cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: erlk0nig on September 27, 2011, 05:34:57 am

Title: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: erlk0nig on September 27, 2011, 05:34:57 am
So I've been powering through to 31, and now that I'm at 28 I suddenly wonder why I would want to do it all over again? 3% increase in experience and miniscule improvements to gear, that cost more to repair because of it, doesn't seem like much incentive. anyone wanna share their reasons with me?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Kryser on September 27, 2011, 05:40:09 am
upkeep doesn't increase newbie.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Anwyl on September 27, 2011, 05:55:01 am
Obviously it's so you can be a dick to all the people who haven't retired.

point and case:
upkeep doesn't increase newbie.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: erlk0nig on September 27, 2011, 06:03:14 am
I thought upkeep on loomed items increased? If it doesn't that makes it slightly more worth it. Ever so little tho.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 06:06:37 am
I thought upkeep on loomed items increased?

No it does not.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: PieParadox on September 27, 2011, 06:13:41 am
Many people retire just so they can try out new builds, while some actually enjoy leveling back up (POOPHAMMER).

However, the equipment stat increases are not miniscule. They can make a large difference when you have several masterworked items. But you'll still be fine without them.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: erlk0nig on September 27, 2011, 06:31:34 am
thanks : )
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 07:50:37 am
To be completely honest, heirlooms DO matter, especially Masterworked/Lordly (+3), even more if you loom armor.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Smoothrich on September 27, 2011, 08:09:26 am
looms are underpowered *rolls around in lordly armor set with champion horse and mw lance/mw greatswords, killing things with ease*

Basically you can crutch on looms to make your builds even more efficient.  Champion horse means less riding for more speed.  Masterwork weapons is basically an extra level of power strike and a few levels of weapon master.  Lordly armor is like 1000 points of iron flesh.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 08:10:47 am
Lordly armor is like 1000 points of iron flesh.

This. Loom transitional and you get Black Armor :)
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: robert_namo on September 27, 2011, 08:13:51 am
15 gens later, I get 7100 xp at x5 now. The extra 2k helps in my grind to lvl 33. Also, more money if you sell items/ loom points.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Kenji on September 27, 2011, 08:14:21 am
This. Loom transitional and you get Black Armor :)
So I guess if you loom black armor you get Goretooth :mrgreen:?

Lame joke, I know.

Op,
To fund the astronomical upkeep of a fully plated tincan on a tincan horse, sell them loom points.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: justjr on September 27, 2011, 08:15:23 am
Basically I love to level up, dont like to being stuck in a level nor the big gap above lvl 30.
And I like to try builds, and mostly to PLAY.
Oh, and looms as well.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tungsten on September 27, 2011, 08:19:14 am
This. Loom transitional and you get Black Armor :)
Honestly, it seems like loomed gear is better than it's equal armour counter-part.

Wearing Lordly Banded, it really does seem like people glance more and do less damage than when I was wearing Corazinna (Both 52 body).
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Braeden on September 27, 2011, 08:31:00 am
Well, it weighs less, making your speed that much more effective.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Corwin on September 27, 2011, 09:06:49 am
The point of retiring is not getting bored out of your mind with one build. And looms make difference. It may take you couple of generations to see that, but they do.
My problem is that I don't know why retire AFTER I obtain all equipment I need, i.e. 5-6 loomed items. 
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Varyag on September 27, 2011, 09:27:21 am
I retired 11 times so I can 1shot some annoying mofos with my MW arbalest and MW steel bolts. Some folks retire 20 times so they can wear their armor and be invisible. However, after my 12 retirement I will stop that practice.

Latest rumor I overheard in Dhirim Tavern: if you retire 113 times, you get your own flying carpet as a bonus.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Bryggan on September 27, 2011, 09:34:41 am
I think that's why they made it an option.  Some people are happy with the status quo, others want to move on.  I'm one sikill point off my favourite build, so I will build again: but this time with slightly better gear.  Personally, I think they should make retirement mandatory, say after level 35 you lose 1 att point (your choice), plus whatever skillpoints are associated (obviously not your choice).  Kinda like real life.  Of course I assume it would take three to four years to get that level, but if they made the exp per level necessary the same, say after level 25 (when you first might kill), then it would all be good.  Or so thinks I.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: SchokoSchaf on September 27, 2011, 09:59:44 am
Many people retire just so they can try out new builds, while some actually enjoy leveling back up (POOPHAMMER).
This.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Oberyn on September 27, 2011, 10:12:27 am
After triple looming both horse and heavy lance, I've only been using retirements as a loom point selling device to mantain my lavish cav lifestyle.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Phazey on September 27, 2011, 10:52:16 am
Jup, heirlooms bring in a lot of money. You can sell your heirloom points for what, between 300 000 and 400 000 gold?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 10:53:04 am
Loom points go for 400k+, unless you're selling them to friends cheaper.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on September 27, 2011, 11:47:41 am
My experience used to be that heirlooms make a difference, but only on certain weapons.

Masterwork stones? Good, in fact to me they make a massive difference to normal ones.

But something like a fully heirloomed great maul? Bit pointless, if I recall that one goes from 8.0 weight and 43 damage to 8.5 weight and 47 damage.

Generally if you are using such a weapon you will have at least a good degree of strength on your build and the incremental increase in the stats just isnt worth it.

Better to heirloom the heavy armour most people would probably be wearing using a build with that weapon.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Corwin on September 27, 2011, 11:57:57 am
My experience used to be that heirlooms make a difference, but only on certain weapons.
That goes without saying.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on September 27, 2011, 11:59:27 am
That goes without saying.

