cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Corwin on September 24, 2011, 12:16:11 pm

Title: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on September 24, 2011, 12:16:11 pm
It's been bow and arrow fest out there these days, two handers and poles  are being killed again by 3 arrows fired by machine gun archers. I think making cut damage to all bows except longbow was the best idea ever in this mod.

 It is just not normal that a tin can is getting killed by some "Tatar bow" in three seconds. Do you agree?
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Paul on September 24, 2011, 12:42:21 pm
Bullshit.



Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: gazda on September 24, 2011, 12:43:13 pm
Bullshit.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on September 24, 2011, 04:07:19 pm
Bullshit.
Is this your attempt to provoke? Pathetic, I must say.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Lichen on September 24, 2011, 05:05:02 pm
It's been bow and arrow fest out there these days, two handers and poles  are being killed again by 3 arrows fired by machine gun archers. I think making cut damage to all bows except longbow was the best idea ever in this mod.

 It is just not normal that a tin can is getting killed by some "Tatar bow" in three seconds. Do you agree?
When people say 'this was killed by that' it doesn't mean much unless you know the stats of BOTH characters in addition to heirlooms (if any). I'm sure other tin cans aren't killed by tatar bows in 3 seconds.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 24, 2011, 05:36:48 pm
There is no way a tartar bow can kill a tin can in three arrows unless we are talking about some very low HP tincan with like 14 STR and the tartar has 8PD and tripple loomed his bow and bodkins... or headshots.

I bet that "tincan" was a Panzer character (level 22-25 free upkeep) and probably was even already hurt from something.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Leshma on September 24, 2011, 05:40:52 pm
I liked when Longbow was the only pierce bow.

Also try to code better, bullshit man. A lot of CTDs since this new patch.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Gurnisson on September 24, 2011, 06:09:03 pm
I liked when Longbow was the only pierce bow.

This. Rus Bow and Horn Bow were perfectly viable with cut damage before
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Adalwulf on September 25, 2011, 02:50:14 am
I agree, what's the point of paying for an expensive bow when you can just get pierce bodkins. Rus costs 686 around gold and I can only imagine the longbows repair cost...at this point horn bow is practically the only bow worth using..
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tzar on September 25, 2011, 03:27:25 am
70 body armor with 7 IF

2 arrows and your dead...

Slry retarded giving archers peirce dmg on machine gun bows..

TBH i dont get why some of you 2h/pole users are still playing your class...

Thank god i retired and went a new class and that was even before the archer buff...

Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Jambi on September 25, 2011, 03:38:02 am
Most players still need 3-4 arrows to die. and tin cans need about 5-6. I remember shooting Alexjei today. he took 6 arrows before he died.

For me personally, having a rusbow with bodkins, thus doing pierce damage, the damage didnt increase that much. It still takes the same amount of arrows to kill someone.

I didnt see archery damage change that much.

But as i said a long time ago.

The Hornbow definatly needs a nerf, and so does the Tatar bow now. If these bows fire Bodkin arrows, the speed/damage ratio is just insane.

Level 30
    15/24 / 18/21  Hornbow Bow
or 21/18 Tatar bow build are just way too OP.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Adalwulf on September 25, 2011, 03:54:03 am
Most players still need 3-4 arrows to die. and tin cans need about 5-6. I remember shooting Alexjei today. he took 6 arrows before he died.

For me personally, having a rusbow with bodkins, thus doing pierce damage, the damage didnt increase that much. It still takes the same amount of arrows to kill someone.

I didnt see archery damage change that much.

But as i said a long time ago.

The Hornbow definatly needs a nerf, and so does the Tatar bow now. If these bows fire Bodkin arrows, the speed/damage ratio is just insane.


Level 30
    15/24 / 18/21  Hornbow Bow
or 21/18 Tatar bow build are just way too OP.

This is the other solution. I haven't noticed any real change to the damage I do with a bow. All I notice is the jump shot change. I personally don't use bodkins and neither do many bow user veterans. They cost too much and are not worth it. Tatar arrows are more cost efective and do enough damage to all mid tier to destroy.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 25, 2011, 05:49:27 pm
70 body armor with 7 IF

2 arrows and your dead...

Slry retarded giving archers peirce dmg on machine gun bows..

TBH i dont get why some of you 2h/pole users are still playing your class...

Thank god i retired and went a new class and that was even before the archer buff...

With Rus Scale, 6IF and 18 STR with Mail Mittens, I can take two of sWalkers shots to the chest and survive. He has 7 or 8PD, and MW Bodkins and MW Longbow...

