cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on October 27, 2011, 04:58:34 am
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The reason I ask for you to review them is that pol/2h are able to produce characters(due to the lack of required shield skill) that are exceedingly fast and strong compared to a 1h/shield. Further more to dump even more unbalance to this, the str requirements for armor are so low that these roid enhanced meth pole/2h can wear very heavy armors. Even with the wpf effect a 1h/shield is required to wear armor nearly 10 kg lighter just to be able to keep up in athletics and swing speeds.
So, please review this problem if there is one.
On a further note, 1h are more capable of glancing and getting stuck on objects rather than their 2h and pol counterparts. Shouldnt this be the other way around, especially when facehugging.
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I do not see a problem.
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Please stop posting about "speed" issues.
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So, please review this problem if there is one..
There is none.
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Michael stop posting from alt accounts!
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There is no problem, except sometimes blade go through shield, which doesn't happen with a block from a blade (retarded).
Except that game mechanics fail, it is completely balanced, no need to argue, you need to train.
You could argue that shield are not so usefull against ranged, it slows you down and doesn't protect you very well, it is sometimes easier to dodge without shield.
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But you get to have a SHIELD. I respecced 1h/shield last gen and loved it, and I'm going 1h this gen again. The problem is a lot of shielders try to play agressively like 2h and polearm, which is something the build is not meant for.
The shielder is a team player, do not aim solely for kills, but support your teammates. Remember, your shield is an effective weapon in team battles too. You do not always have to attack to help out your team, simply facehugging while blocking is very powerful when you have a teammate helping you.
When you fight, play defensively. You don't always have to match your opponents swings hit for hit - don't let go of your block simply because you just blocked your opponents previous attack. Swing ONLY if you are guaranteed not to be hit, through timing and footwork. Have patience!
Shielders have AMAZING survivalbility, provided that you constantly keep up your situational awareness. A shielder can survive being outnumbered and surrounded much easier than a 2h/pole. When confronted with an angry spammer or a mob of angry spammers, don't be afraid to turtle up and retreat, causing the enemy to teamhit each other while you wait for your team to reinforce you.
The reason 2h/pole seem to be better than 1h is because its easier to get kills with them as a newer/noobier player, and generally, that composes most of the players in a given server. However, a good 1h shielder can do just as well as a good 2h/pole. 1h is not worse, just harder to master.
tl;dr - LEARN TO PLAY :lol:
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left to right swing is your bread and butter, thats what gets you kills most of the time
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Shield saves you from projectiles. It's a huge boon as long as the polearm/2h-lobbyist army doesn't nerf ranged (which in general is currently not in any way overpowered) to ground. 1h also has very impressive selection of weapons for different situations (even if I generally only use one weapon :D)
I went 1h+shield from a polearm char and I really don't regret.
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Shield saves you from projectiles. It's a huge boon as long as the polearm/2h-lobbyist army doesn't nerf ranged (which in general is currently not in any way overpowered) to ground. 1h also has very impressive selection of weapons for different situations (even if I generally only use one weapon :D)
I went 1h+shield from a polearm char and I really don't regret.
No shields DONT save you from projectiles as often as you'd think. When other classes like 2h/ranged would dodge, shielders hold course THINKING their shield will protect them...and thats only true about 75% of the time. Its not difficult for the veteran archers to sneak shit past shields. I use a heavy round (2nd biggest shield in game) w/5 skill and routinely get hit by archers I'm facing in my frontal 90 degree arc
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No shields DONT save you from projectiles as often as you'd think. When other classes like 2h/ranged would dodge, shielders hold course THINKING their shield will protect them...and thats only true about 75% of the time. Its not difficult for the veteran archers to sneak shit past shields. I use a heavy round (2nd biggest shield in game) w/5 skill and routinely get hit by archers I'm facing in my frontal 90 degree arc
I can confirm this! I rage quit shielder cuz even with 5 shield skill i got headshot 2 times trough my heavy kyte shield and slashes/shot around it multiple time even with other and bigger shields too.
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You people are just bad. I rarely got headshotted or hit around the shield with my 5 shield skill and Elite Cavalry Shield (which is a very small shield).
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You people are just bad. I rarely got headshotted or hit around the shield with my 5 shield skill and Elite Cavalry Shield (which is a very small shield).
Meh, happened to me yesterday. Archer on a slight slope, I'm advancing holding my shield high (looking up so my face is protected and feet exposed) and I got headshotted by him.
