cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Aleskander on August 15, 2011, 03:13:43 am
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Crossbows are much stronger than bows in CRPG, as evidence by the fact that they do much more damage, have a higher missile speed, aren't affected by armor, are more accurate, and a bunch of other bullshit. And frankly, they should be. It's been stated many times that any idiot can pick up a crossbow and shoot accurately. How about making WPF for crossbows increase the time it takes for the accuracy of the crossbow to increase. Moving and readjusting your aim would harm this, but not completely reset it. Have about 140 WPF be at the time it takes now, and 0 WPF be at 0%. I just want to make sure that crossbowers can't be proficient at both crossbowery and melee at the same time. To make sure that crossbowers aren't hampered by having to wait to aim AND missile speed, increase the missile speed of crossbows by 50% or so.
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:| I think there are already 4 xbow threads active at the moment...
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There are, but I'm bored
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aren't affected by armor
That part, right there, is wrong.
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To make sure that crossbowers aren't hampered by having to wait to aim AND missile speed, increase the missile speed of crossbows by 50% or so.
I am just playing one gen of xbow, and let me say: NO, a further increase in missile speed would mean instant impact, hyperspeed, wormholes, you name it... the bolts are insanely fast already compared to my usual bodkins (which would hit the target faster if I delivered them by running there and stuck them manually in the butt of the chosen one...)
Apart from missile speed, I basically agree.
But as stated in several other threads by people with and without insight in the inner workings of c-rpg: xbows will not be balanced anytime soon, unless the playing style preferences of the dev team eventually change...
P.S.: until now my sentiments towards xbows were supported only by a few quick experiments. Now I can say it with confidence: they ARE not balanced. With an Arbalest (only heirloomed once, like the steel bolts), level 24 right now and about 120 WPF in crossbows I have similar results compared to my normal build at level 29/30 with masterwork longbow and bodkins. The xbow is far more accurate, plus I have countless points for IF, ath, even PS and shield, that normally need to be converted to bring PD up to 6 or 7 and archery skill to a feasable 160+ points... so for me playing a gen of xbow feels like holiday in FPS land... LOL
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That part, right there, is wrong.
Aren't affacted as much, yeah, that was innacurate.
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It's been stated many times that any idiot can pick up a crossbow and shoot accurately.
Point me to any evidence that medieval crossbow was «Accurate».
Can't?
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Point me to any evidence that medieval crossbow was «Accurate».
Can't?
I think he's talking about crossbows in Mount & Blade Warband, specifically this mod C-rpg.
He is not talking about crossbows in real life.. I have no idea how you got that out of what he said. xD
Memento_Mori reading = fail
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I think he's talking about crossbows in Mount & Blade Warband, specifically this mod C-rpg.
He is not talking about crossbows in real life.. I have no idea how you got that out of what he said. xD
Perhaps you should read what he posted?
And frankly, they should be. It's been stated many times that any idiot can pick up a crossbow and shoot accurately.
So yeah, he's talking about Xbows in real life. To which I agree with Memento_Mori. Show me this weapon where anyone picking it up is a marksman. I can take a modern pistol and it won't be as accurate as Xbows are being portrayed in game.
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As a shielder i have less difficulty with xbow than archer, i mean once the guy shoot his bolt it takes age to reload and i have time to reach him or to hide.
Archers can shot multiple times and if they are two, it's the end for you.
Ppl forget reloading time and fighting style when they compare xbow to bow.
Xbow are a problem when you are in melee, because lot of ppl still use xbwo as a sidearm.
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Arrows cannot penetrate shield. Bolts can.
And I really like this Materpiece suggestion:
Archers can shot multiple times and if they are two, it's the end for you.
Ok. So in other words, your shielder will pwn any other 2 enemy characters, but two damned archers always kill you.
Let's talk about people with same level of skill, ok?
Your shielder always victorous against
2 lancers
2 shielders
2 xbowman
2 twohanders
2 polearmers
archer and xbowman etc...
You must be a Legend. Or Hero. Stop, we have one Hero already...
