Stamina Bar Needed

[Wallace]

I feel like I'm trolling at this point but....

If you are using a shield entirely for personal use that is called being lazy.
If you are using a shield to defend DPS class teammates so they can effective hit and return to ur nurturing arms you are doing it correctly
If you want a massive K/d you aren't playing the right class. This isn't always true as there are players that are sword and board that are exceptional killers
Dan_ATS rapes my face and has time to doodle in MSpaint about it without thinking twice. But that is skill playing as the catalyst of his win.

In short, you bad - others good

[Kafein]

There problem isn't the spam attitude (dying by a player repeatedly attacking in the same way without feints or anything means you still need to learn, except in the following case), it's the pure lightning speed you can get by building your character and equipment correctly, making you able to attack, be blocked then attack and be faster to hit than your opponent.

Any player with this kind of setup can do decent k/d.

Now give that to "good" players, using feints, footwork, lolstab, playing with reach... and you get players that will be called "spammers" with a reason.


A good and simple solution for the "spam" problem is reducing the speed bonus given by each point of agility. Currently each agility point gives you 0.5% more speed, and that a lot : 10% more speed at agi 20. I don't know exactly how it works so it's maybe even done after the wpp, so increasing the swing speed much more than a simple +0.5% per point to your weapon's speed rating. With the patch and the upkeep, strenght was finally nerfed to death and now everyone stacks agility after having reached a few requirements (funnily, archers have more strenght than meleers now, because they need much PD and benefit from additional points). So this change could also balance things a bit between str and agi.

[Helbrass]

I feel like I'm trolling at this point but....

If you are using a shield entirely for personal use that is called being lazy.
If you are using a shield to defend DPS class teammates so they can effective hit and return to ur nurturing arms you are doing it correctly
If you want a massive K/d you aren't playing the right class. This isn't always true as there are players that are sword and board that are exceptional killers
Dan_ATS rapes my face and has time to doodle in MSpaint about it without thinking twice. But that is skill playing as the catalyst of his win.

In short, you bad - others good

If you've seen me play you know I never get massive k/d. I'm lucky to break even and I don't really mind it.

I use a shield and awlpike to poke people. Frankly I suck at manual blocking and I don't feel like being an arrow/throwing axe magnet when I'm just starting in the mod.

I don't complain about others doing better or me being shitty, I just find it odd that somebody with a massive weapon can attack with such frequency that I can barely move my fighting axe in time to strike back.

In Native single player, being able to constantly swing a heavy weapon over your head to drop legions of bodies in battle alone is fine, but in a MP mod that at least attempts a small level of realism I'd expect to see some kind of change to those superhuman abilities.

[jspook]

Wouldnt nerfing the speed bonus from agi simply nerf everyone all across the board?  seriously, you need a better solution than that.

[IG_Saint]

So you admit that it's a problem. Why do you oppose the solution? Maybe you are a spammer yourself? For the umpteenth time, spam is not a problem for good players, the problem is that you can avoid blocking by building a certain character and choosing certain equipment. You will always die against good players, but you will still kill the rest, which is around 70% of the playerbase.

Now if you don't think this is a problem, that's fine. In my eyes, this is a huge problem that can be easily fixed without affecting anyone but those who are causing the problem. Thus, obviously, if you are against a cure without side effects, you must be profiting from the illness. Everyone who is against a stamina system is a spammer at heart. All arguments heard against it so far are laughable at best (it takes away my freedom to decide when to swing, i don't want the game to turn into WoW, stamina system would be impossible to balance, only agi builds would profit, yadda, yadda, yadda).

Face it, you are a spammer.

My post have been about how it's easy to counter spam, no where did I say it didn't work on the general populace. I just think there are beter ways to fix the problem a major overhaul to the entire system. The system is fine, it's just that alot of people have problems dealing with the high speeds that some builds can do. If you want to fix that problem nerf the high speeds, it won't affect anyone but the people that are the problem.

Oh and yes, I do use spam, just like I use blocking, chambering, positioning and timing. Come fight me on the duel server sometime, I'm usually on as crazy_corvin or crazy_christo.

[Mouse]

Why should I feel bad for saying my opinion? O.O'' Are you fascist?

