cRPG

cRPG => Announcements => Topic started by: chadz on September 23, 2011, 11:53:47 pm

Title: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: chadz on September 23, 2011, 11:53:47 pm
Just a quick announcement that we decided to change the way item balance works. We are considering the raw tuning of the items complete now and are now starting the finetuning. This means you can expect only very small (and documented) changes to items from now on.

We have increased our item balancing team from 3 to 5 (or are in it right now, first new pick is okiN), and changes are now only done when a majority agrees with the proposed change.

Why am I telling you this? Mostly, so you can understand how we work. Also, that you can now, more or less, rely on the item stats we have. Of course, some things might still change, but common sense should be able to tell you which ones that could be.

Also, we want to propose a new way for forum members to propose changes. If you put up a poll in the item balance suggestion with the format "[STATS] change speed from xyz from 33 to 32" and put up a vote with "yes" and "no", we will have a look at it, and if enough people vote yes(around 50%), we'll put up the suggestion in our internal board for evaluation. It is, of course, important to have real values and realistic values. We will then tell you what our internal evaluation has decided and, most importantly, why.

So, tl;dr:
Item stats changes are now smaller,
they are documented,
you can do stat changes too!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: BaldRider on September 23, 2011, 11:56:01 pm
So, who's the number 5 of balance?
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: cmp on September 23, 2011, 11:56:35 pm
Panos.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 23, 2011, 11:59:27 pm
Panos.

Michael or Patricia would have been my choice for item balancers. I figured Panos would have been a better PR guy and a terrific Global moderator.

On topic though, this is nice to hear, though I hope this will mainly effect the "stats" more then the requirements of most items. I am very happy to hear that everything will be documented now.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Bjarky on September 24, 2011, 12:01:54 am
Panos.
+1 only proper decision, like evar.
mod is now almost not dead  :idea:
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 24, 2011, 12:04:15 am
I am interested to see how this works out

In before archery does 0 damage
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Arrowblood on September 24, 2011, 12:17:37 am
i can see destroed builds yet.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Akryn on September 24, 2011, 12:24:45 am
Inb4 horses all are changed to donkeys or have a Riding requirement of 12.

On a serious note, glad to hear about these changes.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Corwin on September 24, 2011, 12:28:09 am
Only small changes? I suppose that means archery remains pierce.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 24, 2011, 12:32:16 am
I dont like where this is going

item balance + democracy + MMO culture
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: B3RS3RK on September 24, 2011, 12:47:48 am
I dont like where this is going

item balance + democracy + MMO culture

Yeah better leave it at dictatorship.History proves that the most useful form of Government.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Polobow on September 24, 2011, 12:48:54 am
If it is added in, where would we be able to create those polls, and will they have a limit?

I guess game balance sub-forum would make sense.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Arked on September 24, 2011, 12:49:12 am
Can we please have new team responsible for implementing new models/items into cRPG?! I BEG YOU!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Jarlek on September 24, 2011, 12:50:42 am
Wait. So spear&shield is always gonna be as fucked in a 1v1 as they are now? Or are you just talking about the items themselves and not the classes?
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: BalrogBoru on September 24, 2011, 12:54:38 am
Finally, documentation!

On the other hand, I think Bjarky is correct.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Christo on September 24, 2011, 12:56:25 am
Wait. So spear&shield is always gonna be as fucked in a 1v1 as they are now? Or are you just talking about the items themselves and not the classes?

Items, that's what this is about.

I really hope spear/shield becomes viable, then I'd finally get back into this, to make my jack of all trades polearm char.

 :)

Anyways good to see that we're going somewhere.
Keep it up guys.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 24, 2011, 01:09:47 am
Yeah better leave it at dictatorship.History proves that the most useful form of Government.

i want a republican form of govt balance you fucking back woods reject

Well err ifurnot democritic ur a commernist dictermaship right?



democracy in its raw form is the absolute worst form of govt on the earth
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Varyag on September 24, 2011, 01:09:58 am
WE WANT STRATEGUS!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Arrowblood on September 24, 2011, 01:11:20 am
WE WANT STRATEGUS!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 24, 2011, 01:12:01 am
WE WANT STRATEGUS!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Jarlek on September 24, 2011, 01:13:11 am
WE WANT STRATEGUS!
NO! WE WANT BUGFREE STRATEGUS!