I got laughed at for 10 minutes in TS for being one of 2 shielders on the map and I still got killed by an archer.
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Apparently not only are The Fallen the best archers, but we are the best at using shields at the proper angles to not get shot.
I guess all those times when we practice against ourselves pay off!
Or we use hax.
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Only problem I have is movement. Shielders move way too slow.
If I'm being 2v1d against shielders, they can't even facehug me since my backpedal/sidestep will get them out of range almost every time, and their damage is usually bad enough to not even worry about them since most shielders are agi instead of stacking strength like they should.
Otherwise, it's alright I guess. I hate projectiles hitting around my knightly heater all day long, but I guess that's the negative of the shield. An archer 30 degrees off of my front will be able to hit me, so even turning slightly to my left or right is dangerous. I could use the larger shields, but they're way too slow, so I accept this overall.
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Huey moves way too fast.
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Im sorry but only those who are dedicated 1h/shield input is valid. Course other classes dont want to improve the "most balanced" class. When something is "balanced" its underpowered when it comes to the gaming world.
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1h+shield is fine. Only annoying thing are lordly armors (yes, I realize I'm saying this quite a lot BUT THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S TRUE DAWG) because you need ten thousand seven hundred and thirty one hits to kill someone wearing one (and lordly gauntlets).
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1h+shield is fine. Only annoying thing are lordly armors (yes, I realize I'm saying this quite a lot BUT THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S TRUE DAWG) because you need ten thousand seven hundred and thirty one hits to kill someone wearing one (and lordly gauntlets).
Nerf torso armour from 7 to 4 and Gauntlets from 7 to 3 or 4
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Nerf torso armour from 7 to 4 and Gauntlets from 7 to 3 or 4
And then nerf ranged looms and we'll all be happy.
Also, I find 1h (especially maces and picks) to be really useful during this era of lordly armors since 1h headhit often and get by people's blocks more easily.
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Overall I find 1 handers to be balanced with 2 handers and poles.
However, I think that shields are more of a liability unless you are an agi build. They slow you down too much and can be fired around and the coverage (on non-round shields) is pretty small. Manual blocks are also much faster than most shields. Still, perfect blocking with some caveats makes up for those faults.
Honestly my only real problem with melee mechanics is that hilt slashing with 2 handers is still pretty easy to do.
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Im playing a shielder atm 21-15 with 7ps and 7if. I use a MW long arming sword and i must say i easily hold my own against most 2h and poles. (i play agressive and sometimes it fails) Polearms are a pain in the arse 1 on 1 because they break shields and a hit nearly ALWAYS staggers me massivly. A lot of 2h players seem to wear light head armour or see a shielder and think easy kill! Light head armour = quick death and charge = stab in the face. Now skilled 2h are more difficult because they can block well and it usually takes a long time to fight them.
If your having trouble with spammy 2h as a shielder just block and wait for help or remember that 99% of the time they are going to try to hiltslash so hold block for the second hit before attacking. If they backpeddle just leave them alone.
Shielders dont need any buff. Shield bash instead of kick would be epic though <3
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I'm a dedicated shielder and I don't think shielders are imbalanced when it comes to speed. There are definitely things which need tweaking (stabs bouncing too much, for example) but speed isn't one of them. As a shielder, with only 5 athletics, I'm often the fastest running player on my team. Using a medium shield and footwork, I find I can also land some of the fastest blows in a fight. Against bowmen I orient myself to receive or avoid every incoming shot, and rarely get hit when an archer is in my line of sight. Against 2h and Polearms I use opponent-specific tactics and rarely find myself outgunned (though I'm often outmatched - but that's entirely different).
TL;DR: Shielders are fine and Fallen hax
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After coming off two one hand builds with a scimitar and buckler I see no problem, in fact compared to manual blocking it was very much ezmode
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Im sorry but only those who are dedicated 1h/shield input is valid. Course other classes dont want to improve the "most balanced" class. When something is "balanced" its underpowered when it comes to the gaming world.
I'm a shielder (atleast my main is one) and I think the class is indeed balanced. I play with a stabby sword (side sword) and I could rage all day because of the rediculous glances I get sometimes, but I don't, because I still get decent scores at the top of the scoreboard and I can deal good damage.
Also str-build + MW Elite Spamitard is perhaps the easiest thing in crpg.
