account, too. Some 1h out speed it, but then they're much shorter and deal MUCH less damage...
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Which 1handers out range it? Take the 2h bonus reach into account, too. Some 1h out speed it, but then they're much shorter and deal MUCH less damage...
long espada
nordic champ
knightly arming
elite scimitar - now with more elite ghost range!
arabian cavalry
long arming
arabian guard
shashka
scimitar
arabian arming
arabian straight
practise sword (lol)
same length
side sword
nordic war
arming
simple
Take 1h ghost reach into account as well, better yet, consider for the most part a katana has to get in the opponents range to score a hit. Removing it's weak thrust would appeal to nimrods who get confused having 4 attacks, but punish those who like a thrust, even a weak one.
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1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
So derp, no. You're wrong.
1h has no ghost reach.
Katana also has a lot more damage.
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derp yerself, that +19 always gets me.
Where's the bonus for stab reach, curious.
And as far as pierce (stab) damage, the katana is weaker then most of those.
And was it not common knowledge that curved blades seem to have a ghost reach? Did I miss something?
You also have neglected the benefits of a shield.
When all is said and done, the longsword is likely a better weapon all around then the katana, perhaps you would like to compare it's damage to 1handers? How about comparing katana's damage to other 2 handers?
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You need to be better if the most obvious and worst of the 1h slashes gets you every time, honestly. The reach advantage adds up to +45 against 1h's +19.
Some curved weapons hit a bit before the model (few cm for the elite scimi, double that or so for normal scimi IIRC), but you were talking about "1h", and that implies all 1h has ghost range.
I haven't neglected benefits of a shield because shields never entered the argument. Of course 1h+shield is about equal with a 2h weapon, all things considered.
The super fast weapons have less damage than the slow 2 handers, surprise surprise.
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Herpan' Derpan', 1h no ghostreachin',
Xant said so.
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curve blades have "ghost reach" because their hitbox is a straight line, so it appears that the scim hits before the model shows it does.
not really ghost reach, but sort of .
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Yes, I am aware of the curved blade and the collision thingy.
You have not mentioned anything that merits the removal of thrust from katana, which is substantially worse then the popular 1handers for thrust damage.
Fight some good 1hander and:
a. you will get the so called worse attack in the face.
b. not going to be maintaining range like some spammy polearmer.
wtf is that bullshit 45 reach advantage? oh fuck off... just fuck right off if you are going to be so goddam obtuse and retarded.
You are Xant, and an idiot.
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Also about the stab length bonus. The 2h has the longest stab length bonus , then comes 1h and then polearms. The 2h stab bonus is ca. +80 reach. Yes, 80 reach. This is why the greatswords and some other 2handers outreach a heavy lance. I don't remember the length bonus of 1h. Think it was +20-ish.
And yeah. A 100 length 2h and a 100 length 1h. The 2h will outreach it on left-to-right, overhead and stab. 1h wins on right-to-left. Yeah, the katana really IS shorter than those swords. Good thing it is faster than them and have the HUGE 2h animation damage sweetspot :rolleyes:
And Thucydides is right. The only ghost reach on curved blades are because the hitbox is straight. Not any length ghost reach. At least none confirmed.
Now, back to the original discussion.
Why to keep the katana thrust? It gives you a 4th way to feint with. Really helps a lot of people.
Why to not keep it? Well, for the most part it is useless. Especially now that the katana got magical bonus damage and does 37 cut damage. That's 1 less than a german greatsword.
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Yes, I am aware of the curved blade and the collision thingy.
You have not mentioned anything that merits the removal of thrust from katana, which is substantially worse then the popular 1handers for thrust damage.
Fight some good 1hander and:
a. you will get the so called worse attack in the face.
b. not going to be maintaining range like some spammy polearmer.
wtf is that bullshit 45 reach advantage? oh fuck off... just fuck right off if you are going to be so goddam obtuse and retarded.
You are Xant, and an idiot.
Wat? When have I been in favor of removing the thrust from katana? Reading comprehension ftw.
I've fought plenty of good 1handers, I'm a 1hander myself now.
It's not bullshit dear, it's the facts. +45 is the total amount of reach gained (not in a single attack direction ...) from 2h animations (not including thrust) and +19 is the total gained from 1h animations (not including thrust).