I dunno, given how some people on CRPG act im often under the impression of a distinct lack of thought going on.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 11:59:53 am
After getting a +3 weapon and +1 plate mittens, I haven't retired.. I think I've respecced from 31 to 30 about 4-5 times now. It's a lot of fun. Lets you try any build you like from high levels, and with the marketplace you can get any weapon you want.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 12:14:22 pm
I retired 11 times so I can 1shot some annoying mofos with my MW arbalest and MW steel bolts. Some folks retire 20 times so they can wear their armor and be invisible. However, after my 12 retirement I will stop that practice.

Latest rumor I overheard in Dhirim Tavern: if you retire 113 times, you get your own flying carpet as a bonus.


Bullshit. 20 times? Who do you actually know who retired "20 times"? Unless you've got your character sitting on some leeching server I don't know about sucking up xp and gold while you're at work, I highly doubt anyone has retired this many times. I've been playing for about a month and am just now getting to 31.

This game just feels like one big grind for the smallest amount of reward possible. Running around in peasent gear saving up your gold getting killed by a tin cans all day who seem to have unlimited funds to pay for their upkeep costs. Upkeep costs don't add anything to the game and they don't remove inequality between older and newer players, as older players can afford the upkeep costs and newer players can't. Older players can afford the masterwork / lordly armors while newer player can't. The most fun I've had are on my "skip the fun" characters, where you get to skip the boring ass grind and make a fun character. Calling a grind fun doesn't make it fun. It's still a fucking grind.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 12:16:05 pm

Bullshit. 20 times? Who do you actually know who retired "20 times"? Unless you've got your character sitting on some leeching server I don't know about sucking up xp and gold while you're at work, I highly doubt anyone has retired this many times. I've been playing for about a month and am just now getting to 31.

This game just feels like one big grind for the smallest amount of reward possible. Running around in peasent gear saving up your gold getting killed by a tin cans all day who seem to have unlimited funds to pay for their upkeep costs. Upkeep costs don't add anything to the game and they don't remove inequality between older and newer players, as older players can afford the upkeep costs and newer players can't. Older players can afford the masterwork / lordly armors while newer player can't. The most fun I've had are on my "skip the fun" characters, where you get to skip the boring ass grind and make a fun character. Calling a grind fun doesn't make it fun. It's still a fucking grind.

Retirement was faster in the older days. There ARE guys who retired way over 20 times.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 12:20:41 pm
Retirement was faster in the older days. There ARE guys who retired way over 20 times.

Not really relevant anymore though, is it?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 12:26:20 pm
Not really relevant anymore though, is it?

Still, some people retire very fast. You just need to play 24/7. I guess even once a week is possible.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 12:28:37 pm
Still, some people retire very fast. You just need to play 24/7. I guess even once a week is possible.

...wtf do the devs think this game should be wow?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 12:29:58 pm
...wtf do the devs think this game should be wow?

Most people don't do it that fast and the mod/game is still mostly skill based. So no, this is still far from WoW.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 12:36:03 pm
Most people don't do it that fast and the mod/game is still mostly skill based. So no, this is still far from WoW.

Skill is only a factor after gear and ping are taken into account. A boring ass is grind is still a boring ass grind, and that's what the economics of the game force you to do, grind for better gear so you're eventually not a one shot target anymore. Sure it's fun for the my old friends who have been playing since day 1 on their plated charger tin can set ups with 1 million+ gold, but for newer players it gets old quick.

Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 12:38:01 pm
Skill is only a factor after gear and ping are taken into account. A boring ass is grind is still a boring ass grind, and that's what the economics of the game force you to do, grind for better gear so you're eventually not a one shot target anymore. Sure it's fun for the my old friends who have been playing since day 1 on their plated charger tin can set ups with 1 million+ gold, but for newer players it gets old quick.

Are you saying that you can't get heavy armor and a decent amount of gold to afford upkeep in a few days? Also skill>gear in this game, sweetheart.
Boring ass grind? I play the game because I like to play it, not to grind. From my perspective, there is no grind.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 12:43:47 pm
Are you saying that you can't get heavy armor and a decent amount of gold to afford upkeep in a few days? Also skill>gear in this game, sweetheart.
Boring ass grind? I play the game because I like to play it, not to grind. From my perspective, there is no grind.

You forgot ping.

How much gold do you have? How many loomed items do you have? Be honest.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 12:45:48 pm
You forgot ping.

How much gold do you have? How many loomed items do you have? Be honest.

Only way to make ping a non-factor would be to make the game completely non skillbased.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 12:46:22 pm
You forgot ping.

How much gold do you have? How many loomed items do you have? Be honest.

Yes, I forgot ping. Ping is a strong factor in this game, especially in duels with skilled people.
I'm currently at 70k gold and three +3 (masterworks/lordly) items. Generation 6, retired 4 times in the new system, without the mega gen xp bonuses.

Not sure what all this could tell you, though.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 01:02:10 pm
Yes, I forgot ping. Ping is a strong factor in this game, especially in duels with skilled people.
I'm currently at 70k gold and three +3 (masterworks/lordly) items. Generation 6, retired 4 times in the new system, without the mega gen xp bonuses.

Not sure what all this could tell you, though.

Just sayin' you have a lot of gear that other people are still grinding to get. It's much more rewarding when your gear is already superior to everyone else's. A long ass grind doesn't seem that bad when you already have the items everyone else are forced to grind for.