Once again, Tzar has no idea what the hell he is talking about.

Maybe if people want things to be balanced (and taken seriously so the devs listen), they first need to stop pulling massive mountains of crap out of their ass and stop wildly exaggerating?
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Vibe on September 25, 2011, 05:52:21 pm
IMPLEMENT INSTAGIB

For melee too ofc :3
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on September 25, 2011, 07:27:39 pm
Is it possible to make the Longbow be able to shoot any arrow as pierce damage while the other bows have to rely on whatever arrow's type?
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Mtemtko on September 25, 2011, 07:31:41 pm
Archers would be cool n shit, if there wouldnt be atleast five of them shooting at me at any time I play.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Vibe on September 25, 2011, 07:47:37 pm
Archers would be cool n shit, if there wouldnt be atleast five of them shooting at me at any time I play.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Shpritza on September 25, 2011, 09:39:59 pm
Archers would be cool n shit, if there wouldnt be atleast five of them shooting at me at any time I play.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Frankysan on September 25, 2011, 10:26:56 pm
FOR FUCK SAKE YES YES YES
get a big bow or forget to pierce armors you bullshitty roofmonkeys!
HA with pierce dmg?
no comment
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: highglandeur on September 25, 2011, 10:37:53 pm
Also, we want to propose a new way for forum members to propose changes.

Bullshit.

Indeed
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tzar on September 25, 2011, 10:49:44 pm
Bullshit.

Me and Jambi just tested it on the duel server 3 arrows n your dead.

But w/e you are the boss....

Come on TS and jambi will show you...
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Frankysan on September 25, 2011, 10:54:47 pm
Is it possible to make the Longbow be able to shoot any arrow as pierce damage while the other bows have to rely on whatever arrow's type?
omg is this guy a fucking genius or what? Or MAYBE (no offense) he's just normally dotated like all of us (not monkeys) and he can see what's the clear point of this?
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2011, 10:56:28 pm
Me and Jambi just tested it on the duel server 3 arrows n your dead.

But w/e you are the boss....

Don't mind Paul, he is quite often not aware of how the game works!
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on September 27, 2011, 06:45:46 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


These two were taken last night. As smaller bows are effective enough, again we have hybrid archer/twohander/swordsmen.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 07:03:13 pm
Bodkin arrow archers - they rape you in 3 seconds.


But seriously, I think moving damage type to arrows was a great change.  There is still some internal balance that is probably needed between bows and arrows (I agree horn bow looks a bit too strong right now compared to the other bows, I have yet to test it but will when I retire next) but allowing more variety between bows was great. 

Maybe adding a difficulty requirement to certain arrows might help curb the possibility of a super fast super low end bow that fires piercing bodkin arrows?


E: Oh yeah, and about those pictures above?  That was always possible with 1 slot bows, provided you take only 1 stack of arrows.  That archer only has 15 bodkin arrows (a few more if heirloomed).  1 stack isn't going to last very long.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 27, 2011, 07:28:51 pm
Making arrows choose the type of damage is a great step.
But it's totally imbalance right now... so...

We need a dramatic change.



To balance this bow "adjustment", nerf ALL xbow damage by 2.


TADDDAAAAA



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2011, 07:35:53 pm
  • -(WSE) add a maximum amount of time you can "HOLD" the arrow, depending on str and/or PD. If an archer exceeds that time, he "looses" his arrow (dropped on the ground, no damage), and gets stunned(like being kicked) (aka : No more shotgunning archers, walking freely while holding the arrow, circling the ennemy shielder, and suddenly releasing the string, giving a free body hit, sometimes even a headshot... just silly)

This would create so much whine that I think 90% of archers would quit 2 weeks later. But I do support that idea of yours just as I agree that holding chambered weapon for too long should decrease damage dramatically.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 27, 2011, 07:39:02 pm
This would create so much whine that I think 90% of archers would quit 2 weeks later. But I do support that idea of yours just as I agree that holding chambered weapon for too long should decrease damage dramatically.

Depends on that particular amount of time. I totally agree archers "can" hold their aim a bit, to ensure "feint release", and such. But when it exceeds 6secs, it's just stupid.
But thanks for the support. ;)
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 07:48:47 pm
This would create so much whine that I think 90% of archers would quit 2 weeks later. But I do support that idea of yours just as I agree that holding chambered weapon for too long should decrease damage dramatically.