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Laufknoten sucks, don't listen to him. Str build as a shielder is pure suicide, you need agi for your shield.
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Laufknoten sucks, don't listen to him. Str build as a shielder is pure suicide, you need agi for your shield.
You're right, Xant. xD Btw I never play with less than 6 ath or 5 shield skill. :D
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Str build as a shielder is pure suicide
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You're wrong brah
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You're wrong brah
Yeah, because being a shielder with shitty shield is totally worth it.
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You can do a lot with some of the 4 tier shields in my opinion.
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The tier doesn't matter, shield skill does. What good are shields if you just get shot through it by archers?
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The tier doesn't matter, shield skill does. What good are shields if you just get shot through it by archers?
I've never had a problem against archers with 5 shield skill and that still leaves plenty of room for a str heavy build. 24/15, 21/18 and 21/15 are all quite viable builds imo.
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I wouldn't call those "str heavy" builds...
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I think a 27/12 would count as strength heavy, and I managed to make it work using one of the kite shields (or knightly heater in a small server). It requires a long weapon though obviously and being smart about where you go.
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I don't see a point in that. If you're going for a strength build, why use a 1hander that's shorter and does less damage? 2h or polearm build would do it better.
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27/15 here and it works well for me.
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Level..?
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My guess is 33.
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Yep, things obviously change at that high levels, you can make crazy builds.
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Well i use elite cavalry shield and it seems good enough against archers.
I have problems only when:
-I fight in melee and get hit by enemy or friendly archers
-I get shot from sides or rear (You can't blame shield for that right?)
Also shields are fine in strategus. 8-)
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I can vouch for 2h and polearm type weapons going though objects when 1h would normally get stuck.
Gets me killed at least once a day actually, posted about it like 6 months ago and got met with harsh criticism.
Watch gatehouse battles with 1h and 2h players in there, you will notice the 1h gets stuck on EVERYTHING, the 2h will get stuck occasionally and usually will fire unhindered.
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Watch gatehouse battles with 1h and 2h players in there, you will notice the 1h gets stuck on EVERYTHING, the 2h will get stuck occasionally and usually will fire unhindered.
Maybe 3 months ago, but now? Don't think so. 2h/poles get stuck on fucking wind nowadays.
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Yeah, because being a shielder with shitty shield is totally worth it.
Balbaroth does amazing things with 3 shield skill and a brown lion heater (he's not a STR build though).
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May I ask a question? What does shield skill do actually? I know it increases the coverage and reduce the damage taken. It's alsoa prerequisite for most of the shields too. But does it increase the shield speed? Maybe doing so, could be nice.
I started to play as a shielder as my main, I am around 23 level so I guess it is ok for me to got beaten by 2handers like Phyrex. But when I challenged phyrex in one on one I managed to hit him twice for at least every encounter, and died with a single swing which is pretty unavoidable with those crazy spams. Actually I find it harder to block with shield than normal blocking. It requires very careful timing, and when you try to face with a 2hander who is experienced at offense power and knows what he's doing you can not simply do much as him in 1vs1. Yeah it is agreed a shielder shouldn't have the same aggresive power as a two hander, but I wouldn't call the shielder has more defensive power than a 2hander too (faster movement and heavier armor). Also when something requires much more concentration than it's counterparts I wouldn't call it balanced.
At least that's my experiences now, and I don't call my thoughts completed yet. I don't want to be criticized harshly since you guys are the "game is balanced" idiom, but can you say that are these only because I'm level 23? To say what my stats are: 17 STR 15 AGI / and I was planning to pump STR from now on (just as in the zagibu's offensive shielder guide). Now I am doubtful, It seems like my movement speed is frustrating. Attack speed too.
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It´s only my taste but i dont like 15 agi.
I dont like it as shielder and i dont like it as 2H.
But its my personal style. Most people will tell you
that STR is the way to go. Just try it out and decide on 30 if you
like it or not. You will probably retire so you can adjust your build
then.
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May I ask a question? What does shield skill do actually? I know it increases the coverage and reduce the damage taken. It's alsoa prerequisite for most of the shields too. But does it increase the shield speed? Maybe doing so, could be nice.
