cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Erathsmus on October 01, 2011, 10:49:36 pm

Title: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 01, 2011, 10:49:36 pm
Throughout playing this game forever, horses have been a severe problem regarding balancing issues. Slots were introduced so horsemen can't ride around with every weapon, horse archers were mega nerfed, and horse prices are insane.

I know this is controversial and people are going to rage about it.

But here is is....

Reduce horse prices a bit.

Raise horse stats a bit. *EDIT*- Not buffing the horse bump.

Make horse archers alot less crappy.

AND

1 slot for armoured horses and arab/courser <*Edited as Zapper provided a very good case, ty.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wiltzu on October 01, 2011, 11:24:00 pm
I think the horse's bump is way too op, i mean seriously if there's 10 shielders shields up in line the horse can just run straight through them and bump every1     so not a singel buff to the horses i say.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Digglez on October 01, 2011, 11:34:54 pm
try thinking your idea out before posting this junk
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Thucydides on October 01, 2011, 11:47:45 pm
I think the horse's bump is way too op, i mean seriously if there's 10 shielders shields up in line the horse can just run straight through them and bump every1     so not a singel buff to the horses i say.

duh you retard, try grouping in a square formation instead of a line. first line KD while second and third line fucks the horse
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wiltzu on October 01, 2011, 11:50:09 pm
it was a fucking example -.-
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Braeden on October 01, 2011, 11:51:48 pm
I actually like "reduce horse prices" and "make horses take slots"

Not sure about stat buffs, or horse archer buffs, but the basic idea is a nice concept, I think.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Thomek on October 01, 2011, 11:57:48 pm
Make horses take slots.

+1

Main reason you can never balance cav is that it's outside of the slot-system.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Bulzur on October 02, 2011, 12:14:32 am
Make horses take slots.

+1

Main reason you can never balance cav is that it's outside of the slot-system.

Agreed.
"But it's expensive" isn't enough of a balance argument. Every class would love to have a 30k weapon that con onehit cav. Like a 400reach flamberge with 50cut. And lolstab please.
Horse archers can still take hornbow+2stacks of arrows, or yamibow+1stack of arrow. And we won't see thoses horrible to deal with 1h/shield + hornbow+¨1stackof arrows "i can kill anyone". But they'll need some more love, so... 1 free Horse archery skill ?
And lowering a bit horse's cost would be enough.

If you up horse's stats, this is going to be horrible.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2011, 12:49:19 am
Agreed.
"But it's expensive" isn't enough of a balance argument. Every class would love to have a 30k weapon that con onehit cav.

They don't need 30k weapons that onehit cav. All classes already have 10k (or less) weapons that do it, except 1h. 2h have swords, poles have pikes, awlpikes and long spears, archers have... (surprisingly) bows, throwers have throwing junk and xbowers have xbows.

Try to imagine what you'd do if suddenly your prefered weapon costed 20k more. You wouldn't change ?



Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Malaclypse on October 02, 2011, 02:02:17 am
I rarely, rarely one-hit cav on my 9 PS pikeman alt. Only when they let me (give me a speed bonus). I don't know what kind of setup you use that does so, Kafein.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 02, 2011, 02:08:41 am
try thinking your idea out before posting this junk

Nice constructive critisizm, go troll somewhere else admin wannabe.

ANYWAYS, I do agree that horse bumps are annoying, and by buffs I do not reffere to buffing the bump, just the stats of the horse itself by a slight amount. Especially since it will be considered a part of your equipable slots.

Edit: I will put the not buffing bumps in my main post, ty.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Black Wind on October 02, 2011, 03:12:17 am
I like the concept of horses taking slots.

As for buffs? I think it isn't necessary, especially for horse archers.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 02, 2011, 05:00:55 am
I had to hit a mamaluk horse 14 times with a broad axe (35c) with 7PS before it died. That was at the end of the battle after the rider was dead, I've got no idea how many hits it had taken before that. So... no, horses are OP death machines that have been known to kill people after the rider was dead from a bump (ie me, the other day. Was loltastic).
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: PhantomZero on October 02, 2011, 07:02:26 am
The slot system wasn't for the sole purpose of nerfing cav, it was done to restructure how Melee could also carry multiple types of weapons, becoming one man armies, in addition to pulling a pike out of their asshole.

This would really only effect lancers and HA and their ability to choose to have a 1H sidearm or not, HA of course could opt to take 1 less quiver.