Good riddence to that 90% then. I almost never hold shots longer then a second after the reticule closes. It is not terribly important, and if this would lessen the amount of archers on the battlefield for such a low unimportant "cost" then all the more reason to put it in.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Digglez on September 27, 2011, 09:45:32 pm
change it back. no reason why it should have been changed in the first place.  Longbow was the only bow that could penetrate plate, its stupid some rinkedink hornbow can be hitting thru plate armor

Balance before this patch was great.

Do you want slow hard hitting armor buster or fast peasant sprayer
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 27, 2011, 09:55:06 pm
People are never going to leave archery alone are they
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Ylca on September 27, 2011, 10:05:26 pm
Patch rebalances archery to be usable again.

People notice that more than the few die-hard vets are now playing archers

People complain about archer influx without acknolwedging the incredibly low population pre-patch.

People hate getting shot at ranged by anything

Mass influx of "archery was fine before" posts, still not acknowledging that the archer population pre-patch was abysmal (as the people who were making these posts prefer).

Constant posting of same issue over and over

Archery nerf, archer levels drop to next to nothing again, the cycle repeats.



I honestly wish that before one could comment on balance they had to show they had a basic grasp of the mechanics of the game, that will never happen so 2handers will constantly be at the forefront of archery balance for some mind-boggling reason.

Eh, such is life- i'll enjoy the enjoyable archery while it lasts then go back to xbow with everyone else if the "ranged is not CRPG" class gets its way and we see another round of massive nerfs.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Youhou on September 27, 2011, 10:05:49 pm
Im with 20/18 with 6 IF and using milanese plate and soon after start get shot to body by horse archer which takes 1/3 of my total health. Just too insane..
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: v/onMega on September 28, 2011, 08:33:55 am
Archery certainly hurts more then it did before.

So, it went from total op prejanuary,
To total shit afterwards,
constantly being balanced towards a useful state.

I suggest not buffing it anymore....not at all...might need a fix in terms of too high pierce damage...(?)

On the other hand......
As far as I know...Paul wants to change the randomness of soak / absorb that armor currently has.

Whenever this kicks in, heavy armor will finally be freaking worth every piece of gold!


So guys...just wait :-)

Paul will, by changing other things, fix this "issue".

Go go go paul!!!
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Black Wind on September 28, 2011, 09:15:10 am
Making arrows choose the type of damage is a great step.
But it's totally imbalance right now... so...

We need a dramatic change.


  • -bodkin arrows are unusable on horseback
  • -bodkin arrows "only" get 14 max amo, when non heirloom
  • -bodkin arrows, because having better arrow heads, are heavier than the normal ones, thus, increase weight of one stack to 3.5. (will also prevent faster running away, even if 0.5 or 1kg in total isn't much)
  • -lower rus bow speed rating by 1, to 58
  • -lower shitty bow's (aka difficulty from 1 to 4) accuracy by 1, to 95 and 96 for Tatar bow.
  • -(WSE) add a maximum amount of time you can "HOLD" the arrow, depending on str and/or PD. If an archer exceeds that time, he "looses" his arrow (dropped on the ground, no damage), and gets stunned(like being kicked) (aka : No more shotgunning archers, walking freely while holding the arrow, circling the ennemy shielder, and suddenly releasing the string, giving a free body hit, sometimes even a headshot... just silly)

To balance this bow "adjustment", nerf ALL xbow damage by 2.


TADDDAAAAA



(click to show/hide)

Before you read my rant, quite frankly, you're a twat.

Bodkins did do pierce damage in real life, due to needle-like arrowheads.

Having bows determine pierce or cut was rather silly. Longbows shouldn't just do pierce damage with any sort of arrow, as arrows such as barbed and tatar are designed to cut.

I am a ninja build; lamellar vest, black hood, khergit boots, 12 str and one IF. I don't have trouble with archers, so given by the aggressive tone of your whinge, I assume somebody can't dodge well.

As for your desire for a "crossbow nerf", this is ludicrous. Crossbows were nerfed hard with the latest patch. For the one-slot crossbow, accuracy decreased by eight, projectile speed decreased by around 5. Now, they are marginally accurate with 100 wpf.

The c-RPG arrows travel at a quarterfold of their realistic speed, and crossbow bolts have a similar ratio. (were launched faster than arrows due to the non-aerodynamic dimensions of the bolt)

I believe you just want these range nerfs to benefit your build. Selfish.

Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 28, 2011, 07:45:56 pm
Before you read my rant, quite frankly, you're a twat.

Bodkins did do pierce damage in real life, due to needle-like arrowheads.

