cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Matey on October 11, 2011, 08:27:46 am
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Currently most armour of 5 or less weight gets +1 for 1st loom, +1 for 2nd loom and +2 for 3rd loom, for a total of +4 armour. compared to all other armour which gets +2, +2 and +3 (total 7).
Compare the 'best' light armour (triple loomed) with the 'worst' medium armour (no loom)
Reinforced Studded Leather Coat
weight: 5
body armor: 34
leg armor: 14
difficulty: 8
Lamellar Vest
weight: 9.5
body armor: 36
leg armor: 6
difficulty: 9
2 less armour despite triple loom... true it weighs less and has better leg armour... but so what? triple loom the lamellar and its 43 body and 13 leg. why is it so scary to let the light armour have the 3 extra armour? it just keeps it in line with everything else... no loom studded has 30 body and 10 leg... no loom lamellar 36 body 6 leg... triple loom both and shouldnt the difference be the same? (6 less body and 4 more leg for the studded) I dont get why a loomed lamellar should get an advantage over a loomed studded.
TL:DR = Give Light armour the same loom benefits as every other armour in the game... or make every other armour get the same loom benefits as light :evil:
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From the aspect of realism, IRL heavy armor just has more beef(mass and material) to mess around and make it more reinforced.
That's light armor loomzz but anyhow
I voted for the second option. Armor looms already give more bonus than weapon looms anyhow. Drop everything down to where light looms are.
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There is already a thread about that ;)
And why should light armour get the same? It is --> light <-- armour. It will get overpowered if you give it +7 armour but keep the weight etc. All archers will need 2-4 hits/shots then which would be ridiculous.
Leave it as it is
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The way armor works, +2 is more significant on a 40 armor than on a 20 armor. Light armors can have the same benefit as heavy armors without a balance problem.
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I recognise a big difference between my 2 favourite armours, one with 19 and one with 27 body armour.
Usually I survive 1-2 hits with the 19 and 2-4 hits with the 27.
If you give that one +7 armour I will be able to survive alot more. Which would unbalance the game again.
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This is a good way to both help increase the variety of loomed items and as a means to very slightly buff Agi builds.
If you're going to make armor subject to realism then plate needs to start completely blocking 99% of incoming damage, All cloth/leather armor should essentially do nothing in comparison to mail/scale/plate, armor weight should reduce your maximum movement speed, etc...
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more votes!
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This is a good way to both help increase the variety of loomed items and as a means to very slightly buff Agi builds.
If you're going to make armor subject to realism then plate needs to start completely blocking 99% of incoming damage, All cloth/leather armor should essentially do nothing in comparison to mail/scale/plate, armor weight should reduce your maximum movement speed, etc...
I doubt any melee char has less than 12 str... Which give you acess to +7 loomed armour so no, I don't see the benefit of this.
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I still think armor heirlooms are OP as fuck, specially on heavy armor.
Heavy armor already has a shitload of defense, WHICH IS WHY THEY'RE CALLED HEAVY ARMOR, who the fuck thought it was an idea to give them even MORE armor?
Gothic plate, lol 56 body armor, WAIT, that's not enough, clearly I shall triple loom it for 63 body armor! Hmm, I still feel that isn't enough, maybe with hourglass? 72 body armor, Ah! Looking better! What if I also triple heirloom those? 79 body armor you say? Ohohoho.
It's also stupid how you can turn light armor into heavy with looms and/or gloves, take a nomad robe with 27 body armor, add triple heirloomed hourglass and you get 43 body armor, gee whizz, that's fun, light armor turned into medium-heavy.
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I doubt any melee char has less than 12 str... Which give you acess to +7 loomed armour so no, I don't see the benefit of this.
Uhhh... What?
Have you never played an Agi based character before? The purpose of light armor is to both reduce the wpf penalty as well as the movement penalty. I... Your statement in no way acknowledges any differences between Str/Agi characters. They're not played the same way, just because you have the strength to use an item doesn't mean that it's the best choice. Several str characters get over 18 str yet you don't see them all using a flamberge or a great maul. Several archers and crossbowmen get more strength than their lower tier ranged weapons require, yet each weapon they choose still has its place in the meta-game.
