cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: 1slander on February 04, 2011, 06:41:44 pm
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We need a stamina bar of some kind. It could effect walk speed, swing speed, damage on hit, etc. It would be effected by the obvious, like equipment weight, movement, attacking, etc. It would sure turn down the spammers.
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This again...Lets make this short: No, it would ruin the game. Go look up one of the other million threads about stamina if you want to know why.
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A slash in the head stop spammers too...
No need of stamina bar for that, for other things may be, but not for that.
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This again...Lets make this short: Yes, it would fix the game. Go look up one of the other million threads about stamina if you want to know why.
There fix'd
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This again...Lets make this short: No, it would ruin the game. Go look up one of the other million threads about stamina if you want to know why.
Now that I've heard your opinion I'm going to open up my mind and listen to every one elses. Thanks for your two bit retort.
I among others feel this is a needed change.
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Is there a day when we don't get a stamina bar request? Oh yeah cRPG would be so awesome with stamina, you will hit-block-hit-block for ages in slow motion, oh joy :rolleyes:
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Is there a day when we don't get a stamina bar request? Oh yeah cRPG would be so awesome with stamina, you will hit-block-hit-block for ages in slow motion, oh joy :rolleyes:
LOL Blocking requires stamina too in a stamina bar system -_- a Half-Life2 Medieval mod known as Age of Chivalry had one and it was really great! When you would run/block/attack it would take some of your stamina depending on the weight of ur armor and weapon. While simply walking and not blocking or attacking, you would regen your stamina over time like around 5-10 seconds. It's just to not let players manual block like 15 hits in a row or swing a polearms 10 times without getting tired... Making the game even more realistic.
I'm not saying that we should copy that but it's still some good ideas :D
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We need a stamina bar of some kind. It could effect walk speed, swing speed, damage on hit, etc. It would be effected by the obvious, like equipment weight, movement, attacking, etc. It would sure turn down the spammers.
Learn to block. LEARN TO BLOCK. Blocking solves ALL spammer problems. ALL OF THEM! NO STAMINA BAR EVER OR I WILL NEVER LET GO OF THE SHIFT KEY!
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LOL Blocking requires stamina too in a stamina bar system -_- a Half-Life2 Medieval mod known as Age of Chivalry had one and it was really great! When you would run/block/attack it would take some of your stamina depending on the weight of ur armor and weapon. While simply walking and not blocking or attacking, you would regen your stamina over time like around 5-10 seconds. It's just to not let players manual block like 15 hits in a row or swing a polearms 10 times without getting tired... Making the game even more realistic.
I'm not saying that we should copy that but it's still some good ideas :D
Your idea is bad and you should feel bad. "Perfect blocking" is what makes Warband require so much skill. There's always room to improve your skill and it will never be artificially capped by some stamina bar.
The only "stamina bar" we need is the player's ability to focus. Wear their concentration and patience out with feints, delayed attacks, varied attack patterns, and footwork. When their "stamina bar" runs out they'll make a mistake and then you kill them.
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All a stamina bar would do to this game would be to make the lighter faster waepon users GODS of the game. There would be no point to using anything else.
Plate= there went your stamina
Polearm= stamina gone
2h= one swing no more swingy
1h= new spammer.
And let's not forget at long ranged weapns or throwers. Crossbows are the new sexy
Horrible idea. Talk about breaking the balance
Right now people have to actually waste attribute and wpf to use these classes effectively. And you want to take that away too?
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Your idea is bad and you should feel bad. "Perfect blocking" is what makes Warband require so much skill. There's always room to improve your skill and it will never be artificially capped by some stamina bar.
Why should I feel bad for saying my opinion? O.O'' Are you fascist?
Anyway, you should be the one feeling bad cuz "good spammers" will just spam you until you fuck up a block or 2 and kill you! I know how to block man, I'm no noob thank you very much! "Good spammers" will just not give you time to counter so what are you gonna do? Block block block block -oh shit got hit- block block block -oh shit got hit- etc etc etc... until they kill you if nobody comes to help you back stab him... You can't perfectly block all the hits of a real spammer! Some are surely gonna hit you! Man when you can't even land a hit/counter cuz of retarded game mecanism it's not my "lack of blocking skills" that needs to be fixed but a simple system that would make spamming impossible!
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All a stamina bar would do to this game would be to make the lighter faster waepon users GODS of the game. There would be no point to using anything else.
Plate= there went your stamina
Polearm= stamina gone
2h= one swing no more swingy
1h= new spammer.
And let's not forget at long ranged weapns or throwers. Crossbows are the new sexy
Horrible idea. Talk about breaking the balance
Right now people have to actually waste attribute and wpf to use these classes effectively. And you want to take that away too?
You are right of course, because adding stamina would have to be done in a completely dumb and unbalanced way. Somehow, stamina couldn't be balanced and tweaked like all other aspects of the game, because...
If you can finish this sentence, I will start reading your posts again.
Stamina could indeed improve the game. Of course, strength would influence how much stamina you lose due to item weight. A strong character can carry more and swing heavier weapons without getting tired.
Furthermore, it would be a chance to remove the requirements on weapons. Instead of silly hard requirements, weapons would be available for everyone, but if you are not strong enough, you lose a lot of stamina when swinging it, making your second swing slow as hell. Would also be better for balance, because if some agi spammers abused some weapon, you could simply make it a bit heavier, so that they could still use it, but wouldn't be as fast anymore. Currently, you can either make the weapon slower in general, which also affects str builds, or you can up the requirements, which will render it completely unusable for some builds.
BTW: We don't need a visual cue for stamina, if your player starts to swing slowly, just stop swinging and running for a while. So we don't really need a stamina "bar", just the mechanism.
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You are right of course, because adding stamina would have to be done in a completely dumb and unbalanced way. Somehow, stamina couldn't be balanced and tweaked like all other aspects of the game, because...
If you can finish this sentence, I will start reading your posts again.
Stamina could indeed improve the game. Of course, strength would influence how much stamina you lose due to item weight. A strong character can carry more and swing heavier weapons without getting tired.
Furthermore, it would be a chance to remove the requirements on weapons. Instead of silly hard requirements, weapons would be available for everyone, but if you are not strong enough, you lose a lot of stamina when swinging it, making your second swing slow as hell. Would also be better for balance, because if some agi spammers abused some weapon, you could simply make it a bit heavier, so that they could still use it, but wouldn't be as fast anymore. Currently, you can either make the weapon slower in general, which also affects str builds, or you can up the requirements, which will render it completely unusable for some builds.
BTW: We don't need a visual cue for stamina, if your player starts to swing slowly, just stop swinging and running for a while. So we don't really need a stamina "bar", just the mechanism.
That's good ideas in my opinion (needed to state it was an opinion for the fascist mouse)! But a visual cue would be nice too I think, like the hp bar.
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First of all blocking shouldn't be impaired with such a system. Blocking should take little out of your toon thought. Running, shooting speed and swinging recovery speed for heavy weapons should only be affected. Of course all 2H spammers and polespammers resist this. It's kinda obvious response from them. I myself would love this nerf to my weapon. Argument that this would ruin the game probably spawns from failed attempts in some games at this. These guys should go and try original operation flashpoint for example to see how it improves game.
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First of all blocking shouldn't be impaired with such a system. Blocking should take little out of your toon thought. Running, shooting speed and swinging recovery speed for heavy weapons should only be affected. Of course all 2H spammers and polespammers resist this. It's kinda obvious response from them. I myself would love this nerf to my weapon. Argument that this would ruin the game probably spawns from failed attempts in some games at this. These guys should go and try original operation flashpoint for example to see how it improves game.
No, arguments that a stamina system would ruin the game stem from not wanting to see the amazing, fast paced and frantic melee combat of m&b ruined by a system that takes away player control. If you're getting spammed, you're doing it wrong, go practice until you realise that spam is useless unless backed up by excellent footwork, timing and blocking.
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No, arguments that a stamina system would ruin the game stem from not wanting to see the amazing, fast paced and frantic melee combat of m&b ruined by a system that takes away player control. If you're getting spammed, you're doing it wrong, go practice until you realise that spam is useless unless backed up by excellent footwork, timing and blocking.