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I think Xbows and Bows are pretty much balanced right now tbh. A skilled Longbow user will nearly always beat a skilled arbalast user in a straight fight with no cover due to the fact that the Arbalast user has to stand still to reload which takes an age.
Furthermore it can be argued that crossbow users need the ability to get some melee proficiency due to the fact that they are much more likely to get caught up in a melee. The Arbalast has one chance to kill a closing melee opponent. If that fails then unless you have team mates to rescue you, you have to stand and fight as running away is pointless - you'll never gain enough distance on your opponent to have enough time to reload.
Wpf does affect crossbow reload times and the chance to break so xbow users do have to use it. For the record once you've put 100 points into crossbow proficiency you're limited to just 133 points in a 2nd proficiency at level 30 with 6WM. It doesn't exactly make you the melee killing machine that some people think xbow users are. Using an Arbalast without wpf just loses you cash and if you use an arbalast you only have 1 slot left for melee weapons. Most people using an xbow as a sidearm are using the 1 slot crossbow which only has 54 pierce damage compared to 81 making it significantly less powerful. For instance, i'm pretty sure the crossbow doesn't fire through shields
Having said all that I do think a couple of changes could be made to make things a little more realistic.
1) At least 50 wpf should be required to use a 2 slot xbow. This would stop randomers picking up Arbalasts on the Battlefield (or using them in Strat).
2) Make all weapons useable with 2 hands into 2 slot weapons. I'm referring to the Mace, Langes Messer, Staff, Quarter Staff and Military Fork here and really they just act as loopholes to get round the slot system. This would make sure that Arbalast and Longbow users do actually suffer some sort of melee penalty - either having to use a 1H weapon with no shield or a shield with a very weak 1H weapon.
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get rid of reticule for all ranged attacks, that would help
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get rid of reticule for all ranged attacks, that would help
Then you'd have nothing but shot gunning crossbowers and throwers.
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Then you'd have nothing but shot gunning crossbowers and throwers.
thats pretty much already the case. if you take away reticule they could put archery speed back up to normal and maybe even make them draw faster
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Wpf does affect crossbow reload times and the chance to break so xbow users do have to use it. For the record once you've put 100 points into crossbow proficiency you're limited to just 133 points in a 2nd proficiency at level 30 with 6WM. It doesn't exactly make you the melee killing machine that some people think xbow users are. Using an Arbalast without wpf just loses you cash and if you use an arbalast you only have 1 slot left for melee weapons. Most people using an xbow as a sidearm are using the 1 slot crossbow which only has 54 pierce damage compared to 81 making it significantly less powerful. For instance, i'm pretty sure the crossbow doesn't fire through shields
Can I ask you, why you make an example with 6WM statistics? With standart 15\24 xbowman build you'll have at least 8WM. Enough for 150 in xbows and 111 in 2H. And 100+ in 2H is enough for battle. Especially with fast weapons like mace or langes messer.
Most people using an xbow as a sidearm are using the 1 slot crossbow which only has 54 pierce damage
I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.
Make all weapons useable with 2 hands into 2 slot weapons. I'm referring to the Mace, Langes Messer, Staff, Quarter Staff and Military Fork here and really they just act as loopholes to get round the slot system. This would make sure that Arbalast and Longbow users do actually suffer some sort of melee penalty - either having to use a 1H weapon with no shield or a shield with a very weak 1H weapon.
I have another awesome suggestion. Let's make all shields 4 slot items, and all 2H and polearms 5 slots weapons. Just for lulz.
For instance, i'm pretty sure the crossbow doesn't fire through shields
I think you just play another game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FKD1WrCwGM
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Ok Cupid, i can be your hero if you want!
We were talking about archer and xbowman, if you meet 2 xbowmen you can reach one before both reload, if you meet 2 archers they can run forever.
Meaning you have a chance against xbowmen not against archers.
It's always the same for xbowmen, they have to reload.
But again, the final goal is strategus, and xbow are less effective than bow in strat.
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Can I ask you, why you make an example with 6WM statistics? With standart 15\24 xbowman build you'll have at least 8WM. Enough for 150 in xbows and 111 in 2H. And 100+ in 2H is enough for battle. Especially with fast weapons like mace or langes messer.