Horse bumping has absolutely no effect if you have body armor above 50 so I would like to see something done about that first, or the rest of you should just wear heavier armor. The horse is expensive, and the expense does do a good job of limiting its use. However, the marketplace has nullified that balance as most players by now have unlimited gold, just sell your heirloom point or do some trading/scaming.

and dangah, your anecdotal evidence does not stand up to testing, please try again. Remember, an object in motion tends to stay in motion, until enough peasant's have sated it's bloodlust.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Snoozer on October 02, 2011, 11:30:23 am
i hate horse bumps im infantry that says enough.but they should n0t be nerfed its a GIANT ARMOR CLAD FUCKING HORSE how would it NOT kill you if you get trampled by it.maybe it should be slowed down more after the bump other then that it should not be nerfed.

but making a slot system on horses WOULD TOTALLY nerf them on ground seeing how it would be 2slot lance+shield1slot+1slot horse once they get knocked off there dead trying to poke you with a lance the whole time(i hate longspears n shit enough as it is i wouldnt want to deal with cav like that too)...or there going to be a rinning away douche bags trying to find a weapon.....both are fucked up in different ways and i would want to deal with them
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on October 02, 2011, 11:32:52 am
I think the horse's bump is way too op, i mean seriously if there's 10 shielders shields up in line the horse can just run straight through them and bump every1     so not a singel buff to the horses i say.

where they close to each other ? domino effect ?
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 02, 2011, 11:38:47 am
Seems to be an issue here, the main focus you guys, is the idea of making horses use slots.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Snoozer on October 02, 2011, 12:08:35 pm
my bad.i think no. due to the fact its a massive nerf to a very nerfed class. if you keep beating the cav it will die eventually

lances are 2 slot and i would assume horses would be 2 slot as well so what does that leave them when they get dismounted? knights were not idiots they were armor clad with the best weapons the family can afford. i think the cav bill shows that right now so leave them alone(i dont use cav by the way only my last gen did i mingle in it but i was hardly a cavalry unit i was more of a troll)
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Ylca on October 02, 2011, 12:45:20 pm
Price is only a limiting factor until a player's first retirement. Sell one loom and that goes out the window. Balancing classes by crpg gold isn't really going to work since the marketplace was introduced.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Snoozer on October 02, 2011, 12:48:45 pm
well on that subject i think once the twinks(those my old friends who stay under 26 to not pay upkeep sorry for the WoW term) disappear the never ending fountain of gold will be gone  and the vets will slowly geet drained of there gold imo.just saying
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Ylca on October 02, 2011, 01:05:54 pm
well on that subject i think once the twinks(those my old friends who stay under 26 to not pay upkeep sorry for the WoW term) disappear the never ending fountain of gold will be gone  and the vets will slowly geet drained of there gold imo.just saying

Vets aren't going to get drained any time soon, trust me. Any time one comes close to draining he can simply trade a loom point for 400 to 500K and ride for another two generations. Hell, i'm considering selling my loom and going plated charger next gen. Archery fix is so nice though...
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 02, 2011, 01:19:52 pm
I've been thinking about this myself and believes this to greatly balance cav AND make HA/HC less annoying.

First of all this would mean that HA/HC would take 1 less ammo AND get a melee weapon (0 slot) thus decreasing the amount of ranged AND make it more fair for the melee infantry.

For lancers, this would be a great nerf, THEREFOR I say that we could make the couch-only lances 1 slot items.

I am also unsure about weather or not some of the lighter horses should be 0 slot too. Maybe let some, like the sumpter/rouncey/steppe/desert/paulfrey be 0 slot while the armoured/destrier/arabian/courser are 1?

About the buff of horses. Not sure if this is required. Just make the couch only weapons 1 slot and maybe the light lance and then it would be enough of a help for horsemen.

The reason I never made this myself is because of the random BS whine/insults that would come from a suggestion like this.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Bulzur on October 02, 2011, 02:34:13 pm
Horse bumping has absolutely no effect if you have body armor above 50

WOOT ? I got 53 body armor and loose quite a bit of hp when a courser or destrier bumps me. Not speaking of the overused armored horses.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Elmokki on October 02, 2011, 02:42:09 pm
In my opinion horsemen should have possibility to take at least the following setups that currently take 4 slots:

Bow + 2 sets of arrows + decent (1 slot) sidearm = currently 4
Lance + 1h + shield = currently 4

Slot system would remove both options. HAs going without a decent melee weapon or with only one stack of arrows I could understand, but nerfing that lancer setup I would be unable to understand.

If you want to balance horses, I believe you either need to revamp the equipment system enough to make 1 slot lances balanced (they'd be pretty good 1 slot spears for infantry if they were 1 slot) or you need to balance it by making cavalry characters sacrifice more for becoming cavalry.