Anyway, you should be the one feeling bad cuz "good spammers" will just spam you until you fuck up a block or 2 and kill you! I know how to block man, I'm no noob thank you very much! "Good spammers" will just not give you time to counter so what are you gonna do? Block block block block -oh shit got hit- block block block -oh shit got hit- etc etc etc...  until they kill you if nobody comes to help you back stab him... You can't perfectly block all the hits of a real spammer! Some are surely gonna hit you! Man when you can't even land a hit/counter cuz of retarded game mecanism it's not my "lack of blocking skills" that needs to be fixed but a simple system that would make spamming impossible!

I block once, then I attack. They must block me or they will die. I have never found someone in the current release of cRPG who could swing a second time faster than I could counter attack with my 95 speed 1H axe and huscarl shield. Balbaroth, Dan, Goretooth, Chuck Norris, Optimus Prime and Mohammad Ali are all too slow for my lousy level 25 character. In previous versions people could literally spam through your counter-attacks. cRPG was broken and that is why I refused to play until recently. I still hate cRPG more than everyone else does, but spam is not a problem. Italic glyphs are not a problem either. I will note, however, that some weapons can be spammed through if you do not have much WPF. All of those weapons are utility weapons like the pike and sledgehammer, so that's fine.

I'm level 26 (I leveled up in the previous paragraph), use a huscarl shield with 5 points into shields, and I only have 133 WPF in 1H weapons. Danny told me he has 6 shield and Balby said he has 5. They have also heirloomed weapons and I don't. And I don't get ever outspammed not even by spammatars and triple heirloomed katanas. In fact, the only annoying thing about a katana spammer is that they run so fast. Their ability to "spam" makes them a little trickier to manual block, but it's only their ability to practically sprint backwards that annoys me.

The place where spam becomes overly effective is against someone using a shield. Because your swings are considerably slower when using a shield, a 2H spammer can simply barrage a shield user with attacks and usually get away with a kill unless they're unlucky or suffer from bad lag.

False. Your swings are not slower when using a shield. Did no one here play Native? Shields do NOT slow your swing speed. This has been proven. Shields have a slight delay between when you release block and when you may start to swing. Higher shield skill reduces this delay. This means blocking with a shield delays your immediate ability to attack and makes feinting with a shield less effective. Your actual swing speed, however, is unaffected. The delay is also never enough to keep you from counter-attacking assuming you actually have some points into shields and 1H weapons.

Oh, hush troll, most people that ask for a stamina bar just don't know a thing about melee combat. Hell, most people that play cRPG don't know a thing about melee combat, that's why you see so many spammers, because it works on people that are bad at melee combat.

Correct.

the problem is that you can avoid blocking by building a certain character and choosing certain equipment

Incorrect. It used to be this way back when cRPG sucked and was broken. It is not that way anymore. It still kind of sucks though.

[bruce]

The system is fine, it's just that alot of people have problems dealing with the high speeds that some builds can do.

True, but I don't find this to be a particular problem postpatch... sure when you meet someone like Khorin, you have to mentally prepare yourself to deal with the off-the chart movement and attack speed (thankfully ninjas are recognizable, heh), but the good bit about fighting such a high agi build is that with a balanced 18/18 all you need is one good hit and he's dead, and my ironflesh-enriched mailed char can take 2-3, so you're allowed to make a mistake, or even two sometimes.

[zagibu]

It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why. You all explain how unnecessary it is and how there are better ways to fix the problem (those that admit it), but i don't really see any arguments against it. On the other hand, we have many players who think it might be a good idea, so why do you oppose this, if it won't affect you? Just because you are all conservative egomaniacs (get off my lawn)?

BTW: I know you, Crazy_Christo, you are an excellent blocker. I wish I was half as good. Still I have no problems with regular spammers. But I also see problems that don't affect me personally. Crazy, I know, why should i care?

[IG_Saint]

It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why. You all explain how unnecessary it is and how there are better ways to fix the problem (those that admit it), but i don't really see any arguments against it. On the other hand, we have many players who think it might be a good idea, so why do you oppose this, if it won't affect you? Just because you are all conservative egomaniacs (get off my lawn)?

BTW: I know you, Crazy_Christo, you are an excellent blocker. I wish I was half as good. Still I have no problems with regular spammers. But I also see problems that don't affect me personally. Crazy, I know, why should i care?

arguments against:
-there are easier and beter ways of reducing spam.
-would require a complete overhaul, more rebalacing of stats, in other words lots of work for the devs.
-if done wrong would completely ruin the combat system.
-if done right could stil completely change a perfectly good combat system.

The fact that there are easier and beter ways of fixing the problem, ways that don't potentially screw everything up, is enough to not want a stamina bar. Why a complicated solution when there are easier ones?