I used 6WM as that's what my current xbow build is it so i know the figures. If people want to go 8WM then fair enough but that means just 15 strength and 5 PS. Not exactly an amazing melee build which doesn't go against my point that crossbow users do have to sacrifice melee capability which is what brings them into balance. As for the mace and langes messer being fast enough for you to cope with only 100 wpf - that's eaxactly why i think them being 1 slot weapons is a loophole in the slot system which should be closed.
I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.
I'm not sure what your point is here? I was just pointing out that there is a significant difference between a 1 slot crossbow and a 2 slot Arbalast. Where do Jarids come into it?
I have another awesome suggestion. Let's make all shields 4 slot items, and all 2H and polearms 5 slots weapons. Just for lulz.
What exactly is your view on crossbow users. You seem to be saying that they are overpowered as people can use them and still have enough wpf to be competitive when using weapons such as the Mace or Langes Messer. However, when i suggest something that would prevent this and bring those weapons into line with all other weapons you rubbish the suggestion.
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I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.
No.
If you take into consideration the damage bonus from just 4 PT (+10% per PT) and a bit of wpf to make use of that PT, you end up with just over 60 pierce damage on the Masterwork Jarid.
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just a thought, and i didn't feel like making a new thread, but what if WPF for crossbows didn't make the reticule smaller. sure increase speed but the fact that the reticule gets smaller is IMO what makes dedicated crossbow better than archery, they still would need to get high crossbow skill other wise it will break each round, but they wont be snipers and if they hit you, you know its without a dime sized reticule and they earned that shot a bit more... Just a suggestion
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I think they should just raise the required strength for crossbows meaning people can't get such high wpm and can't hybrid as much with crossbow builds.
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Point me to any evidence that medieval crossbow was «Accurate».
Can't?
There are references that suggest their accuracy was similar to, and occasionally greater than Bows, due to reduced 'elastic hysteresis'. Unfortunately I cannot quite understand what this means. Hysteresis appears to be the characteristic that something follows a return path that is different from the outgoing path. Perhaps this means that since the bow lacks a stock to hold the bowstring in place, it may divert upon release.
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Elastic hystereris would mean that one gets less energy out of the bow spring than one put in to draw it(loss by heating up etc., bigger effect when drawing fast). For hard metals like steel this effect is very small, so steel bow crossbows don't suffer from it.
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thats pretty much already the case. if you take away reticule they could put archery speed back up to normal and maybe even make them draw faster
I don't think it's fair to say that the majority of xbowers shotgun. It certainly isn't the case with archers. Hitting things from great distance is hard enough with reticules at the moment, It would become virtually impossible without them.
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While this thead was going I respeced to a crossbow/2hander build. I now have twice the WPF in my melee skill(2handed now, compared to 1handed with no shield), am about 1.5 times more accurate with about 30 less WPF, do more damage, and a better damage type, and can now wear medium/heavy armor without getting as big of an accuracy penalty. But, since I can't win standing alone in the middle of an open field(which are all over the place in maps, and everyone always fights there), the builds are balanced right? Wait, scratch that. I could just zig-zag and kill the archer with my superior melee stats, heavier armor, and longer weapon.
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While this thead was going I respeced to a crossbow/2hander build. I now have twice the WPF in my melee skill(2handed now, compared to 1handed with no shield), am about 1.5 times more accurate with about 30 less WPF, do more damage, and a better damage type, and can now wear medium/heavy armor without getting as big of an accuracy penalty. But, since I can't win standing alone in the middle of an open field(which are all over the place in maps, and everyone always fights there), the builds are balanced right? Wait, scratch that. I could just zig-zag and kill the archer with my superior melee stats, heavier armor, and longer weapon.
So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee, and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?
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So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee, and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?
Except in Siege - I can get pretty near the top of the scoreboard in siege with my Arbalast when defending a castle. Especially if my team is decent, another crossbowman dies near me to give me extra bolts and I can find a good sniping spot :mrgreen:
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I think they're pretty decently balanced since xbows can't move to reload and stuff. The horse xbowers are getting better which can be scary, but not as much a threat as HAs. Xbows do the most damage when teams are still sided. Once they're spread out and they can't get to cover to reload they suffer and get picked off by remaining archers.