It would be cool if ping were less of an issue for this game, then I'd be willing to take claims about skill more seriously. But going 15/2 with a ping of 15 to me doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment when the rest of the server has a ping ranging from 80-150+.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 01:06:51 pm
No, actually, the grind is MORE rewarding when you don't already have your stuff. Obviously. Because then you have something to look forward to, and y'know, get rewarded at the end by something that matters.

You can still compete with 80 ping. 15 ping doesn't make you a superman.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 01:10:52 pm
No, actually, the grind is MORE rewarding when you don't already have your stuff. Obviously. Because then you have something to look forward to, and y'know, get rewarded at the end by something that matters.

You can still compete with 80 ping. 15 ping doesn't make you a superman.

I personally think the grind sucks when all your equipment is subpar and you're getting killed by tin cans left and right. I'd rather have weapons that give me a real chance against those tin cans, it makes the grind more interesting rather than always fighting a losing fight and having some asshole like spooksland gloating about how great he is after each kill. That kind of grind gets old fast.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 01:12:34 pm
I personally think the grind sucks when all your equipment is subpar and you're getting killed by tin cans left and right. I'd rather have weapons that give me a real chance against those tin cans, it makes the grind more interesting rather than always fighting a losing fight and having some asshole like spooksland gloating about how great he is after each kill. That kind of grind gets old fast.

Well, if you're grinding then chances are you're low level and having a couple more damage on your weapon isn't going to make a difference. If you don't have your stuff, at least you can grit your teeth and think about the awsum item you'll get if you just endure.

But, I hate the grind altogether myself, which is why I only respec now.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2011, 01:34:18 pm
15 ping doesn't make you a superman.

Of course not. But makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 01:39:02 pm
Of course not. But makes a huge difference.

Well I've never had it, but I doubt it's that huge. Sure it's a difference and I wish I had that ping, but it's not like you become a defenseless sheep if you have 50 higher ping.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2011, 01:59:11 pm
Well I've never had it, but I doubt it's that huge. Sure it's a difference and I wish I had that ping, but it's not like you become a defenseless sheep if you have 50 higher ping.

True, but you can perform some godly feints with that ping and not to mention the window to correct your blocking errors is much bigger. Also chambering.

Just sayin' you have a lot of gear that other people are still grinding to get. It's much more rewarding when your gear is already superior to everyone else's. A long ass grind doesn't seem that bad when you already have the items everyone else are forced to grind for.

What's much more rewarding is training your skills and getting better at this game, while having fun doing so. In the end, gear is not the biggest factor here.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 27, 2011, 03:17:57 pm
Best way to beat Grind: Make some kinda of HA build. HC's are better, much more rage inducing than a HA(I would know ;p), and have fun just trololololing people who bitch about the 3 WORST things in  this Game: Cav, Archery, Never getting into melee.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: PieParadox on September 27, 2011, 03:42:07 pm
Yeah grinding is annoying as hell.

But once you hit about 50k in gold, you don't have to worry about it so much really.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Phazey on September 27, 2011, 04:07:55 pm
Bullshit. 20 times? Who do you actually know who retired "20 times"?
Dozens of guys. Myself, i've retired 12 times and i have several level 28+ alts.
What you fail to realize, i think, is that some of us have been playing c-rpg for over a year. :)

I've been playing for about a month and am just now getting to 31.
Some of us can level our characters from 1 to 31 in two or three weeks.

Running around in peasent gear saving up your gold getting killed by a tin cans all day who seem to have unlimited funds to pay for their upkeep costs.
That tin can has to pay upkeep also! It would be much worse without upkeep for new players, trust me.

Older players can afford the masterwork / lordly armors while newer player can't.
Wrong: heirloomed items are not more expensive to upkeep.

Anyway, you'll have some perspective when you've played the game a bit longer. The upkeep system is a very important innovation that does help the balance between old and new players.
I agree that old players have an advantage, but that advantage isn't just because of gear or a gold stockpile. It's mostly experience and skill that make the difference. The advantage heirlooms give you is small. Also, some players kick ass with a scythe at level 15, because they are just that damned good. It's not just their gear.

There are a few mechanisms that 'help' new players. For example: you don't pay upkeep on gen 1 up to level 25 and you can make a new skip the fun character every week to try out builds.

Myself, i love retiring. It keeps the game fresh and it gives me a challenge. Picking optimal gear for my level, thinking about the economics (i earn a lot of money between level 1 and level 25, because i use lesser gear) and also changing my tactics to suit my character... all fun to me.

Ages ago, crpg did not have retirement. Everybody just kept grinding and the differences between old and new players just got bigger and bigger. You had to be 'peasant' for months, dying to plate-armored, flamberge-wielding, armored-horse-riding level 40+ characters.

Trust me, retirement is a great way to level the playing field a bit. I'm not saying heirlooms, a few hundred thousand gold and a good selection of gear doesn't give any advantage. I'm just saying it could be much worse.

And about 'the gind'. Son, just stop grinding. You will get there eventually. :wink:
Focus on enjoying the game, focus on winning, focus on trying to organize your team into a good fighting group instead (i wrote a guide on group tactics ages ago, check it out, it's in the Guides forum). Set small personal goals.

For me, it sometimes feels a bit of a grind between level 25 and level 30, because i'm using reasonable gear but my character is slightly sub-par. But once i reach level 30, that level just flies by and then i get to retire again.