Having bows determine pierce or cut was rather silly. Longbows shouldn't just do pierce damage with any sort of arrow, as arrows such as barbed and tatar are designed to cut.

I am a ninja build; lamellar vest, black hood, khergit boots, 12 str and one IF. I don't have trouble with archers, so given by the aggressive tone of your whinge, I assume somebody can't dodge well.

As for your desire for a "crossbow nerf", this is ludicrous. Crossbows were nerfed hard with the latest patch. For the one-slot crossbow, accuracy decreased by eight, projectile speed decreased by around 5. Now, they are marginally accurate with 100 wpf.

The c-RPG arrows travel at a quarterfold of their realistic speed, and crossbow bolts have a similar ratio. (were launched faster than arrows due to the non-aerodynamic dimensions of the bolt)

I believe you just want these range nerfs to benefit your build. Selfish.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Excellent post, from unknown player, who probably doesn't know that my main is an archer, with a x3 bow, and two different sets of loomed arrows.
And who probably was never shotgunned by an archer, because he didn't survive the cavalry. Let's not make stupid theory about the other, shall we ? This will get us nowhere. I can dodge arrow pretty fine at midrange, even if 3 different archers shoot at me. But i clearly can't slash one, since they can shotgun you at pointblank. I would love to post the excellent "l2p" remark, since you did the same to me, but i don't know you, and i'm not as rude as you, so i won't.


I specifically loled at the bolded parts of the text. The first one, because it has NOTHING to do with my post. I'm pretty please with the fact that it's now the arrows that tell what sort of damage it does. The other one, because they're all completely false.  :rolleyes:

Hope to shoot you down, if i ever see you. Unless you consider yourself as someone with way better dodging skills than Thomek, or others ninjas.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 07:50:17 pm
"since they can shotgun you at pointblank."

Decent player dodge arrows at pointblank all the time. What's your ATH? Are you a low agi STR build, because if that's your problem you traded maneuverability for PS and IF and that was your choice. If you do have reasonable AGI then you just need to work on your archer dance because i watch aware 2handers run up on archers every round.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 28, 2011, 08:02:50 pm
"since they can shotgun you at pointblank."

Decent player dodge arrows at pointblank all the time. What's your ATH? Are you a low agi STR build, because if that's your problem you traded maneuverability for PS and IF and that was your choice. If you do have reasonable AGI then you just need to work on your archer dance because i watch aware 2handers run up on archers every round.

Maybe Eu's archers are more decent then. :S Or maybe Na's 2h are more decent. One of thoses two, or maybe a bit of both.
I'm a strongninja build, 7athletics "only", but in low gear (lamellar armor). But everytime you start an attack, you're actually slow enough to be an easy target for decent archers. It's really not hard to do, i mean... even i can do it. And it's just so silly.

I saw "good" shotgunning archers, able to headshot a shielder with a rusbow in pointblank, after slightly turning around him while backpedaling, feinting one side, and releasing arrow after holding it for 4sec. When archers get a chance at killing shielders 1v1, something's not right.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 08:04:34 pm
When archers get a chance at killing shielders 1v1, something's not right.

It means the shielder is an idiot for not "bumping" the archer first, or does not have a real shield/shield skill.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on September 28, 2011, 08:06:40 pm
If I was cynic, I would say that many low skilled archers are defending their current OP situation, because some of them probably for the first time are making positive K:D.
And thanks to Jambi for being fair.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Ylca on September 28, 2011, 08:10:24 pm
If I was cynic, I would say that many low skilled archers are defending their current OP situation, because some of them probably for the first time are making positive K:D.
And thanks to Jambi for being fair.

Everyone who disagrees with me has low skill. Ah the level of discussion on these forums.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 28, 2011, 08:22:50 pm
It means the shielder is an idiot for not "bumping" the archer first, or does not have a real shield/shield skill.

Shielder is slower when holding his shield up than the archer is when aiming and keeping his arrow, and doing side steps. You know where this leads to ? Cause i do.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on September 28, 2011, 08:25:27 pm
Nice to see that you recognized yourself in this sentence, a guy whom I've never seen or met.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 08:25:51 pm
Shielder is slower when holding his shield up than the archer is when aiming and keeping his arrow, and doing side steps. You know where this leads to ? Cause i do.

You can turn your mouse and spin your character instantly, my sensitivity is maxed for a reason. A shielder with at least 5 ATHL will be able to advance faster then any archer can backpeddle while holding an arrow (which slows down the archer significantly) thus making it possible for a smart shielder to bite the bullet, take a few more seconds, and collide with the archer causing the archer stagger lose his arrow and open himself up for a slash.

