cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 01:57:27 am

Title: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 01:57:27 am
Archers, get off the roof already.

Why are you up there? It's not fair, no one can reach you to hit you unless they have a ranged weapon or a ladder. Why should everyone have to carry a ranged weapon or a ladder? Those take up a lot of slots and how dare you force the other team to have to bring some ladders just because you did. You're stalling the round and making all of us get less EXP and gold per hour, you aren't just hurting us, you're hurting yourselves too.

Archers, get off the roof already.

The only way you should be playing the game is to equip a two hander or pole arm and a lot of armor or MAYBE a one hander and shield combo and then run into melee in a honourable and straight forward manner. I'm getting tired of all this tactics shit, and THINKING and using all this dumb shit the game provides you with like ranged weapons and ladders.

Archers, get off the roof already.

And further more, once you have your two hander equiped and are playing like A MAN, don't try and be all clever and hide and shit, and try and ambush people and try to manuever around, trying to isolate people and overwhelm them and all this shit. Who do you think you are, fucking JOHN RAMBO or something? Are you and your clan mates like the guys in Band of Brothers or something trying to out fight the SS or some shit? KNOCK THAT SHIT OFF, YOU'RE STALLING THE ROUND AND ROBBING ME OF MY EXP AND GOLD.

Archers, get off the roof already.

Also, when you have your Bec or your Flamberge or whatever, don't block attacks like a my old friend. Can people stop equiping shields and trying to weapon block all the time? It's not fair. People can't hit you if you're blocking and dodging around and all this shit when you fight, it makes their attacks do NO DAMAGE, ZERO. Knock that shit off you're stalling the round and making all of us get less EXP and gold per hour, you aren't just hurting us, you're hurting yourselves too.

Archers, get off the roof already.

This game is about rounds ending promptly and me getting my EXP and my GOLD, it is not some bullshit medieval combat simulator for you and your my old friend reinactor buddies to have pretend battles with and try and out wit and out play eachother while you fuck over all the good honest players like myself who don't want to have to plan against your "strategy" and "cunning". We came here to equip whatever the fuck gear WE PLANNED ON (a two hander, duh) and have it kill people we swing it at. OH AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON HOW GAY CAV ARE.

Archers, well, I think you get my point by now. STOP BEING my old friendS.

Ugh, writing this post just screwed me out of so much EXP and GOLD.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Nihtgenga on September 13, 2011, 02:02:35 am
booooring

und taeglich gruesst das Murmeltier -.-
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: SeQuel on September 13, 2011, 02:08:58 am
I don't get it.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 02:14:07 am
God invented ladders for a reason, so you can combat Satan's bows....

I suggest trying them out, or waiting for Master of the Field.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kenji on September 13, 2011, 02:20:39 am
In my very honest and personal opinion of what you think: boring rage post.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Varyag on September 13, 2011, 02:32:57 am
Archers, get off the roof already.


Holster ur bows, bow down and prepare to die...
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Rumblood on September 13, 2011, 02:42:44 am
Just ride your horse up onto the roof, what your issue?  :idea:
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 02:43:36 am
Just ride your horse up onto the roof, what your issue?  :idea:

Yeah plenty of people do that, the OP must be new like Huey.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kryser on September 13, 2011, 02:47:37 am
You Know that if someone suggests waiting for MOTF a dumb ass public player that cant read chat will go die during the last minute right.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 02:48:31 am
You Know that if someone suggests waiting for MOTF a dumb ass public player that cant read chat will go die during the last minute right.

That is what makes it funny, you get to see all the raging vets.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 02:50:49 am
The point of the post was that while I have NEVER played an archer and almost never hide on a roof and shoot at people with anything, anytime I see some one say

"Get off the roof!"

to an archer who is actively firing and not just wasting time standing there idle, I want to punch them in the face for saying it. I even see ADMINS doing this, telling them to get down and like, trying to kick vote them and shit. What is your problem? He's an archer and he blew a ton of slots to have a ladder to beable to safely fire on people who don't have ranged weapons. It's a smart move, either take ladders out of the game or get off his balls already.

Seriously, it's like telling people to stop using shields or stop blocking and dodging attacks so much, cause they are prolonging the round. It's pointless, childish behaviour. If you don't like roof archers, stop dying so early in rounds that it annoys you (since most people don't care as long as they are still alive I find) and figure out a way to kill them or just wait them out. They are going to stop doing it if they just keep getting killed or losing their multiplier to master of the field loses.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 02:52:31 am
I like this guy, he must be new.

I appreciate the rage, but it is pointless as the community will never change. I always smirk whenever I see someone rage about archers as it means I am doing my job right (My main is an archer).

At the end of the day, every class will have idjits who rage at other classes.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 03:09:40 am
I appreciate the rage, but it is pointless as the community will never change. I always smirk whenever I see someone rage about archers as it means I am doing my job right (My main is an archer).

I don't care for this sort of defeatist attitude when it comes to anything and it's a perception I seem to be encounting with increasing regularity as of late, this cynical idea that "Whelp, that's HUMAN NATURE, no point in trying to change it or complain about it."

I agree, people are always going to be little bitches who blame anything that affects them badly on some outside source other than themselves and that psychology has pretty much proven this to be the NATURAL behaviour of human kind but you know what? What comes natural is not always correct or the best way to do things, or some thing that we have to forever surrender to. If everyone ever born thought that way, we would have no science, art, philosophy, peace, anything, because our natural tendancy is to be lazy, always favour immediate satisfaction over the bigger picture, and fear and distrust anything we aren't familiar with.

A mature, rational adult, living in 2011 should not strive to simply bow to the will of human nature, that is a crutch of the weak, the stupid and the slothenly. It is not being a realist, it is being a wimp who never wants to see anything improved or anything grow because it's TOO HARD.

Now, that said, a realist has to acknowledge that this is going to be the natural behaviour of the community and expect people to act this way sometimes and not get to angry about it. But it should not be condoned, promoted, applauded or encouraged by Admins. It should at least be ignored, and at best, discouraged.

Also, I'm not very new to C-RPG, I just haven't played regularly for a little while until now. My characters are Literally_James and Chick_James although I have changed them to Archers_James and Archers_Chick_James as none of the old Literally clan seem to be around anymore and I'm trying to start a new clan called "Archers". Because you know what I always say, "Archers".

TortoiseAndTheHare was the nick name of the last generation of my James Character who had 10 shields and 10 athletics and fought with nothing but an heirloomed Huscarl shield and a Khyber Knife.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:13:14 am
I don't care for this sort of defeatist attitude when it comes to anything and it's a perception I seem to be encounting with increasing regularity as of late, this cynical idea that "Whelp, that's HUMAN NATURE, no point in trying to change it or complain about it."

It is not defeatist, it is a realist view. 8 Months here and the archer rage has only increased despite nothing but nerfs with every patch.

People are stupid, welcome to online gaming.

At the end of they day, I pew pew pew and I run run run, and the "melee only" players are the ones raging, not me.

See, I used to care, then I realized.... Their opinion is pretty much worthless when it comes to effecting my playstyle, because their raging does not effect my ability to sink an arrow into them (it only makes it easier as they have to stop to type).
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 13, 2011, 03:22:45 am
I personally don't have a problem with bows. Well, xbows can go fuck themselves but that's a different issue...

The problem with roof camping is it's a good way to make rounds long and boring or end in draws.

When one team roof camps, then the other team starts to camp and then...zzzzzzzz I start to fall asleep. If you're going to camp, what's wrong with camping on the ground so we can...you know...battle?