If you're worried about money, consider selling your first heirloom point. It brings in 400 000 gold or more, if you're lucky. Or if you don't prefer using the more expensive items, instead heirloom something you use a lot. Or don't retire at all. Consider making alts. You can kick ass without heirlooms. Instead, focus on getting the right build, the right equipment and most importantly, the right play style.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, look at the game with a more long term perspective. It's a game you play many months. Don't grind, instead, try to enjoy the challenges the game gives you. Know it's not fair... know some of your opponents have an advantage... the victory should be even sweeter. :)
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Polobow on September 27, 2011, 04:14:43 pm
I really, REALLY hate grinding. Repetition gets boring very fast for me.

Solution: Don't grind.

I'm gen 2, loomed my torch, and i am just playing when i feel like.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Qilidj_Arslan on September 27, 2011, 04:20:10 pm
I've been playing since last august and I only retired once. With a horse archer build, low levels are a pain in the arse. My money has never been over 80k and is slowly going down since the upkeep is going up every patch. I will retire again the day it will be mandatory.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Teeth on September 27, 2011, 04:30:01 pm
I understand why people think heirloomed items cost more to upkeep. My MW Danish costs 34k if I equip it on my character site. If you think you can upkeep 40k of gear and look at the total gear costs on the site, you really get the wrong idea. I think it should just display the regular price, this is very confusing. It's not like anyone is going to sell his looms to the bank anyway.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 27, 2011, 04:36:16 pm
I understand why people think heirloomed items cost more to upkeep. My MW Danish costs 34k if I equip it on my character site. If you think you can upkeep 40k of gear and look at the total gear costs on the site, you really get the wrong idea. I think it should just display the regular price, this is very confusing. It's not like anyone is going to sell his looms to the bank anyway.

I know someone who did. He got it back when chadz gave back looms people sold to back. +1 for 50k from him since he didn't want it. Cheapest loom i ever bought.(not to mention I loomed it myself right after so it can now net me 550k :) )
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 05:33:31 pm
Fun fact: Looms matter, but player experience skill & build matter much much more.

Since the last time I played a shielder I've seen a KDR increase of .7.  The only difference between my last shielder gen and this gen is I went from +1 gloves to +3 gloves.  Do you really think +5 armor accounts for the change in kills?  Maybe marginally, but I would point to more experience as a shielder as the main contributor.

A lot of new players think that they are incredibly outmatched against all the tin cans in fully heirloomed equipment, and they have to grind hundreds of hours to match their gear in order to compete.  That's not true at all.  You can be quite effective and successful if you get close to level 30 during your first generation once you can start to get a "standard" set of mid/high end non-heirloomed gear that you are comfortable with.  If you run into one of those "fully heirloomed tin cans" (which are probably less common than you think) pierce and blunt damage will go a long way to cutting them down to size.

The biggest difference between a level 30 gen 1 char and a level 30 gen 10 char is experience (skill), far more than looms.  The sooner you accept this the sooner you'll be able to improve instead of complaining about how disadvantaged you are.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 05:59:05 pm

Bullshit. 20 times? Who do you actually know who retired "20 times"? Unless you've got your character sitting on some leeching server I don't know about sucking up xp and gold while you're at work, I highly doubt anyone has retired this many times. I've been playing for about a month and am just now getting to 31.

Plenty of people.
It was really bad before the recalc patch, Kesh for example was gen 91 and was earning 10,000 xp per tick.
After the recalc patch though, the highest was 31 or so... Still plenty of people past gen 20 though. The minority sure, but I personally know a few. Bothersome Aldryk for example. If this is the only game you play, you can retire in two weeks, or once every week if you have no job. Average of a little over 70 hours to retire (9 hours on average multiplier per million xp I think)
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: PhantomZero on September 27, 2011, 06:01:10 pm
A couple of players discovered that you could join multiple servers at once and receive full xp and gold for being in each of them, they were never punished for this but the bug was fixed.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Punisher on September 27, 2011, 06:02:55 pm
A couple of players discovered that you could join multiple servers at once and receive full xp and gold for being in each of them, they were never punished for this but the bug was fixed.

That's multiboxing and they were awarded essay bans. The ones who did it on EU at least.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Turkhammer on September 27, 2011, 06:07:25 pm
15 gens later, I get 7100 xp at x5 now. The extra 2k helps in my grind to lvl 33. Also, more money if you sell items/ loom points.

I KNEW it wasn't just skill, but is was also grind.  I feel better about myself now.  Thank you robert.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Bowl_of_Cereal on September 27, 2011, 09:03:27 pm
I think it's neat that it takes forever to get to 31. It's like how when I first started playing tin cans were people who could take meteor strikes to the face, then it lost the coolness because suddenly there were tin cans everywhere and it wasn't difficult to become one myself.

Sort of back in vanilla wow how getting a mount was considered incredible and those who didn't own mounts were peasants.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 10:15:39 pm
The next step is to get every loom you want, and then go for level 33 (though at this rate I need to gun for 34 instead)... You feel great.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Overdriven on September 27, 2011, 10:26:04 pm
I've been playing since last august and I only retired once. With a horse archer build, low levels are a pain in the arse. My money has never been over 80k and is slowly going down since the upkeep is going up every patch. I will retire again the day it will be mandatory.