If you don't do this as a shielder, start learning how do do it or get plugged.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: justme on September 28, 2011, 08:29:09 pm
Maybe Eu's archers are more decent then. :S

they have kesh and ToD.. nuff said.. we have elite archers who almost never miss..
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 08:34:01 pm
they have kesh and ToD.. nuff said.. we have elite archers who almost never miss..

I dunno, I think i do pretty OK.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 28, 2011, 10:27:29 pm
they have kesh and ToD.. nuff said.. we have elite archers who almost never miss..

hummm.... chimp, birdman, where the best, and they were Eu. And Kesh... well... let him play a lv29 archer for a change, with no heirlooms. Not saying he's not good, he's definitely skilled, but...you get my point. Playing a 6athl archer in the NA world of Str is sure fun and easier to shoot down than eu's ninjas. Forget all thoses x3rusbow spammers, and i'd definitely say we have very good skilled archers in Eu. I'm saying this as an archer myself, so i guess i can judge them fairly.

Thing is, it's pretty hard to "compare" archers. Heirlooms, choice of bow, choice of how much PD, how to play (hunting cavalry, hunting peasants, hunting tincans, hunting average 2h, hunting shielders), with whom (fallen archer squad, solo ranger, spear+archer anti-cav squad), etc... So pretty hard to compare, imo.

Thing is, only a "few" archers abuse this close range shoot. And i see no reason "why" there shouldn't be a max time for holding your arrow. Realism : your arm will never be able to release any arrow if you hold max length string too long. Balance : when you get shot, you're stunned and loose all your speed, so the archer can "always" be out of range as long as he doesn't miss, wich happens rarely (if the opponent is without shield).  And getting 2shotted by an archer, at pointblank, after dodging dozens of arrows is always irritating, i guess.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: MrShine on September 28, 2011, 10:51:43 pm
No point getting into a NA vs EU discussion.

If you are a shielder and don't bump the archer before swinging you're doing it wrong.  Also there would have to be a pretty massive athletics discrepancy for an archer to literally hold their attack and backpeddle and keep pace with an advancing shielder.  I've never seen an archer do that for a long period of time for obvious reasons (you can't see where you're going, you become an easy target for other archers, it isn't practical etc).

If you know how to wiggle it can be quite hard for an archer to hit someone even at close range.  It's the risk you take to be plugged for big damage close out on an archer if you engage them from the front though.

Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Black Wind on September 29, 2011, 01:26:15 am
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Excellent post, from unknown player, who probably doesn't know that my main is an archer, with a x3 bow, and two different sets of loomed arrows.
And who probably was never shotgunned by an archer, because he didn't survive the cavalry. Let's not make stupid theory about the other, shall we ? This will get us nowhere. I can dodge arrow pretty fine at midrange, even if 3 different archers shoot at me. But i clearly can't slash one, since they can shotgun you at pointblank. I would love to post the excellent "l2p" remark, since you did the same to me, but i don't know you, and i'm not as rude as you, so i won't.


I specifically loled at the bolded parts of the text. The first one, because it has NOTHING to do with my post. I'm pretty please with the fact that it's now the arrows that tell what sort of damage it does. The other one, because they're all completely false.  :rolleyes:

Hope to shoot you down, if i ever see you. Unless you consider yourself as someone with way better dodging skills than Thomek, or others ninjas.
(click to show/hide)

I apologize if I caused offence, but when somebody calls for nerfs that aren't exactly fair, I get angry.

I didn't imply that you're a bad player, so I think there was a misconception? I'm not an EU player, so I don't know the scenario there.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bulzur on September 29, 2011, 02:42:36 pm
I apologize if I caused offence, but when somebody calls for nerfs that aren't exactly fair, I get angry.

I didn't imply that you're a bad player, so I think there was a misconception? I'm not an EU player, so I don't know the scenario there.

I was maybe a bit offended.  And i also apologize for my zealous post.
Unlike you, though, i'm pretty sure archery needs a nerf. Or maybe it's just me who loved being one of the few remaining archers, thus feeling special, when there's now just so many, that don't even bother with headshots, since two bodyshots are enough.

I'll probably join NA, it's been a while since i've been there, and it's true that sometimes things are different. (for example the bec de corbin spam in na, but not in eu).