Also, this logic fails:

God invented ladders for a reason, so you can combat Satan's bows....

I suggest trying them out

So I am supposed to carry a ladder ALL the way to where the enemy team is camping without getting killed. Then, I need to get a majority of my team UP the ladder before it is destroyed. Yeah...I kinda don't see that happening.

Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:23:51 am
So I am supposed to carry a ladder ALL the way to where the enemy team is camping without getting killed. Then, I need to get a majority of my team UP the ladder before it is destroyed. Yeah...I kinda don't see that happening.

Ladders, ladder spam, teamwork, MotF, Jumping horses, sniping, not getting shot, having mad skillz, ingenuity, QMD the map, kill all the groundpounders to force the roof campers to jump etc.

It was not meant to be "logic" it was meant to be the very first two solutions that came to mind. But yeah, I agree that roofcamping is boring hence why I mainly run-and-gun.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 13, 2011, 03:32:26 am
Regardless, you shouldn't be able to use ladders on battle maps. All it takes is one asshole bringing a ladder to ruin a map.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:33:10 am
Regardless, you shouldn't be able to use ladders on battle maps. All it takes is one asshole bringing a ladder to ruin a map.

I would push for the removal of Ladders from battle if we get maps that have no "natural camp spots" with only one way up.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 03:36:12 am
Fuck that shit tears, some maps are good for cav others are good for archer, take a melee weapon and quit running.

Ladder dont counter ladder since they break so fast, the roofers will usually destroy it before you get someone halfway up there.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:37:39 am
Fuck that shit tears, some maps are good for cav others are good for archer, take a melee weapon and quit running.

My PS0 and 1 WPF and 0 slot melee weapon vs your dedicated melee? No, "fuck that shit." And don't you dare say "then only use one quiver or a 1 slot bow" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Grab a bow or shield noob!"
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 03:39:04 am
I grab a suit of plate, same result, I dont mind archers but runners piss me off.

A 1 slot bow and 1 arrow pack with a longsword works very well by the way.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:39:56 am
I grab a suit of plate, same result, I dont mind archers but runners piss me off.

A 1 slot bow and 1 arrow pack with a longsword works very well by the way.

My PS0 and 1 WPF and 0 slot melee weapon vs your dedicated melee? No, "fuck that shit." And don't you dare say "then only use one quiver or a 1 slot bow" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Grab a bow or shield noob!"

You know, a high AGI character with a shield works quite well to catch running archers, ask Matey.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 03:41:10 am
Yeah but the killing output sucks donkey balls.

By the way how the fuck am I able to fit 70 2h wpf and 7 powerstrike on my archer along with 140 archery wpf and 7 powerdraw and you cant seem to have 1 point in either?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 13, 2011, 03:42:47 am
I would push for the removal of Ladders from battle if we get maps that have no "natural camp spots" with only one way up.

I'm fine with these even if they have only one way up. 'Cause at least that one way up is permanent. If the other team is smart they'll just get their shielders to make a strategic push. I do that all the time, myself.

My PS0 and 1 WPF and 0 slot melee weapon vs your dedicated melee? No, "fuck that shit." And don't you dare say "then only use one quiver or a 1 slot bow" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Grab a bow or shield noob!"

I agree with you here though. I get annoyed at people when they get mad at someone for playing their class. Shit, I don't even get mad at HA's. Everybody has a different idea of what a fun class is. So, let them play.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:43:45 am
Yeah but the killing output sucks equus africanus asinus balls.

By the way how the fuck am I able to fit 70 2h wpf and 7 powerstrike on my archer along with 140 archery wpf and 7 powerdraw and you cant seem to have 1 point in either?

Gee, I dunno... It is like you went one style of archer and I went the other style...
Going out on a limb here and saying that my level 33 archer with 8PD 7WM and 5ATHL perhaps spent his points differently and chose to be entirely focused at pew pew pew... Crazy how people can build different things and do different playstyles...

BTW how the fuck am I able to fit 8PD and 7WM in archery and you can't have that high in either?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 03:45:11 am
I can have 10 power strike 10 ironflesh 3 ath and 3 weapon master at level 31

Thats at least 3 points more than you and I converted 4 times, you should have points avaible  :?

Edit: Rusty I don't hate HA either, mostly because they do about .5 damage and that they usually quit kitting the 10 man team when they're the last man alive.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 03:47:09 am
I can have 10 power strike 10 ironflesh 3 ath and 3 weapon master at level 31

Thats at least 3 points more than you and I converted 4 times, you should have points avaible  :?

30 STR Plus 9 AGI = 39 Attributes
24 STR Plus 21 AGI = 45 Attributes...

Think about it.... Maybe it will click what I did.... I will give you a hint... My level 30 Build was 24 STR and 18 AGI, which equals 42.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 04:31:13 am
The thing about breaking ladders is you have to swing a weapon to do it and the thing about swinging weapons is that it makes it so you can't possibly be shielding while you do it so as long as your team has archers or throwers, you can just harrass or kill the ladder breakers while melee guys charge up the ladder. It's not rocket science.

The guys on the roof still have the advantage of better cover and range on their weapons in this situation but the thing is, you can't win a round from a roof unless you just kill everyone on the enemy team. Eventually it's going to go to master of the field and the flags are never placed on a roof with no map ladders to it.

I'm all for kicking people who can't do anything from the roof they are on who are just standing there like statues wasting everyone's time, but as long as they are trying to kill people I find yelling at them to be childish and dumb. The same goes for any other yelling at people who are trying to draw the other team into a favourable position for them in any other way. It's not anyone's job to make a round end sooner. It is just a courtesy to not wander around, stand on rooves, stand at the bottom of ponds and that sort of pointless garbage when there are 5 people left in the round and 80 other people sitting on their hands having no fun.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Leesin on September 13, 2011, 04:38:18 am
I don't even see this is an issue anymore, atleast on EU where I play, if the archers are the last ones alive and on a roof with no way up, they must come down as the rules state, if there is way up then they can stay there. I rarely ever see anyone not playing by those rules and when they do not listen to the admin chat, they get kicked.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Dach on September 13, 2011, 04:41:24 am
I can have 10 power strike 10 ironflesh 3 ath and 3 weapon master at level 31

Message to anyone that make that kind of build, I'll probably make you run. Rage all you want, you choose to be good at melee, not my problem if you can't run...  :lol:
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 04:44:11 am
Eh most of the time their arrow dont do shit to me so I just stop to tell that, noone listens :(
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Dach on September 13, 2011, 04:47:40 am
Well remind me of Serge that was whining on the server last night...

he was whining about ranged in general when his score is like 24-3.

Playing easy mode and they still whine...  :rolleyes: :lol:
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 04:58:05 am
Fuck that shit Emperor of flower just butchered my team 5 vs 1 with massive kitting taking an axe and breaking the shielder shield and then more kitting.

The amount of skill required to do that is abyssimal, so I'd say kite kite archer are easy mode.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: justjr on September 13, 2011, 04:58:15 am
This is Medieval Warfare, deal with it.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Croaker McGee on September 13, 2011, 05:05:45 am
This is Medieval Warfare, deal with it.

Exactly. If you want 'honorable' combat, stick to the duel servers. Tactics and different playstyles are what make battles and sieges fun.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 05:22:00 am
Ladders, ladder spam, teamwork, MotF, Jumping horses, sniping, not getting shot, having mad skillz, ingenuity, QMD the map, kill all the groundpounders to force the roof campers to jump etc.
To get back a bit on topic...