EDIT: Also, seriously, current bump system is retarded. As 1h/shield infantry in 40ish body armor a lone armored horseman with a shield can just trample me a few times to get a kill. To survive I need to make perfect stabs with speedbonus to the horse a few times to get it down and then kill the unharmed rider who was just holding shield up before in infantry combat. Usually horsemen gladly don't risk their horses and if they're bad they can be jump-stabbed down which is also pretty ridiculous but effective if done succesfully. I do not have anything against 1h+shield being countered by horsemen to some extent, but I'd much rather have it with rider actually having skill to lance or slash me down instead of getting trampled over repeatedly :D
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 02, 2011, 02:53:06 pm
In my opinion horsemen should have possibility to take at least the following setups that currently take 4 slots:

Bow + 2 sets of arrows + decent (1 slot) sidearm = currently 4
Lance + 1h + shield = currently 4

Slot system would remove both options. HAs going without a decent melee weapon or with only one stack of arrows I could understand, but nerfing that lancer setup I would be unable to understand.

If you want to balance horses, I believe you either need to revamp the equipment system enough to make 1 slot lances balanced (they'd be pretty good 1 slot spears for infantry if they were 1 slot) or you need to balance it by making cavalry characters sacrifice more for becoming cavalry.

EDIT: Also, seriously, current bump system is retarded. As 1h/shield infantry in 40ish body armor a lone armored horseman with a shield can just trample me a few times to get a kill. To survive I need to make perfect stabs with speedbonus to the horse a few times to get it down and then kill the unharmed rider who was just holding shield up before in infantry combat. Usually horsemen gladly don't risk their horses and if they're bad they can be jump-stabbed down which is also pretty ridiculous but effective if done succesfully. I do not have anything against 1h+shield being countered by horsemen to some extent, but I'd much rather have it with rider actually having skill to lance or slash me down instead of getting trampled over repeatedly :D
Make the lesser horses (all light apart from arab and courser) be 0 slot and make the couch-only lances (they cant stab, even on ground) 1 slot. You want a heavy lance and backup weapon (polearm or 1h+shield), go light horse. You want a heavy horse, lance and backup weapon you get couch only. I think this balances the cav.

Also HA usually take Bow +3 stacks of arrows and then whine when they run out and the enemy wont "give" them a melee weapon. Now they can max take a bow and 2 stacks, meaning they can also get a 0 slot melee weapon.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 02, 2011, 06:14:59 pm
NERF CAV NERF CAV NERF CAV

But really, horses taking slots is singularly one of the most stupid fucking suggestions I've ever heard (no offense to OP). You're nerfing the rider, not the horse in this instance. When Mr. bundle of sticks-lancer is astride his great, winged death-machine he will still be capable of kicking all of your asses, regardless of whether he carries a fucking sword at his hip. This suggestion will only hurt HA's, who are already bleeding from the rectum, and thrower cav.

Nowadays the problem seems to be a large amount of elephant cavalry romping about the battlefield. That they're hard to kill is understandable, given their immense (IMMENSE) cost, however recently there have been SO MANY of them, probably as a result of their lowered riding requirement.

-Increase difficulty for plated death machines.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: PhantomZero on October 02, 2011, 06:22:46 pm
WOOT ? I got 53 body armor and loose quite a bit of hp when a courser or destrier bumps me. Not speaking of the overused armored horses.

I don't really believe you.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 02, 2011, 06:36:50 pm
idea already suggested, not implemented...
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: ToxicKilla on October 02, 2011, 07:11:20 pm
This is stoopid.
If a horse took 1 slot, then you couldn't have a proper knight loadout like I always do.

Sword- 1 slot
Shield- 1 slot
Lance- 2 slot
Long Dagger- 0 slot

I'd either have to take a lance or a sword. I'd take no horse.

*snip*

Nowadays the problem seems to be a large amount of elephant cavalry romping about the battlefield. That they're hard to kill is understandable, given their immense (IMMENSE) cost, however recently there have been SO MANY of them, probably as a result of their lowered riding requirement.

-Increase difficulty for plated death machines.

I think the actual reason for this may be people re-speccing once they reach level 26, and riding there plated death machines of doom every single round without having to worry about upkeep.
I used to have a champion charger, all it did was eat my cash and actually didn't get me any more kills per round because of it's slow speed and low turning speeds.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 02, 2011, 11:46:34 pm
It is starting to really feel like you guys do not want to debate about the ENTIRE proposal. I hear either one person reading, Buff, and flipping out about it, or one person reading Slot, and flipping out about it.

This entire idea would require a large change to the balancing of horse stats, but these suggestions are not entirely ludiscrous as many of you are proposing.

I have played quite a few horse class characters, I'm guessing around 20 or so, and probably over 100 infantry based classes. (I took heavy advantage of skip the fun back in the day) And I noticed that horse archers were ruined by this severe armor degradation to your aim. I also noticed that people on plated chargers didn't necesarrily have a consequence to them riding it OTHER than its cost. This cost not only made rich players extremely powerful, (due to they are the only ones who can afford this machine) but it also made it so that no new player can ever hope to ride one until they have played for 300+ hours.