On another note, "thanks" to the new collision system, it has become way easier for archers to work together (since they can't shoot each other, unless they're... horrible) than melees, who really need that athletics to try to follow the guy without blocking his teammates attacks. And we also see a bit more teams of 4-5 archers sticking together. And since they "only" have to move to two different directions to shoot a shielder effectively, while staying on a mountain to not care about cav, it's a bit inconvenient that they "also" have such destructive power. Mind you, xbow tend to do the same (hello clan Sanglier, with scimitar+shield+crossbow xD ).

It's, strangely (or not) way easier (for me) to kill archers as an archer, than as a shielder.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bobthehero on September 29, 2011, 03:07:18 pm
It's, strangely (or not) way easier (for me) to kill archers as an archer, than as a shielder.

Anyone else thinks that is wrong? As in archers shouldnt be the main counter to other archer?
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Gricks on September 29, 2011, 03:47:16 pm
As an archer, cav are usually my main counter (I can just run away from most shielders). Seriously though, the majority of players play 2h/pole, and I think that's the problem. They have someone that can kill them without being able to do anything about it (aside from zigzagging which makes it really difficult to hit you). Most of the time archers don't top the charts, its the crutching two-handed players that one shot everything they look at or the cav.

Other than archers being annoying (2 hits-bullshit), I haven't seen a real argument against them. "OMG I CANTZ RAMBO THEM OR CATCH THEM IN A DUEL WTFFF" is not an argument. Use teamwork.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tot. on October 01, 2011, 08:15:09 pm
Honestly speaking I never understood why archers are allowed to pull the string while moving. Makes no sense and allows playing as lone kiting archer. If you want to force us to use teamwork to kill you (like it is now) then you should be forced to use teamwork aswell, ie. have infantry protection while shooting, not just legolas-running around and not caring about anything but cavalry because noone can get you.

Revert damage to cut and remove ability to move while pulling the string. And maybe the battle will be playable again.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: MrShine on October 01, 2011, 10:01:36 pm
Honestly speaking I never understood why archers are allowed to pull the string while moving. Makes no sense and allows playing as lone kiting archer. If you want to force us to use teamwork to kill you (like it is now) then you should be forced to use teamwork aswell, ie. have infantry protection while shooting, not just legolas-running around and not caring about anything but cavalry because noone can get you.

Revert damage to cut and remove ability to move while pulling the string. And maybe the battle will be playable again.

I would love to discuss this further but it needs to be properly moved into the realism discussion forum before I can troll about how we should implement your suggestion for bows as well as fatigue from swinging those big heavy 2 hand weapons around.

Archers already need to be with the team to be effective.  A lone archer is a dead archer in most cases, and they rely on their ability to move quickly to avoid being complete fodder when anyone gets near (not like most aren't already). 

Jump shot has already been removed, standing still when pulling string is too much of a nerf to gameplay.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 01, 2011, 10:48:59 pm
I dont mind bows piercing at all, makes my alt's shortbow much more effective. Rus bow might need a nerf but otherwise it is fine, ofcourse it sucks getting hit for 50% damage in one shot but i barely ever get shot anyways.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Bobthehero on October 02, 2011, 05:23:16 am
I would love to discuss this further but it needs to be properly moved into the realism discussion forum before I can troll about how we should implement your suggestion for bows as well as fatigue from swinging those big heavy 2 hand weapons around.

2 handers are not heavy, people were trained back then, battles in cRPG are so short you wouldn't have time to get exhausted.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 02, 2011, 07:11:05 am
lvl 25 24str 8 IF Heraldic transitional, with shiny gaunlets of prettyness, against horn bow. I think the build was 18 21 or 24. I took 7 arrows and then some one killed him...

I've yet to see anything other than an arblest and throwing lance cause serious dmg from a few shots. 2 Throwing lances kills me and 2 - 3 arblest bolts.

I play an archer as well, the only problem I have is with the long bows delay where you loose accuracy before the release.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on October 04, 2011, 12:51:54 pm
I think that at the core of many misunderstandings lies the fact that things in EU and NA are different, and work differently.

On EU we have some coldblooded snipers with bows, such as Tenne, Nebun, Jambi, Pandor etc. Any of them is a murderous factor on every map, and almost in any situation. And I think that in whatever way they nerf/tweak archery, it wouldn't have that much impact on their scores.
At the same time, we have a lot of bundle of sticksry in form of dozen of unskilled archers camping a roof (sometimes so much that they are falling off from the roof), and machine gunning with tatar/horn bow with pierce damage.

Now, I don't play NA because of ping, but people I trust tell me that the situation is a lot different there, with much less bundle of sticksry and roof-camping.
I think that the best novelty you could possibly introduce in the mod would be possibility for infantry to burn down god damn houses once they reach them.