You can have a "fast-paced" and "frantic" melee combat with a good balanced stamina system, as I said earlier the stamina system in Age Of Chivalry is a good example it is do-able! I'm :lol: at your argument :mrgreen:
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You can have a "fast-paced" and "frantic" melee combat with a good balanced stamina system, as I said earlier the stamina system in Age Of Chivalry is a good example it is do-able! I'm :lol: at your argument :mrgreen:
I disagree, I didn't like it.
Anyway you're 2 arguments for a stamina system are: realism and to counter spam. I rather doubt that professional soldiers get tired of 5 minutes of fighting. And countering spam is just a matter of experience. Go play for 1000 hours and see if you still complain about spam.
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Don't need a stamina bar, the game just needs to limit swing speed based on the weapon's weight.
WPF turns even the heaviest weapons into lightning fast killing machines, and IMO this shouldn't be the case. Unfortunately this isn't a problem cRPG has, it's Warband itself.
In my perfect world I'd rather see WPF have a much less visible effect on swing speed, and stay primarily a modifier for weapon damage/effectiveness.
AOC's stamina turned the game into a convoluted mess leading to lopsided gameplay and there was nothing you could do unless you played the Knight class. They may iron out the problems with their new game Battle for Agatha, though.
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Go play for 1000 hours and see if you still complain about spam.
As I write this, I have up to exactly 385 hours of cRPG (it's written on steam) in about 2-3 months. I'v played enough to know what are the game mecanisms.
Also, as Helbrass stated : WPF turns even the heaviest weapons into lightning fast killing machines, and IMO this shouldn't be the case. Unfortunately this isn't a problem cRPG has, it's Warband itself.
So, a stamina bar was an idea to remove the possibility of spamming. If it isn't a good idea then what should be done to fix that issue? The stamina bar was just an idea but I'm sure there's better ones.
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what should be done to fix that issue?
block, right after you hear the DING or CLANG then you attack, remember to be attacking the direction in-which your weapon ARC will hit the opponent the fastest.
If the opponent has a heavier weapon they have a chance to stun you, blocking twice in a row will fix this and then allow you to continue on with the dance.
If this option does not meet your fancy try this one
Your stamina bar is your health, you can swing as much as you want until you run out. If you want to stop your opponent from swinging more than you, hit them with a weapon of choice.
:) this is just my opinion of course, I don't believe we need a stamina bar, though it would be great, but I kinda like the idea that you are not limited by anything really than your own skill.
I really enjoy that sometimes, SOMETIMES, a 5v1 battle ends with the victor being that ONE person.
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If it isn't a good idea then what should be done to fix that issue? The stamina bar was just an idea but I'm sure there's better ones.
I don't know the exact methods in play to calculate weapon speed, but IMO no human being on earth could move heavy weapons with the speed they do in Warband.
I think the devs were confused at where two hander speed comes from: their momentum. They realized these weapons could be fast but didn't take into account the wind-up time it takes to get there, and how devastating it can be to lose that momentum. So we have players that can unleash relentless attacks that can't skillfully be countered unless a considerable amount of luck is factored in. And if the weapon has crushthrough? You might as well either run, stay away, or prepare to die.
I can't really offer anything solid to please all sides of the field. But like I suggested earlier: make weapon weight the determining factor in a weapon's speed, give or take some small differences depending on the particular weapon. Two-hander damage and range more than makes up for a lower speed, and that momentum can be attained by (we hope skillfully) chaining attacks which are placed to HIT, not overwhelm.
Again this suggestion surrounds an issue that lies mostly with the core of Warband, but I think it's something that could be changed in the mod.
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How would this affect archers? fire 8 shots and out of breath? D:
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There is no spammer problem, there is only bad players problem. My xbower has 44 wpf in 2h/21 agi (yeah, its kinda a gimp), using a bastard sword and noone can spam me, not even Thomek/Khorin with their agi builds and hierloomed katanas. Yes, they will kill me easily, and not only them tbh, but mainly because of theirs insane feints and my fail blocks.
If you are getting spammed, you deserve it, because you are bad/new player and can't grasp the concept of attacking immidietaly and only after blocking.
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How would this affect archers? fire 8 shots and out of breath? D:
Gradually lose accuracy if you continously spam arrows. Try it irl and see how it works :D
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I don't know the exact methods in play to calculate weapon speed, but IMO no human being on earth could move heavy weapons with the speed they do in Warband.
Bear in mind that most twohanders were actually quite damn light weapons, and not unwieldy metal clubs, and yes you did attack fast - the slowed down "showoff" moves are just that - acting. Medieval swordsmanship wasn't certainly a static attack-block-attack-block affair; it was preferable to dodge the attack and immediately counterattack, or to counterattack in such a way that it defeats the opponent's attack.
With the wpf reduction I really don't find the speed of weapons in CRPG to be really big. What IS silly is feinting with really large weapons which seems to defy laws of physics, but attacking speed itself isn't really problematic.
Most of the time, since the wpf reduction, if you get spammed (as a 2h/polearm player) it is really failing to attack from your side, or simply attacking on the wrong side. Of course, people with enough athletics have insane movement speeds (which bothers me sometimes, especially the look im going to literally run backwards uphill type maneuvers), which makes it tricky, but still.
Of course spam does work sometimes, particularly when you need to chop a multiple non-blocking/unaware opponents, but ehhh if someone's behind you and hits you in the back of the head, it is sort of your own problem (or your teammates failing to protect your back).
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Gradually lose accuracy if you continously spam arrows. Try it irl and see how it works :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs skip to 2:20 where he starts shooting the long bow. Doesn't seem to me that he is unable to shoot anymore after spamming 10 arrows accurately into the target with LONG BOW (rougly 150+ pounds).
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I never said you aren't able to shoot. Btw, look at the guy how exhausted he is after that. When your muscles start to get tired you cant aim as easily and you start to get the shakes. You can still keep shooting but it wont be the same as shooting fresh.
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As I write this, I have up to exactly 385 hours of cRPG (it's written on steam) in about 2-3 months. I'v played enough to know what are the game mecanisms.
Also, as Helbrass stated :
So, a stamina bar was an idea to remove the possibility of spamming. If it isn't a good idea then what should be done to fix that issue? The stamina bar was just an idea but I'm sure there's better ones.
If you're complaining about spamming, you haven't played enough. That isn't meant to be insulting, it's just the way it is. New and bad players have always complained about spam, older and better players have always said it's fine. Been that way since the warband beta. Also Helbrass didn't complain about spamming, he complained about the speed of heavy weapons. Personally with the level cap and the decreased amounts of wpf I think it's fine. But if the devs decide to change that, a simple multiplier to the weapon weight part of the speed equations would be all that is needed. No need to drastically change the entire combat system.
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If you're complaining about spamming, you haven't played enough.
heu... ok? The thing is, when I meant spamming, I meant somebody that was so fast and keeps attacking me that I don't even have the time to counter once I blocked! I don't mean noobs that just click click click but pure agi builds like beeper that can do feints with their long maul like it's a pen! Or once I blocked it, tried to counter but he was able to always swing it back at me before I could even touch him... and I had something like 164 WPF so I should have been able to counter! It is just annoying to fight agi builds that have a super long weapon, back pedalling while beating the crap out of you whenever you're trying to get to them. It's just retarded, even with the new "soft cap" for WPF, some people manage to do feints and swings with their super long weapon with the speed of light! That's what I mean by spamming.
Edit: Oh also, that same guy "beeper", was spamming so bad with a spear, once he touched me I would get stun-locked but he would hit me AGAIN before the stun-lock would wear off. He was able to hit me like 5 times in a row with me only able to move like an inch between each hit! I was spamming the right click button to freakin block with my shield but no effects at all, would still get stun locked! :mad: That again is a good example of spamming. It should not be do-able.
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heu... ok? The thing is, when I meant spamming, I meant somebody that was so fast and keeps attacking me that I don't even have the time to counter once I blocked! I don't mean noobs that just click click click but pure agi builds like beeper that can do feints with their long maul like it's a pen! Or once I blocked it, tried to counter but he was able to always swing it back at me before I could even touch him... and I had something like 164 WPF so I should have been able to counter! It is just annoying to fight agi builds that have a super long weapon, back pedalling while beating the crap out of you whenever you're trying to get to them. It's just retarded, even with the new "soft cap" for WPF, some people manage to do feints and swings with their super long weapon with the speed of light! That's what I mean by spamming.