I find retiring useful for the money. I got down to 10k, pretty much my lowest every, and then retired. Played peasant till level 22 or so due to HA being crap until about level 28 and stay as a foot archer till I use my champ courser. My money is now back up to about 40k and I'm still only level 23.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 27, 2011, 11:48:30 pm
Ooooh, breaking down my post and saying "wrong" after each of my sentences... I see what you did there... Do you really want to have a conversation like this? Alright... if you insist.

Dozens of guys. Myself, i've retired 12 times and i have several level 28+ alts.
What you fail to realize, i think, is that some of us have been playing c-rpg for over a year. :)
So obviously you're out of touch with what's it's like to be new in this game.

Quote
Some of us can level our characters from 1 to 31 in two or three weeks.
Do "some of us" also maintain a healthy social life and work 50-60 hours per week? 
Quote
That tin can has to pay upkeep also!
Lol, you sound like a republican trying to defend tax breaks for the wealthy.

Quote
Wrong: heirloomed items are not more expensive to upkeep.
I wasn't talking about upkeep, I was talking about buying the items second hand on the marketplace.

Quote
Anyway, you'll have some perspective when you've played the game a bit longer.
Ah, the stupid-nubs-don't-know-anything argument. Nice to see such lazy thinking from the admins.

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The upkeep system is a very important innovation that does help the balance between old and new players.
You're joking right? The inequality between old and new players is painfully obvious. Just go on any server and you'll see the same tin cans doing the same thing all day.
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I agree that old players have an advantage, but that advantage isn't just because of gear or a gold stockpile. It's mostly experience and skill that make the difference.
Lol, you're lying to yourself if you think "skill" is mostly responsible for your KD ratio. Sad to see an admin who's so naive about an online game.

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The advantage heirlooms give you is small. Also, some players kick ass with a scythe at level 15, because they are just that damned good. It's not just their gear.
Please, by all means, name these players who are crushing tin cans on plated chargers with their scythes, I'm all ears.

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There are a few mechanisms that 'help' new players. For example: you don't pay upkeep on gen 1 up to level 25 and you can make a new skip the fun character every week to try out builds.
A new player isn't someone below 25, a new player is someone who's still on their second generation and doesn't have 5+ heirloomed items. Earlier in this thread people were talking about what a big difference heirlooms make. I guess they're wrong though, eh? You know why so many players are continually respeccing to stay below 26? It's because upkeep costs are fucking excessive, ruin the fun and turn the game into a boring ass grind.

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Myself, i love retiring.
You must love doing anything when you have retired as many times as I'm guessing you have and you have accumulated such excesses in heirloomed gear and gold.

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Ages ago, crpg did not have retirement. Everybody just kept grinding and the differences between old and new players just got bigger and bigger...You had to be 'peasant' for months, dying to plate-armored, flamberge-wielding, armored-horse-riding level 40+ characters.
I played for a couple weeks when this mod was first released (been playing warband since day 1). It's still like that, it's just they have a ton of heirloomed items now instead of a couple extra levels. In order to make any gold you still have to be a peasent for months wearing shit gear and getting 1-shotted by 2h spamming heirloomed tin cans who then go on the forums and chalk it up to skill and are general dicks to newer players telling them they just need to grind more and it will all be better.

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Trust me, retirement is a great way to level the playing field a bit.
Based on my experience here the past couple weeks, you're wrong. It's a horrible leveling function.

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I'm not saying heirlooms, a few hundred thousand gold and a good selection of gear doesn't give any advantage.
Are you sure, because from what I've read in the rest of your post, it sort of sounds like you're saying it doesn't and that performance differences and enjoyment levels are 90% based on skill.

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I'm just saying it could be much worse.
This is a retarded statement. Anything can be worse. Name a situation and I can tell you how it could be worse. A starving kid in africa could complain to me about not having food and I could say to him, "well there sonny boy, it could be worse, at least you don't have aids, why are you complaining?".

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And about 'the gind'. Son, just stop grinding. You will get there eventually. :wink:
Focus on enjoying the game, focus on winning,
I think you should reroll a level one account with no heirlooms and no friends helping you out, start as a peasent and just "ignore the grind," just "focus on winning," (even though you have no influence over the outcome of the game as a peasant unless you count throwing ladders or distracting the enemy for a glorious 2-3 seconds it takes them to catch and one shot you.


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focus on trying to organize your team into a good fighting group instead
who the hell is going to listen to the new scrub who tries to boss everyone around, I know i'm not...



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If you're worried about money, consider selling your first heirloom point. It brings in 400 000 gold or more, if you're lucky. Or if you don't prefer using the more expensive items, instead heirloom something you use a lot. Or don't retire at all. Consider making alts. You can kick ass without heirlooms. Instead, focus on getting the right build, the right equipment and most importantly, the right play style.


Could you be more condescending please, I don't think you're being condescending enough here. You honestly believe new players aren't thinking about this as they grind round after round having very little influence on the game? And you out of touch mods and admins get mad at all the leechers. Maybe make the game a bit more insteresting during the "fun" part (aka boring ass fucking grind), and maybe the amount of leeching my decline a bit. Ever consider that?
 

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I guess what i'm trying to say is, look at the game with a more long term perspective. It's a game you play many months. Don't grind, instead, try to enjoy the challenges the game gives you. Know it's not fair... know some of your opponents have an advantage... the victory should be even sweeter. :)
I have no incentive to win, as I have no influence over the outcome of battle matches as a new player. The only incentive is that eventually I'll be able to make a character that will stand an equal chance against these older players, because right now it's a boring, unrewarding grind where you stand little chance in battle and have to deal with stupid dick old players who chalk up their repeated victories to "skill". Give me a ton of gold / xp for killing a heirloomed tin can 2h spammer and I might actually consider trying. Until then there's no point. I'm just forced to sit there like a sponge and collect the xp like welfare checks, saving them so hopefully one day I can afford to compete.