I started to play as a shielder as my main, I am around 23 level so I guess it is ok for me to got beaten by 2handers like Phyrex. But when I challenged phyrex in one on one I managed to hit him twice for at least every encounter, and died with a single swing which is pretty unavoidable with those crazy spams. Actually I find it harder to block with shield than normal blocking. It requires very careful timing, and when you try to face with a 2hander who is experienced at offense power and knows what he's doing you can not simply do much as him in 1vs1. Yeah it is agreed a shielder shouldn't have the same aggresive power as a two hander, but I wouldn't call the shielder has more defensive power than a 2hander too (faster movement and heavier armor). Also when something requires much more concentration than it's counterparts I wouldn't call it balanced.
At least that's my experiences now, and I don't call my thoughts completed yet. I don't want to be criticized harshly since you guys are the "game is balanced" idiom, but can you say that are these only because I'm level 23? To say what my stats are: 17 STR 15 AGI / and I was planning to pump STR from now on (just as in the zagibu's offensive shielder guide). Now I am doubtful, It seems like my movement speed is frustrating. Attack speed too.
First off, +1 for the Guybrush avatar.
Shield skill increases coverage, reduces damage to the shield and increases shield speed.
There's a big difference between manual blocking and blocking with a shield. Manual blocking is pretty much instantaneous, blocking with a shield IS NOT unless you are using a 100 speed shield. You can tap blocks with a 100 speed shield. This also accounts for some instances of getting hit through your shield. You shield looks up, but it actually isn't. With a 100 speed shield your shield is actually blocking before it is fully raised.
Blocking with a shield IS easier than blocking without. As long as you watch your facing, you are fine. That being said, I actually prefer 1-handers without the shield. You are hilariously fast and can easily dart in and out of the range of the 2-hander. You just have to watch for weapon stun. One thing that does put 1-handers at a disadvantage is hilt-slashing. It's possible with a 2-hander and impossible with a 1-hander. I've had many 2-handers try to facehug me for that reason.
As far as builds go, I still think that balanced builds are best for 1-handers. 15/21, 18/18, 21/15, 18/21
Strength builds are a waste for 1-handers unless you're level 33 or something. 1-handers and PS doesn't scale well due to the low initial damage of 1-handers. A 1-hander also needs good maneuverability and a decent shield.
Anyway, don't get discouraged when fighting 2-handers. Once you get your timing and footwork down you can wreck most of them pretty easily. They may have damage and reach, but you have speed, perfect blocking and a left-slash that almost always hits the head. Not too shabby if you ask me.
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Anyway, don't get discouraged when fighting 2-handers. Once you get your timing and footwork down you can wreck most of them pretty easily. They may have damage and reach, but you have speed, perfect blocking and a left-slash that almost always hits the head. Not too shabby if you ask me.
There's also a trick to knowing what kind of 2h player you're fighting. Many backpeddle and are generally irritating. Many hug for hiltslashes while looking down, and almost invariably fail to block overhead attacks. This kind of thing is a matter of practice though, and only ever adds depth to the game over time.
Somebody should make an intro-guide about play-styles for each class. That would be really helpful to a lot of people.
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There's also a trick to knowing what kind of 2h player you're fighting. Many backpeddle and are generally irritating. Many hug for hiltslashes while looking down, and almost invariably fail to block overhead attacks. This kind of thing is a matter of practice though, and only ever adds depth to the game over time.
Somebody should make an intro-guide about play-styles for each class. That would be really helpful to a lot of people.
Yes, I find that knowing your enemy is very important as a 1h player, as you are almost always outranged and outdamaged, and choosing the wrong time and direction to attack can get you killed very quickly.
I find myself choosing two playstyles depending on the person I'm fighting.
One is facehugging using mainly left attacks on their head, and throwing in the occasional up attack, while feinting to throw them off.
The other is to mainly use the longer right swing and thrust, combined with timing to outrange my opponent.
Against good duelists though, you have to mix it up a bit.
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Some body post a video of keen thorn going all bubonic on a server. That man had chocolate chip cookie like efficiency when it came to killing.
Also shielder is broken in to 2 sub class. Offensive, defensive. If you don't like how fast you are moving, ditch your armor back a notch, go 15/24 and use a lighter shield.
You can't be everything! That is the point of this mod. If you wish to be an unstoppable kill bot go play native.
You should go read the shielder guides. There are some very good ones.
To sum my point up into one sentence.
You are doing it wrong.
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I actually prefer 1-handers without the shield. You are hilariously fast and can easily dart in and out of the range of the 2-hander.