Hey, it's not my fault you don't know how to play bro, keep your trousers on.
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The 2h stab bonus is ca. +80 reach. Yes, 80 reach. This is why the greatswords and some other 2handers outreach a heavy lance.
Heavy lance gets +50 reach, so it's still ~30 longer
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Zylo wants it removed because he keeps glancing when he's facehugging people and feinting. You know it's true!
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IT's TRUEEEEEE... It's really truuuuuuue :'(.... But even when I've got the distance with which to preform the stab, it STILL glances. Very frustrating. I know the Katana's no War spear, but like I said, I find the Poke of the katana to be Useless. You can point blank stab with a Longsword just fine and dandy.
Also, whoever noticed my random capitalization... Sorry.. it's a habit that I have no idea where I picked up from wherein I'm using the capitals to emphasize certain words.
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hmm.
It's too soon to ask for a katana buff. Just spent 6 months lobbying and countless reasons trying to rebuff it from 35 cut. (It was nerfed first because some angry person went on an uncontrolled buff katana rage on the forums. I came in too late to do damage control..)
I'm also against removing the thrust. It just goes against what a katana stands for. Removing thrust would imply it's a clumsy weapon.. Now it simply a weapon that punishes you hard if you do a thrust mistake. That's OK. Use the thrust against heads and light armour only.
Of course I would like that some time in the future the thrust would be buffed a little so it wouldn't bounce so much. But I won't ask for it..
not yet :-D
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The reason why katana is so goddamn shit is because its designed for combat against lightly armored/medium armor. In the STR heavy meta game of NA, Katana is not practical.
When i duel with medium armor, Katana is a faster and shorter longsword.
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Wat? When have I been in favor of removing the thrust from katana? Reading comprehension ftw.
I've fought plenty of good 1handers, I'm a 1hander myself now.
It's not bullshit dear, it's the facts. +45 is the total amount of reach gained (not in a single attack direction ...) from 2h animations (not including thrust) and +19 is the total gained from 1h animations (not including thrust).
Hey, it's not my fault you don't know how to play bro, keep your trousers on.
Totalling the reach advantages and comparing the totals, by that logic you imply I would indeed enjoy a 26 advantage, that is fail logic. Ye should run for public office, as gerrymandering would be right up your alley and there is no shortage of sheeples to prop you and your phallacies up, nor a dearth of learned fools beguiled by your mathematical genius.
I never play with trousers on thus I know how to play.
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Heavy lance gets +50 reach, so it's still ~30 longer
Not really. Only a fool would go for the rider and the horses head is about 55-60 reach methinks. Maybe more. And only the strongest (or very slow moving) horse manages to survive a greatsword stab.
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voted no wilö explain later.
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Totalling the reach advantages and comparing the totals, by that logic you imply I would indeed enjoy a 26 advantage, that is fail logic. Ye should run for public office, as gerrymandering would be right up your alley and there is no shortage of sheeples to prop you and your phallacies up, nor a dearth of learned fools beguiled by your mathematical genius.
I never play with trousers on thus I know how to play.
Katana has a reach advantage, no matter how you look at it, sorry. Indeed, it appears my mathematical genius is a bit too much for you to handle, so let me attempt to simplify it so you can understand. Katana is in practice a lot longer than any 1h when attacking with an overhead attack, left-to-right or a thrust. It only has shorter reach than some 1h when comparing it with 1h's right-to-left. Katana's thrust is longer than any 1h's any attack.
I hope this was simple enough.
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We are all just sidestepping the real issue. Katanas break immersion and should be removed from the game.
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Uh, two handed stab is still +80 reach? I swear they changed the stab to the current one SPECIFICALLY because the old one had way too much reach.
Also ghostreach DOES exist, and it's not only on weird weapons with weird curvy models like the scimitar and elite scimitar.
I've been hit by ghostreach more than I can count: Weapon's 105 reach, I'm at about 130 reach from the guy, clearly out of reach, weapon is not anywhere close to physically touching me, LOL I STILL GET HIT ANYWAY.
Also, to be on-topic, ban Katana, that is all, or buff my longsword to not be a worse Katana.
