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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:14:24 pm

Title: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:14:24 pm

I noticed while using my Warhammer that it's damage really isn't that great even with +3 and ps6 and wm7 (all in 1h).

For example I have noted many many times hitting an un-helmeted target in the head and not producing a kill. Now I'm not saying that it should 1shot everything left and right, but its rather disappointing when you hit someone in the head with a Mighty Warhammer with no helmet and they still walk around.

With the changes to armour it would appear that Warhammer has rather lost it's core use, being able to interrupt and severely damage heavily armoured targets and disrupt enemy ranks.

Since lower classes of weapons can now interrupt heavily armoured targets its no longer the ideal weapon for heavy enemies anymore. Being extremely short, and slow (not gaining bonus to speed from heirloom) its only saving grace is the higher chance of knock down (3 - 3.5 weight).

Other weapons like the Military Pick and Battle Axes produce better damage, speed, range, and still interrupt effectively (No stab I know).

I don't really know what to do to put Warhammer back into the useful weapons department so I leave it open to all.

Please post useful criticism and not just say L2P.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 03, 2011, 09:18:00 pm

Due to it being blunt, I thought the point of the warhammer was to kick the crap out of armored targets? If you want to kill lightly armored targets then slashing is much much better. Blunt ignores armor even more then pierce.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:21:06 pm

Quote from: Tears_of_Destiny on October 03, 2011, 09:18:00 pm

Due to it being blunt, I thought the point of the warhammer was to kick the crap out of armored targets? If you want to kill lightly armored targets then slashing is much much better. Blunt ignores armor even more then pierce.

With the changes to armour it would appear that Warhammer has rather lost it's core use, being able to interrupt and severely damage heavily armoured targets and disrupt enemy ranks.

Most slashing weapons now interrupt heavily armoured targets too.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: SchokoSchaf on October 03, 2011, 09:27:11 pm

It has knockdown. What do you want more. Almost as good as 1hit. Only more fun. That's why I'm using it.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Cyclopsided on October 03, 2011, 09:27:28 pm

imho the warhammer is amazing.
I was using it on my strength 1h character and nobody survived more than 2 hits, except for allers and equivalent 11 IF+ players.

Also if you get knockdown you instantly win the fight. Nobody can survive after being knocked down by it, I don't care who they are. The three hit combo is just too hard hitting.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:29:49 pm

Quote from: Marathon on October 03, 2011, 09:27:28 pm

imho the warhammer is amazing.
I was using it on my strength 1h character and nobody survived more than 2 hits, except for allers and equivalent 11 IF+ players.

Also if you get knockdown you instantly win the fight. Nobody can survive after being knocked down by it, I don't care who they are. The three hit combo is just too hard hitting.

I thought the same thing at first, but I've been using a Mighty one since the last reset and it lost its luster for me.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Cyclopsided on October 03, 2011, 09:35:12 pm

Quote from: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:29:49 pm

I thought the same thing at first, but I've been using a Mighty one since the last reset and it lost its luster for me.

It is just that there are more strength leaning builds surviving more hits.
Imagine if you had a wimpy little Italian sword. They'd be taking way more hits.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 03, 2011, 09:40:44 pm

Speed, Length, Stab is amazing on that sword.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Diomedes on October 03, 2011, 10:23:32 pm

Quote from: Marathon on October 03, 2011, 09:35:12 pm

It is just that there are more strength leaning builds surviving more hits.
Imagine if you had a wimpy little Italian sword. They'd be taking way more hits.

I swapped my mighty warhammer for a MW italian sword in the [previous] big patch and enjoy it profusely thank you very much gooddaytoyousir.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Cyclopsided on October 03, 2011, 10:34:42 pm

I was using it as an example as probably the best well rounded 1h, and that it requires still more hits than a warhammer to kill.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Digglez on October 03, 2011, 11:55:42 pm

Just like tears said, you are better off using a slashing weapon against anyone in 50 or less armor.  Warhammer is either a tincan killer or support weapon when you have teammates around.  I probably get 15-25% knockdown rate when using it, giving me and my teammates LOTS of extra free hits against downed opponents.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 04, 2011, 02:09:45 pm

Quote from: Digglez on October 03, 2011, 11:55:42 pm

Just like tears said, you are better off using a slashing weapon against anyone in 50 or less armor.  Warhammer is either a tincan killer or support weapon when you have teammates around.  I probably get 15-25% knockdown rate when using it, giving me and my teammates LOTS of extra free hits against downed opponents.