As for this slot system ruining your build of lance, shield, sword. We can't have a horsemen running around on a plated charger with 2 shields turtled up on him and stomping around the whole damn place, that is just rediculous. There are many accounts where I see naked peasants riding a plated charger turtles up with shields....And let's face it, if I were new to this game and saw that crap, I would be discouraged from playing due to the sheer stupidity of it.

I understand many of you like to read 1 line and flip about it, but the goal  of this game is to have fun, and the system as I currently see is preventing players from using the full "fun" potential of horses.

Horse archers can finally look cool again with a little bit of armor, but they will have reduced quivers when using a higher rated horse (due to slots). Knights can no longer ride a tank, get the horse killed, and still be a death machine with all of their current equips that they had while mounted.

There needs to be an alternative consequence to riding a horse, other than the generic "it costs more so rich players can have fun." A class is not something you should have to require an alternate expense account for, and it should also not be a grandmaster class when it is aqcuired.

It's not like I have been playing this game for 20minutes, and I raged at horses, or liked horses or something. I just see that there is alot more potential for a balanced class, that can be playable to a more broad avenue of players.

These are not personally feeling towards horses, this is a response to the multiple horse balancing issues that have been going on for well over a year.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 03, 2011, 12:00:24 am
Hey! I came with an answer that took in context everything you mentioned! Give me some credit!
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 03, 2011, 12:01:33 am
Hey! I came with an answer that took in context everything you mentioned! Give me some credit!

You did, and you are a pimp for doing so.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 03, 2011, 03:40:22 am
Sorry but I completely miss your point here... You want to nerf heavy cav and some lighter cav to hell and buff horse archers? What is the point to use heavy, slow (armored ones) and expensive horse that will make your wallet bleed if you can not even gain anything by using them? Not to mention that it is ridicilously difficult to couch with Plated charger for example. Heavy cav is not op even if it might seem so sometimes. Charger for example is so slow that the rider confronts difficulties when he accidentally goes near ranged (they shoot the rider like it is the last day in heaven. Horse does not die but what does the player do with it when he is dead). Also lighter cav usually rape heavy cav too because the heavy horses are so slow and clumsy. Unarmored horses like courser, die quite fast after few hits and it would not be really fair to let riders to be killed only because they couldn't carry a weapon to defend themselves (not to mention that after dehorsing you will be lying on the ground for some time already and probably got hit once or twice).

All cav does not use shields. If you use shield as lancer cav you kinda get penalty for getting shieldskill to your build and you have to make some compromises (like in any other class). With this I point out that non-shield using cav still can have one extra weapon even if they have 1 slot horse and 2 slot lance so your suggestion would nerf shield cav more even after they have made compromises in their build. 1H/pole cav hybrids would dissappear instanty and the variety suffer. Pure 1H bumpslashers would enjoy this system. I think that this system would increase the amount of 1h cav radically because they would be the last ones truely effective on horseback and on the foot while using any horse they want in the start.

Do you think HA is not effective enough now? Well think again... Just come and join some server and call for the Santa Squad and I think we are more than eager to demonstrate you what they can do. Also look at some dedicated HA players. They are really a pain in the arse for enemy cav and others as well.

Oh and the thing you are referring to be "the rich guys using plated charger all the time", is actually people exploiting that feature which allows 1 generation characters to have no upkeep until level 26. Trust me, if someone has a lot of gold he/she probably uses it to buy heirlooms rather than for using that shitty horse all the time... Also why doesn't one deserve to do that after grinding the money with using cheaper gear first? The upkeep system is not a joke and the gold will vanish sooner or later if you keep using too expensive stuff all the time  8-)

So answer to your original post:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 03, 2011, 04:51:01 am
"You want to nerf heavy cav and some lighter cav to hell and buff horse archers?"

It won't buff HA because they will have limited quivers. I want overall stats for horses increased, I do think that the armor penalty for HA is a bit much atm as well.

"All cav does not use shields"

Go to siege server, watch the plated chargers.

 "is actually people exploiting that feature which allows 1 generation characters to have no upkeep until level 26."

It was still the same even before the upkeep patch. By the way, the premise of my idea was to also REDUCE the cost of the horses as well, due to the wallet bleeding etc.

Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 03, 2011, 05:48:01 am
"It won't buff HA because they will have limited quivers. I want overall stats for horses increased, I do think that the armor penalty for HA is a bit much atm as well."

Why to raise horses stats? Do they die too easilly?

"Go to siege server, watch the plated chargers."

I play siege sometimes and usually the cav is not really effective there. Are you NA player? I have not seen this too much on EU siege and I don't know about NA because I don't play on those servers. Even on battle server, I usually laugh at the plated chargers when I go harrass them with my courser.