(So take the time you need and ignore the whiners. Remember that those who said they would rather have old bugged up Strat where those who whined the most)
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 24, 2011, 01:20:48 am
NO! WE WANT BUGFREE STRATEGUS!

(So take the time you need and ignore the whiners about strat being buggy and rape them in the ass. Remember that those who said they would rather have old bugged up Strat where those who whined the most got you to put it back in for a handful of awesome weeks)
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 24, 2011, 01:21:10 am
This could be very good, hoping archery and xbows wont get nerfed too hard because it is really not op the problem is you have to counter it.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: DrKronic on September 24, 2011, 01:22:59 am
hey can we have a NA item balancer on board, I suggest myself, my credentials, I'm in the credits of first M+B and I alpha'd or beta'd about every major MMORPG ever made(you have my donation name, just look)
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Patricia on September 24, 2011, 01:26:44 am
I vote myself as the NA representative item balancer.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: The_Angle on September 24, 2011, 01:27:51 am
i want a republican form of govt balance you fucking back woods reject

Well err ifurnot democritic ur a commernist dictermaship right?



democracy in its raw form is the absolute worst form of govt on the earth

Lol Fascist - its not about the government, its about the people bro. Its all about the people. A Communist Dictatorship - is not true Communism.

Otherwise... this could be a godsend or a catastrophe. Lets watch and wait.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 24, 2011, 01:39:24 am
hey can we have a NA item balancer on board

We actually already do.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: SeQuel on September 24, 2011, 02:12:04 am
Letting the community decide on balance changes

Oh god.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: karasu on September 24, 2011, 02:17:31 am
Only small changes? I suppose that means archery remains pierce.

Even worst, loomed arbalest + steel bolts will be 1 shotters forever.

gg

At least I have some hope now since Okin has good judgements regarding item balancing.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Earthdforce on September 24, 2011, 02:29:15 am
We actually already do.
Shik?
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: highglandeur on September 24, 2011, 02:34:21 am
at least there is no couching lance trucks and piercing AK spammers on EU3...i miss risen serv more than ever!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 24, 2011, 02:40:52 am
Shik?
Indeed.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 24, 2011, 05:13:22 am
Lol Fascist - its not about the government, its about the people bro. Its all about the people. A Communist Dictatorship - is not true Communism.

Otherwise... this could be a godsend or a catastrophe. Lets watch and wait.

what im was trying to say to that guy is that without any discretion from the devs this form of 'balance' turns into collective lobbying thus a democratic take on balance sucks. In which case he compared dictatorships in govt to dictatorships in balance
(THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY FUCKING DIFFERENT THINGS U DUMBASS) which makes me rage because of how much i hate idiots.

(click to show/hide)

but for now ill choose to believe this is a social experiment on the part of chadz. hes writing a paper for his phsychology class over the effects of democracy on gamers. Im sure his paper will be published in a magazine soon
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Banok on September 24, 2011, 05:20:07 am
sounds good.

who is panos?

how does one get on the item balance team?
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Varyag on September 24, 2011, 05:36:51 am
Quote
how does one get on the item balance team?
Well, from what I heard from panos, he likes boys...in terms of homosexuality...
You can figure out the rest...  :lol:
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: MrShine on September 24, 2011, 05:49:31 am
chadz said that well thought out threads that have 50%+ of votes would be put up for internal discussion, not that the community will be able to dictate buffs and nerfs.  Chill out ya nerds.

Great info, documenting changes will really help with balance in general, and I'm glad we'll be able to see them!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Digglez on September 24, 2011, 09:40:19 am
good news Donkeycrew.  game really does play alot better than when I joined in March '11.  Much more balanced and skill/tactic based.

Keep it up
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Teeth on September 24, 2011, 11:20:52 am
Finally they commence the fine tuning. Awesome!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 25, 2011, 05:26:39 pm
Are you sure about this pollthingy about item changes?