Edit: Oh also, that same guy "beeper", was spamming so bad with a spear, once he touched me I would get stun-locked but he would hit me AGAIN before the stun-lock would wear off. He was able to hit me like 5 times in a row with me only able to move like an inch between each hit! I was spamming the right click button to freakin block with my shield but no effects at all, would still get stun locked! :mad: That again is a good example of spamming. It should not be do-able.
The bolded part in particulair is why I feel like you need to play more. Because that isn't possible, unless there's a huge lvl or ping difference. With good blocking, timing and footwork, you can always counter attack after you block. Against a long stunning weapon agi heavy backpeddaler, you might have to block 2 or even 3 times, before you get the positioning needed to counter attack. When fighting someone like that you need to be careful, you need to keep in mind he can stun, and that you with a 1h, need to be very close to him to be able to counter attack. And when you're that close you need to be careful you don't bounce.
Feinting with a long heavy weapon does look stupid, and like Bruce mentioned, does seem to defy the laws of physics. But a stamina bar wouldn't fix that. Making weapon weight affect feinting speed could do the trick, but I'm unsure if that's possible, think it's hardcoded.
The edit I completely agree with. Hitting someone and then hitting him again before he can do anything is retarded and should be changed. But that's a problem with the way blunt weapons stun when you hit them and the ungodly amount of speed a warspear can get with high wpf and heirlooming. Again, a stamina bar wouldn't fix it. Good weapon balance and being able to change something that's hardcoded would.
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Long Maul is a very heavy weapon, meaning that it can stun your weapon when you block it. If your weapon gets stunned, you HAVE to block the next attack.If you try to attack instead, and your opponent is attacking also, you will get hit first. If you played for almost 400 hours you should know the basic game mechanics (as long as 390 of those hours arent singleplayer, which also counts into the steam counter).
Also, while backpedalling with long weapon is annoying, you have to deal with it and block every attack until you are in range. If your athletics is low and you are carrying a shield, then it's perfecty possible to just kite you while smashing your face. Deal with it.
And there is nothing like stun-lock in this game, AFAIK. I have never ever seen anyone stun-locked while fighting 1v1. EVER. If you did, that means you have shield with low speed and you didnt click fast enough after recovering from previous stun.
EDIT: Didn't know about the war spear, obviously havent played enough too, and I don't see many ppl carrying one :X
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And there is nothing like stun-lock in this game, AFAIK. I have never ever seen anyone stun-locked while fighting 1v1. EVER. If you did, that means you have shield with low speed and you didnt click fast enough after recovering from previous stun.
Wrong, there is. Certain weapons, like the trip-heirloomed warspear, can hit-stun you long enough to get a second hit in. Even in native this can happen. But yeah, not many people use this method.
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Wow I've never seen a thread like this... wait this is the 50000th
Average spammers can be beaten with a well timed play or a CHAMBER BLOCK
... you know that thing that noone does because it's hard, but the people that can own with it
GOOD-AMAZING spammers are a very different story... incredibly hard to kill especially on my end where I get 1 attack per 3 seconds...
Implementing a game mechanic that would nerf them for properly using an already existing game mechanic is retarded
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Is there a day when we don't get a stamina bar request? Oh yeah cRPG would be so awesome with stamina, you will hit-block-hit-block for ages in slow motion, oh joy :rolleyes:
troll, l2p without spam
ohh yes......native combat speed is so slowwwwwwww ......
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GOOD-AMAZING spammers are a very different story... incredibly hard to kill especially on my end where I get 1 attack per 3 seconds...
Implementing a game mechanic that would nerf them for properly using an already existing game mechanic is retarded
What is retarded is the speed they can swing a long weapon (like the said warspear). It doesn't make sense at all. Same goes for the feinting with huge slow weapons. It is simply a broken game mechanic. This game is based on reality, I'm not saying we need to base everything on realism but this is just too far. While we're at it, why not implement some thunderbolts?
Edit: I'm not saying a stamina bar needs to be added, but something must definitely be changed or fixed.
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The same thing goes for 1h though... difference is 1h player refuse to play without a shield (god forbid we manual block) and therefor attack slower and complain. If you were to go a stacked AGI build with a spammitar and no shield you could spam ppl into a hole
EDIT: I think the real problem at hand here is everyone uses these retarded cookie cutter builds like OMG YOU HAVE TO HAVE xSTR/xAGI or you will be gimped... when faced with unique builds they go OMFGOMFGOMFGOM NERFNERF UNFAIR...
I personally love fighting as and against extremist builds on either end of the spectrum, mainly because they are the ones that present a real challenge
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No stamina bar. You know when you spammed enough. Invisible to user
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Is there a day when we don't get a stamina bar request? Oh yeah cRPG would be so awesome with stamina, you will hit-block-hit-block for ages in slow motion, oh joy
Who would do that? If people could parry, they would not have to spam.
Spam happens because people have no confidence in their defense skill.
In crpg, you can go ranger and carry a polearm for spam. So you can kill the dedicated 2h/polearms with your ranged shit, and then you can outspam the shielders with your polearm.
I mean, I do understand when people cant manuell block, but run around in heavy armor and spam around a huge polearm and 1 hit kill almost everyone is just ridiculous - its funny that people complained about horse charge, a horse, that could be stopped by a pitch fork and couldnt kill a naked guy at full speed.
To put it very simple: a "stamina bar" would be appreciated by everyone who would love to see some "skill" in melee combat, obviously, people whos only "skill" is low ping spam hate that idea.
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Who would do that? If people could parry, they would not have to spam.
Spam happens because people have no confidence in their defense skill.
In crpg, you can go ranger and carry a polearm for spam. So you can kill the dedicated 2h/polearms with your ranged shit, and then you can outspam the shielders with your polearm.
I mean, I do understand when people cant manuell block, but run around in heavy armor and spam around a huge polearm and 1 hit kill almost everyone is just ridiculous - its funny that people complained about horse charge, a horse, that could be stopped by a pitch fork and couldnt kill a naked guy at full speed.
To put it very simple: a "stamina bar" would be appreciated by everyone who would love to see some "skill" in melee combat, obviously, people whos only "skill" is low ping spam hate that idea.
Oh, hush troll, most people that ask for a stamina bar just don't know a thing about melee combat. Hell, most people that play cRPG don't know a thing about melee combat, that's why you see so many spammers, because it works on people that are bad at melee combat.
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I guess I'm not most ppl then. I play dedicated melee. Stamina penalty based on weapon weight would nerf me alot. I'd still like it. I want it so recovering from swings comes slower as stamina drains. That's realistic and would be good for the gameplay.
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I guess I'm not most ppl then. I play dedicated melee. Stamina penalty based on weapon weight would nerf me alot. I'd still like it. I want it so recovering from swings comes slower as stamina drains. That's realistic and would be good for the gameplay.
+1
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Oh, hush troll, most people that ask for a stamina bar just don't know a thing about melee combat. Hell, most people that play cRPG don't know a thing about melee combat, that's why you see so many spammers, because it works on people that are bad at melee combat.
So you admit that it's a problem. Why do you oppose the solution? Maybe you are a spammer yourself? For the umpteenth time, spam is not a problem for good players, the problem is that you can avoid blocking by building a certain character and choosing certain equipment. You will always die against good players, but you will still kill the rest, which is around 70% of the playerbase.
Now if you don't think this is a problem, that's fine. In my eyes, this is a huge problem that can be easily fixed without affecting anyone but those who are causing the problem. Thus, obviously, if you are against a cure without side effects, you must be profiting from the illness. Everyone who is against a stamina system is a spammer at heart. All arguments heard against it so far are laughable at best (it takes away my freedom to decide when to swing, i don't want the game to turn into WoW, stamina system would be impossible to balance, only agi builds would profit, yadda, yadda, yadda).
Face it, you are a spammer.
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<---- Not a spammer
Completely against it
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Thanks for your detailed explanation. Your arguments made me reconsider, and I am now also against a stamina system...not.