"It was still the same even before the upkeep patch. By the way, the premise of my idea was to also REDUCE the cost of the horses as well, due to the wallet bleeding etc."

 To me you sound like you are butthurt because someone has played with cheap gear and has the gold to use something you can't afford to use and therefore you would love it if the plated charger (or whatever you like) would be cheaper. How would your suggestion "balance" things if that monster gets any cheaper? And wouldn't 1h cav be ridicilously OP with this slot system? Especially with plated charger which is good horse for them and it never dies. Also you wanted stats increased so this one specific horse would be the ultimate immortal panzerwagen of destruction. How can you fit things like "balanced", "increased stats" and "lowered price" with the same topic where you whine about something being op? (I suppose because you were bitching about those plated chargers). I understand your slot suggestion and that makes you a lobbyist for 1H cavalry. You can't favor one specific type of cavalry over another like that. Atleast in my opinion.

-ร๏ภ ๏Ŧ ๏๔เภ
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 03, 2011, 08:49:20 am
"To me you sound like you are butthurt because someone has played with cheap gear"

Money has never been an issue with me, this is strictly about balance so stop attacking my character.

This isn't Whining either, I am SIMPLY TRYING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE THAT HORSES HAVE HAD ISSUES REGARDING BALANCING.

Stop drawing out assumptions.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Elmokki on October 03, 2011, 09:52:30 am
Make the lesser horses (all light apart from arab and courser) be 0 slot and make the couch-only lances (they cant stab, even on ground) 1 slot. You want a heavy lance and backup weapon (polearm or 1h+shield), go light horse. You want a heavy horse, lance and backup weapon you get couch only. I think this balances the cav.

Also HA usually take Bow +3 stacks of arrows and then whine when they run out and the enemy wont "give" them a melee weapon. Now they can max take a bow and 2 stacks, meaning they can also get a 0 slot melee weapon.

This sounds fairly reasonable. HAs would get slightly screwed but I guess it could be compensated with something. Cavalry would still be able to perform decently.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Vibe on October 03, 2011, 09:56:43 am
Explain to me how giving horses 1 slot is going to change the things for lance cav (2 slot lance, 1 slot optional shield) or 1h cav (1 slot 1h, 1 slot shield)?

That's right, it won't.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 03, 2011, 12:09:18 pm
"To me you sound like you are butthurt because someone has played with cheap gear"

Money has never been an issue with me, this is strictly about balance so stop attacking my character.

This isn't Whining either, I am SIMPLY TRYING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE THAT HORSES HAVE HAD ISSUES REGARDING BALANCING.

Stop drawing out assumptions.

How adorable. That is the only part of my text you are commenting? Why don't you answer my questions? I asked you to tell me why should horse stats get raised? What is wrong with the ones we recently have?
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 03, 2011, 03:43:27 pm
This sounds fairly reasonable. HAs would get slightly screwed but I guess it could be compensated with something. Cavalry would still be able to perform decently.
Thank you.

As the OP mentioned, the HA's should get a slight buff. I say make the HA skill only require 3 agi again. That would mena they would use more points in it (losing other skills) AND get more accurate from horseback. I also think that HA reduces your standing accuracy (NOT native, but cRPG added) so it would also make them more different from foot archers. And this would also mean that they could take a 0 slot melee weapon without being penalized for it. Most HA now take a bow and 3 quivers, which makes taking a melee weapon a very bad choice (they need the extra ammo because of the bad accuracy when moving) but now they can without feeling they lost something.

And now to the schmerpy part:

@Odin:
Ok, wall of text. Let's see what your points are:

1: You claim OP wants to nerf both heavy AND light cav.
2: You claim there is no reason to use expensive horses if you don't get anything from them.
3: You claim heavy cav is not OP and couching with them is difficult.
4: You say armoured horses are so slow that it doesn't matter how strong they are since riders die immediately by ranged etc, because of their slow speed.
5: You claim light horses rape heavy horses.
6: Then you say light horses die easily and people should be able to take a backup weapon.
7: Not all cav use shield, and that shield cav would be at a disadvantage in this since the non-shield cav have 1 extra slot.
8: You claim 1h/pole cav would disappear if these changes came.
9: You claim this would lead to more 1h cav since they would not be that affected by the changes.
10: You claim HA is still very effective and that they do not need a buff.
11: Then you claim that the people riding 24/7 heavy cav are the "respec abusers".

Ok, now for what I think about it:

1: Ok, straight out of OP:
(click to show/hide)
Let's see. Reduce price (buff), raise horse stats (buff), increase HA efficiency (buff), make all horses except sumpter take 1 slot (HUGE nerf). As I see it, this is a TRADEOFF and not a NERF. But I'm gonna agree with you and say that overall, this would make horses worse (although easier to use from the price drop).
So yes, this is a bit too much. And that's why I have come with other suggestions in this thread. Please feel free to read them.