Also, I would ask anyone to pay heed to what Jambi said. He is as dedicated archer as they come, and if he says that something regarding archery is OP, I think it should be taken in consideration.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 04, 2011, 12:55:14 pm
We have a ton of elite archers.
more elite archers than elite melee.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Digglez on October 04, 2011, 12:58:12 pm
lvl 25 24str 8 IF Heraldic transitional, with shiny gaunlets of prettyness, against horn bow. I think the build was 18 21 or 24. I took 7 arrows and then some one killed him...

I've yet to see anything other than an arblest and throwing lance cause serious dmg from a few shots. 2 Throwing lances kills me and 2 - 3 arblest bolts.

I play an archer as well, the only problem I have is with the long bows delay where you loose accuracy before the release.

I've been 1 shot headshotted by hornbow using bodkins despite my Nordic Warlord Helm 48 armor & 65 HP....its stupid ridiculous that these puny uzi rate of fire bows can shoot right thru armor
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Leshma on October 04, 2011, 01:02:10 pm
I've been one headshotted by hornbow using bodkins despite my Lordly Vaegir War Mask 59 armor and 60 HP. But I don't mind, headshot should kill anyone. But I'm pissed when the same guy takes away 60% of my HP despite my 71 body armor...
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 04, 2011, 01:40:42 pm
It's been bow and arrow fest out there these days, two handers and poles  are being killed again by 3 arrows fired by machine gun archers. I think making cut damage to all bows except longbow was the best idea ever in this mod.

 It is just not normal that a tin can is getting killed by some "Tatar bow" in three seconds. Do you agree?


+1

Longbow should be the only bow with pierce damage.
And as already mentioned for a hundred times, the overpowered rus bow becomes even more overpowered due to that -.-
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Tennenoth on October 04, 2011, 06:39:29 pm
Alright, so after being asked to post here with my opinion, why anyone would want that completely bypasses me but none the less, here's my opinion.

I'm at a crossroads to be honest... On one side, you've got the arrows determine the damage type, perfectly acceptable in the realworld. On the other hand you've got the gameplay and balance argument, whereby different sub-classes of each class should be specialised in different areas, having the ability to pick more damage for a sub-class that previously didn't specialise doesn't make sense from that point of view.

The game has got many different types of weapons and armour interlapping over many different time frames.
If you think about it, and please don't go too deep into things here, but Bodkins were used against mail & plate by the British since they were more adept arrows at piercing armour while more "khergit style" people you were more well known for their horse archery skills would have been fighting people with lighter armour, more easily cut so cutting arrows would have been much more useful.

Now, we all know that this doesn't happen within cRPG because of the crossed timezones and armour types, pierce has always seemed to be better across the board with more of an advantage at the heavier range of equipment, makes perfect sense but when you start allowing bows that would never have fired a piercing arrow because of what they were designed to fight, it starts to become a grey area and you have to stop thinking about realism or even logic because it's perfectly acceptable to say "all bows can fire all arrows" because unlike for example, crossbows or guns, the bolts/bullets need to suit to the barrel size etc, I mean, if you had a twig, you could effectively fire it from a bow, but try shoving one into your gun and you know it's not going to end well.

From that point, it brings me to why I believe that from a gameplay point of view, having bows with different abilities, in this case, the longbow being the only bow to use pierce damage, makes sense, it's a lot slower than the cutting bows, it's got only slightly better range than other bows these days and therefore needs something to identify itself as being a worthwhile weapon other than it's stunning good looks.

I find it rather disconcerting that people are able to run around on horseback using bodkin arrows, Horse Archers, and please don't get me wrong, have always been a sub-class, one that is there to get its kicks from being a massive pain in the arse, they should be able to get kills but they shouldn't be firing at heavy armoured targets because lets face it, they wouldn't be in their set time zone.
With regards to that, taking the horse archery bows onto foot again, the same thing really, these bows are supposed to be fired quicker and the way the game balance works for these is that they're supposed to be the fast weak bows that are still viable to kill, while the Rus Bow is the mid-way bow, reasonable damage and reasonable speed at the cost of 2 slot while the longbow is the "damage god" but uselessly slow.

I honestly still don't have many problems with the horn bow/tatar bow wielding horse archers/footarchers but that's just by the way I play, i'm not exposed or helpless against them and therefore can dispatch them pretty effectively while melee will see them more and more often because basically to be frank, you're bloody easy targets with your lack of shield, slow movement speed & lack of spacial awareness.