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Spam vs 2H isn't a problem, if you can't get out of that situation you need to time yourself better.
The place where spam becomes overly effective is against someone using a shield. Because your swings are considerably slower when using a shield, a 2H spammer can simply barrage a shield user with attacks and usually get away with a kill unless they're unlucky or suffer from bad lag.
The reason 2H vs 2H spam can be countered is both players have very nice swing speed. You can block and work your feet to be in a position to attack pretty easily. For a shield user you basically can't move until luck shines on you because the attacks come so quickly they hit before you can put the shield down and swing back.
Some would argue that 2H should be good against shield users, but I disagree. Someone with a shield should be able to push into and overwhelm anyone with any 2H. Picture the scenario in reality, unless the 2H user has a range advantage there should be very few options for fighting back.
But instead we have people bonking shields endlessly with 8ft long swords somehow while they have no space to swing. IMO 2H vs. Shield in Warband is very backwards.
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I feel like I'm trolling at this point but....
If you are using a shield entirely for personal use that is called being lazy.
If you are using a shield to defend DPS class teammates so they can effective hit and return to ur nurturing arms you are doing it correctly
If you want a massive K/d you aren't playing the right class. This isn't always true as there are players that are sword and board that are exceptional killers
Dan_ATS rapes my face and has time to doodle in MSpaint about it without thinking twice. But that is skill playing as the catalyst of his win.
In short, you bad - others good
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There problem isn't the spam attitude (dying by a player repeatedly attacking in the same way without feints or anything means you still need to learn, except in the following case), it's the pure lightning speed you can get by building your character and equipment correctly, making you able to attack, be blocked then attack and be faster to hit than your opponent.
Any player with this kind of setup can do decent k/d.
Now give that to "good" players, using feints, footwork, lolstab, playing with reach... and you get players that will be called "spammers" with a reason.
A good and simple solution for the "spam" problem is reducing the speed bonus given by each point of agility. Currently each agility point gives you 0.5% more speed, and that a lot : 10% more speed at agi 20. I don't know exactly how it works so it's maybe even done after the wpp, so increasing the swing speed much more than a simple +0.5% per point to your weapon's speed rating. With the patch and the upkeep, strenght was finally nerfed to death and now everyone stacks agility after having reached a few requirements (funnily, archers have more strenght than meleers now, because they need much PD and benefit from additional points). So this change could also balance things a bit between str and agi.
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I feel like I'm trolling at this point but....
If you are using a shield entirely for personal use that is called being lazy.
If you are using a shield to defend DPS class teammates so they can effective hit and return to ur nurturing arms you are doing it correctly
If you want a massive K/d you aren't playing the right class. This isn't always true as there are players that are sword and board that are exceptional killers
Dan_ATS rapes my face and has time to doodle in MSpaint about it without thinking twice. But that is skill playing as the catalyst of his win.
In short, you bad - others good
If you've seen me play you know I never get massive k/d. I'm lucky to break even and I don't really mind it.
I use a shield and awlpike to poke people. Frankly I suck at manual blocking and I don't feel like being an arrow/throwing axe magnet when I'm just starting in the mod.
I don't complain about others doing better or me being shitty, I just find it odd that somebody with a massive weapon can attack with such frequency that I can barely move my fighting axe in time to strike back.
In Native single player, being able to constantly swing a heavy weapon over your head to drop legions of bodies in battle alone is fine, but in a MP mod that at least attempts a small level of realism I'd expect to see some kind of change to those superhuman abilities.
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Wouldnt nerfing the speed bonus from agi simply nerf everyone all across the board? seriously, you need a better solution than that.
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So you admit that it's a problem. Why do you oppose the solution? Maybe you are a spammer yourself? For the umpteenth time, spam is not a problem for good players, the problem is that you can avoid blocking by building a certain character and choosing certain equipment. You will always die against good players, but you will still kill the rest, which is around 70% of the playerbase.
Now if you don't think this is a problem, that's fine. In my eyes, this is a huge problem that can be easily fixed without affecting anyone but those who are causing the problem. Thus, obviously, if you are against a cure without side effects, you must be profiting from the illness. Everyone who is against a stamina system is a spammer at heart. All arguments heard against it so far are laughable at best (it takes away my freedom to decide when to swing, i don't want the game to turn into WoW, stamina system would be impossible to balance, only agi builds would profit, yadda, yadda, yadda).
Face it, you are a spammer.
My post have been about how it's easy to counter spam, no where did I say it didn't work on the general populace. I just think there are beter ways to fix the problem a major overhaul to the entire system. The system is fine, it's just that alot of people have problems dealing with the high speeds that some builds can do. If you want to fix that problem nerf the high speeds, it won't affect anyone but the people that are the problem.
Oh and yes, I do use spam, just like I use blocking, chambering, positioning and timing. Come fight me on the duel server sometime, I'm usually on as crazy_corvin or crazy_christo.
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Why should I feel bad for saying my opinion? O.O'' Are you fascist?
Anyway, you should be the one feeling bad cuz "good spammers" will just spam you until you fuck up a block or 2 and kill you! I know how to block man, I'm no noob thank you very much! "Good spammers" will just not give you time to counter so what are you gonna do? Block block block block -oh shit got hit- block block block -oh shit got hit- etc etc etc... until they kill you if nobody comes to help you back stab him... You can't perfectly block all the hits of a real spammer! Some are surely gonna hit you! Man when you can't even land a hit/counter cuz of retarded game mecanism it's not my "lack of blocking skills" that needs to be fixed but a simple system that would make spamming impossible!
I block once, then I attack. They must block me or they will die. I have never found someone in the current release of cRPG who could swing a second time faster than I could counter attack with my 95 speed 1H axe and huscarl shield. Balbaroth, Dan, Goretooth, Chuck Norris, Optimus Prime and Mohammad Ali are all too slow for my lousy level 25 character. In previous versions people could literally spam through your counter-attacks. cRPG was broken and that is why I refused to play until recently. I still hate cRPG more than everyone else does, but spam is not a problem. Italic glyphs are not a problem either. I will note, however, that some weapons can be spammed through if you do not have much WPF. All of those weapons are utility weapons like the pike and sledgehammer, so that's fine.
I'm level 26 (I leveled up in the previous paragraph), use a huscarl shield with 5 points into shields, and I only have 133 WPF in 1H weapons. Danny told me he has 6 shield and Balby said he has 5. They have also heirloomed weapons and I don't. And I don't get ever outspammed not even by spammatars and triple heirloomed katanas. In fact, the only annoying thing about a katana spammer is that they run so fast. Their ability to "spam" makes them a little trickier to manual block, but it's only their ability to practically sprint backwards that annoys me.
The place where spam becomes overly effective is against someone using a shield. Because your swings are considerably slower when using a shield, a 2H spammer can simply barrage a shield user with attacks and usually get away with a kill unless they're unlucky or suffer from bad lag.
False. Your swings are not slower when using a shield. Did no one here play Native? Shields do NOT slow your swing speed. This has been proven. Shields have a slight delay between when you release block and when you may start to swing. Higher shield skill reduces this delay. This means blocking with a shield delays your immediate ability to attack and makes feinting with a shield less effective. Your actual swing speed, however, is unaffected. The delay is also never enough to keep you from counter-attacking assuming you actually have some points into shields and 1H weapons.
Oh, hush troll, most people that ask for a stamina bar just don't know a thing about melee combat. Hell, most people that play cRPG don't know a thing about melee combat, that's why you see so many spammers, because it works on people that are bad at melee combat.
Correct. 8-)
the problem is that you can avoid blocking by building a certain character and choosing certain equipment
Incorrect. It used to be this way back when cRPG sucked and was broken. It is not that way anymore. It still kind of sucks though.
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The system is fine, it's just that alot of people have problems dealing with the high speeds that some builds can do.
True, but I don't find this to be a particular problem postpatch... sure when you meet someone like Khorin, you have to mentally prepare yourself to deal with the off-the chart movement and attack speed (thankfully ninjas are recognizable, heh), but the good bit about fighting such a high agi build is that with a balanced 18/18 all you need is one good hit and he's dead, and my ironflesh-enriched mailed char can take 2-3, so you're allowed to make a mistake, or even two sometimes.