2: I agree with what you are saying. The heavy horses gives you way too little compared to their price. If I could choose regardless of money I would take a armoured horse every time, but compared to how much they cost, I agree that it's BS to take them instead. This is why I agree to the suggestion in OP. Increase the horse stats. In one of my earlier posts I said that the 1 slot for horses should only be for armoured horses and arab/courser. I think this would be the best. It would mean that you could still take decent horses and use all 4 slots on weapons, while taking a "dedicated horseman horse" would leave you with only 3. The increased stats should then be for the armoured horses only. Buffing their armour and speed to get closer (or about the same) as the 0 slot horses. That would make the 1 slot horses be either faster/mobile than 0 slot horses (courser/arab) or armoured/stronger than 0 slot horses (heavy cav).

This would make 3 groups of horses. Horses for hybrids, horses for dedicated lancers and horses for dedicated heavy cav.

3: Couching with the Plated Charger is difficult. Mameluke is tricky and the rest is about OK. For any fancy riding/couching you would need an unarmoured one. So, guess we agree there. About them being OP. Well, compared to the other horses they are OP. The extra survivability makes them much more useful than other horses. The exception to this is the PC which, I agree, is so slow that you are MUCH easier to kill while riding it. Still not sure if they are OP, but I can understand how it is frustrating for other players to fight it.

4: Herpa derpa I talked about this in 3 xD. Gonna leave it for ze lulz.

5: This is something I am completely ok with. The best way to take out a heavy horse (apart from pike) should be light cavalry outflanking, outsmarting and outriding the heavy cav. Heavy cav should be the best anti-infantry and straight on charge. Light cavalry should be able to get the heavy if they ride better than him. Currently this is how it is. Lots of times I've been able to outride coursers/arabs with my warhorse by simply being a smarter/better rider. It is still easier for a light horse rider to outmanouver a heavy horse, but with skill the heavy cav can still make them miss again and again and again. But generally. Light horses should be able to outride heavy horses, but heavy horses should be better against infantry and straight on charges. Not sure how to make it more like that, but currently this is mainly how it is.

6: Well, that's the bad thing with light cav. You get more mobility and speed, but when you fuck up you fuck up. No 2nd chance here. BUT! As I said, the 1 slot only for the "good" horses would still make the "normal" horse-horsemen able to fight properly on the ground. Does this sound fair/ok with you?

7: Yeah, this would be more friendly towards no shield cav than shield cav. The 1 slot for only top tier horses would kinda help with this, but ANOTHER suggestion I came with was to make the "couch-only" lances 1 slot. This would then give the shield cav a weapon to use while still getting some backup, while they still wouldn't be able to go full top gear without a drawback. What I think would happen is that shield cav would go for heavy horses and focus on infantry, while the no shield cav would go for arab/courser and be Lancers.*

8: Well, with some of the suggestion I added, I say the 1h/pole would get some roles there too. I'm a 1h/pole and I would change between Lancer and Heavy cav, depending on what I wanted to do.

9: 1h cav is currently the "weakest" of the horsemen, maybe apart from throwing cav. I really don't think there would be THAT many of them. Maybe just with OPs changes, but with the ones I added it would also be a place for polearm and 2h cav. HA would also again be better if they got a small buff. Check the beginning of this post for more info.

10: You are right. They still are very effective. What I want though, is to change them a bit. Give them less ammo and no penalty for using a mellee (0slot) weapon.

11: Most of the "constant PC" are those abusers, but there are also some who are just good at trading. Not talking about selling looms for gold, but buying a loomed item cheap and selling it high. I know Daergar have made loads of money doing that and he never sold any of his own looms.

Now, I think I got all your points there and since you are such a follower of "always address everything somebody wrote" (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,17272.msg248013.html#msg248013), I expect you to do the same with me. Use the numbers to make it easier. If you don't care to answer I'm gonna get offended and it would show that you are a hypocrite little fuck. Which you obviously are not... are you?

* Lancers are designated anti-cav horsemen. Something like courser (1slot), heavy lance (2slot), quarterstaff (1slot), maybe a 1h instead of quarterstaff. They sacrifice foot gear for great anti-cav opportunity.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 04, 2011, 12:04:27 am
Zapper- "1 slot for horses should only be for armoured horses and arab/courser."

Would you mind if I put that in parenthesis and cite you for it? Edit*-(in the OP) I think this would be a much better idea then the current one, due to people seeing rouncey and other low cost horses inferior to the sumpter.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Siiem on October 04, 2011, 12:10:04 am
Cavalry is still ezmode, no buffing, ever. If anything a complete rework of how horses work in this game would be very appreciated. I can dream :(
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 04, 2011, 12:52:22 am
Zapper- "1 slot for horses should only be for armoured horses and arab/courser."