Your current upkeep system turns this game into a boring grind and it's made worse by a bunch of forum chocolate chip cookie old players attacking anyone who complains about it.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 27, 2011, 11:56:44 pm
Many people retire just so they can try out new builds, while some actually enjoy leveling back up (POOPHAMMER).

However, the equipment stat increases are not miniscule. They can make a large difference when you have several masterworked items. But you'll still be fine without them.

fuck you i hate leveling up i just respec now when i get bored with a build after i hit 31 so i just jump right back to 30 and make a new build
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 11:57:35 pm
Do I need to quote chadz again on why we need upkeep? :|
I shall wait for the responses against the second most recent post though.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 28, 2011, 12:01:53 am
Do I need to quote chadz again on why we need upkeep? :|
I shall wait for the responses against the second most recent post though.

We need upkeep so gen 1 people struggle their balls off the maintain their gear for their painful grind to 31 so higher gen players who sold looms/loom points and have large stockpiles of millions of gold and heirlooms can trump around in full plate and plated chargers all they want so they can smite the poor weak peasants back into the hole they crawled out from
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 28, 2011, 12:04:31 am
We need upkeep so gen 1 people struggle their balls off the maintain their gear for their painful grind to 31 so higher gen players who sold looms/loom points and have large stockpiles of millions of gold and heirlooms can trump around in full plate and plated chargers all they want so they can smite the poor weak peasants back into the hole they crawled out from
+1000
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 12:06:57 am
Strange, this poor weak peasant made it with no difficulty. I guess I am, not surprisingly, just better then everyone.

Made a shielder before the free upkeep thing came into effect, use a military cleaver, huscarl, klapvisier, Rus Scale Armour, Splinted greaves and chain mittens... Pretty damned deadly and sustainable.

Made a poleaxe character even before this free upkeep thing too. Now gen 2, but even at gen one was making money with a bunch of gear. Even with the new higher upkeep, I can still troll around with my usual gear of a Barbutte, Poleaxe, Black Coat of Plates, Wisby Gauntlets, and Light Strange Boots... still making money... Oh no wait I did ditch my Long Dagger... so technically my outfit is 300 gold cheaper then normal or so...

Quit your bitching.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 28, 2011, 12:09:18 am
Wait free upkeep? Where?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 28, 2011, 12:13:49 am
Strange, this poor weak peasant made it with no difficulty. I guess I am, not surprisingly, just better then everyone.

What's your ping?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 12:15:04 am
What's your ping?

At the time it was 80 to 90, but with the new servers it is 70. 178 on EU though.
Wait free upkeep? Where?
Back when upkeep was in effect even at level 1 instead of less then 26 like it is now. I earned every penny on those accounts. With the new "free upkeep" for newbies, you will earn slightly less then 96,500 gold by the time you hit level 26 for the first time. That is enough to buy very nice gear and have a reserve big enough to take any "bad day" without going broke. If I did my characters now the same way that I did back then, then it would be obviously even easier and my alt characters would be filthy rich in comparison.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tristan on September 28, 2011, 12:17:49 am
Swahili_Zulu_Mon:

I see your point. Yet there is one problem with what is being discussed.

If we want cRPG to be a game, where you have the feeling of developing your character then it is hard to avoid discrepancies between newer players and veterans.
If we do not want cPRG to be a game where you have this development, why not just play native?

Other games are larger so that they can sort the servers compared to your level, cRPG can't.

Call it grind or call it development. It is not for everyone but it gives a sense of achievement.
And if I had found the game boring I would never have "developed" my way through 9 gens over a year of playing.

Add to that, I do not believe that your guesstimation of skill/heirloom ratio concerning victory is correct.
Skills is 95% heirlooms is 5%... even after 12 gens.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Keshian on September 28, 2011, 12:22:52 am
Swahili_Zulu_Mon:

I see your point. Yet there is one problem with what is being discussed.

If we want cRPG to be a game, where you have the feeling of developing your character then it is hard to avoid discrepancies between newer players and veterans.
If we do not want cPRG to be a game where you have this development, why not just play native?

Other games are larger so that they can sort the servers compared to your level, cRPG can't.

Call it grind or call it development. It is not for everyone but it gives a sense of achievement.
And if I had found the game boring I would never have "developed" my way through 9 gens over a year of playing.

Add to that, I do not believe that your guesstimation of skill/heirloom ratio concerning victory is correct.
Skills is 95% heirlooms is 5%... even after 12 gens.

100% agree.  Just have to play on Strategus where no one has heirlooms and most of the same people that do well on the battle server also do well on Strategus battles.  I play on my alts who are mid-twenties levels and I can consistently top the charts with my 2hander using medium gear and a miaodao and no heirlooms, get a 2:1 k/d with my cav alt witha  double loomed destrier and thats it, xbowmen same thing, etc. 