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Are you sure you didn't just get hit because you were bored?
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weird curvy models
Yes, I agree, angles that are not straight baffle my mind, how did these weird curvy angles appear?! Anyway, we should react with proper measure.
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Katana has a reach advantage, no matter how you look at it, sorry. Indeed, it appears my mathematical genius is a bit too much for you to handle, so let me attempt to simplify it so you can understand. Katana is in practice a lot longer than any 1h when attacking with an overhead attack, left-to-right or a thrust. It only has shorter reach than some 1h when comparing it with 1h's right-to-left. Katana's thrust is longer than any 1h's any attack.
I hope this was simple enough.
Some? You asked, I listed many 1 handers which out reach it. Then there was the bit about total + to reach, which in theory, means a Katana should outreach a spear or something
Still not seeing what the magic + to thrust is, perhaps I missed it in all that graphical analysis and witty reparté.
When you say no matter how you look at it, that actually looks mentally deficient when you later say 'except' and mention the inconvienient bit that doesn't play along with your statement. You imply the katana user should logically get the first wack in due to range, except in the unfortunate circumstances when the opposing one hander is so foolish as to use the shitty one attack with the greater reach: I know, you are going to tell me it's only a one in four chance of that happening - seems simple enough.
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Some? You asked, I listed many 1 handers which out reach it. Then there was the bit about total + to reach, which in theory, means a Katana should outreach a spear or something
Still not seeing what the magic + to thrust is, perhaps I missed it in all that graphical analysis and witty reparté.
When you say no matter how you look at it, that actually looks mentally deficient when you later say 'except' and mention the inconvienient bit that doesn't play along with your statement. You imply the katana user should logically get the first wack in due to range, except in the unfortunate circumstances when the opposing one hander is so foolish as to use the shitty one attack with the greater reach: I know, you are going to tell me it's only a one in four chance of that happening - seems simple enough.
None of those 1h outreach Katana. As to outreaching a spear... I think you should stay away from theorizing.
The + to thrust is +80.
Sigh, no -- katana has the longest reach attack, the thrust. It doesn't matter what the 1hander does.
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Well that + 45 has got to be good for something.
Really.. +80?
What's the 1 hander thrust then?
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+62
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Not really. Only a fool would go for the rider and the horses head is about 55-60 reach methinks. Maybe more. And only the strongest (or very slow moving) horse manages to survive a greatsword stab.
You never mentioned the horse, you said that it was longer than the heavy lance, and I just stated that it isn't. Heavy lance + shield is ~ 30 longer than greatsword stabs. 8-) I know that you will hit the horse's head before he can stab you, if you time it right. However, if the cav turns at the right moment, he will kill you instead of you taking down the horse.
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You never mentioned the horse, you said that it was longer than the heavy lance, and I just stated that it isn't. Heavy lance + shield is ~ 30 longer than greatsword stabs. 8-) I know that you will hit the horse's head before he can stab you, if you time it right. However, if the cav turns at the right moment, he will kill you instead of you taking down the horse.
Also forgot to mention that there are two polarm stabs. With and without shield. The one with the shield is actually pretty good. Think it was +50 or something? And really, the turning away works, but mainly against stupid 2h. Most will know what to do and manage to outreach them, even when they are turning, or just sidestep and stab from the side because of the limited lance angle. But that really was besides my point. A sword really shouldn't be able to be an effective anti-lance weapon, but they currently are. It's more safer and easier to fight a guy with a SPEAR than a SWORD as a lancer. That's just WTF in my eyes.
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What is this, cross pollination?
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None of those 1h outreach Katana. As to outreaching a spear... I think you should stay away from theorizing.
The + to thrust is +80.
Sigh, no -- katana has the longest reach attack, the thrust. It doesn't matter what the 1hander does.
The longest reach attack? You can barely call the katana stab an attack, 16p will glance 80% of the time.
The katana shouldn't have its swing buffed from 35c to 37c. It should have get its stab buffed to 19p/20p. It was 35c and 18p before, I would still love to have a conversation about that with the guy who thought it was necesarry to nerf the katana back then to a 16p thrust.