Would you mind if I put that in parenthesis and cite you for it? Edit*-(in the OP) I think this would be a much better idea then the current one, due to people seeing rouncey and other low cost horses inferior to the sumpter.
No problem. Thanks for asking.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 04, 2011, 11:20:20 am
i dunno.
i ride on ma horsie and i already use all 4 slots.
the lance takes 2 slots, and i have danish great which also takes two slots.
This would really fuck over the lancer/2h hybrids.
Maybe if you make the horse 1 slot, make the lances 1slot also? they are usually not very good infantry weapons due to their slow speed.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: B3RS3RK on October 04, 2011, 01:00:14 pm
Normal horses(Rouncey,Palfrey,Sumpter) 1 slot, rest 2 slots.Balanced cav /thread


Op has awesome idea.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 04, 2011, 02:07:49 pm
tbh, i would rather pay alot of money for upkeep than be even more reduced in my weapon choices. If anything riding a horse should give you extra slots :)
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 04, 2011, 08:04:48 pm
tbh, i would rather pay alot of money for upkeep than be even more reduced in my weapon choices. If anything riding a horse should give you extra slots :)
I just remembered the suggestion about making horses able to carry gear. So make it so you had to retrieve the weapon from the horse or something. Dunno exactly HOW that would work, but it could be interesting.

Also to Odin:

THE FUCK DUDE!?!? You wont even BOTHER to reply? Guess you ARE a douchebag who just wanted to whine and not actually discussing this suggestion. Or maybe I just beat the crap out of you, internet style! Forum victory, BEEYOTCH!
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 05, 2011, 12:26:26 pm
Normal horses(Rouncey,Palfrey,Sumpter) 1 slot, rest 2 slots.Balanced cav /thread


Op has awesome idea.

this means any cav has to be dedicated cav, what about hybrids?
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: B3RS3RK on October 05, 2011, 04:55:18 pm
No need to be dedicated.They can still be Hybrids, they just need to use 1slot horses and watch their weapon choice.

Also dont you think it´s a bit mutch to expect killing all idiots with lances first until your horse dies, then come up, draw your MW Greatsword and beat the crap out of the rest from behind?

This would make Cav just balanced.If you want to be a heavy knight with plate armor and a Plate horse, you can still be that.With 1h and Shield.If you want a Lance AND a shield, go take a worse horse...
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 05, 2011, 05:40:11 pm
No need to be dedicated.They can still be Hybrids, they just need to use 1slot horses and watch their weapon choice.

Also dont you think it´s a bit mutch to expect killing all idiots with lances first until your horse dies, then come up, draw your MW Greatsword and beat the crap out of the rest from behind?

This would make Cav just balanced.If you want to be a heavy knight with plate armor and a Plate horse, you can still be that.With 1h and Shield.If you want a Lance AND a shield, go take a worse horse...
uhm... okay, you said "if you want to be a heavy knight with plate armor and a plate horse.
Well, a courser is not a plate horse, yet it still apparently takes 2 slots. That leaves room for exactly one heavy lance. Even if the lance is reduced to a 1 slot. It leaves room for only shitty 2h. My current equipment is medium armor + courser/arabian (depends on map) + danish great + heavy lance.
The only way this would be feasible is if any unarmored horse (including destrier and courser) would be 1 slot and heavy lances also became one slot.

I don't want a shield, i just want my lance and my sword on my horse. This doesn't seem like overtly much equipment.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 05, 2011, 06:51:03 pm
uhm... okay, you said "if you want to be a heavy knight with plate armor and a plate horse.
Well, a courser is not a plate horse, yet it still apparently takes 2 slots. That leaves room for exactly one heavy lance. Even if the lance is reduced to a 1 slot. It leaves room for only shitty 2h. My current equipment is medium armor + courser/arabian (depends on map) + danish great + heavy lance.
The only way this would be feasible is if any unarmored horse (including destrier and courser) would be 1 slot and heavy lances also became one slot.

I don't want a shield, i just want my lance and my sword on my horse. This doesn't seem like overtly much equipment.
Well a heavy lance AND a greatsword is kinda OP when you can also take a good horse.

That's why the suggestion I made makes more sense. Courser/Arab/Destrier and Armoured horses 1 slot, rest 0 slot. Heavy/normal/light lance remains 2 slot, great/jousting lance becomes 1.

If you want both H. Lance and Greatsword, take a lower light horse.
If you want a good light horse or armoured horse, take a H. Lance and a bad 2h (bad when dehorsed) OR take a G. Lance and a Greatsword (not as good on horse but full fighting chance when horse is lost).