Ladders=they break
ladder spam=same
teamwork=? What is that on a public game
MotF=can work except those times where the flag is by the roof
Jumping horse=yeah get me horse that can reach a roof
Sniping=can work, but their archer have the advantage of not having to fear cavalry, so advantage roofers
not getting shot=they're alive too
mad skillz=can work if you're lucky and noone watch the ladder otherwise you can be the best meleer in the world that wont do squat
ingenuity=map dependent
QMD=one whole team wont QMD it
kill all=unless there's an admin that actually kick the roofers, that does not do anything

And don't you dare say "then use an item you dont have that people using a roofs force you to" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Up yours, change your style if you're forcing me to change mine"
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: MrShine on September 13, 2011, 05:28:22 am
I've played both sides.

Personally tin cans that whine about archers kiting and "being pussies" annoy me about as much as archers that don't wear any melee weapon and will just continue to run - to the point of absurdity or against other low armor/peasant types.

On the one hand I think archers do need to "be men" in some occasions.  But expecting an archer to engage in melee with a 2H/polearm beast in full plate at the first opportunity is just as absurd.

Do things like HA/HC/rooftop camping ranged tick me off when I'm melee w/ no shield?  Absolutely.  It's also part of the game and you need to adapt.  Just like I bust out a long spear if the enemy team is destroying us with cav, I'll bust out my rank 1 board shield if the other team has a bunch of range and will try to avoid those areas during the course of the battle.  If all else fails and it's just archers camping a roof somewhere, well that's when MOTF is your friend :)

I do think destroyable ladders need to be looked at in battle.  However the current system works well enough in most cases to be effective.

And don't you dare say "then use an item you dont have that people using a roofs force you to" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Up yours, change your style if you're forcing me to change mine"

You shouldn't be required to change your playing style, just don't expect it to be easy to beat certain other playing styles and be willing to live with the consequences if you refused to change :)
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 13, 2011, 05:44:50 am
words

L2P

And don't you dare say "then use an item you dont have that people using a roofs force you to" because the instant you demand that I change my playing style, I get to as well and tell you "Up yours, change your style if you're forcing me to change mine"

Oh wait... You already did a couple of posts up!  :mrgreen: I loled hard.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 06:05:53 am
Mmmm fuck I realised you misunderstood that part of my words, I meant to say that a horn bow + arrow + longsword is still effective, not that you should do it  :?

Now now, I cant didacte you to change your style to adapt to mine right? Why should I be the one forced to change for roofers?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 06:29:54 am
LOL at someone who can't tell the difference between:

-whining at someone to stop playing the game they way they do because they don't like it
-someone changing their play style to beat someone else's.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 06:38:05 am
Oh so because Tears can outkite me and kill me I should change my style, just like I should change to kill the roofers?
Nope
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Dach on September 13, 2011, 06:50:05 am
that argument will just run in infinite circle...

Both option are in the game, so DEAL WITH IT or be a whiney bitch...

Whatever suit you!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 06:50:34 am
I'll deal with and whine about it at the same, because I am multifonctionnal :D
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Brrrak on September 13, 2011, 06:54:54 am
+1 for satire (on the op.)

And where the fuck are our pavises, already!? 
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Rumblood on September 13, 2011, 07:21:21 am
There is nearly as many styles as there are archers. I'm a battle archer myself, but don't expect others to do the same. My standard practice is to run out in the open field and play bull fighting with the cavalry. They come at me with their horny lances and I stand my ground till the last moment when I can release my arrow and jump out of the way, hopefully spilling a rider onto the ground for a well placed arrow into their posterior as it slides across the ground. (@lvl 30 - 15/24 5 PD 5 PS 5 Ath 8 WM - 150 WPF Archery 101 WPF 1 hander - MW Horn Bow - MW Bodkins - MW Long Espada/Iberian Mace)

My k/d is terrible as a result. But I know that what I do doesn't show up on the stats board. Horses drop like flies around me. Melee teammates within my range win a greater percentage of their duels because of all the stunned opponents they face as a result of my arrows.

So yes, it is a viable and very fun build (if you ignore the scoreboard). But don't ask the slow draw, slow running, no melee skill, pure archer builds with high PD to walk out onto the open field to plink at you.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 13, 2011, 07:49:44 am
I'm going to have to chime in here, as I hate roof-camping more than anything else in the game.

The arguments for Pro-Roof-Camping (or 1) are : a) Archer is hard! ; b) I'm not a melee fighter! ; c) Cavalry kills me while I shoot at other people! ; d) People fought on roofs in medieval times!

Ok, acknowledged.

The arguments for Anti-Roof-Camping (or 2) are : a) We can't fight back! ; b) It delays rounds! ; c) People leech! ; d) People fought in fields/forests/mountains in medieval times!

That's about it, yeah?

So ,
1a) Yes, archer is hard. It got nerfed pretty badly. Sorry guys.

1b) Melee fighters aren't ranged fighters. You have the advantage anywhere but face to face. Imagine a battle where you archers had absolutely no one to shoot. It would suck, right? That's how melee ppl feel right now.

1c) Try paying attention to cavalry, they really really don't want to fight an aware ANYTHING. Horses die like dodo birds when people are watching them.

1d) Yeah they did. Doesn't mean it's fun for anyone but the people in the nests.

Ok, now,

2a) This is exactly why people hate it so much. On the ground, a ranged fighter can kill just like any other member of his team. When he's on a roof, it becomes a ranged vs ranged fight, making the rest of the team useless. Not cool guys.

2b) It has delayed rounds in the past, but that doesn't mean it always will. But when a round IS delayed, in my experience, it has usually been 3-4 archers up on a roof/tower, refusing to move until all melee is dead.

2c) Same argument as 2b really. People that aren't even ranged get up on the roof/tower with their ranged buddies, and sit there being useless. Not the archers fault, but definitely an argument for getting rid of ladders in battle.

2d) This is what people think of when they think of medieval battle, maybe because that's how the media told us it was done. The reason I prefer to think like this is because EVERYONE can be useful and participate in the battle from beginning to end. Good argument for sticking to field battles, rather than villages/towns OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I think the Anti-Roof-Camping arguments hold a lot more water than the pro's, and I can't wait until they figure out some way to make this crap go away.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Gmnotutoo on September 13, 2011, 07:58:13 am
An essay on the need to buffing katanas


The subject of the need to buffing katanas has been covered intensively by the world press over the past decade. Underestimate the need to buffing katanas at your peril. While it has been acknowledged that it has an important part to play in the development of man, its influence on western cinema has not been given proper recognition. Inevitably the need to buffing katanas is often misunderstood by the aristocracy, who form the last great hope for our civilzation. Relax, sit back and gasp as I display the rich tapestries of the need to buffing katanas.

While some scholars have claimed that there is no such thing as society, this is rubbish. When The Tygers of Pan Tang sang 'It's lonely at the top. Everybody's trying to do you in' [1] , they globalised an issue which had remained buried in the hearts of our ancestors for centuries. A society without the need to buffing katanas is like a society without knowledge, in that it cleary plays a significant role amongst the developing middle classes.

Some analysts have been tempted to disregard the need to buffing katanas. I haven’t. It has been said that the one thing in society which could survive a nuclear attack is the need to buffing katanas. This is incorrect, actually cockroaches are the only thing which can survive a nuclear attack.