However, I die more to bolts than I do to arrows, maybe since I do the archery stuff and know some of their tactics and can walk out of an arrows way.... I die to more bolt wounds followed by their shooter's melee attack than I do an archer's melee attack as well since xbowers have better hybrid builds.
The biggest issue to me is arrow speed. I've not had a positive kill ratio since the patch but I also am terrible at this game so that's no huge surprise. I did way better before, though I'm getting more used to it and can only shoot at folks who don't know I'm shooting at them. If that could be returned to what it was, or at least close, I think there'd be more contentment.
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So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee, and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?
What do you mean the situation they are in? Sure some archers like Ashelia(sp?) are incredibly good, but that's only a very few archers, not including me. Bows don't do that much damage anyway. Even with Light Leather on I only took at the most 1/4 of my health away when shot by a bow, while if I was shot by a bolt it would be 1/2 at the least. The crossbow, which is what I'm using now still does more damage than the longbow, isn't really that much faster, and is still more accurate. If I feel like going with a 2-slotted crossbow I can and wield a Langes like you said or use the 50 points I can put into 1-hander as well and use an elite spammitar. And for upkeep, it's been consistently less than what is was with my previous build, which I find strange.
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I just want to say that I believe this tread is a tremendous amount of bullshit concocted by people who have been killed a lot by xbows recently.
You may say" but Visus you play as an xbow on your main", correct. I also just did several other builds before this most current one in order to test out the balance of cRPG and Strat. This being said, Archery is incredibly powerful if you know how to work it. A longbow with 8-9 pd and good arrows does just as much damage as an Arba+bolts when the prof and pd is factored in.
I could constantly kill anyone without a shield who came at me. And when they god close, I had a pick in order to put my 5 ps to good use.
I recently also did a 2h hero build. Longbows were my worst fear. In heavyish armor (rus scale) and a str build, I feared crossbows less than most other things. They could only hit me once for high damage before I could close or run away. Longbows could pin me down, put me scrambling for cover, or just kite me all over the battle. Yes, Arba's hurt...but it was rare to be sniped by one or shotgunned if you know what you are doing.
Cav. My worst fear was Longbows, they honestly wreck either your horse or you in very few shots. Then again, tunnel vision on longbowmen and other archers gained me many kills. This being said, you have to know how to flank.
Xbow. Shields are my worst enemy. As a guy with 60 prof in 1h and 140 in xbow, I can fight but must choose my blows carefully. The slight stun when hitting a shield really messes up my rythem. The clear benefits of xbowing is shotgunning and reloading in cover. Aiming is just as hard as with a bow, if not harder due to the time spent between shots. Your target can move to a whole different distance or orientation, making you guess the range again. This is especially true with rain. It completely screws the class. My xbow is my main weapon, and when it drops exponentially because of some slight wetness it creates problems. I guess the main thing I can say about surviving and prospering in xbow is having skill at it.
Guess the reoccurring theme here. You need to have skill, or practice with the weapon in order to use it effectively. Sure. Some asshole can pick up a crossbow and shotgun another person. Sure, that same guy can snipe you across the map too. The chances of this happening are minuscule. Shotgunning is easier, but less deadly. Most 2h and polearm Hero's should barely even feel the regular xbow bolt. Considering the fact that the shotgunner can't reload without taking cover, and at most is ruining about 1/2 of your max health is little to whine about in my eyes.
So maybe this thread is simply based as a whine against ranged. I will be the first to admit that there is an amazing amount of ranged on the servers nowadays. Probably because they are the most effective classes, which require less skill at blocking.
This thread had become a bit convoluted so I'll end it with only a few more points. 1. The Arbalest you guys whine about, costs as much as a courser. We wear little armor to turn a profit. 2. Just because a guy like Karma can top the scoreboards doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. cRPG is rather balanced in ranged at this point. Everyone can shotgun, everyone has cheap alternatives, with more expensive powerful options, everyone has the ability to carry melee skill while being able to shoot accurately at range. Yes, even archers can. You are a str based class, putting 3 less ath into ps isn't a horrible thing. 3. Look at strat. It is DOMINATED by ARCHERS. Clearly, this shows the balance of weapons now in a more neutral setting.