Please, if you're going to post in the Game Balance DISCUSSION thread, can you at least bring logic to the table?
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Somebody else probably already said this, but what if Light Armor got the same bonus it does now, plus a slight weight reduction - like maybe .25-.50 for each loom?
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All armour heirlooms should be reduced , especially now that weapon looms have been toned down. So i've picked the 2nd answer. Triple loomed medium/heavy armors atm are outright ridiculous.
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Somebody else probably already said this, but what if Light Armor got the same bonus it does now, plus a slight weight reduction - like maybe .25-.50 for each loom?
No one in their right mind will support this, nor should they. Armor weight currently goes from 5 to 9.5 the armors we're talking about, are all 5 weight or less. To keep from getting a wpf penalty you only need to stay below 7 weight, picking up 2 weight from cloth helmets, gloves and boots is actually... impossible I believe. Which means any further weight reduction is pointless. You would need armors that weight 7-8 for this, but at that point, they'd gain 7 armor rather than 4, so it wouldn't even be an issue to begin with.
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Uhhh... What?
Have you never played an Agi based character before? The purpose of light armor is to both reduce the wpf penalty as well as the movement penalty. I... Your statement in no way acknowledges any differences between Str/Agi characters. They're not played the same way, just because you have the strength to use an item doesn't mean that it's the best choice. Several str characters get over 18 str yet you don't see them all using a flamberge or a great maul. Several archers and crossbowmen get more strength than their lower tier ranged weapons require, yet each weapon they choose still has its place in the meta-game.
Please, if you're going to post in the Game Balance DISCUSSION thread, can you at least bring logic to the table?
Whats the point of playing an agi char to the point where you can just run around smacking air?
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moar votes! we must bring change through our democraticness
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i agree so i voted
(i totally thought i posted on this topic but i have not :?:)
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lookit those poll results! can we get some loom fixing now plix?! :mrgreen:
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lookit those poll results! can we get some loom fixing now plix?! :mrgreen:
i voted yes because its you matey !
Also because i love to wear the studden leather coat :D
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Voted for second option. This is really old issue, hope new petition system, implemented by D.onkey can help us.
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No one in their right mind will support this, nor should they.
Your points would've been made just as well without that. :/
But anyhow, it sounds like you're only considering the WPF, but weight also has an effect on speed, and that's more my concern. The cumulative effects of losing between .75 and 1.5 weight from each item would be subtle, but appreciable. Maybe armor weight has other effects that I don't know about that make lowering it a bad idea, though. Anyway if nobody likes the idea, forget it. :B Just sayin. :P
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Your points would've been made just as well without that. :/
But anyhow, it sounds like you're only considering the WPF, but weight also has an effect on speed, and that's more my concern. The cumulative effects of losing between .75 and 1.5 weight from each item would be subtle, but appreciable. Maybe armor weight has other effects that I don't know about that make lowering it a bad idea, though. Anyway if nobody likes the idea, forget it. :B Just sayin. :P
Yeah, the bolded statements are how I know you didn't understand what I meant. I added that because I like the idea, but it just doesn't work or isn't enough with current game mechanics. 1.5 weight isn't going to mean dick for movement either.
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All armor should have the same effect from heirlooming it, regardless if it's light, medium or heavy.
Takes the same amount of time to heirloom milanese plate x3 as it does Red Shirt x3.
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Especially since +7 armor means more when you have base of 40 than 20.
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Option B, though I think 3 total armor is enough, not 4 or higher.
Since agi build is already doing less damage, why do heavy armours get such a high bonus per hit?
Also, I wear a lot of outfits so I do not loom body armour.