Heirloom benefits have been nerfed several times now and I have not retired my main or alts in 5 months because quite frankly it doesn't make a real difference, certainly not worth the grind (I did respec my main (no loom for that just lose half your xp to change your stats)).
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: MrShine on September 28, 2011, 12:25:51 am
Ooooh, breaking down my post and saying "wrong" after each of my sentences... I see what you did there... Do you really want to have a conversation like this? Alright... if you insist.
 So obviously you're out of touch with what's it's like to be new in this game.
 Do "some of us" also maintain a healthy social life and work 50-60 hours per week?   Lol, you sound like a republican trying to defend tax breaks for the wealthy.
I wasn't talking about upkeep, I was talking about buying the items second hand on the marketplace.
 Ah, the stupid-nubs-don't-know-anything argument. Nice to see such lazy thinking from the admins.
 You're joking right? The inequality between old and new players is painfully obvious. Just go on any server and you'll see the same tin cans doing the same thing all day. Lol, you're lying to yourself if you think "skill" is mostly responsible for your KD ratio. Sad to see an admin who's so naive about an online game.
 Please, by all means, name these players who are crushing tin cans on plated chargers with their scythes, I'm all ears.
 A new player isn't someone below 25, a new player is someone who's still on their second generation and doesn't have 5+ heirloomed items. Earlier in this thread people were talking about what a big difference heirlooms make. I guess they're wrong though, eh? You know why so many players are continually respeccing to stay below 26? It's because upkeep costs are fucking excessive, ruin the fun and turn the game into a boring ass grind.
 You must love doing anything when you have retired as many times as I'm guessing you have and you have accumulated such excesses in heirloomed gear and gold.
I played for a couple weeks when this mod was first released (been playing warband since day 1). It's still like that, it's just they have a ton of heirloomed items now instead of a couple extra levels. In order to make any gold you still have to be a peasent for months wearing shit gear and getting 1-shotted by 2h spamming heirloomed tin cans who then go on the forums and chalk it up to skill and are general dicks to newer players telling them they just need to grind more and it will all be better.
 Based on my experience here the past couple weeks, you're wrong. It's a horrible leveling function.
 Are you sure, because from what I've read in the rest of your post, it sort of sounds like you're saying it doesn't and that performance differences and enjoyment levels are 90% based on skill.
 This is a retarded statement. Anything can be worse. Name a situation and I can tell you how it could be worse. A starving kid in africa could complain to me about not having food and I could say to him, "well there sonny boy, it could be worse, at least you don't have aids, why are you complaining?".
 I think you should reroll a level one account with no heirlooms and no friends helping you out, start as a peasent and just "ignore the grind," just "focus on winning," (even though you have no influence over the outcome of the game as a peasant unless you count throwing ladders or distracting the enemy for a glorious 2-3 seconds it takes them to catch and one shot you.

 who the hell is going to listen to the new scrub who tries to boss everyone around, I know i'm not...


 

Could you be more condescending please, I don't think you're being condescending enough here. You honestly believe new players aren't thinking about this as they grind round after round having very little influence on the game? And you out of touch mods and admins get mad at all the leechers. Maybe make the game a bit more insteresting during the "fun" part (aka boring ass fucking grind), and maybe the amount of leeching my decline a bit. Ever consider that?
 
 I have no incentive to win, as I have no influence over the outcome of battle matches as a new player. The only incentive is that eventually I'll be able to make a character that will stand an equal chance against these older players, because right now it's a boring, unrewarding grind where you stand little chance in battle and have to deal with stupid dick old players who chalk up their repeated victories to "skill". Give me a ton of gold / xp for killing a heirloomed tin can 2h spammer and I might actually consider trying. Until then there's no point. I'm just forced to sit there like a sponge and collect the xp like welfare checks, saving them so hopefully one day I can afford to compete.

Your current upkeep system turns this game into a boring grind and it's made worse by a bunch of forum chocolate chip cookie old players attacking anyone who complains about it.

Wrong.




The game has evolved substantially, and is much easier for new players to compete that it ever has been.

If you stopped complaining about looms and gold and ping for a moment you'd notice that it isn't very hard to get some decent gear and compete with players provided you lern2play.  I got the majority of the gear I've ever had by gen 2, and haven't had problems with gold since that time. 

Phazey was right: if you stick around and gain battle awareness and other skills you'll see how little looms & ping really matter.  I'm not going to lie and say that looms don't help (they obviously do) nor am I going to say that someone with 30 ping isn't going to have an advantage against someone with 150 ping (they obviously will) but you seem to be trying to find any way to justify to yourself why you aren't as good as other people.

Truth hurts sometimes.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 28, 2011, 12:26:27 am
Swahili_Zulu_Mon:

I see your point. Yet there is one problem with what is being discussed.

If we want cRPG to be a game, where you have the feeling of developing your character then it is hard to avoid discrepancies between newer players and veterans.
If we do not want cPRG to be a game where you have this development, why not just play native?

Other games are larger so that they can sort the servers compared to your level, cRPG can't.

Call it grind or call it development. It is not for everyone but it gives a sense of achievement.
And if I had found the game boring I would never have "developed" my way through 9 gens over a year of playing.

Add to that, I do not believe that your guesstimation of skill/heirloom ratio concerning victory is correct.
Skills is 95% heirlooms is 5%... even after 12 gens.

Skill is only a big factor when other variables are controlled for. For example, Skill is not 95% of a match when you, clad in heirloomed churborg wielding a masterwork flameburg at lvl 30 square off against a guy wearing a grey tunic and wielding a voulge and darts. That's not skill, that's milking your gear. This and ganks are what the majority of kills in crpg end up being.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 12:28:09 am
What's your ping?

Mind if I ask what your ping is?
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 28, 2011, 12:33:37 am
Wrong.