There has been a great deal of discussion in the world of economics, centred on the value of the need to buffing katanas. We will primarily be focusing on the Fish-Out-Of-Water model, a lovely model. Weaboo's = profit.   


There is no longer a need to argue the importance of the need to buffing katanas, it is clear to see that the results speak for themselves. The question which surfaces now is, how? Even a child could work out that the annual military budget has always depended upon the need to buffing katanas to a certain extent, but now more that ever. Perhaps to coin a phrase the need to buffing katanaseconomics will be the buzz word of the century

Politics was once a game featuring competitors from elite classes. Comparing the electoral politics of most Western and Eastern European countries is like comparing night and day.

One quote comes instantly to mind when examining this topic. I mean of course the words of jazz singer Demetrius T. Time 'Political idealists must ideally deal, for I daily list my ideals politically.' [2] One cannot help but agree when faced with the need to buffing katanas, that this highlights an important issue. It is a well known 'secret' that what prompted many politicians to first strive for power was the need to buffing katanas.

One thing's certain. The Human species liberally desires the need to buffing katanas, and what's more human than politics?

In my opinion the need to buffing katanas deserves all of the attention it gets. It enriches, ensures financial stability and figures show it's a winning formular.

As a parting shot here are the words of super-star Keanu Garfunkel: 'the need to buffing katanas is the new rock and roll! And the new opera!'
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tzar on September 13, 2011, 08:06:08 am
Kophka

Good point tobad they the archers cant seem to fuckin get the point that its not ok to be immortal  :rolleyes:

Ladders should be in siege and that´s about it they have nothing to do in battle mode other then turning the battle mode into siege...



Look at it this way imagine if you played siege and the attackers didnt have ladders or siege towers ect etc....
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: TortoiseAndTheHare on September 13, 2011, 08:21:13 am
+1 for satire (on the op.)

And where the fuck are our pavises, already!?

SERIOUSLY! WHERE ARE THEY? I made a crossbow character for my last gen but I abandoned it and went back to lancer cav and then made a thrower with a pavise for fun. The reason? WHERE THE FUCK IS MY PAVISE. Crossbow men need pavises damn it ;_;.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 13, 2011, 09:14:09 am
The thing about breaking ladders is you have to swing a weapon to do it and the thing about swinging weapons is that it makes it so you can't possibly be shielding while you do it so as long as your team has archers or throwers, you can just harrass or kill the ladder breakers while melee guys charge up the ladder. It's not rocket science.

This makes me think that you've never used a ladder ever, nor seen one in action.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: theero on September 13, 2011, 09:35:11 am
To carry my own weight in this debate I think I will make my next main build an xBow-man who ALWAYS has ladders with him, regardless of the map. If you don't come and get me, I'll pew pew you until you GTX the server and return here to whine  :twisted:.

 Also, deal with it.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: justme on September 13, 2011, 10:26:18 am
ma jebem vam mater
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Arcaian on September 13, 2011, 10:35:59 am
Try to think about it as if you were an archer. Personally, I play 2h on the Aus server so I may have different experiences to you, but I'm sure it would be the same. As an archer you can play as a couple of types of archers. The first is a hybrid, who go bow and melee weapon, normally 1h. They go on the open battlefield, and can go quite well. Most people have no problem with them. Then there are the high ath, fairly low damage archers. They run around and sprint away from people when they get close. A lot of melee players have a problem with them, but thats not part of the debate. Then there are the archers with high power draw, low athletics - the normal archers from medieval times. They have low ironflesh and low athletics, so how do they defend themselves ? The hide behind things. Or where melee characters have a disadvantage/trouble getting to. It's logical. As a 2h player, you have the high agi spammers (like the ath archers). No-one gets overly annoyed with them. Then you have the normal, medium 18/21 or 21/18 players. No-one gets annoyed at them. Then you have the crazy str players, that are around 30/9 or something crazy like that. Their only defence is their armour, they can't retreat or run away. What you are asking the str archers to do is effectively loose their armour - what would you as a high str archer say if you saw people calling for no more medium or heavy armour ?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on September 13, 2011, 10:49:01 am
i hear gay archer noob whining..

what about letting the shielders take the archers roof?

and they are up there because they can rally there without being fast fucked by cav/infantry.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Arcaian on September 13, 2011, 10:52:46 am
I'm 2h, not archer. Also, yes. One reason they are up there is it's harder for infantry to get them there. Tactical decisions like that don't make them OP - it's like you hiding behind a shielder - does that make you OP ?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Arcaian on September 13, 2011, 11:11:24 am
"This masterwork steel-bolt will send you straight to hell Tincan!" - nice sig, looks like you're the gay archer noob whining .
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Leshma on September 13, 2011, 11:27:06 am
Buff c-rpg archers please!

Not their class, not their stats, not their bows, buff their brains!
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 13, 2011, 11:29:22 am
Archers, get off the roof already.

Why are you up there? It's not fair, no one can reach you to hit you unless they have a ranged weapon or a ladder. Why should everyone have to carry a ranged weapon or a ladder? Those take up a lot of slots and how dare you force the other team to have to bring some ladders just because you did. You're stalling the round and making all of us get less EXP and gold per hour, you aren't just hurting us, you're hurting yourselves too.

Archers, get off the roof already.


Are you just saying people should not complain about players who have godmode against 66% of all enemies?


The only way you should be playing the game is to equip a two hander or pole arm and a lot of armor or MAYBE a one hander and shield combo and then run into melee in a honourable and straight forward manner. I'm getting tired of all this tactics shit, and THINKING and using all this dumb shit the game provides you with like ranged weapons and ladders.

Archers, get off the roof already.

I wouldn't go so far and call the choice of your position "tactics" already. And the simple fact that certain behaviour is possible and grants you with some advantage doesn't automatically mean it's tactics and good or acceptable. That's why ladderpulting is forbidden.

I am for removing the ladders and your teammates using tactics. Not the roof is supposed to protect you from melee attacks, your teammates are. Moar teamplay ftw, less pussy behaviour.

And further more, once you have your two hander equiped and are playing like A MAN, don't try and be all clever and hide and shit, and try and ambush people and try to manuever around, trying to isolate people and overwhelm them and all this shit. Who do you think you are, fucking JOHN RAMBO or something? Are you and your clan mates like the guys in Band of Brothers or something trying to out fight the SS or some shit? KNOCK THAT SHIT OFF, YOU'RE STALLING THE ROUND AND ROBBING ME OF MY EXP AND GOLD.

Archers, get off the roof already.

Because Ninjaing works soooooooo well, the maps have no borders, no enemies - especially cavalry and horse archers - are going around the flank and.... oh wait!  :rolleyes:

Also, when you have your Bec or your Flamberge or whatever, don't block attacks like a my old friend. Can people stop equiping shields and trying to weapon block all the time? It's not fair. People can't hit you if you're blocking and dodging around and all this shit when you fight, it makes their attacks do NO DAMAGE, ZERO. Knock that shit off you're stalling the round and making all of us get less EXP and gold per hour, you aren't just hurting us, you're hurting yourselves too.

Archers, get off the roof already.

I think you are overshooting here...

This game is about rounds ending promptly and me getting my EXP and my GOLD, it is not some bullshit medieval combat simulator for you and your my old friend reinactor buddies to have pretend battles with and try and out wit and out play eachother while you fuck over all the good honest players like myself who don't want to have to plan against your "strategy" and "cunning". We came here to equip whatever the fuck gear WE PLANNED ON (a two hander, duh) and have it kill people we swing it at. OH AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON HOW GAY CAV ARE.