These are just my opinions however. Take them if you want, or don't.
Skill matters. No weapon nerf or buff can make up for a lack of it. Figure out a way to make your class beat the thing you dislike, if you can't, then it's the natural counter. This means that things are working.
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What do you mean the situation they are in? Sure some archers like Ashelia(sp?) are incredibly good, but that's only a very few archers, not including me. Bows don't do that much damage anyway. Even with Light Leather on I only took at the most 1/4 of my health away when shot by a bow, while if I was shot by a bolt it would be 1/2 at the least. The crossbow, which is what I'm using now still does more damage than the longbow, isn't really that much faster, and is still more accurate. If I feel like going with a 2-slotted crossbow I can and wield a Langes like you said or use the 50 points I can put into 1-hander as well and use an elite spammitar. And for upkeep, it's been consistently less than what is was with my previous build, which I find strange.
I would love to know what padded leather you're wearing as gafferjack and almost every other archer in c-rpg with a longbow can two-shot me with or without heirloomed items at 5 ironflesh. Also, the fact that you think the regular crossbow does more damage than the longbow says it all.The fact that the longbow's rate of fire is so much better totally balances it out.. If you had a longbow with the damage of a sniper xbow or even a regular crossbow you'd have one of the most overpowered weapons in the game.
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Just make the arrows faster. That is all. :o
Now that i started playing archer that is the only problem i would love to see go away, because now i have to go very close to the battle to actually hit something and do damage. It's just not cool to see your arrow hitting the ground 20 meters in front of your enemy, even if u aim like 30° (or more) higher.
Any kind of xbow-nerf would be great, too, but i can live with it the way it is now. I just don't shoot at xbows who are aiming at me. If they can't hide i pwn them ofc, but that is like never the case. If they can hide, they usually pwn me...they can just stand still and wait for me to do so as well and then BOOM...dead. Or i'm just a noob =(
And one thing more: Headshots should ALWAYS kill the opponent. At least at a minimum of like 25 cut-dmg and 5pd or so. I've seen many tincans survive headshots and that just sucks. It's hard enough to headshot somebody and when u do, they just survive. for teh lulz.
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Why a headshot should always be a kill?
If you talk of realism, then it's false, ppl can be shoot in the head and don't die (even with a gun) headskull is hard, an arrow could slip on it.
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I would love to know what padded leather you're wearing as gafferjack and almost every other archer in c-rpg with a longbow can two-shot me with or without heirloomed items at 5 ironflesh. Also, the fact that you think the regular crossbow does more damage than the longbow says it all.The fact that the longbow's rate of fire is so much better totally balances it out.. If you had a longbow with the damage of a sniper xbow or even a regular crossbow you'd have one of the most overpowered weapons in the game.
I never said that the longbow did more damage than the regular crossbow...
I said that crossbows do more damage generally, not against a longbower with 7-9 PD. As I said, rate of fire doesn't matter that much when a crossbower can just hide behind something. You clearly have never played as an archer, you would know. The only hope an archer has against a crossbower in cover is that the archer will get lucky and time the draw perfectly. I don't even care that the crossbow does more damage that the bow, what I hate is how easily they an be more accurate.
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Why a headshot should always be a kill?
If you talk of realism, then it's false, ppl can be shoot in the head and don't die (even with a gun) headskull is hard, an arrow could slip on it.
It would depend on how much kinetic energy the projectile had. Even if the projectile didn't kill you, you have a huge wound on your head and possibly a concussion.
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Why a headshot should always be a kill?
If you talk of realism, then it's false, ppl can be shoot in the head and don't die (even with a gun) headskull is hard, an arrow could slip on it.
I was not talking about realism...just game balance. Though ur argument made me lol.
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I never said that the longbow did more damage than the regular crossbow...