[Mouse]

My main opposition to a stamina system is the idea that stamina could prevent you from blocking. The "perfect defense" mechanic in Warband gives it a very high skill ceiling and allows for tense, extended fights between good players.

[Helbrass]

False. Your swings are not slower when using a shield. Did no one here play Native? Shields do NOT slow your swing speed. This has been proven. Shields have a slight delay between when you release block and when you may start to swing. Higher shield skill reduces this delay. This means blocking with a shield delays your immediate ability to attack and makes feinting with a shield less effective. Your actual swing speed, however, is unaffected. The delay is also never enough to keep you from counter-attacking assuming you actually have some points into shields and 1H weapons

So I'm wrong about the swing speed being slower, but there is still a delay when you block a hit. You say tomato...

Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage. Do I need 200 skill?

And before more L2P remarks are thrown around, even I can pick up a 2H and overwhelm people. And this is with no points in it at all. The amount of actual "skill" required for a 2H user to take out someone with a shield is very lopsided. This might be why so many people carry greatswords while the good players who fight with shields are rare.

[bruce]

It's all cool that you are against a stamina system, but I'd like to know why.

Because it's either going to break melee in general (for instance, not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people), going to introduce erm unintended consequences depending on what all falls within the stamina system, for instance running, etc), while not fixing any real or percieved problems.

For instance, what you mostly classify as spam are, in a single fight, 2-3 swings, since that's enough to kill someone who doesn't block. So, in order to fix that, you'd have to do, what, make someone swing and take a breather then? Doesn't make sense, and would really break combat.

Feinting? Ok, if you made feinting take stamina, you do solve the annoying "lolfeintspam" (well, personally I'm not bothered by it, since I like long weapons so people don't get to do that on me, but it is generally annoying and a pain to watch), but it doesn't solve the funny feinting speed of long and heavy weapons (which, unlike attacking which is generally fine, seems just physically impossible).

I just don't see the :point:. The only people who get purely spammed are turtling shielders, people who don't counterattack, peasants and wooden structures. And I see potential bad side-effects.

If you wanted to discuss specific balance issues with xyz stat/weapon/mechanic, it'd make more sense then proposing a stamina system to stop "spam".

Also, if you want to propose a mechanic to combat something which is very subjective (eg, "spam"), you have to precisely describe what exactly is spam and how do you propose it should work.

Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage. Do I need 200 skill?

Tbh, it's much easier to "screw up" with a shield+1h vs a 2h/polearmer then it is to screw up with a 2h/polearm, in my experience. To fight with a 1h/shield takes a different set of skills then to fight with a 2h weapon.

That said, I find it :easier: to do reasonably well with a 2h/polearm in melee at lower levels. On the other hand I only really liked shield+1h when I reached levels 26-30 when I played it, before that it was quite a pain. Then scoring kills was fairly easy (of course str build and heirloomed weapon really helped to cover the typical 1h damage deficiency) in the thick of melee. On the other hand, with a polearm/2h I really prefer hanging around in the sidelines instead of leading the charge.

[Wallace]

Continuing my input here...

Do you really think that stamina would only effect attacking anyway? If you are blocking with a shield under the same pretense of realism you would be tired out from the abusive force against your shield.

Also again if you have a sword and shield why aren't you playing defensively to assist ur offensive players? This is a team game if you have forgotten and sword and board is a very team oriented build

[Mouse]

Playing right now with 100 skill in one handed weapons, and shield level 4, I rarely get a chance to swing back if I'm forced to block a 2H barrage.

Don't know why you're having trouble, to be honest. The game gets pretty laggy with 100 people though, and lag can break anything. Maybe you should meet someone on duel servers for both cRPG and Native and see how the spam feels in both mods. Fraps it and post too.

[Bothersome_Aldryk]

Hmm. I don't really understand all the talk about being spammed as a shielder. When I play on my shielder, the issue is never weapon speed. It's footwork. I use a short weapon and can be outranged. Weapon speed isn't the issue at all. When it comes to nonstop attacks, I only usually have issues if the person has enough athletics to keep away from my effective range most of the time. Admittedly, that can be a bit of a problem since my build only has 5ish athletics currently. Either way if you judge the timing and positioning well enough, you can always find an opportunity to attack back. Whether or not you'll kill him... That's a different story. The only reason I don't play my shielder more than my main is that I don't enjoy playing with shields. I enjoy the feeling of getting better at manual blocking and polearms have some of my favorite weapons (Primarily the poke types. Pike, Awlpike, etc.).