Most changes will be stupid stuff as in the suggestionscorner.
And many people will just vote, because they hate a certain item used by a certain class...what you get then is a vote that doesn't balance the game, but that would (if changed by devs)  make the game easier for alot of whiny kids...

Please rethink that. Suggestions corner is bad enough.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Jarlek on September 25, 2011, 06:30:32 pm
Are you sure about this pollthingy about item changes?

Most changes will be stupid stuff as in the suggestionscorner.
And many people will just vote, because they hate a certain item used by a certain class...what you get then is a vote that doesn't balance the game, but that would (if changed by devs)  make the game easier for alot of whiny kids...

Please rethink that. Suggestions corner is bad enough.
They still gonna discuss it themselves. Not like everything that gets over 50% is gonna be accepted.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Christo on September 25, 2011, 06:55:16 pm
Well, but even if a suggestion makes sense, haters or simply ignorants would just downvote a well thought-out topic.

So I guess, polls are.. polls. Nothing serious.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Vibe on September 25, 2011, 07:16:33 pm
Letting the community decide on balance changes

Oh god.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Mtemtko on September 25, 2011, 11:01:05 pm
(first new pick is okiN)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 25, 2011, 11:01:41 pm
They still gonna discuss it themselves. Not like everything that gets over 50% is gonna be accepted.

I know, but still....devs changed alot of things that were discussed by the community before....so I don't believe this "We discuss everything ourselves and don't take/do what the community voted for" :/
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Jambi on September 25, 2011, 11:22:10 pm
Just a quick announcement that we decided to change the way item balance works. We are considering the raw tuning of the items complete now and are now starting the finetuning. This means you can expect only very small (and documented) changes to items from now on.

We have increased our item balancing team from 3 to 5 (or are in it right now, first new pick is okiN), and changes are now only done when a majority agrees with the proposed change.

Why am I telling you this? Mostly, so you can understand how we work. Also, that you can now, more or less, rely on the item stats we have. Of course, some things might still change, but common sense should be able to tell you which ones that could be.

Also, we want to propose a new way for forum members to propose changes. If you put up a poll in the item balance suggestion with the format "[STATS] change speed from xyz from 33 to 32" and put up a vote with "yes" and "no", we will have a look at it, and if enough people vote yes(around 50%), we'll put up the suggestion in our internal board for evaluation. It is, of course, important to have real values and realistic values. We will then tell you what our internal evaluation has decided and, most importantly, why.

So, tl;dr:
Item stats changes are now smaller,
they are documented,
you can do stat changes too!

From all teams of 5... i think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YriinrRGug can do a better job balancing out CRPG. :P

You have got too...
Swing it , Shake it, Move it, MAKE IT!
Who do you think you are...
Show me how good you are...

Anyways all trolling aside, good luck devs!  :wink:
Make it worth the time the community put in this game!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Turkhammer on September 25, 2011, 11:43:40 pm
democracy in its raw form is the absolute worst form of govt on the earth

Except for all other forms.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Lars on September 26, 2011, 12:31:36 am
Wait. So spear&shield is always gonna be as fucked in a 1v1 as they are now? Or are you just talking about the items themselves and not the classes?

Sper&shield Imo it's not a class for "solitary" players ala Kinngrimm,  the phalanx was effective cuz there were a group of  many spearmen/pikers etc..,  together they were able to keep the distance and  hit the enemies from different angles  ..  IMO in 1vs1 they would get owned .  I mean, how can it be a good class in 1vs 1 if you can only stab?
Imo spear&shield is a good support class for the group ,but it's not made for 1vs1... a good example Imo are the Denbitre guys with shield&spear/awlpike whatever,  they are very effective together .
Maybe i'm saying bs, but if i remeber well, Merc_Pully fights without his shield if he's forced in a 1vs1 fight, and he's good.

Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Classical on September 26, 2011, 12:39:38 am
From all teams of 5... i think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YriinrRGug can do a better job balancing out CRPG. :P

I'm not okay with the fact I just watched the Spice Girls for the first time again since 1998.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: spacebug on September 27, 2011, 08:33:41 pm
i want a republican form of govt balance you fucking back woods reject

Well err ifurnot democritic ur a commernist dictermaship right?



democracy in its raw form is the absolute worst form of govt on the earth

America is a republic, not a democracy.





Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 27, 2011, 08:36:18 pm
America is a republic, not a democracy.

He never said it was.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: spacebug on September 27, 2011, 08:37:35 pm
He never said it was.

That was the allusion. Ala the cliche American accent in typed form. :]

Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: LordBerenger on September 27, 2011, 08:48:02 pm
Make 22nd only ones part of the balance team.

= German Great Sword = 75 Pierce damage , 141 Speed, 132 Length , 57 Cut Damage and 10k gold price.

All Bows = 1 Blunt Damage + 2 Arrows per any sort of arrows quivers + 7 Accuracy + 29 Shot Speed + 21 Speed and 23k gold price.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Dexxtaa on September 27, 2011, 09:11:23 pm
This is paynos in my gut
I like this so much
Haikus are fucking cool yo
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Keshian on September 27, 2011, 09:15:08 pm
This is paynos in my gut
I like this so much
Haikus are fucking cool yo

Not sure were this is going
young man writing idly
while dreaming of very large butts.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Kafein on September 27, 2011, 10:07:45 pm
Not sure were this is going
young man writing idly
while dreaming of very large butts.
Wtf am I writing
I know I should not do this
yet I can't resist
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Joker86 on September 27, 2011, 11:23:51 pm
In my eyes the balancing is totally screwed, and only a complete overhaul from scratch can fix this.

This is why I don't appreciate this announcement.

I would actually love to have some kind of developer's blog that does not only tell us how things are changed, but also why and under which calculation (decision). Not only the already announced "we will increase cutting damage by 1"-messages, but also how all the other items until now have been balanced. Because the armours increasing constantly in price, weight and protection is a rather... "crude" way to balance things, and this is only one example...
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: ToxicKilla on October 07, 2011, 08:49:21 am
Aslong as price isn't used as a major balancing factor then I'm happy. Also, the balancing team should consist of one of each playing type.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: RiPLeY_II on October 07, 2011, 02:11:31 pm
Hey I made one poll for changing the steel pick requirement following the lines you stated in the post.

See how it works.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Phazey on October 07, 2011, 03:49:41 pm
Omg chadz killed the mod, again.

I'm shocked and slightly worried at the suggestion changes will be documented? I mean, what's next? A helpdesk contact email form? Phone support outsourced to india with endless queue's or even chat support? Silly hats for sale?

Hide your kids, hide your wife...  :lol:

On a more serious note: yay! Gj!
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Franke on October 07, 2011, 03:58:17 pm
Sper&shield Imo it's not a class for "solitary" players ala Kinngrimm,  the phalanx was effective cuz there were a group of  many spearmen/pikers etc..,  together they were able to keep the distance and  hit the enemies from different angles  ..  IMO in 1vs1 they would get owned .  I mean, how can it be a good class in 1vs 1 if you can only stab?
Imo spear&shield is a good support class for the group ,but it's not made for 1vs1... a good example Imo are the Denbitre guys with shield&spear/awlpike whatever,  they are very effective together .
Maybe i'm saying bs, but if i remeber well, Merc_Pully fights without his shield if he's forced in a 1vs1 fight, and he's good.

+1
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Jarlek on October 07, 2011, 06:18:57 pm
I am just a bit worried that 2/3 of the community will always downvote the last third. Twohanders and polearm users might go for nerfing the one hander items on the polls being that:

a) That change will not affect them
b) It will make things easier against some opponents on the battlefield
Sigh. It's been said before and it's said again.

Just because the COMMUNITY poll passes doesn't mean the change is gonna happen. It means the dev/balancers are gonna discuss it. If they think it's BS it's not gonna be changed.
Title: Re: Testing a new item balance method
Post by: Micah on October 07, 2011, 11:39:21 pm
i gonna miss the fascinating changes the big patches always brought and made everything and everyone magically becoming alive.. all the discussioins and emotions ... is game developement cursed to aim for stagnation like the rest of the world ? maybe its just me , but i wish there was always another BIG PATCH comming up ; changing everything, crushing dedicated OP builds and turning my world upside down, just for the fun of it =D
furthermore ...
thanks for opening to the community and telling us about what you do, chaaadz