I said that crossbows do more damage generally, not against a longbower with 7-9 PD. As I said, rate of fire doesn't matter that much when a crossbower can just hide behind something. You clearly have never played as an archer, you would know. The only hope an archer has against a crossbower in cover is that the archer will get lucky and time the draw perfectly. I don't even care that the crossbow does more damage that the bow, what I hate is how easily they an be more accurate.
The funny thing is that I have played as an archer, if you'd actually read the posts I made you'd know that. In smaller area or town maps that have elevation crossbows thrive. Even then, if you know how to reload while moving you can easily push a crossbowmen off balance with your far superior mobility. If you can't figure that out then you should probably just stick to melee as dodging one or two bolts to get within range is stupidly easy.(You should be able to do it especially, you're such a zig zag master on your 2 handed crossbow guy after all aren't you?) In open plains maps or maps with more open, hilly areas archers do exceptionally well. Sorry archers don't have a more than fair shake against other ranged in every situation possible but thats the dynamic we have right now. I'll say it again in case you didn't bother to read the first part and just skimmed through, On non rainy days with city like maps with alot of cover crossbows do very well. On open terrain maps with less cover and more hills archery does very well, It's that simple. If you want crossbows to no longer be able to hold their shots, one of the only major advantages they have over archery at the moment, then you would drastically need change how crossbows function as a whole. Even then your reasoning is pretty shaky and seemingly based entirely off of opinion.
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The funny thing is that I have played as an archer, if you'd actually read the posts I made you'd know that. In smaller area or town maps that have elevation crossbows thrive. Even then, if you know how to reload while moving you can easily push a crossbowmen off balance with your far superior mobility. If you can't figure that out then you should probably just stick to melee as dodging one or two bolts to get within range is stupidly easy.(You should be able to do it especially, you're such a zig zag master on your 2 handed crossbow guy after all aren't you?) In open plains maps or maps with more open, hilly areas archers do exceptionally well. Sorry archers don't have a more than fair shake against other ranged in every situation possible but thats the dynamic we have right now. I'll say it again in case you didn't bother to read the first part and just skimmed through, On non rainy days with city like maps with alot of cover crossbows do very well. On open terrain maps with less cover and more hills archery does very well, It's that simple. If you want crossbows to no longer be able to hold their shots, one of the only major advantages they have over archery at the moment, then you would drastically need change how crossbows function as a whole. Even then your reasoning is pretty shaky and seemingly based entirely off of opinion.
Only the completely dedicated corssbowers would actually use their crossbows, the rest would just go melee in a map like that. All maps have some cover, only the stupid crossbowers would not fight near cover. Archers don't do well on the flat maps like you are talking about, cav kills everyone on that kind of map, and the restriction to only light armor makes that even easier for the cav. I'm guessing you only play siege. You misunderstood what I said in the first post anyway. I'm fine with the damage and armor issue, it's only the accuracy that I want changed. I'm saying that the accuracy should slowly(increasing with WPF) narrow down to waht it is now, not just instantly snap into the position. You could use your logic to nerf throwers again.
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Only the completely dedicated corssbowers would actually use their crossbows, the rest would just go melee in a map like that. All maps have some cover, only the stupid crossbowers would not fight near cover. Archers don't do well on the flat maps like you are talking about, cav kills everyone on that kind of map, and the restriction to only light armor makes that even easier for the cav. I'm guessing you only play siege. You misunderstood what I said in the first post anyway. I'm fine with the damage and armor issue, it's only the accuracy that I want changed. I'm saying that the accuracy should slowly(increasing with WPF) narrow down to waht it is now, not just instantly snap into the position. You could use your logic to nerf throwers again.
Ok, you should stop making assumptions about where and how I play as they(your assumptions) are totally irrelevant in this instance and not even a little bit accurate. In open plains maps Cav and archery are the dominating classes. Also, those crossbowmen that do go melee on those maps will get shot to bits in no time if that archer is worth his or her salt. And actually, most of the maps on the official server have only little thin trees for cover and can easily have shots angled to hit the person hiding behind the tree before they can ever get a bolt in your quiver. Any semi-competent archer knows this, maybe you yourself need to re-evaluate your playstyle a bit if you're going to stick with ranged combat? Go look at the fallen and see how they do on maps like those then tell me that open plains and hilly maps don't favor archers that know how to play to their class's strength. Given that a longbow with the stronger arrows can usually two or 3 shot most horses with the variable speed bonus makes them a terror for any cav player. Also, how exactly could my logic be used to nerf throwers? You are making less sense with every post my friend.