Also on the subject of ghost reach, all curved weapons have ghost reach. I think the actual length of the curved model is somehow the actual range cause they hit from miles away. I have experienced the following weapons as having ghost reach on several occasions: scimitars, katana, miaodao, highland claymore and the barmace. The first three are curved, the latter two are just borked. Pretty sure they have it though.
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It won't glance if you use it properly from the maximum distance. I'm sorry, but you being "pretty sure" about the ghost reach isn't very convincing when you're sure that the Danish is strangely slow compared to the German... I think you're seeing ghost problems where there are none. Geddit? Ghost problems. Heh. Heheh.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4MjuEqaSWmk#t=11s
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Katana stab is the most worse thing that i ever seen. I haven't seen anyone that stabbed with katana, only good players can pwn with this xD
I think that it shall be removed, when u fight with katana and u will accidentally make stab, you will lose cause you will bounce off enemy armor...
So - my vote is - yes, it shall be removed.
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Katana stab is the most worse thing that i ever seen. I haven't seen anyone that stabbed with katana, only good players can pwn with this xD
I think that it shall be removed, when u fight with katana and u will accidentally make stab, you will lose cause you will bounce off enemy armor...
So - my vote is - yes, it shall be removed.
You bounce then you block...
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It won't glance if you use it properly from the maximum distance. I'm sorry, but you being "pretty sure" about the ghost reach isn't very convincing when you're sure that the Danish is strangely slow compared to the German... I think you're seeing ghost problems where there are none. Geddit? Ghost problems. Heh. Heheh.
Although I am in favour of rationalism I just call em as I see em. I never said I was sure that the Danish is slower than the German. I haven't even said that I am pretty sure about the ghost reach. I have just experienced ghost reach with those weapons multiple times. Wasn't the general consensus when the barmace still had crushthrough and everyone used it, that it had ghost reach? That the barmace is less used doesn't mean the ghost reach is gone.
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General consensus in the 15th censury was that Earth is the middle of the universe. And remember all those "omg archery OP with new bodkins" threads when it didn't even work yet? Or those "new hitboxes" threads? Or the "polearms no longer rear hawrses!" threads? General consensus means nothing, and I never heard anything about barmace ghostreach.
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I'm fine with the stab. You can catch a few low armoured people off guard with it, and if you don't want to stab then don't stab.
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Katana stab is the most worse thing that i ever seen. I haven't seen anyone that stabbed with katana, only good players can pwn with this xD
I think that it shall be removed, when u fight with katana and u will accidentally make stab, you will lose cause you will bounce off enemy armor...
So - my vote is - yes, it shall be removed.
I vote you just do not use it. Find something more suitable, perhaps a cleaver.
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Katana should be comparable to bastard sword. Shorter, but faster, more cut, but less pierce. Drop 1 cut and give 2 pierce or drop 1 speed and give 3 pierce.
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Zisa - i use danish for now, but katana too. Katana stab is just lol xD And i am still holding my opinion.
Zagibu - just make thrust deal pierce damage and it shall be good :)
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Is the stupid high damage for that speed not enough for you guys? Holy shit.
With the current SHITTY FUCKING SERVERS STRAINED TO THE MOON already, any weapon over 100 speed has fucking game breaking speed.
Hell, masterwork Katana has 40c with a 102 speed tag, and you guys still complain and want a god damned thrust buff too?
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Is the stupid high damage for that speed not enough for you guys? Holy shit.
With the current SHITTY FUCKING SERVERS STRAINED TO THE MOON already, any weapon over 100 speed has fucking game breaking speed.
Hell, masterwork Katana has 40c with a 102 speed tag, and you guys still complain and want a god damned thrust buff too?
Yes. Because the katana is too underpowered. Really. It is. Trust me!
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Patricia does have a point, the Katana is ludicrously fast, I really don't see how people can complain about it further. There is no similar weapon.
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Well, as stated in my original post, I'm not asking for a thrust BUFF, I'm asking for it to be Removed. I don't know where these guys are coming from adding damage to the thrust.
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I think they should nerf the katana thrust further, but to balance it out, they should select one person with a masterwork katana each week to give the "Shogun Katana", which has 110 speed, 103 length and 60 cut to be used for seven days.
Yes, no?
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That would b e my old balanced katana John. Oh, it is also cursed.