How is it a tincan killer now?

Every weapon interrupts, the allure of the Warhammer originally was that it lands a hit every time, and it could knock down an enemy.

Now its just a super short, low (but consistent!) damage weapon that may allow you to get an extra free swing, that is slow as F.

After using it for months I find even unheirloomed weapons are better than the Warhammer, which for sake of realism should hurt quite a bit with or without armour, especially in the face.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Digglez on October 05, 2011, 01:00:00 am

Quote from: Konrax on October 04, 2011, 02:09:45 pm

How is it a tincan killer now?

Every weapon interrupts, the allure of the Warhammer originally was that it lands a hit every time, and it could knock down an enemy.

Now its just a super short, low (but consistent!) damage weapon that may allow you to get an extra free swing, that is slow as F.

After using it for months I find even unheirloomed weapons are better than the Warhammer, which for sake of realism should hurt quite a bit with or without armour, especially in the face.

Run of the Mill Tincan 24 STR, 8 IF, 75 HP Transitional Plate: 53 armor Plate Mittens: 10 Armor Total Body Armor: 63	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Warhammer: 31b Avg Dmg: 18 High Dmg: 29 Low: Dmg: 7 Average hits required to kill target: 5	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Elite Scimitar: 31c Avg Dmg: 10 High Dmg: 21 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  8
Heirloomed Tincan 24 STR, 8 IF, 75 HP Total Body Armor: 63+14= 77 armor	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Warhammer: 31b Avg Dmg: 12 High Dmg: 23 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  7	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Elite Scimitar: 31c Avg Dmg: 7 High Dmg: 14 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  11

so besides doing close to double the dmg of an equivilent cut weapon, I dont know about you but I dont have all day to try and hit a tincan 8-11 times with a cut weapon to kill them.  They will have friends show up before that.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Xant on October 05, 2011, 01:02:20 am

Warhammer is amazing, had fun using it without a shield when I was 1h.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Tzar on October 05, 2011, 01:16:10 am

TBH i prefer the Military Hammer alot more since.

A. it doenst have a retarded stab animation that fucks up your hammertime fun...

B. Its longer it may not sound like alot on paper but it shows.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 05, 2011, 02:19:57 am

Quote from: Digglez on October 05, 2011, 01:00:00 am

Run of the Mill Tincan 24 STR, 8 IF, 75 HP Transitional Plate: 53 armor Plate Mittens: 10 Armor Total Body Armor: 63	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Warhammer: 31b Avg Dmg: 18 High Dmg: 29 Low: Dmg: 7 Average hits required to kill target: 5	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Elite Scimitar: 31c Avg Dmg: 10 High Dmg: 21 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  8
Heirloomed Tincan 24 STR, 8 IF, 75 HP Total Body Armor: 63+14= 77 armor	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Warhammer: 31b Avg Dmg: 12 High Dmg: 23 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  7	STR: 18 PS: 6 WPF: 125 Elite Scimitar: 31c Avg Dmg: 7 High Dmg: 14 Low: Dmg: 0 Average hits to kill target:  11

so besides doing close to double the dmg of an equivilent cut weapon, I dont know about you but I dont have all day to try and hit a tincan 8-11 times with a cut weapon to kill them.  They will have friends show up before that.

Your comparison isn't very accurate in the sense that your comparing the BEST hammer weapon to a sword that is ideal for its speed and length.

Try your calculation again with a Langes Messer, or Long Espada Stabs, or other swords that have superiour stats in every context except for the fact they don't do blunt damage or have a knock down.

Even a sword designed for speed and length will still land a hit on plate armour instead of being completely negated.

When armour values were changed hammer class weapons were indirectly nerfed.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Digglez on October 05, 2011, 02:26:47 am

Sorry dude, you are dead wrong.  Anyone attacking tincans with a sword is stupid. 