Archers, well, I think you get my point by now. STOP BEING my old friendS.

Ugh, writing this post just screwed me out of so much EXP and GOLD.

The first part is right. Rounds should end as quickly as possible, not for the sake of XP and Gold (although it's quite an important argument for many people, I suppose), but simply for the fact of increasing the time you actually PLAY, instead of watching in spectator mode. Shorter rounds = more playing for everyone.

And yes, this is NO medieval simulator. In medieval battles you tried to gain an unfair advantage over your enemy, because noone likes fair chances if it's about his own life. But this here is a game. Games a) have rules, and b) are supposed to make fun. Combining a) and b) leads to the conlusion that games needs FAIR rules (which is mostly accomplished by the same rules for everyone).

How about this strategy and cunning: you shoot from a hill, your pikemen and shield bearers cover you. Tadaaaaa! You just made a fool of yourself, thinking that other players are not willing to use tactics, but you are not seeing that in fact it's YOU!

____________________________________________________

I still think camping roofs, especially with breaking the ladders afterwards, should be forbidden.

- In Native balance works without ladders
- Godmode against 66% of all players is inacceptable, especially if you are still able to attack them in return
- It is no tactic, as it is making you completely independant from your teammates, but tactics involve the effective COMBINATION of all classes

IMHO archers are supposed to be shooting from an elevated position on the ground, being protected by teammates. They have high offensive capabilities (being able to attack anyone on sight over range), this has to be paid with low defensive skills. Camping on a roof removes this BALANCING aspect.

So just shut up. Stay on ground and stop whining about the roof whining. It's justified.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Gorath on September 13, 2011, 11:40:17 am
take ladders out of the game battle

^
yeah, that.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bryggan on September 13, 2011, 11:51:49 am
I'm inf with a few jarids and personally I generally have no problem with roof campers, accepting it as a valid tactic. The only thing is that it only helps for awhile.  While it is great having arrows dropped into the guy you're fighting and makes for some easy kills, at some point the advantage turns into a disadvantage.  I've seen a lot of games when, thanks to roof top archers, we take the lead at about 12-8.  But with fewer targets the rooftop archers stop hitting people, plus all the survivors are aware of the killing zones, so the numerical advantage is lost and suddenly the infantry on the ground are taken out by enemy infantry who actually have archer support, or some tin can cav popping out of alleys and such.  Then suddenly the four archers and 2 infantry on the roof are suddenly alone.

They also must realize one thing- there are no reinforcements coming!!! Buying time won't help, it just irritates all the dead while they wait for you to try get that 5% chance of killing some guy on the ground who gets bored of standing behind cover
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Odion on September 13, 2011, 12:18:32 pm
ok you can use your "strategy and cunning" to camp the roof.

and i will use my "strategy and cunning" to not engange you in battle, because it wont be cunning to climb the ladder as a 2hander when there are 5 archers up on the roof taking aim at you. its also not cunning to carry a ladder to place on the roof as they will destroy it as soon as they see it.

i guess the only cunning thing left to do as a 2hander is to camp behind a wall and not get hit, while you camp the roof.

enjoy your draws.

this is why i no longer play battle.

Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: highglandeur on September 13, 2011, 12:47:06 pm
I agree, people are always going to be little bitches who blame anything that affects them badly on some outside source other than themselves and that psychology has pretty much proven this to be the NATURAL behaviour of human kind but you know what? What comes natural is not always correct or the best way to do things, or some thing that we have to forever surrender to. If everyone ever born thought that way, we would have no science, art, philosophy, peace, anything, because our natural tendancy is to be lazy, always favour immediate satisfaction over the bigger picture, and fear and distrust anything we aren't familiar with...
...Now, that said, a realist has to acknowledge that this is going to be the natural behaviour of the community and expect people to act this way sometimes and not get to angry about it. But it should not be condoned, promoted, applauded or encouraged by Admins. It should at least be ignored, and at best, discouraged.

Just for that part I promise I'll stop complaining about archers on the chat for a while...
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on September 13, 2011, 01:29:26 pm
Sorry for spelling mistakes i am typing this via my mobile phone.

Being the last archer (or group) alive on a unreachable roof when you have noone on the ground is delaying and is against the rules.

That is why people rage and say gtf off that roof.

You will be warned by an admin to get down and kicked if you do not comply.

Or you will be kick polled. 

You may consider this cunning or whatever but its still delaying and against the rules thus making it pointless to moan about it or moan about other people expressing their discontent with this behaviour.


Now my opinion on the reason why people whine about roofs before the rule breaking conditions have been met is probably because in frequent situations roof camping does ultimately leed to the roof campers being the last ones alive and delaying. Now from a roofcampers point of view this might be fun but i dount the rest of the people thst want to play would be content wit this thus the rage.

A solution that i have already stated before could be tweaking the maps that almost all roofs have preset indestructible ladders efectively removing the need for ladders from battle. This woul require alot of work tho.

Another solutoon would be making the ladders in battle mode indestructable.
Less work, only a matter of code but the problem here is that people would misuse the ladders to block paths or grief.

Imo solution 1 is better if only someone would do the tedious task of changing maps.(i myself do mot have this knowledge nor do i have the time)
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 13, 2011, 03:15:16 pm
It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma camp a roof and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether.

Like I pointed out earlier, a ranged guy on the ground can kill the enemy JUST AS WELL as a ranged guy on a roof. Being on the roof doesn't add bonuses to their weapons. It just makes them invulnerable to anything but other ranged, and that's a load of crap.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Laufknoten on September 13, 2011, 03:33:43 pm
It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma camp a roof and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether.

Like I pointed out earlier, a ranged guy on the ground can kill the enemy JUST AS WELL as a ranged guy on a roof. Being on the roof doesn't add bonuses to their weapons. It just makes them invulnerable to anything but other ranged, and that's a load of crap.
This.

There are many archers who do much better on the ground than the average roofcamper does (actually the best archers rarely or never roofcamp). I would say 1 warning by the admin and then kick if they don't leave the roof. It can't be that the admin shouts "get down off the roof" 30 times and those my old friends shoot till they have no ammo left and then jump down.

Or better just remove ladders from battle...
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2011, 03:55:42 pm
This.

There are many archers who do much better on the ground than the average roofcamper does (actually the best archers rarely or never roofcamp). I would say 1 warning by the admin and then kick if they don't leave the roof. It can't be that the admin shouts "get down off the roof" 30 times and those my old friends shoot till they have no ammo left and then jump down.

Or better just remove ladders from battle...

As an admin, roofcampers get 1 warning. If they shoot even one arrow/bolt/anything else after the warning, they are kicked. And yet this isn't enough, they usually do it again next round.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Laufknoten on September 13, 2011, 05:41:31 pm
As an admin, roofcampers get 1 warning. If they shoot even one arrow/bolt/anything else after the warning, they are kicked. And yet this isn't enough, they usually do it again next round.
I've never saw any admin kicking roofcampers right after the warning when they continued with the bundle of sticksry. They usually shout "get down" a dozen times and maybe one or two roofcampers get kicked at the end of the round. Next round all campers are up on the roofs again... I think, if they're not able to learn it that way, remove their ability to get on roofs (ladders) and the problem is solved.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 13, 2011, 06:50:36 pm
Other than archers breaking ladders and getting in unreachable spots what's the problem?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 13, 2011, 08:09:22 pm
Other than archers breaking ladders and getting in unreachable spots what's the problem?