It also works the same for 1h+shield and polearm. You want to be good at both ground and on horse, you have to take a "lesser" horse. You want to get a good horse you have to sacrifice a bit in either footfighting or horsefighting.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Vingnir the Wanderer on October 06, 2011, 12:53:59 am
You want to be good at both ground and on horse, you have to take a "lesser" horse. You want to get a good horse you have to sacrifice a bit in either footfighting or horsefighting.

We already take a hit in wpf, stats and skill points, and crpg money.

You can rest assured, when my 1h/p-arm/shield guy gets knocked off his horse, he's going to have probably less ability points, defenitely less wpf, and less iron flesh, than the 'no horse 1 weapon build guy', waiting to smash his head in, as he slides off his horse...

So your statement of 'bieng good at both'  is not true, its bieng average at both, + a horse which SHOULD be a terrifyingly affective asset on the battlefield. -Which is already reflected in their upkeep costs, especially the ones with horsebump viability.

But once on foot, unless your opponent has done something to multi-specialize himself, mathamatically according to the system, The hybrid actually has 'less than average' stats.

So no, your wrong about the whole 'good at both' thing, (which your using as the basis for your argument)

And no, making horses taking slots, will simply kill a multitude of horse classes.

This is not the way to do it, defenitely not.

 

Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 06, 2011, 03:37:36 am
Just saw the most rediculous thing.....Black armor, with a lance, spammitar, and a shield, AND MOUNTED. Stuff like that needs to be looked into, he was basically unstoppable.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 06, 2011, 08:42:57 am
how the hell is a greatsword and a lance op?
carrying 2 weapons that have no addons (like arrows or bolts) does NOT seem like alot.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Jarlek on October 06, 2011, 07:05:17 pm
We already take a hit in wpf, stats and skill points, and crpg money.

You can rest assured, when my 1h/p-arm/shield guy gets knocked off his horse, he's going to have probably less ability points, defenitely less wpf, and less iron flesh, than the 'no horse 1 weapon build guy', waiting to smash his head in, as he slides off his horse...

So your statement of 'bieng good at both'  is not true, its bieng average at both, + a horse which SHOULD be a terrifyingly affective asset on the battlefield. -Which is already reflected in their upkeep costs, especially the ones with horsebump viability.

But once on foot, unless your opponent has done something to multi-specialize himself, mathamatically according to the system, The hybrid actually has 'less than average' stats.

So no, your wrong about the whole 'good at both' thing, (which your using as the basis for your argument)

And no, making horses taking slots, will simply kill a multitude of horse classes.

This is not the way to do it, defenitely not.

 

So you don't think reducing horse costs, making couch only lances 1 slot and thus balancing the different horse classes a good thing? I would rather have that than what we have now, where the h.lance is so OP compared to the rest of them.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 06, 2011, 11:01:53 pm
how the hell is a greatsword and a lance op?
carrying 2 weapons that have no addons (like arrows or bolts) does NOT seem like alot.

It's alot though if they have they are on an armored horse with a lance, and they are a super infantry in black armor with a greatsword. It makes them able to do anything but shoot/throw, which they won't even need because archers will avoid armored horses/infantry like the plague. (Unless they are some strategic squad trying to help the team, like Fallen)
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Kafein on October 06, 2011, 11:20:18 pm
It's alot though if they have they are on an armored horse with a lance, and they are a super infantry in black armor with a greatsword. It makes them able to do anything but shoot/throw, which they won't even need because archers will avoid armored horses/infantry like the plague. (Unless they are some strategic squad trying to help the team, like Fallen)


"super infantry in black armor" you mean super tortoise unable to swing ?

"archers will avoid armored horses/infantry like the plague." Archers will still shoot at those horses when safe. And on foot, a black armor guy usually dies in 4-5 arrows. A little dozen maximum. But anyway he actually dies faster than a light armored inf because he is unable to dodge anything with that much armor (don't forget, cav = at least 5 less skillpoints, many already decided to follow the pure cav route, 0 athletics). Not to mention he will never catch any archer with his run speed.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 07, 2011, 03:44:32 am
Kafein-  "he actually dies faster than a light armored inf "

I do not entirely agree with this, a majority of black armor players I see can have no issue with dodging, and taking hits from arrows. Goretooth for instance.

*Edit- I also have played Agi char, and Str armor char. Str armor is MUCH less frequently shot at by arrows. In my current agi build, I am targeted when ever in sight.
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on October 07, 2011, 10:36:42 am
if we make horses take slots, can we also make armour take slots? :P
Title: Re: [Big Balance] Horses, THE ANSWER?!?!?!
Post by: Erathsmus on October 07, 2011, 08:10:20 pm
if we make horses take slots, can we also make armour take slots? :P

I would suggest fractioned slots for all equipment (4/3 slots for a certain weapon) so that armor and horses and everything would be counted as some sort of slots.

But, I am pretty sure if I posted that, a large portion of the crpg community would try to find my house and break my computer or legs.