Is it easier to get hits with a sword? Sure
Will you likely land more hits with a sword? Sure


Its quite the opposite of what you're staying.  Armor absorbs MUCH more sword damage these days than it used to.  Sure you can stagger guys in plate with some rinkedink sword but you will sit there hacking away for minutes before you kill them.  Blunt on the other hand, knocks them down, gives you free hits and takes half the number of hits.

Blunt take a dangerous opponent and make them less dangerous when they're on the ground and you get free hits.  They are the great neutralizer.  Just ask the guys in plate what they fear, it sure isnt some sword that does 5-10 dmg a hit.  They'll gladly take 2-4 1h sword hits, so they can 1shot you, whereas the blunt guy knocked them down and just did half their hp in 2 hits.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Dan lol on October 05, 2011, 03:16:31 am

The shitslapper fucking owns if you buff it it will become op

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 05, 2011, 11:15:32 am

Iberian Mace gets results you stupid chief! I think the Warhammer needs a little love. The mace for the money is a much better propersition.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 05, 2011, 04:31:31 pm

Quote from: dangah on October 05, 2011, 11:15:32 am

Iberian Mace gets results you stupid chief! I think the Warhammer needs a little love. The mace for the money is a much better propersition.

I think IM is a better pick too for a hammer class weapon imho.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Jarlek on October 05, 2011, 07:57:07 pm

Did anyone say MACE?!?!?

I fucking love the Winged Mace. Whacking tincans right and left, BOOYAH!

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Digglez on October 06, 2011, 01:03:22 am

Quote from: Zapper on October 05, 2011, 07:57:07 pm

Did anyone say MACE?!?!?

I fucking love the Winged Mace. Whacking tincans right and left, BOOYAH!

doesnt weight enough and therefore gets less knockdowns...which is about half the point of using a blunt weapon

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Bobthehero on October 06, 2011, 01:11:15 am

Quote from: Digglez on October 05, 2011, 02:26:47 am

Sorry dude, you are dead wrong.  Anyone attacking tincans with a sword is stupid. 

I beg to differ, and will see you on the field  *slaps Digglez with his glove*, with good PS even swords with be efficient agaisnt armor, and then if you can introduce their face to a stab or two, you'll be fine.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Danath on October 06, 2011, 03:57:33 pm

Warhammer isnt what it used to be, I now also swap to italian sword it feels far more effective, sure the old tin can takes 2 more hits to take down but at least it feels fast and I can keep some distance.

Warhammer just aint what it used to be...

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Duster on October 06, 2011, 04:04:31 pm

Quote from: Dan lol on October 05, 2011, 03:16:31 am

The shitslapper fucking owns if you buff it it will become op

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 06, 2011, 04:27:16 pm

Quote from: Danath on October 06, 2011, 03:57:33 pm

Warhammer isnt what it used to be, I now also swap to italian sword it feels far more effective, sure the old tin can takes 2 more hits to take down but at least it feels fast and I can keep some distance.

Warhammer just aint what it used to be...

This right here.... is what I'm talking about.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Konrax on October 07, 2011, 10:11:12 pm

I love the biased hate towards this weapon when its cheaper counterpart (Iberian Mace) is actually a better weapon because of its length.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Xant on October 07, 2011, 10:36:38 pm

Someone's just mad because they have a +3 Warhammer and nobody wants to trade it when this certain someone also asks for money on top of it. Lul.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Penitent on October 07, 2011, 11:47:23 pm

I think warhammer and mil hammer should both get +1 speed.

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Siiem on October 07, 2011, 11:51:48 pm

Quote from: Garison on October 07, 2011, 11:47:23 pm

I think warhammer and mil hammer should both get +1 speed.

You think anyone would notice?

Title: Re: Warhammer
Post by: Penitent on October 08, 2011, 12:05:34 am

Quote from: Siiem on October 07, 2011, 11:51:48 pm

You think anyone would notice?

Good question!
It's a minor adjustment, but a well deserved one.
(see my poll on pick/hammer speed stats)