Other than the fact of using broken game mechanics to get an advantage and negate 1/2 or more of the other teams players? Other than the fact that ranged on a roof has no counter except other ranged (probably on another roof)? Not much, really.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on September 13, 2011, 08:47:06 pm
lol i dont whine and im no noob. im skilled crossbowman and love archers for breakfast!
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 13, 2011, 09:33:06 pm
Other than the fact of using broken game mechanics to get an advantage and negate 1/2 or more of the other teams players? Other than the fact that ranged on a roof has no counter except other ranged (probably on another roof)? Not much, really.
I wonder if those lords back in medieval times complained a lot. 'please get down archers! broken game mechanics FYI!'
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2011, 10:29:01 pm
I wonder if those lords back in medieval times complained a lot. 'please get down archers! broken game mechanics FYI!'

And the point of your post is ? You know, the australian waters include 45 species of whales, HA !
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Dezilagel on September 13, 2011, 10:31:02 pm
And the point of your post is ? You know, the australian waters include 45 species of whales, HA !

I c whut u did ther.

Also, yes roofcamping is bs - "safespots" should not exist, especially if you can still "fight" effectively from them
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 13, 2011, 10:31:45 pm
I wonder if those lords back in medieval times complained a lot. 'please get down archers! broken game mechanics FYI!'

Archers probably didn't go stomping around on thatched roofs back in medieval times.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 13, 2011, 10:42:02 pm
I wonder if those lords back in medieval times complained a lot. 'please get down archers! broken game mechanics FYI!'

I wonder why both sides of a fight absolutely detested sieges in medieval times. I wonder why the IRL solution to archers camping a roof isn't available, namely, setting it on fire and listening to the bastards scream. Could it be because it's a game?

Also, yes roofcamping is bs - "safespots" should not exist, especially if you can still "fight" effectively from them

Exactly, Dezilagel.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Slamz on September 13, 2011, 10:43:29 pm
The real answer is that every map builder should just include roof access to every building with integrated ladders (either the type that are on the ground and can be clicked up or else just hard ladders on the side of the building).

This solves the problem completely.  Archers can still get on roofs, which gets them away from cavalry and at least gives them a decent chance to stay out of the melee battle, but in the end, the melees have an obvious route to go up and get them.


(And this is all ignoring the fact that another real solution is already in place: the round timer, and the "master of the field" final victory condition.  Maybe this timer needs to be reduced if everyone is really this impatient.)
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 13, 2011, 11:53:05 pm
Its 100% true for Master of the Field considering that its sometimes around the roff, you still get shot while lowering the flag.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 14, 2011, 12:03:20 am
Archers probably didn't go stomping around on thatched roofs back in medieval times.
Maybe not but I have little doubt they used height to their advantage when available. Be it a roof of a small house, a hill etc. Also if anyone has seen the latest robin hood film there is a battle where archers get on the roofs. Not saying the film is a historical documentary but still.

I wonder why both sides of a fight absolutely detested sieges in medieval times. I wonder why the IRL solution to archers camping a roof isn't available, namely, setting it on fire and listening to the bastards scream. Could it be because it's a game?
Another real life solution is going after them with shields and ranged which we have in game. If archers are forced on the ground and are not given some sort of alternative for self preservation like ground stakes or whatever they will adapt their tactics and builds to the new environment. I wonder if the complaints will end? My bet is no.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Thucydides on September 14, 2011, 12:06:55 am
Smoke bombs and torches should be able to burn down houses
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bryggan on September 14, 2011, 12:25:14 am
Couldn't they just make roofs the opposite of invisible walls?  Make them so they can be seen but you'll fall right through if you try step on one.  Sorta like what could happen if you stepped on a real medieval hut's roof.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 14, 2011, 12:31:55 am
The real answer is that every map builder should just include roof access to every building with integrated ladders (either the type that are on the ground and can be clicked up or else just hard ladders on the side of the building). enclosed buildings with doors.

This solves the problem completely.  Archers can still get on roofs Melee units can go into buildings, which gets them away from cavalry and at least gives them a decent chance to stay out of the melee ranged battle, but in the end, the melees ranged have an obvious route to go up inside and get them.

Fixed it for you. Now see why this is dumb?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Leshma on September 14, 2011, 12:39:23 am
Just make the roof unreachable already...

It's not that hard, no ladders in battle that's all...
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Gorath on September 14, 2011, 08:51:56 am
I wonder why the IRL solution to archers camping a roof isn't available, namely, setting it on fire and listening to the bastards scream.

This is why firebombs or something needs to work if we're not going to do the obvious LOGICAL thing to do and remove fucking ladders from non-siege/strat servers.  Camp a roof or anywhere else, get burned alive by anti camper devices and die en-masse.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Arcaian on September 14, 2011, 11:01:37 am
It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma camp a roof and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether.

Like I pointed out earlier, a ranged guy on the ground can kill the enemy JUST AS WELL as a ranged guy on a roof. Being on the roof doesn't add bonuses to their weapons. It just makes them invulnerable to anything but other ranged, and that's a load of crap.

Thats just like saying you should remove shields because they make it so only ranged can kill them, making half the enemy team useless. I disagree with it IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO THE ROOF - if the ladder is destroyed. Otherwise it's fine. And also, the speed bonus increases if you're higher than them.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 14, 2011, 11:26:44 am
Thats just like saying you should remove shields because they make it so only ranged can kill them, making half the enemy team useless. I disagree with it IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO THE ROOF - if the ladder is destroyed. Otherwise it's fine. And also, the speed bonus increases if you're higher than them.

You are wrong there, as the big difference is, that an archer on a roof is a) invulnerable to half or even more of the enemy team, but b) can also threaten everyone else on the battlefield.

A shielder keeping his shield up or a two hander hiding behind a wall is immune to half the enemy team, too. But while doing so he isn't a threat for them. There you have the little difference.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 14, 2011, 11:29:23 am
I think if the cRPG forums were not allowed to have a dozen threads open at all times that complain about range or cav, the majority of posters would suddenly be unsure what to do with themselves, and there would be a lot of akward silences.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 14, 2011, 11:52:06 am
I think if the cRPG forums were not allowed to have a dozen threads open at all times that complain about range or cav, the majority of posters would suddenly be unsure what to do with themselves, and there would be a lot of akward silences.

Well, it's the only way to get things fixed.

I don't play much any more, so I don't know what's up to cav, but concerning rooftop archers: allowing a certain class to basically be a (bigger or minor) threat to everyone while being immune against 1/2 to 2/3 of the enemy team doesn't seem to be something acceptable to me.

There will always be complainers complaining about other people's complaints, never mind if justified or not. It's the famous "stop whining" behaviour, because you can call everything whining. I poisoned your dog, fucked your sister and burned down your house, and now you run to the police? C'mon! Stop whining!
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2011, 12:05:13 pm
I poisoned your dog, fucked your sister and burned down your house, and now you run to the police? C'mon! Stop whining!

Quote for truth.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Jacko on September 14, 2011, 12:15:48 pm
Ranged will bunch up and create "firing platforms", some will go with the infantry and a few will go solo, this is what they do. "Ranged" is a very stationary class, because firing requires it. Removing ladders will certainly remove camping from most houses, but it will not Remove Camping in general for ranged classes. I do however agree that they need to get the fuck down if they are the only ones left and there is no ladder to them.