In short, arrows dictating the damage type needs to be tweaked at the very least, not a fan of handing out buffs to sub-classes of archery that really didn't need them because they chose those sub-classes in order to play the way they wanted, doing more damage just increases the incentive to go for one build over another. As I said, the longbow being the only piercing bow allowed for people to go specifically for a longbow build to do high damage because they wanted to play like that, if they wanted to be faster, then they went for the hornbow/rusbow.

I hope that makes sense, but in short, I really don't care about what happens as long as the longbow stays piercing although I do like the idea of the "arrow logic" but the gamebalance appears to be, from a melee perspective, to be buggered.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Lichen on October 04, 2011, 07:35:19 pm
One idea is to drop the base bow damage of all bows except the longbow. Then bodkins would be much less to not at all effective when used with the other bows. All cut arrows would then need to have buffed damage so when used with the other bows total damage is again the same when using cut. Main possible problem is you could use the higher damage cut arrows with a long bow, which may or may not be too powerful.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Corwin on October 05, 2011, 11:28:04 am
I apologize for quoting from another thread, but this is practically the same discussion, taking place at two separate topics.

Selective perception. You probably don't use a shield and as a shieldless 2h/polearm guy you feel insulted when being shot/thrown at. But cRPG is not a ranged fest. On the contrary, ranged is pretty weak here - at least compared to Native.

People forgot how strong ranged has been is past patches but because the majority of players is 2h or polearm, they want it weakened no matter what. Their hysteria is cumulative. They make up hidden ranged buffs and perceived ranged growing rates of several hundert percent. All this while the ranged kill sum hasn't been growing for month. Yes, it is an indicator for ranged performance and we are working on better ones.

Giving ranged the new armor parameters fucks it up too much. This is different to melee which has a high cadence and a couple of hits more against a heavily armored target isn't that bad in my opinion. It's better than random glances. But a longbow archers needing his whole quiver to take down a loomed kujak doesn't feel right to me while glancing with weak bows seems ok.

I understand the argument about selective perception, but there are still few things missing when talking about statistics. First of all, relation between a number of players playing certain class pure or hybrid (and I know this would be a bitch to calculate) and percentage of kills. For example, crossbows kill 3.79% and maybe half of headshots being the most accurate ranged weapon, which brings us to maybe 7%. However, if number of players playing crossbowmen is around 2%, that leads to conclusion that crossbows are overpowered. Or, if there are 20% of players playing crossbow, that would mean that this weapon is seriously underpowered. Also, if I were you, I would do my best to compare this statistic with the one showing damage, as someone already suggested.
Second, I don't think that there was ever a situation when longbowmen needed more than 3 arrows to kill person in loomed kuyak. And that is with negative bonus.
Thirdly, you should definitely take in consideration and carefully read what Jambi, Gisbert and Tenne, being among the most experienced bowmen at least on EU say about this whole issue.

The Hornbow definatly needs a nerf, and so does the Tatar bow now. If these bows fire Bodkin arrows, the speed/damage ratio is just insane.

Level 30
    15/24 / 18/21  Hornbow Bow
or 21/18 Tatar bow build are just way too OP.

At the end I would say that, at least to me, comparisons with Native don't mean anything. I thought you were trying (and succeeding so far) to make something much better than Native.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Ujin on October 20, 2011, 02:22:58 am
All i can say is that i really like the idea of arrows determining the type of damage , which is somewhat realistic, but i really hate the troubles  this change is bringing atm : increased ranged spam, increased range dmg, longbow being a useless (okay, non-popular) weapon again etc.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Adalwulf on October 20, 2011, 04:00:27 am

+1

Longbow should be the only bow with pierce damage.
And as already mentioned for a hundred times, the overpowered rus bow becomes even more overpowered due to that -.-

Wrong, Longbow should have greatest range. Arrow heads are what gave cut and pierce damage. Not the type of bow, that makes no sense...
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 20, 2011, 11:30:48 pm
Wrong, Longbow should have greatest range. Arrow heads are what gave cut and pierce damage. Not the type of bow, that makes no sense...
I agreee the longbow needs a shot speed buff
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Adalwulf on October 20, 2011, 11:40:39 pm
I agreee the longbow needs a shot speed buff

As it stands longbow is utterly useless and costs a fortune.
Title: Re: (Stats) Bows again determine type of damage, not arrows?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 21, 2011, 12:42:00 am
As it stands longbow is utterly useless and costs a fortune.
Ofc its only useable by a couple of good Longbowmen this time like Tenne,Gisbert,Coldblood and a few others