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It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why. You all explain how unnecessary it is and how there are better ways to fix the problem (those that admit it), but i don't really see any arguments against it. On the other hand, we have many players who think it might be a good idea, so why do you oppose this, if it won't affect you? Just because you are all conservative egomaniacs (get off my lawn)?
BTW: I know you, Crazy_Christo, you are an excellent blocker. I wish I was half as good. Still I have no problems with regular spammers. But I also see problems that don't affect me personally. Crazy, I know, why should i care?
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It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why. You all explain how unnecessary it is and how there are better ways to fix the problem (those that admit it), but i don't really see any arguments against it. On the other hand, we have many players who think it might be a good idea, so why do you oppose this, if it won't affect you? Just because you are all conservative egomaniacs (get off my lawn)?
BTW: I know you, Crazy_Christo, you are an excellent blocker. I wish I was half as good. Still I have no problems with regular spammers. But I also see problems that don't affect me personally. Crazy, I know, why should i care?
arguments against:
-there are easier and beter ways of reducing spam.
-would require a complete overhaul, more rebalacing of stats, in other words lots of work for the devs.
-if done wrong would completely ruin the combat system.
-if done right could stil completely change a perfectly good combat system.
The fact that there are easier and beter ways of fixing the problem, ways that don't potentially screw everything up, is enough to not want a stamina bar. Why a complicated solution when there are easier ones?
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My main opposition to a stamina system is the idea that stamina could prevent you from blocking. The "perfect defense" mechanic in Warband gives it a very high skill ceiling and allows for tense, extended fights between good players.
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False. Your swings are not slower when using a shield. Did no one here play Native? Shields do NOT slow your swing speed. This has been proven. Shields have a slight delay between when you release block and when you may start to swing. Higher shield skill reduces this delay. This means blocking with a shield delays your immediate ability to attack and makes feinting with a shield less effective. Your actual swing speed, however, is unaffected. The delay is also never enough to keep you from counter-attacking assuming you actually have some points into shields and 1H weapons
So I'm wrong about the swing speed being slower, but there is still a delay when you block a hit. You say tomato...
Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage. Do I need 200 skill?
And before more L2P remarks are thrown around, even I can pick up a 2H and overwhelm people. And this is with no points in it at all. The amount of actual "skill" required for a 2H user to take out someone with a shield is very lopsided. This might be why so many people carry greatswords while the good players who fight with shields are rare.
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It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why.
Because it's either going to break melee in general (for instance, not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people), going to introduce erm unintended consequences depending on what all falls within the stamina system, for instance running, etc), while not fixing any real or percieved problems.
For instance, what you mostly classify as spam are, in a single fight, 2-3 swings, since that's enough to kill someone who doesn't block. So, in order to fix that, you'd have to do, what, make someone swing and take a breather then? Doesn't make sense, and would really break combat.
Feinting? Ok, if you made feinting take stamina, you do solve the annoying "lolfeintspam" (well, personally I'm not bothered by it, since I like long weapons so people don't get to do that on me, but it is generally annoying and a pain to watch), but it doesn't solve the funny feinting speed of long and heavy weapons (which, unlike attacking which is generally fine, seems just physically impossible).
I just don't see the :point:. The only people who get purely spammed are turtling shielders, people who don't counterattack, peasants and wooden structures. And I see potential bad side-effects.
If you wanted to discuss specific balance issues with xyz stat/weapon/mechanic, it'd make more sense then proposing a stamina system to stop "spam".
Also, if you want to propose a mechanic to combat something which is very subjective (eg, "spam"), you have to precisely describe what exactly is spam and how do you propose it should work.
Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage. Do I need 200 skill?
Tbh, it's much easier to "screw up" with a shield+1h vs a 2h/polearmer then it is to screw up with a 2h/polearm, in my experience. To fight with a 1h/shield takes a different set of skills then to fight with a 2h weapon.
That said, I find it :easier: to do reasonably well with a 2h/polearm in melee at lower levels. On the other hand I only really liked shield+1h when I reached levels 26-30 when I played it, before that it was quite a pain. Then scoring kills was fairly easy (of course str build and heirloomed weapon really helped to cover the typical 1h damage deficiency) in the thick of melee. On the other hand, with a polearm/2h I really prefer hanging around in the sidelines instead of leading the charge.
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Continuing my input here...
Do you really think that stamina would only effect attacking anyway? If you are blocking with a shield under the same pretense of realism you would be tired out from the abusive force against your shield.
Also again if you have a sword and shield why aren't you playing defensively to assist ur offensive players? This is a team game if you have forgotten and sword and board is a very team oriented build
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Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage.
Don't know why you're having trouble, to be honest. The game gets pretty laggy with 100 people though, and lag can break anything. Maybe you should meet someone on duel servers for both cRPG and Native and see how the spam feels in both mods. Fraps it and post too.
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Hmm. I don't really understand all the talk about being spammed as a shielder. When I play on my shielder, the issue is never weapon speed. It's footwork. I use a short weapon and can be outranged. Weapon speed isn't the issue at all. When it comes to nonstop attacks, I only usually have issues if the person has enough athletics to keep away from my effective range most of the time. Admittedly, that can be a bit of a problem since my build only has 5ish athletics currently. Either way if you judge the timing and positioning well enough, you can always find an opportunity to attack back. Whether or not you'll kill him... That's a different story. The only reason I don't play my shielder more than my main is that I don't enjoy playing with shields. I enjoy the feeling of getting better at manual blocking and polearms have some of my favorite weapons (Primarily the poke types. Pike, Awlpike, etc.).
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Don't know why you're having trouble, to be honest. The game gets pretty laggy with 100 people though, and lag can break anything. Maybe you should meet someone on duel servers for both cRPG and Native and see how the spam feels in both mods. Fraps it and post too.
It's not a game breaking issue for me, though. I do fairly well against people when I use sword + board unless it's somebody who just can't take a break on mouse 1. While yes it is annoying to basically be stuck with the shield up, if it's anyone else I can almost always find a way to get at least one hit in.
TBH I think my problem is I don't focus enough on just fighting with sword + board. I've spent most of my time using spears and pikes with the shield, and everyone knows how easy that is to block.
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arguments against:
-there are easier and beter ways of reducing spam.
-would require a complete overhaul, more rebalacing of stats, in other words lots of work for the devs.
-if done wrong would completely ruin the combat system.
-if done right could stil completely change a perfectly good combat system.
The fact that there are easier and beter ways of fixing the problem, ways that don't potentially screw everything up, is enough to not want a stamina bar. Why a complicated solution when there are easier ones?
1. Elaborate
2. True. So what? I'm not saying DO IT NAO, I'm just saying I think this would be the best solution. Maybe the effort needed is too high, let the devs decide.
3. True. So what? Every major balance change has the potential to ruin everything. Just do it right.
4. True. It needs change, that's why the suggestion comes up times and times again.
My main opposition to a stamina system is the idea that stamina could prevent you from blocking. The "perfect defense" mechanic in Warband gives it a very high skill ceiling and allows for tense, extended fights between good players.
It could. Then people would complain and it would be rebalanced. That's how things work. Don't oppose change because it could change things, that's the whole idea of change.
Because it's either going to break melee in general (for instance, not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people), going to introduce erm unintended consequences depending on what all falls within the stamina system, for instance running, etc), while not fixing any real or percieved problems.
That the problems are real has already been established. You can have a different opinion, but then I don't understand why you repeat yourself. Now that it would break melee in general is bullshit, on what authority do you make this prophecy? Not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people? That's spam. Deal with one dude, block some, deal with the next. If you really think you can just swing constantly to deal with multiple people, you are a spammer par excellence and I understand why you oppose the suggestion.
For instance, what you mostly classify as spam are, in a single fight, 2-3 swings, since that's enough to kill someone who doesn't block. So, in order to fix that, you'd have to do, what, make someone swing and take a breather then? Doesn't make sense, and would really break combat.
Where exactly did you find this classification? What i want to stop is an exploited build with a long fast weapon that erratically runs over the battlefield constantly swinging left and right and climbing to the top of the scoreboard. Have you ever tried the long hafted blade? With the right build, you can spam that thing so fast that people who get hit can not even recover from the stun to block.