Ranged are support, they do not win matches, infantry does (or cav on flat maps). People who believe otherwise are just frustrated. One could simply argue that cavalry needs to get their horses removed because only 1/2 or 1/3 of the team can [actively] engage them. Or shields being OP because only 1/2 - 2/3 can affect them, and so on, and so on..

Removing ladders will prevent rooftop camping, but it will also remove the ability for Everyone to take different routes (where possible).

Imo, it will simply make for lesser gameplay.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 14, 2011, 01:40:05 pm
I do however agree that they need to get the fuck down if they are the only ones left and there is no ladder to them.

So an infantryman who decides "It's easier to first kill the squishy archers, removing the enemy team's support, and then engage those tough ironclad infantrymen who stand there without support" has bad luck, because the map grants the enemy team a safe position for their archers? Why should the archers get such a good benefit and other classes should not? And what about the very important aspect of cavalry hunting archers? It is completely removed by ladders!

Ranged are support, they do not win matches, infantry does (or cav on flat maps). People who believe otherwise are just frustrated. One could simply argue that cavalry needs to get their horses removed because only 1/2 or 1/3 of the team can [actively] engage them. Or shields being OP because only 1/2 - 2/3 can affect them, and so on, and so on..

1st: ever fought against a few archers who survived until the end of the round? Even as shield infantry you are doomed, as they probably run faster than, you, all they have to do is to sorround you and you are dead. So I say 3 good archers win against 3 good shieldmen.

2nd: I repeat: usually if you can't harm an enemy he also can't harm you. The only exception of this are horse my old friendchers, that's why I call them horse my old friendchers. It's the pussy way of fighting. Thank god they are not really effective. But an archer on a roof can easily block passages and alleys where a two hander or cavalry would charge through, and doesn't need to be afraid of them by doing so. It's just "Haha I can shoot you and there is nothing you can do to stop me from, except of hiding and thus removing yourself from the battle. Haha."


Removing ladders will prevent rooftop camping, but it will also remove the ability for Everyone to take different routes (where possible).

Imo, it will simply make for lesser gameplay.

Then place barriers on the rooftops and "good" sniping position, so the archers stay on ground and have to fear more than only enemy archers (I know, a horrible thought, ist it?), while all the other, brave classes can use different ways.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 14, 2011, 01:46:29 pm
Another real life solution is going after them with shields and ranged which we have in game. If archers are forced on the ground and are not given some sort of alternative for self preservation like ground stakes or whatever they will adapt their tactics and builds to the new environment. I wonder if the complaints will end? My bet is no.

Archers can fight on the ground. They can still kill with out any problems, and be SAFE if they pay attention. What chance do 5 infantry have against 5 archers when the infantry are on a ladder, and the archers are on a roof where they can't be reached? Even if 3/5 of them have shields, the ranged can just shoot around it, and the 2 without (because that's their build, 2 hander/polearmer, etc) are completely helpless to reach the roof-top archers.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Turkhammer on September 14, 2011, 04:19:07 pm
ok you can use your "strategy and cunning" to camp the roof.

and i will use my "strategy and cunning" to not engange you in battle, because it wont be cunning to climb the ladder as a 2hander when there are 5 archers up on the roof taking aim at you. its also not cunning to carry a ladder to place on the roof as they will destroy it as soon as they see it.

i guess the only cunning thing left to do as a 2hander is to camp behind a wall and not get hit, while you camp the roof.

enjoy your draws.

this is why i no longer play battle.


Then the remaining 5 archers can come down and slaughter you.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Turkhammer on September 14, 2011, 04:34:15 pm
Archers can fight on the ground. They can still kill with out any problems, and be SAFE if they pay attention. What chance do 5 infantry have against 5 archers when the infantry are on a ladder, and the archers are on a roof where they can't be reached? Even if 3/5 of them have shields, the ranged can just shoot around it, and the 2 without (because that's their build, 2 hander/polearmer, etc) are completely helpless to reach the roof-top archers.

If I'm an archer, I would play to my natural advantages, one of which is getting up high.  If you want me down on the ground convince the devs to make arrows that disable infantry if they hit an arm or a leg, or any vital organ.  As it is, arrows now take away hp but have no effect on the target's speed or agility.  Also while you're at it, have the devs work on making a plate wearing 2h get so exhausted after swinging his 4 foot sword non-stop for 5 minutes, that he can't even lift it when he gets to me.  Then we can address complaints about archers getting on roofs.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 14, 2011, 04:42:56 pm
If I'm an archer, I would play to my natural advantages, one of which is getting up high.  If you want me down on the ground convince the devs to make arrows that disable infantry if they hit an arm or a leg, or any vital organ.  As it is, arrows now take away hp but have no effect on the target's speed or agility.  Also while you're at it, have the devs work on making a plate wearing 2h get so exhausted after swinging his 4 foot sword non-stop for 5 minutes, that he can't even lift it when he gets to me.  Then we can address complaints about archers getting on roofs.

Wait, do you want the same thing applied to you? If we remove roof camping, but you can get wounded in the arm, unable to draw your bow, or your leg, unable to run away, you'd be fine with that? Or how about an archer collapses with exhaustion after repeatedly drawing (and holding) a moderate to high pull bow for 5 minutes, while trying to stay mobile at the same time? Do these sound like things you want to see?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Turkhammer on September 14, 2011, 04:52:17 pm
I rarely play archer.  But if I did I would say that those effects would of course apply to archers as well.   I would love to see wounding effects and fatigue for all classes.  I don't think it will happen with this engine however.  CMP has said that implementation of fatigue would cause too much lag on the servers.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 14, 2011, 04:56:33 pm
Look, the whole point I'm trying to make is that being forced to fight on the ground with the rest of the team does NOT in any way, shape, or form negate the ranged play-style. It is either more or less dangerous depending on the team you have, the team they have, and what you do about it. That's just like every other player in the game, isn't it?

Howevery, ranged being on the roof DOES negate every other players build/play-style. Does this make sense, do you get my point?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Nova77 on September 14, 2011, 05:18:31 pm
2h coward rage. Nobody cares.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Bobthehero on September 14, 2011, 06:30:08 pm
Shielders too, with higher ground it a lot easier to ignore a shielder shield due to the lessened force field and head shot him.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2011, 06:43:25 pm
Shielders too, with higher ground it a lot easier to ignore a shielder shield due to the lessened force field and head shot him.

Anyway, shielders are just 2h with 30 degrees of feeble protection in front of them.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 14, 2011, 06:45:38 pm
ever fought against a few archers who survived until the end of the round? Even as shield infantry you are doomed, as they probably run faster than, you, all they have to do is to sorround you and you are dead. So I say 3 good archers win against 3 good shieldmen.
I wouldn't call those players 'good' shieldmen if they lose to an equal number of archers.


Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2011, 06:48:57 pm
I wouldn't call those players 'good' shieldmen if they lose to an equal number of archers.

Try it first. The shielders are slower than the archers. So each archer can flee in it's own direction, each shielder follows one archer. Archers can jumpshoot the other shielders in the back while fleeing from their owner shielder. The shielders die.

Alternatively, all shielders can follow one archer, and get shot in the back by the other archers that have plenty of time to aim.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Christo on September 14, 2011, 06:51:58 pm
2h coward rage. Nobody cares.

lol, who is the coward, the one who is hiding his arse at an unreachable roof, hiding when he's exposed to fire, or the others who want to play a good game?