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REBALANCE THE SHOTSPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEd
if you want
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Both bows and crossbows are the way they should be.Crossbows are slow but powerful and bows are fast with varying power. The only thing that should change are the effectiveness of the weapon (being bow or crossbow) and were u hit your target should determine the damage inflicted (Tired of being shot in the foot and dieing) and crossbows and bows should break less than armor and swords, u don't block with them you just drop them, should not be damage so much and lastly the aiming on the crossbow is that way not because u suck at shooting but u did not load right.
Darkkarma's right too
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Everyone can use xbow its not need weapon point but archery need minimum 130wp. +1
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Ok, you should stop making assumptions about where and how I play as they(your assumptions) are totally irrelevant in this instance and not even a little bit accurate. In open plains maps Cav and archery are the dominating classes. Also, those crossbowmen that do go melee on those maps will get shot to bits in no time if that archer is worth his or her salt. And actually, most of the maps on the official server have only little thin trees for cover and can easily have shots angled to hit the person hiding behind the tree before they can ever get a bolt in your quiver. Any semi-competent archer knows this, maybe you yourself need to re-evaluate your playstyle a bit if you're going to stick with ranged combat? Go look at the fallen and see how they do on maps like those then tell me that open plains and hilly maps don't favor archers that know how to play to their class's strength. Given that a longbow with the stronger arrows can usually two or 3 shot most horses with the variable speed bonus makes them a terror for any cav player. Also, how exactly could my logic be used to nerf throwers? You are making less sense with every post my friend.
Once again your ignoring my original post. Crossbowers can eaisily hide behind trees, I've done it many times. Even with 0 WPF in crossbows, I can still shotgun easily. If I'm rich I might as well carry one around all the time. Yes, good archers can shoot down incoming melee and behind trees, but most archers aren't good archers are they? Yes, longbows can 3 shot horses, but crossbows can 1 or 2 shot them, especially the weaker ones. And have you ever seen a armored horse taken down by arrows? No, because it doesn't ever happen. Throwing is less accurate, less range, and can reload while moving. Even the damage is the same as the longbow. By your logic, it's completely balanced, it fits your definition of "balanced" perfectly. And I don't stick to ranged combat, that's why I switched to crossbow, so I could do both. So I'll say this again, because you appear to not be reading the OP. What do you have against making the accuracy of a crossbow narrow down slowly and stick, as opposed to just narrow down and stick?
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Once again your ignoring my original post. Crossbowers can eaisily hide behind trees, I've done it many times. Even with 0 WPF in crossbows, I can still shotgun easily. If I'm rich I might as well carry one around all the time. Yes, good archers can shoot down incoming melee and behind trees, but most archers aren't good archers are they? Yes, longbows can 3 shot horses, but crossbows can 1 or 2 shot them, especially the weaker ones. And have you ever seen a armored horse taken down by arrows? No, because it doesn't ever happen. Throwing is less accurate, less range, and can reload while moving. Even the damage is the same as the longbow. By your logic, it's completely balanced, it fits your definition of "balanced" perfectly. And I don't stick to ranged combat, that's why I switched to crossbow, so I could do both. So I'll say this again, because you appear to not be reading the OP. What do you have against making the accuracy of a crossbow narrow down slowly and stick, as opposed to just narrow down and stick?
As heavy cavalry I find that crossbowmen are an easy kill, I let them shoot my horse once and then they are either dead or they won't be able to reload for the rest of the round because of me harassing them.
Longbowmen however are a completely different story, yeah it is easy to couch a tunnel visioned archer but as soon as a half decent archer gets his sights on me I run away because longbow arrows kill my horse and me faster than anything else.