Feinting? Ok, if you made feinting take stamina, you do solve the annoying "lolfeintspam" (well, personally I'm not bothered by it, since I like long weapons so people don't get to do that on me, but it is generally annoying and a pain to watch), but it doesn't solve the funny feinting speed of long and heavy weapons (which, unlike attacking which is generally fine, seems just physically impossible).
I'm not sure about feinting.
I just don't see the :point:. The only people who get purely spammed are turtling shielders, people who don't counterattack, peasants and wooden structures. And I see potential bad side-effects.
If you wanted to discuss specific balance issues with xyz stat/weapon/mechanic, it'd make more sense then proposing a stamina system to stop "spam".
Also, if you want to propose a mechanic to combat something which is very subjective (eg, "spam"), you have to precisely describe what exactly is spam and how do you propose it should work.
Tbh, it's much easier to "screw up" with a shield+1h vs a 2h/polearmer then it is to screw up with a 2h/polearm, in my experience. To fight with a 1h/shield takes a different set of skills then to fight with a 2h weapon.
That said, I find it :easier: to do reasonably well with a 2h/polearm in melee at lower levels. On the other hand I only really liked shield+1h when I reached levels 26-30 when I played it, before that it was quite a pain. Then scoring kills was fairly easy (of course str build and heirloomed weapon really helped to cover the typical 1h damage deficiency) in the thick of melee. On the other hand, with a polearm/2h I really prefer hanging around in the sidelines instead of leading the charge.
What I'm aiming for with this system is that everyone will be forced to block some strikes. That's just not the case now. I constanly observe people when I'm dead who just never block, but still do good in the ranking. How can this be? I know why, but I let you find the answer yourself.
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A stamina bar which would depend about strength of the character would be excellent.
With this can be that the strength would serve has something... actualy strength is realy useless :|
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What I'm aiming for with this system is that everyone will be forced to block some strikes.
Which is honestly stupid/unrealistic/whatever you will. If someone runs around with a chambered overhead of his great maul, I'm supposed to, wait, not swing at him and kill him but try some blocking first? Why? To give him a +1 kill?
Everyone IS forced to block strikes unless he wishes to die when the opponent is aware of him, is in range of his weapon, and has successfully blocked (or has attacked first), else he will get hit.
This really does damn well hold true in postpatch crpg.
That's just not the case now. I constanly observe people when I'm dead who just never block, but still do good in the ranking. How can this be? I know why, but I let you find the answer yourself.
I'll answer it; because it works on people who don't block either. When two people who don't block meet, the one with better timing and longer weapon gets the first hit. A competent player who can block well also isn't going to block first if he can hit first, because combat is about hitting and disabling the other guy, not blocking. You block to defend yourself, you attack to kill people.
Your idea would, by the way, transform the game into crush through block weapon mass poliferaton. Why? If you're a good blocker, you need to block only a few times with your system to prevent the other guy from swinging repeatedly, and once that happens, wham overhead and he's dead. That falls under "breaking melee combat", for instance.
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1. Elaborate
2. True. So what? I'm not saying DO IT NAO, I'm just saying I think this would be the best solution. Maybe the effort needed is too high, let the devs decide.
3. True. So what? Every major balance change has the potential to ruin everything. Just do it right.
4. True. It needs change, that's why the suggestion comes up times and times again.
1. nerf high speed builds, there done, no need for a complete overhaul while fixing the problem.
2. On what do you base that it would be the best solution? Give me a single argument why stamina would be beter than just nerfing high speed builds.
3. So what? So there are easier and beter solutions.
4. It doesn't need change, the system is fine, this has been said countless times, the problem is simply that high speed spam is too effective against noobs.
In the end this is al moot anyway. The devs aren't going to implement a stamina bar, because the devs have been playing m&b long enough to know that spam is only a problem for new players. So to everyone who dies to spam: go play on the duel server. Find who ever has the best ratio on there and duel him until you don't suck.
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Look I hate getting stun locked from polearms as much as the next guy, but the fact that it is the rock to my scissors in this game doesn't mean i should call nerf at every turn.
so here goes my attempt at a diagram explaining this (hopefully it doesnt get fucked up)
((((((((Shields)))))))) Scissors
/\ \
/ \
/ _\|
Rock((2h\polearms)))<-------------(((Ranged))) PAPER
And with that... end of discussion
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This was never a QQ post about being spammed.
This was a suggestion post about possibly having a stamina bar put in the mod.
I felt it would add a realism to the game as well as something else to consider while gearing your character (armor and weopon weight), choosing your strength in your build, and planning your attacks, etc.
Becoming stuck on one notion of the suggestion - be it a cry for help against spam attacks? - C'mon! It's a stamina bar and everything that would go along with it. Nothing more nothing less. It doesn't take a genius to understand the reasoning behind one. It also doesn't take a genius to read a post and then offer subjective criticism on said post. But highlighting only certain aspects and then snowballing a 5 page argument over spam?
Stamina - You either like it or you don't.
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Stamina would be perhaps a good idea, but way to complicated to apply into the game and way to complicated for spammers to cope with.
Btw nerfing kind off never completly solve the problems unless u nerf everything to an extent where u reach a perfect balance. If u don't, after some time u got to power up Agi builds again or nerf STR build and so on.
Anyone noticed how every Stamina post is followed by 'potions' 'stuns' etc jokes?? well, yeah it makes u a little bit funnier, but hows that related to stamina?? potions- WOW/L2 stamina - real life???
However im not syaing that cRPG would be better with stamina bar, no one rly knows that, but it would be different for sure.
The mian advantage of stamina bar that I see would be rised importance of STR as now it is actualy more useless than ever before. STR gives u nothing rly, especcialy in the new cRPG as plates are not wortwhile to have anymore. higher dmg??? meh, some weapons have enough of it, more HP?? meh it makes u survive 3 hits instead of 2 in the best scenario. So summarising: DMG(the dmg that STR gives u),HP,Armor requirement - all useless in current cRPG.
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lol, "A stamina bar would ruin the game". Does that even make sense :?:. Why, why would it ruin the game? i don't understand where any of those people are coming from. Its a great idea it should have been included ages ago. The topic comes up everyday because we fuckin need it.
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The idea of a stamina bar doesnt even fit with everything else the game already has going on.
IE: high wpf where you want it, stacking str and agi where you want them, putting weapon points into athletics
if you had a stamina bar that was affected by these things, do you really think it would stop spamming?
most of the complaints on this board are that noobs get pwned by spammers who dont have to stop swinging.
if you factor all of the above into a stamina bar, those same noobs are going to get their faces pwned even harder. especially because now they would have no way to fight back against a higher level opponent.
higher athletics = more stamina.
higher str = more stamina.
so lowbie characters would be able to block once or twice before having their faces destroyed by said instrument because they are now unable to block thanks to your stamina bar, while they high level guys just swing away with all the points they have invested.
good idea.
as it stands now those same lowbies can last for quite some time and even come out on top if they have even a modicum of skill in manual blocking.
this game is fun because of all the diversity of character builds. just take a look at the http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html) board and you will see so many different things going on there. the people who built to spam, can also get raped by throwers and people with better range/footwork. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I have died with a javelin in my forhead right as I was about to chop some poor bastard in half.
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Which is honestly stupid/unrealistic/whatever you will. If someone runs around with a chambered overhead of his great maul, I'm supposed to, wait, not swing at him and kill him but try some blocking first? Why? To give him a +1 kill?
What made you think that? The stamina system would not stop you from swinging first. It wouldn't even stop you from slashing 2-3 times, but then you'd have to back off and catch your breath again, or your next swing might be slower than his. I don't think it would drop so fast that maulers would only need to block 3 strikes, because they are REALLY slow. For them, maybe after 5 blocks they could get faster than you, not before.
Everyone IS forced to block strikes unless he wishes to die when the opponent is aware of him, is in range of his weapon, and has successfully blocked (or has attacked first), else he will get hit.
This really does damn well hold true in postpatch crpg.
I'll answer it; because it works on people who don't block either. When two people who don't block meet, the one with better timing and longer weapon gets the first hit. A competent player who can block well also isn't going to block first if he can hit first, because combat is about hitting and disabling the other guy, not blocking. You block to defend yourself, you attack to kill people.