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If the light armour heirloom bonus were increased to +7, then between gloves and padded leather a 29 body armour suit, which is what I wear, could become 43 armour - which is an increase of 48%. It seems overpowered to me that two low-tier items could have such an enormous base stat increase. On the flip side, there are suits of 72 armour getting a 14 point stat boost, taking them all the way up to 86. At this level players become tanks who are really no fun to fight (for me).
Considering this, I voted for changing all armour heirlooms to a total of +4.
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I vote no. You are basically asking for light armor to get a bigger percent boost than heavy armor.
The real advantages of light armor are cost and weight. If you don't care about cost or weight then use the medium armor. If you do care, then use the light armor and be happy that it gets roughly the same percentage improvement as heavy.
I don't see a problem other than an optimistic wish that triple heirloomed light armor be 100% superior to otherwise superior armors.
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82.3% of people seem to agree a change is in order... make it so devs!
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bump for make it so!
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I think armor looms should be toned down.
Anyways, I wouldn't like an armor increase.. How about a weight decrease (with the less defense). I mean, it wouldn't hurt, and it would allow lighter armor players to equip more stuff they like without going over the weight threshold.
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I vote no. You are basically asking for light armor to get a bigger percent boost than heavy armor.
The real advantages of light armor are cost and weight. If you don't care about cost or weight then use the medium armor. If you do care, then use the light armor and be happy that it gets roughly the same percentage improvement as heavy.
I don't see a problem other than an optimistic wish that triple heirloomed light armor be 100% superior to otherwise superior armors.
Armor cost is not linearly connected to the amount of protection it gives, leading me to think that it does not have a linear effect on damage. If this were true, then +1 on heavy armor is much more significant than +1 on light armor. That and heavy armor's price would increase a lot more than light armor's for each loom level.
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any dev know if this is being considered? do we need more votes for them to consider this?
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They haven't even made a single hint as to whether they are considering these poles I had 120 ish votes on the dagger poll most for yes and I had the pole up for a little over a month I believe.
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Armor looming is OP, so I voted the second option. Gloves should also be a +3 or 4.
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They haven't even made a single hint as to whether they are considering these poles I had 120 ish votes on the dagger poll most for yes and I had the pole up for a little over a month I believe.
Actually, there was some joking about it. Something about whether or not it should be placed as priority number 1, or where it currently is, behind all the weapons in the game that actually matter.
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*sorry wrong chat i modify it
Actually, there was some joking about it. Something about whether or not it should be placed as priority number 1, or where it currently is, behind all the weapons in the game that actually matter.
that suck i wanted them to be buffed right now their useless
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Voted 2.
Armor's heirlooms are too high.
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Actually, there was some joking about it. Something about whether or not it should be placed as priority number 1, or where it currently is, behind all the weapons in the game that actually matter.
I think that sucks. I use this weapon and it has been caught in 3 blanket nerfs and forgotten as it counts as a 1handed sword and has been slapped around when they were slowly bringing all 1handed swords down with nerfs. THIS ISN'T A SWORD. If I have chambered and gotten myself into position to be landing hits with a dagger in the game vs a back pedaling glaive spamming jerk one can safely assume I am good with my knife one can also assume that being that good I am able to place my fine DIRK into their unarmored chinks I personally believe the dagger should be pierce on every attack direction as realistically you would be stabbing in every direction the weapon is built for stabbing it is built for slipping into armor and should be capable of wounding those in armor!
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make it so!!!!
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I own a full set of Lordly Plate (Milanese Plate, Plate Mittens, Cased Greaves, Milanese Sallet). I got a shit ton of armor. Let me tell you this: it is not the OP suit of tanking stuff everybody believes. It works very well against AGI chars, because they bounce on most strikes, but against balanced chars, you can maybe take 2 hits more, and against STR based, 1 hit (compared to the medium armor I usually wear).
Also, the upkeep is horrendous. I am still on the same gold amount I was two generations ago, just because I wear the full plate once every four or five rounds. The suit of armor alone costs more than 55k gold.
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So you're in favor of this?
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Sure, why not. Although I have reflexively voted no, before thinking much about it.