Since I started going heavy cav I don't think I have been killed by a crossbow more than 10-15 times, whereas the vast majority of my deaths are from longbows.
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Once again your ignoring my original post. Crossbowers can eaisily hide behind trees, I've done it many times. Even with 0 WPF in crossbows, I can still shotgun easily. If I'm rich I might as well carry one around all the time. Yes, good archers can shoot down incoming melee and behind trees, but most archers aren't good archers are they? Yes, longbows can 3 shot horses, but crossbows can 1 or 2 shot them, especially the weaker ones. And have you ever seen a armored horse taken down by arrows? No, because it doesn't ever happen. Throwing is less accurate, less range, and can reload while moving. Even the damage is the same as the longbow. By your logic, it's completely balanced, it fits your definition of "balanced" perfectly. And I don't stick to ranged combat, that's why I switched to crossbow, so I could do both. So I'll say this again, because you appear to not be reading the OP. What do you have against making the accuracy of a crossbow narrow down slowly and stick, as opposed to just narrow down and stick?
As bad player just pointed out, ranged in general doesn't take down armored horses, on their own, they are meant to be tanks, so that's sort of irrelevant. I already responded to your "crossbows can hide behind trees" remark. An archer's superior reload mobility totally negates what little cover a crossbower has on open field maps. Also, one thin little tree to hide behind puts an xbower at a serious disadvantage when it comes to trying to fight off an archer with a longbow. And my Issue with it "narrowing down slowly" is that it would essentially be giving all crossbowmen the issue with fire delay that the arbalest gives. What is the point? Especially when we have in most cases at least a 1-2 second reload time on our xbows after we shoot? Unless you wanted to talk about increasing xbow damage or range going along with this longer reticule narrowdown it would be a huge kick it in the pants to xbowers. Also, I hope you enjoy losing all of your money gradually if you want to 0 wpf most xbows as you wont be getting any kind of consistent reward for having that mini horse on your back other than the occasional range kill.
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As bad player just pointed out, ranged in general doesn't take down armored horses, on their own, they are meant to be tanks, so that's sort of irrelevant. I already responded to your "crossbows can hide behind trees" remark. An archer's superior reload mobility totally negates what little cover a crossbower has on open field maps. Also, one thin little tree to hide behind puts an xbower at a serious disadvantage when it comes to trying to fight off an archer with a longbow. And my Issue with it "narrowing down slowly" is that it would essentially be giving all crossbowmen the issue with fire delay that the arbalest gives. What is the point? Especially when we have in most cases at least a 1-2 second reload time on our xbows after we shoot? Unless you wanted to talk about increasing xbow damage or range going along with this longer reticule narrowdown it would be a huge kick it in the pants to xbowers. Also, I hope you enjoy losing all of your money gradually if you want to 0 wpf most xbows as you wont be getting any kind of consistent reward for having that mini horse on your back other than the occasional range kill.
I did suggest a increase in missile speed in the OP. As for damage, I was getting one-shotted in a kuyak last night, I don't really think that damage is much of an issue. As I said, I would only carry around a crossbow with 0 WPF if I was rich, I'm not saying it's a thing for everyone. Your logic about archers versus crossbowers would make since in a ranged duel type of situation, not a real battle, where the crossbowman would not always be the target. I've reloaded in an open field several times in an actual battle, all you have to do is make sure nobody is gunning for you. I've also been in the "ranged duel" situation, and yes, there you're right, archers would kill me, supplying that I couldn't get to them, for any reason. I'm not really saying that ranged should be able to take down armored horses, If I had my way, arrows and most bolts would glance against plate armor.
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This was closest topic for this even thou it is old one. :rolleyes:
Seems weapon proficiency points requirements are not happening and xbows keep been used by everyone and their pets.
So, how about if use of xbows are tied into power draw or power throw?
In order to use crossbow (light to arbalest) you need to invest (pick a skill) x amount (pick a number) of skill points?
This way you stand to lose more than just gold if you wanno carry crossbow.
Investing actual skill points is gonno hurt your build so unless you are serious about using xbows it does not pay off.
No more sidearm shotgun.
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its time to bodkin arrows weight 6 instead of 3