Go to hell, and take your cheap argument with you.  8-)

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Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: justjr on September 14, 2011, 07:01:25 pm
The problem is the fckn delay, as long as u don't delay the round run away as much as u want.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 14, 2011, 07:17:50 pm
Try it first. The shielders are slower than the archers. So each archer can flee in it's own direction, each shielder follows one archer. Archers can jumpshoot the other shielders in the back while fleeing from their owner shielder. The shielders die.

Alternatively, all shielders can follow one archer, and get shot in the back by the other archers that have plenty of time to aim.
I've played shielder in the past. Unless they have suddenly become crap I can't see the problem. You can run forward quicker than players can backpedal and if an archer chooses to run then don't follow him if he's luring you into a trap (SMART!). Out maneuver them. Yet if archers are that coordinated then maybe they deserve to win. I know many people hate it when archers use teamwork. So now we are at archers>than all now even shielders. Amazing. Next gen I'm going shield again. Maybe noobs can watch and learn.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Jacko on September 14, 2011, 08:15:22 pm
Not gonna make a quote pyramid but here's the gist of it:

1st: ever fought against a few archers who survived until the end of the round?[...]

I've been on both sides, and usually, the range side get killed quickly enough. If they work together it's pretty even. The more skilled will win, regardless of class.

2nd: I repeat: usually if you can't harm an enemy he also can't harm you. [...]

The whole point of ranged combat is to effect the other player before he can affect you, and move away before he reaches you. This is fundamentally what ranged classes do. Be it on a roof, behind a barrel, tree or whatever cover they can find.   

Sure, remove ladders, add barriers (which is a fucking pain in the ass I can tell you, at least a weeks work, and all village maps aint even done yet), but it wont change the fact that ranged is a stationary class, made for "camping". While you are enabling one class to effectively engage the other (melee versus ranged), your are disabling the other one from effectively doing the same (ranged versus melee in this case), this is not really a solution, just shifting the "problem" (I'm still not convinced there is a problem) somewhere else.
Hah, I foresee a lot more friendly fire from archers trying to help out in the melee line if the ladders are removed.

Do you remember the time before ladders, with the constant hill camps? I'll take roof camping over hill camping any day. You at least have cover and angles in a village.

It's a dilemma, everyone wants to play their class to the fullest, but the rock paper shotgun aspect of the game makes it more frustrating for some then others. It all depends on the situation you end up in.
I don't see this changing, at all.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Rumblood on September 14, 2011, 10:42:44 pm
It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma hide behind a shield while riding my horse and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kophka on September 14, 2011, 11:02:07 pm
"Quote from: Kophka on Yesterday at 12:15:16

    It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma hide behind a shield while riding my horse and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether."

Agreed.

I like how you went off topic and took your not-so-subtle dig at cavalry.

The point you missed when making that completely facetious statement is that the horses (and riders holding their shield up) have to come at you to hurt you.

They aren't killing you while being completely out of reach of ANY melee weapon.

They aren't killing you while you are stuck halfway up a ladder trying to reach the horse to hurt it.

Unless of course it's an archer on that horse. But that's an argument for another topic, don't you think?
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2011, 11:10:35 pm
I've played shielder in the past. Unless they have suddenly become crap I can't see the problem.


Maybe back when they effectively protected and weren't so penalizing for movement. They indeed have become crap.

You can run forward quicker than players can backpedal

No fleeing player is stupid enough to do it backpedalling. You never heard of jumpshooting, or seen it ?

and if an archer chooses to run then don't follow him if he's luring you into a trap (SMART!).

So the shields have to wait for the archers to die of old age ?

Out maneuver them.

Shielders are slow and have less acceleration than archers.


Yet if archers are that coordinated then maybe they deserve to win.

Shielders can be as coordinated as they want, in this case, they die. You could think they deserve to win if they are more coordinated than archers, but it doesn't matter.

I know many people hate it when archers use teamwork. So now we are at archers>than all now even shielders.

You are finally getting to the point.

Amazing. Next gen I'm going shield again. Maybe noobs I can watch noobs and learn.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Braeden on September 14, 2011, 11:28:42 pm
I think ladders should take fewer slots to encourage their use.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Lichen on September 14, 2011, 11:31:32 pm
@Kafein: I'm not going to quote everything. So shielders are penalized for movement and are now "crap".  I don't believe that at all because on my current character I have just 1 shield skill and a very cheap shield that gets wrecked in melee usually in 2 hits or less and even using that I can block arrows just fine.  'Noobs' is the only conclusion I can come to for those shielders that still get owned by archers.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Rumblood on September 15, 2011, 12:18:02 am
I like how you went off topic and took your not-so-subtle dig at cavalry.

The point you missed when making that completely facetious statement is that the horses (and riders holding their shield up) have to come at you to hurt you.

They aren't killing you while being completely out of reach of ANY melee weapon.

They aren't killing you while you are stuck halfway up a ladder trying to reach the horse to hurt it.

Unless of course it's an archer on that horse. But that's an argument for another topic, don't you think?

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Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 15, 2011, 01:23:39 am
The whole point of ranged combat is to effect the other player before he can affect you, and move away before he reaches you. This is fundamentally what ranged classes do. Be it on a roof, behind a barrel, tree or whatever cover they can find.

I think this is the central statement in your post. And basically you are right here.

But what you brought up as an argument for your position is actually my argument for mine:

While you are enabling one class to effectively engage the other (melee versus ranged), your are disabling the other one from effectively doing the same (ranged versus melee in this case), this is not really a solution, just shifting the "problem" (I'm still not convinced there is a problem) somewhere else.

In least cases balancing is about clear, absolute facts. Usually it's more about subjective feelings and preferences.

In my opinion Warband Native has a very good balance. So it could serve as basic point of orientation.

In Native there are no ladders, and yet the archers do fine. So in my opinion, the ladders shifted already the balance to their favour, and so I think removing ladders would more or less "fix" this issue.

Let me say it this way:

Chances of infantry and cavalry getting up on a rooftop full of archers over a (breakable!) ladder without dying are way worse than chances of archers on the ground trying to successfully keep distance to melee fighters using his higher mobility by higher agility values and less encumbrance (and, not to forget, teammates and cover/obstacles on the ground).

Or, even easier:

Archers on rooftop vs. infantry on ground is no fair battle

Archers on rooftop vs. cavalry on ground is no fair battle

Archers on rooftop vs. archers on ground is fair battle


The rock-paper-cissors-system actually DOES require you to have two unfair battles, BUT one of it should be to your disadvantage, and not both favouring you heavily.


Bottom line: introducing ladders moved balance heavily to the favour of the archers. This needs to be fixed. I am already content with server rules forbidding to shoot from a roof without access at ANY TIME of the battle.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Dom.Miguel on September 16, 2011, 06:49:48 pm
No
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Joker86 on September 17, 2011, 03:30:42 am
Are you referring to my post? Could you please elaborate a bite more why "no", and to what?  :? :?:
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: dreadnok on September 17, 2011, 03:45:27 am
@Kafein: I'm not going to quote everything. So shielders are penalized for movement and are now "crap".  I don't believe that at all because on my current character I have just 1 shield skill and a very cheap shield that gets wrecked in melee usually in 2 hits or less and even using that I can block arrows just fine.  'Noobs' is the only conclusion I can come to for those shielders that still get owned by archers.

some arrows still go thru shields tho. your really not a noob when a throwing aor archer somehow uses the jfk bullet to hit you.
Title: Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 17, 2011, 03:46:30 am
some arrows Bolts still go thru shields tho. your really not a noob when a throwing aor archer somehow uses the jfk bullet to hit you.