The game has evolved substantially, and is much easier for new players to compete that it ever has been.

If you stopped complaining about looms and gold and ping for a moment you'd notice that it isn't very hard to get some decent gear and compete with players provided you lern2play.  I got the majority of the gear I've ever had by gen 2, and haven't had problems with gold since that time. 

Phazey was right: if you stick around and gain battle awareness and other skills you'll see how little looms & ping really matter.  I'm not going to lie and say that looms don't help (they obviously do) nor am I going to say that someone with 30 ping isn't going to have an advantage against someone with 150 ping (they obviously will) but you seem to be trying to find any way to justify to yourself why you aren't as good as other people.

Truth hurts sometimes.

Saying "wrong" without providing any contrary evidence doesn't really prove anything, it just makes you look like a biased dick.

I never claimed to be really skilled. I like how you're making assumption about me and then resorting to ad hominem when someone is critical of your game and actually reasons out an argument.

Try leveling up a new character with the new upkeep system (upkeep got much harsher after the last patch). Come talk after you've finished your first gen without any heirlooms, extra gold / gear from friends, or other crutches.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 12:37:46 am
Try leveling up a new character with the new upkeep system (upkeep got much harsher after the last patch). Come talk after you've finished your first gen without any heirlooms, extra gold / gear from friends, or other crutches.

I have, and it is even easier then before.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Swahili_Zulu_Mon on September 28, 2011, 12:38:42 am
Mind if I ask what your ping is?

About the same as yours now (60-80 on NA). It used to be 120-150 before I changed ISPs and the change made a huge difference when i played native. Occasionally I would experience 250-350 spikes, which made the game unplayable. I see lots of players on NA above the 130 mark and it's obvious to me that people are getting easy kills against these people.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: MrShine on September 28, 2011, 02:37:13 am
I have, and it is even easier then before.
^ wut he said.


E: Also just for giggles for my last 100k xp or so I decided to go without loomed items for a few rounds. 

My KD for the gen was 3.1:1.

As you can see...

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)


...you can be successful with a non-heirloomed loadout and don't need to break the bank.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Vibe on September 28, 2011, 07:51:43 am
Sorry pic is small: 17 kills 6 deaths.  But oh wait is that someone with HIGH PING leading the team with 26 kills 6 deaths?  Impossible!

Yes, but as his name says, he CHEATS.
Title: Re: retiring: what's the point?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 11:48:45 am
hi im gen three soon to be gen four(my loom is a balanced glaive soon to be mw) my ping is 80-120 area usually seeing how that is part of the discussion

i know how you feel man its hard,but to say i am defenseless because i am new is kind of insulting but i take no offence seeing your posts.

i do see these tin cans running around and from what i can see there one of three people top the most common bottum being the least
i have no real evidence to prove this though no doubt its around im not gonna go around trying to find evidence just believe it or dont believe your choice this is merely a deduction

1:twinks(WoW term for someone who freezes their character to take advantage over others in his tier) these my old friends are everywhere first i thought there were just veterans but the crpg player pool is too small for how many tin cans are around.these fuckers are taking advantage of the respec system just so they dont have to pay for upkeep to the point they are successful,make money, and if the character is there main save up enough to  by loomed gear(for the obvous reason they have no upkeep therefore are in the strongest armor and using the strongest weapons to make this happen).there gonna get wiped out soon enough ive heard that they might make it so once you respec you will have to pay for upkeep.i think u will believe me on this seeing how u touched on the subject

2 loom sellers: due to the fact this system is "relatively" new veterans having a sum of money collected before it,and because of twinks there is an unnatural high amount of money and demand for looms in the system thus people are able to sell loom points for (as of right now) 400k a pop they keep there expensive lifestyles going,after all they would rather be on expensive gear then have expensive gear loomed they cant use.but eventually after the twinks r eliminated, veterans money slowly reduced to the point they cant afford looms, and the fact that the eventually everyone will have more looms at there disposal and in the market flooded(it seems to me everyone has some sort of loomed weapon nowadays on the ground by their corpse)the supply will out way the demand or the demand will not afford the supply thus making the practice rather cheap.so cheap that just selling your loom will not make it to where one can afford a full plate lifestyle

3 veterans: veterans have been playing the game long before us and have reaped the benefits, is it truly fare they should not?they put in the time why should they not get the same rewards for there time as we do? should they get some sort of unrealistic penalty to help the new players catch up to them?non sense but those millions arent going to last them forever.they spend it even faster rate then we spend ours.y is that? simply because they spend HUGE amounts of gold for looms and pay HUGE amounts of money on the tin cans and plated chargers. sure some make out in the long run be trading loomed weapons but as i said above that system isnt going to last forever a couple a weeks ago they could be/sell looms for 450k and now they can only do it for 400k thats a rather large deflation if you ask me and the added cash flow of twinks will be aliminated

4the regulars:people who make there money the normal way,no looms to speak of to haggle or trade with due to patches strengthening or weakening them and no money to fall back on.whenever they wear strong weapons is either because they stacked up some money  by wearing cheap gear or they want to keep an x5

^these are the 4 main ones i can see.but like i said this "crpg economy" wont last forever.the flow will be halted in some fashion(twinks unlimited cash flow ended, the loom market plummeting,the veterans seemingly ENDLESS amount of cash being spent like there burning it). there will be an equility then call me a cynical man but it seems obvious to me it will be fixed and they will get theres in the long run.

they will reap what they sowed. and we will benefit from it

and i hope crpg will be better from it