I'm going to try and prove you wrong with my next build. In my opinion, it's possible to build a char with a long weapon that can spam non-shielders so they can't hit back. And against shielders, you equip a shieldbreaker with this build and need to block maybe 3 times, then their shield is gone and you can continue the spam. I think this is true because I have observed it many times while spectating other players when I was dead.
Your idea would, by the way, transform the game into crush through block weapon mass poliferaton. Why? If you're a good blocker, you need to block only a few times with your system to prevent the other guy from swinging repeatedly, and once that happens, wham overhead and he's dead. That falls under "breaking melee combat", for instance.
As I was saying before, he'll probably have to block 5 times. If he can successfully block you 5 times in a row and you don't manage to back off in this time, he deserves to kill you in my opinion. If crushthrough had to block 5 times right now, there would be now crushthrough players at all. But they only have to block one or two strikes, because combat is much more complex than you try to display it here.
1. nerf high speed builds, there done, no need for a complete overhaul while fixing the problem.
2. On what do you base that it would be the best solution? Give me a single argument why stamina would be beter than just nerfing high speed builds.
3. So what? So there are easier and beter solutions.
4. It doesn't need change, the system is fine, this has been said countless times, the problem is simply that high speed spam is too effective against noobs.
In the end this is al moot anyway. The devs aren't going to implement a stamina bar, because the devs have been playing m&b long enough to know that spam is only a problem for new players. So to everyone who dies to spam: go play on the duel server. Find who ever has the best ratio on there and duel him until you don't suck.
1. Hollow words. Nerf high speed builds how?
2. It is the best solution, because it would fix the problem and not affect anyone else. Also, as I have already posted in other stamina threads, it would introduce a chance to get rid of the hard requirements on equipment. But this is probably too visionary for you, so I won't elaborate further.
3. Yeah, you constantly repeat that while failing to explain even a single one of those supposedly existing multiple better solutions.
4. This is nothing but your opinion. In my opinion, a system that allows to replace skill with a certain character build is broken and needs to be fixed.
Your suggestions for new players are very good, but maybe in the wrong place here.
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most of the complaints on this board are that noobs get pwned by spammers who dont have to stop swinging.
if you factor all of the above into a stamina bar, those same noobs are going to get their faces pwned even harder.
I guess u havent meet an agi build yet. Its not about skill anymore, even with perfect timing ur counter wont even reach the target cose u get slashed through the face. Agi build with hafted balde can oustpam u even if ur timing is perfect, and he kills u in 3 hits depsite he has almost no STR the dmg is fair cose hafted blade has quite a lot of it already. Check out how agi spam build is owning everything else now, spectate/duel one of them and u will see wht im talking about, they kill the whole groups slashin with such speed that most players cant react. As far as I saw they only die being outnumbered, in 1vs1 they always win unless they fail at some point. In order to fix that something got ot be nerfed, AGI,wpf or weapon's requriements or dmg, the point is, as I said before nerfing will allways underpower some players and overpower others, thats why stamina bar may be a good way of dealing with huge weapons/agi spam problem. And besides u can't denny the fact that STR is pretty useless at the momment.
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I guess u havent meet an agi build yet. Its not about skill anymore, even with perfect timing ur counter wont even reach the target cose u get slashed through the face. Agi build with hafted balde can oustpam u even if ur timing is perfect, and he kills u in 3 hits depsite he has almost no STR the dmg is fair cose hafted blade has quite a lot of it already. Check out how agi spam build is owning everything else now, spectate/duel one of them and u will see wht im talking about, they kill the whole groups slashin with such speed that most players cant react. As far as I saw they only die being outnumbered, in 1vs1 they always win unless they fail at some point. In order to fix that something got ot be nerfed, AGI,wpf or weapon's requriements or dmg, the point is, as I said before nerfing will allways underpower some players and overpower others, thats why stamina bar may be a good way of dealing with huge weapons/agi spam problem. And besides u can't denny the fact that STR is pretty useless at the momment.
I fight high agi all the time.
and the above described is a polearm problem with balance. NOT a build issue.
Do you guys not seem to understand that a stamina bar would scew over EVERYONE. not just the classes you are all on here whining and pointing to as the problem children.
You think it's bad now? a 2h weap takes at most 2 hits to kill someone, and most 1Hers take 3-5 if you have any armor at all. Try getting those 3-5 hits in on me while also wasting your stamina to block. the people who only need to hit ONCE will rule a stamina based system.
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just saw 1h/shield agi spam doing exactly the same thing.
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What made you think that? The stamina system would not stop you from swinging first. It wouldn't even stop you from slashing 2-3 times, but then you'd have to back off and catch your breath again, or your next swing might be slower than his. I don't think it would drop so fast that maulers would only need to block 3 strikes, because they are REALLY slow. For them, maybe after 5 blocks they could get faster than you, not before.
He doesn't need to be "faster then you" - just fast enough not to get spammed. The game allows you to counterattack with a much slower weapon. For instance, with a balanced 18/18 char, I can basically always counterattack with a GLB (which is really slow, in addition to being unbalanced and feeling slower then eg a long voulge which is slower on paper - don't understand why), a long voulge and other 80-ish speed weapons. However, with the long maul - which is 70ish speed - I can get spammed, and can't counterattack every time vs much faster weapons. Which is balanced, of course, since he also can't block me. (which answers the question why barmace isn't balanced - it can maintain a block-attack rythm vs everyone).
A few hits dropping your speed, and you can no longer attempt to "outspam", which leads to your inevitable death vs a weapon which isn't blockable. It's even worse when you consider a barmace or such which actually can maintain block-attack-block... and trying to spam even a str guy with a heirloomed (hence slower, but more likely to crush through block) barmace is very hard without a stamina bar.
I'm going to try and prove you wrong with my next build. In my opinion, it's possible to build a char with a long weapon that can spam non-shielders so they can't hit back. And against shielders, you equip a shieldbreaker with this build and need to block maybe 3 times, then their shield is gone and you can continue the spam. I think this is true because I have observed it many times while spectating other players when I was dead.
And from fighting ninjas with their masterwork katanas and 25+ agi builds I can tell you it's not true, and you can maintain block-attack-block vs them as well. Of course, sometimes they get you by chambering, but that isn't spam (unless, of course, it happened by luck). Actually I have less fear fighting a ninja then a normal balanced character, because I know I can survive about 2-3 katana hits, and they're dead in exactly one hit in the face with my masterwork glaive. Of course, you have to mentally prepare for the speed.
But if you can maintain block-attack-block vs someone with a masterwork katana and >25 agi, what build on earth are you planning? A 3 str long dagger one? I can counterattack vs nokeyboard who has I think a hafted blade and ~25-ish agi - except I have to be careful and do it immediately.
If someone blocks you and is immediately in range of his weapon (there's various footwork trickery you can do, of course), you have to block or you will get hit.
The "problem" of spam are people who don't block, or don't counterattack properly. Dead men don't swing.
(btw, of course, for sake of simplicity I'm ignoring chamber blocking, which isn't spam. I'm also ignoring various range tricks which look like spam but are not.)
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It's just to not let players manual block like 15 hits in a row or swing a polearms 10 times without getting tired.
stoped reading there.
edit:that was page one
edit2:which you can see as its linked...
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I'm going to try and prove you wrong with my next build. In my opinion, it's possible to build a char with a long weapon that can spam non-shielders so they can't hit back. And against shielders, you equip a shieldbreaker with this build and need to block maybe 3 times, then their shield is gone and you can continue the spam. I think this is true because I have observed it many times while spectating other players when I was dead.
1. Hollow words. Nerf high speed builds how?
2. It is the best solution, because it would fix the problem and not affect anyone else. Also, as I have already posted in other stamina threads, it would introduce a chance to get rid of the hard requirements on equipment. But this is probably too visionary for you, so I won't elaborate further.
3. Yeah, you constantly repeat that while failing to explain even a single one of those supposedly existing multiple better solutions.
4. This is nothing but your opinion. In my opinion, a system that allows to replace skill with a certain character build is broken and needs to be fixed.