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The bonuses should be the same across the board...high end weapons don't get more bonus than low end weapons so why should armor be any different. Please fix this. The community agrees that it should be done and it makes sense as well.
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I still think that the answer is MW light armour looses weight. So MW Tunic over mail goes down from 9.5 to 5.5. And so on and so forth.
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umm
tunic over mail is medium armour and gets the same benefits as all medium and heavy armour.
light armour is everything 5 weight or less... and reducing weight doesnt mean anything for light armour cause its already light. and how about we make it so heavy armour looms gets a fuck ton more weight with their +7 armour? presumably you are just slapping on more metal to make it tougher eh? anyways. sorry if i respond in a bitter fashion, but i just think its total shit that light armour gets treated different than every other armour in the damn game. you dont see weapons getting different bonuses... "oh i say, that torch should get less bonuses because its costs less money! it would be so op for it to get the same bonuses as everything else!"... doesnt work that way. if you are comparing a triple loomed light armour with a non loomed any other armour... then you are doing it wrong. we should be comparing triple loomed with triple loomed... and if you do that, you see that light armour gets shafted for no reason.
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I say just nerf all the armor heirlooms, don't buff the light armor, I don't want even more people running in shitload of body armor even if they wear light stuff.
With lordly light strange and some lordly gloves, you can get like 52 body armor and still stay under the 7 weight limit, I think the average amount of armor is already fuckhigh, I don't want it to be even god damned higher.
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The sWalker very rarely asked for any changes...but my almighty dev gods...please make the looms fair across the board.
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I really dont see why they shouldnt have +7, either give them +7 or +4 and decrease weight. Light armour having less benefits than heavy armour is silly. Or maybe make all armours get +4, no more Super robocop tincan with 90 body armour
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I say the tunic over mail and lamlalallerlelrlelererer drop in weight at MW to 5. +4 armor with a massive weight reduction.
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Gloves +1 +2 +3
Body armour +1 +2 +4
Instead of +14 armour on a lordly set, you'll rather get +7. A lot more balanced, I would say.
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Gloves +1 +2 +3
Body armour +1 +2 +4
Instead of +14 armour on a lordly set, you'll rather get +7. A lot more balanced, I would say.
Yeah, armor looms are most op thing in crpg, nowdays.
But your solution, bring a lot of whine from people with already all armor heirloomed and more importent +7 body armor are not worth of 6 gen retiring.
Fortunately i have ultimate solution. :)
Body armor stay with actual heirllooms values and gloves heirlooms will be cancelled.
So you can get +7 in 3 gen, still quite good and all people with already heirloomed gloves got their heirloom points back.
No more super fast tincans with +14 armor.
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make some changes! YAAARRRGGHHH
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If this ever gets changed +3 Studded Leather Coat is going to be godly...imagine if it was 37 body armor plus +3 mail gauntlets(13 body armor). 50 body armor for something that's viable for archers? A little OP if I say so myself.
As it stands right now The Studded Leather Coat is still the most armor per each weight point(well the padded jack technically). After this it it jumps to 9.5 weight(besides light strange armor) and thereafter it's roughly 2 extra body armor per weight point.
In short, if the studded leather coat was multiplied once it'd equal the same armor value as black armor, but black armor is nearly 6 times the weight.
This would just be a huge buff to archers, and agility builds that would utilize the strong light armor.
So if you really look at it, the 3 armor difference in looms is basically allowing the medium and heavy armor to catch up to the weight to armor disparity.
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This is a good way to both help increase the variety of loomed items and as a means to very slightly buff Agi builds.
If you're going to make armor subject to realism then plate needs to start completely blocking 99% of incoming damage, All cloth/leather armor should essentially do nothing in comparison to mail/scale/plate, armor weight should reduce your maximum movement speed, etc...
I would support this in M+B 2 as long as a proper armour penetration model was implemented. Needs to be as sophisticated as the one in Steel Beasts. Also a better way of controlling strikes so I can aim at the joints and uncovered parts. M+B needs to lean more on the wargame side, not the Steamer twitch game side.