As far as builds go, I still think that balanced builds are best for 1-handers. 15/21, 18/18, 21/15, 18/21
I agree with the above, but I want to place a small side note:
darting in and out of range of a 2h (usually at 21/18 or 18/21 builds) with a 21/15 build is pretty much impossible.
Using the 21/15 build it takes all my effort to keep up with the side-swinging, hilt-slashing fighting style of GTX and co. They usually manage to hit me again after my block, eventhough I attack back with a left-right swing with them standing on my left hand side.
There's no chance in the world I can dart in and out of range against them.
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I agree with the above, but I want to place a small side note:
darting in and out of range of a 2h (usually at 21/18 or 18/21 builds) with a 21/15 build is pretty much impossible.
Using the 21/15 build it takes all my effort to keep up with the side-swinging, hilt-slashing fighting style of GTX and co. They usually manage to hit me again after my block, eventhough I attack back with a left-right swing with them standing on my left hand side.
There's no chance in the world I can dart in and out of range against them.
Solution would be lvl35 and 15/27 ;)
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Solution would be lvl35 and 15/27 ;)
Meh, 5 PS doesn't hurt that much. I'd make it 21/21 myself :)
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I agree with the above, but I want to place a small side note:
darting in and out of range of a 2h (usually at 21/18 or 18/21 builds) with a 21/15 build is pretty much impossible.
Using the 21/15 build it takes all my effort to keep up with the side-swinging, hilt-slashing fighting style of GTX and co. They usually manage to hit me again after my block, eventhough I attack back with a left-right swing with them standing on my left hand side.
There's no chance in the world I can dart in and out of range against them.
The fun part comes when you DO hit them first, but glance since 1h has a huge penalty to damage (and lower damage by default) for hitting early in the animation.
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darting in and out of range of a 2h (usually at 21/18 or 18/21 builds) with a 21/15 build is pretty much impossible.
I do alright with 15 AGI. I carry 13.1kg of equipment and can often outspeed more heavily armoured 2handers.
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That's nearly no armour whatsoever.
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That's nearly no armour whatsoever.
Why would you want to wear a bunch of armor as a shielder? :s
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Teammates love nothing more than slashing shielders in the back, that's why.
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That's nearly no armour whatsoever.
29 armour babe, s'how we do it in the big T O (that's Toronto, Canada)
I realized, after giving up my Warhammer, that the most fun way to play cRPG is to fight. Not to get kills, or to support, but to fight people. I also realized that it's a nice challenge to run in medium armour because it forces me to be far more aware of the battle in general. Right now, when I join a fight, I feel like I'm actually fighting in a battle: I need to watch out for my team, since I know I can't carry them with my light build, I need to kill enemy, since I'm a good team player insofar as I try to do everything I can without help, and I'm careful, because I try to be an important part of something bigger than me. Lighter armour has made cRPG gameplay much more dynamic than I believed it could be, and I now see why it's a common progression for so many players.
Also, light armour is sexy :D
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29 armour babe, s'how we do it in the big T O (that's Toronto, Canada)
I realized, after giving up my Warhammer, that the most fun way to play cRPG is to fight. Not to get kills, or to support, but to fight people. I also realized that it's a nice challenge to run in medium armour because it forces me to be far more aware of the battle in general. Right now, when I join a fight, I feel like I'm actually fighting in a battle: I need to watch out for my team, since I know I can't carry them with my light build, I need to kill enemy, since I'm a good team player insofar as I try to do everything I can without help, and I'm careful, because I try to be an important part of something bigger than me. Lighter armour has made cRPG gameplay much more dynamic than I believed it could be, and I now see why it's a common progression for so many players.
Also, light armour is sexy :D
Running 21/21 right now as a 1hander. Kinda fun.
Mostly pilgrim disguise.
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Running 21/21 right now as a 1hander. Kinda fun.
Mostly pilgrim disguise.
Got to love how in 1v1 a 1h weapon is actually more effective if you don't spec into shield at all or use one.
Just a funny little bit of info.
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Got to love how in 1v1 a 1h weapon is actually more effective if you don't spec into shield at all or use one.
Just a funny little bit of info.
Actually, you're better off without a shield in almost ALL situations. Well, as long as you can block.
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Actually, you're better off without a shield in almost ALL situations. Well, as long as you can block.
Only reason I cary a shield is for ranged (enemy hits), group combat (enemy and allied hits) and ganking (allied hits). But many a time, it's better to drop the shield than keep carrying it.