I've dueled high agi polearm spammers both with my 1h (lvl24, 15str/16agi, 108 wpf, military cleaver, heavy board shield, medium armour) and my high level pure 2h. I don't have a problem with beating them. I don't have a problem with attacking after I block either, it's all about positioning and timing. The basic rhythm of I attack, he blocks, he attacks, I block, holds true regardless of builds, only being shifted by positioning, timing and very slow (crushthrough) weapons. Oh and ping, server lag and the occiasonal glitch/bug. Anybody who says otherwise needs to practice more.
1. Make the bonuses from agi scale instead of being lineair.
2. A stamina system would affect everyone and being a completely new idea could create countless other problems. Sorry, I don't feel like waiting 4 months before the stamina system is finally balanced, not when we have a perfectly good system. And I highly disagree with the "best solution". There are easier and beter ways of doing it.
3. Nerf high agi, nerf high wpf, change the wpf scaling of polearm weapons (the main offenders), etc etc. I'm not going to bother explaining them all, why the hell should I, I'm not a balancer, I'll leave that up to urist and whoever else does it.
4. Bullshit, the system is fine. Multiple people have attested to this and I know from personal experience. The problem is and has always been player skill. When you make that build you mentioned, send me a pm and I'll come and hand your ass to you on the duel server. Oh and your opinion is just as worthless as mine. Don't complain about me stating my opinion and then do it yourself.
Now lets turn this around.
Arguments for a stamina system:
-realism.
-counter spam.
-take away requirements on weapons to allow wider use.
-Realism. Is and always has been a stupid reason. Realism is the last of a long list of criteria that a proposed change needs to adhear to. Thing like: is it needed, is it practical, would it solve the problem etc. Then there's the question of whether or not a professional soldier, hyped on adrenaline would even feel fatigue after a mere 5 minutes of fighting.
-counter spam. Is a player problem, not a system problem. Don't change the system to deal with something that has nothing to do with the system.
-take away requirements on weapons to allow wider use. This could be interesting, not sure if it's needed, and again could be done without changing the system. For instance having a soft requirement, if you're under that you get a penalty to wpf.
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1. Make the bonuses from agi scale instead of being linear.
2. A stamina system would affect everyone and being a completely new idea could create countless other problems. Sorry, I don't feel like waiting 4 months before the stamina system is finally balanced, not when we have a perfectly good system. And I highly disagree with the "best solution". There are easier and beter ways of doing it.
3. Nerf high agi, nerf high wpf, change the wpf scaling of polearm weapons (the main offenders), etc etc. I'm not going to bother explaining them all, why the hell should I, I'm not a balancer, I'll leave that up to urist and whoever else does it.
Good stuff! strength has already been nerfed, this would help bring the agi more in line. scaling the agi in its effects like the wpf scales for point cost is perfect. You are still going to have high agi builds, but the rewards would be incrementally smaller.
the one drawback to this result would be seeing a lot more players dedicate their points to str once they hit the agi glass ceiling instead. that means more high agi high hitpoint mofo's, making the spammers harder to kill. hah. thats irony.
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-Realism. Is and always has been a stupid reason. Realism is the last of a long list of criteria that a proposed change needs to adhear to. Thing like: is it needed, is it practical, would it solve the problem etc. Then there's the question of whether or not a professional soldier, hyped on adrenaline would even feel fatigue after a mere 5 minutes of fighting.
Not to mention what is traditionally called spam is typically merely a few swings, and not 5 minutes of swinging your weapon. Probably less then a minute. Most fights are over in just a few swings. To begin swinging noticeably slower after a few swings would be unrealistic.
-counter spam. Is a player problem, not a system problem. Don't change the system to deal with something that has nothing to do with the system.
Agreed.
-take away requirements on weapons to allow wider use. This could be interesting, not sure if it's needed, and again could be done without changing the system. For instance having a soft requirement, if you're under that you get a penalty to wpf.
Tbh, I think requirements on some weapons, particularly long ones, should be raised. It makes sense, and balances out str vs agi a bit better.
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Oh yeah I forgot about this idea...
Instead of a stamina bar that nerfs everyone across the board, why not make weapon str requirements higher.
The Crushthrough heavy ass weapons would be in the 25-36 range
1h would be super light and that would be what the agi stackers could use
everything else would fall to the inbetween builds
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Blah Blah Blah STamina bar needed - hands down. I think we proved that.
Base it off 2/3 STR and 1/3 AGI and we have ourselves a gamebreaker. Make it happen.
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I think we proved that.
I think we firmly disputed that we need one.
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Think they'll even implement it? It's probably a big deal really. Maybe they don't know how? Cause if they did I'd imagine it would be there.
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The stamina bar is a fine idea.
The problem is not the shittyness of the stamina bar, but the shittyness of a multitude of other parts of the game, such that sticking a stamina bar in would require vast alterations. Is it possible? Yes.
I hate the weapon speeds in this game, and I also hate the seemingly random applications of knockdown and crushthrough to some weapons, but not to others. I have suggested that all weapons have crushthrough and knockdown with the probability of success being based on weight and str of attacking and defending weapons. Obviously most weapons would have miniscule chances of success, whilst others in the right circumstances would have high chances (Great long bardiche against club). A stamina bar, affected especially by weapon weight, is yet another way to make it work and be "balanced," whatever that even means.
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The reason it will never be implemented is the balance. It would take quite alot of tweaking to get it right. When it would first be added it would be impalanced and the crying on the forums would be mental. Even some people who support the idea would turn against it.
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...., and I also hate the seemingly random applications of knockdown and crushthrough to some weapons, but not to others. I have suggested that all weapons have crushthrough and knockdown with the probability of success being based on weight and str of attacking and defending weapons. Obviously most weapons would have miniscule chances of success, ......
Thats not actually far off of reality. In most cases, the 2H weapons in this game werent used for cut dmg at all in RL. The Flamberge, in particular and the claymores werent even kept sharp. those swords were designed to crush shield formations and men in armor using the sheer length and fulcrum effect that the sword provided. Others, like the Nodachi were intended as anti-calvary/spear weapons.
but from a game standpoint, I think the suggestion is silly. Crushthrough is a big problem in most cases (notably the bar mace.... which is really fun to use, but not to get beat down with) and takes a few of the classes right out of the game in terms of balance. A stamina bar wouldnt actually address ANY of the current problems with balance, it would only add a completely new layer of complexity allowing an even further group of elite weapons to stand out from the rest.
Right now the game is pretty diverse. Adding more strictures would effectively streamline the way players build towards the end game.
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+1 for Stamina Bar
It would actually force people to think during game play.
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Why are people still complaining about spammers and asking for stamina bar? That's SO 2010... I've played a 24 agi katana spammer and good people can still get hits in with foot work and timing. Bad people die. Spamming is useful for clearing out all the crappy fighters so you can have a good duel with a good fighter. The good fighters who can counter spamming aren't just agi heavy players. A lot is in the footwork. Please don't add a stamina or mana bar, and no magic spells or kill 10 Goretooth quests.
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I don't want a stamina bar for spammers, I want a stamina bar because it would make the game more interesting.
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@Formless: I think many individuals have trouble understanding that people may make suggestions for a reason other than their personal difficulties in game. A stamina bar would be great, and it's definitely possible. There are enjoyable games that are more complex than mount and blade, it just comes down to intuitiveness and realism for any additional mechanics to work.
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@Formless: I think many individuals have trouble understanding that people may make suggestions for a reason other than their personal difficulties in game. A stamina bar would be great, and it's definitely possible. There are enjoyable games that are more complex than mount and blade, it just comes down to intuitiveness and realism for any additional mechanics to work.
It would still be a major change, requiring months of testing to balance properly. This is a mod, not m&b3. "it might make it beter" isn't a decent enough argument for such a major change that also has the potential to screw alot of things up. If the argument had been it might make it beter and is needed because x,y,z, then I might agree with the idea, but every other argument for a stamina has been shot down. Besides do we know if a stamina bar is even doable? Have any other M&B mods done it?
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I really do not think we need it. I mean if someone was battling a really good blocker, the stamina runs out, and the next guy he battles, he cant attack and will definatly die, since he has no stamina to run away.