A balance for crossbow and archery.

[Okkam]

Wpf does affect crossbow reload times and the chance to break so xbow users do have to use it.  For the record once you've put 100 points into crossbow proficiency you're limited to just 133 points in a 2nd proficiency at level 30 with 6WM.  It doesn't exactly make you the melee killing machine that some people think xbow users are.  Using an Arbalast without wpf just loses you cash and if you use an arbalast you only have 1 slot left for melee weapons.  Most people using an xbow as a sidearm are using the 1 slot crossbow which only has 54 pierce damage compared to 81 making it significantly less powerful.  For instance, i'm pretty sure the crossbow doesn't fire through shields

Can I ask you, why you make an example with 6WM statistics? With standart 15\24 xbowman build you'll have at least 8WM. Enough for 150 in xbows and 111 in 2H. And 100+ in 2H is enough for battle. Especially with fast weapons like mace or langes messer.

Most people using an xbow as a sidearm are using the 1 slot crossbow which only has 54 pierce damage

I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.

Make all weapons useable with 2 hands into 2 slot weapons.  I'm referring to the Mace, Langes Messer, Staff, Quarter Staff and Military Fork here and really they just act as loopholes to get round the slot system.  This would make sure that Arbalast and Longbow users do actually suffer some sort of melee penalty - either having to use a 1H weapon with no shield or a shield with a very weak 1H weapon.

I have another awesome suggestion. Let's make all shields 4 slot items, and all 2H and polearms 5 slots weapons. Just for lulz.

For instance, i'm pretty sure the crossbow doesn't fire through shields

I think you just play another game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FKD1WrCwGM

[Blondin]

Ok Cupid, i can be your hero if you want!

We were talking about archer and xbowman, if you meet 2 xbowmen you can reach one before both reload, if you meet 2 archers they can run forever.
Meaning you have a chance against xbowmen not against archers.
It's always the same for xbowmen, they have to reload.

But again, the final goal is strategus, and xbow are less effective than bow in strat.

[Tomas]

Can I ask you, why you make an example with 6WM statistics? With standart 15\24 xbowman build you'll have at least 8WM. Enough for 150 in xbows and 111 in 2H. And 100+ in 2H is enough for battle. Especially with fast weapons like mace or langes messer.

I used 6WM as that's what my current xbow build is it so i know the figures.  If people want to go 8WM then fair enough but that means just 15 strength and 5 PS.  Not exactly an amazing melee build which doesn't go against my point that crossbow users do have to sacrifice melee capability which is what brings them into balance.  As for the mace and langes messer being fast enough for you to cope with only 100 wpf - that's eaxactly why i think them being 1 slot weapons is a loophole in the slot system which should be closed.

I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.

I'm not sure what your point is here? I was just pointing out that there is a significant difference between a 1 slot crossbow and a 2 slot Arbalast. Where do Jarids come into it?

I have another awesome suggestion. Let's make all shields 4 slot items, and all 2H and polearms 5 slots weapons. Just for lulz.

What exactly is your view on crossbow users.  You seem to be saying that they are overpowered as people can use them and still have enough wpf to be competitive when using weapons such as the Mace or Langes Messer.  However, when i suggest something that would prevent this and bring those weapons into line with all other weapons you rubbish the suggestion.

[Spawny]

I really like your suggestion. ONLY 54 PIERCE damage. ONLY 10 Pierce damage more than Masterwork Jarid.

No.

If you take into consideration the damage bonus from just 4 PT (+10% per PT) and a bit of wpf to make use of that PT, you end up with just over 60 pierce damage on the Masterwork Jarid.

[tankmen]

just a thought, and i didn't feel like making a new thread, but what if WPF for crossbows didn't make the reticule smaller. sure increase speed but the fact that the reticule gets smaller is IMO what makes dedicated crossbow better than archery, they still would need to get high crossbow skill other wise it will break each round, but they wont be snipers and if they hit you, you know its without a dime sized reticule and they earned that shot a bit more... Just a suggestion 

[slothscott]

I think they should just raise the required strength for crossbows meaning people can't get such high wpm and can't hybrid as much with crossbow builds.

[MadJackMcMad]

Point me to any evidence that medieval crossbow was «Accurate».
Can't?

There are references that suggest their accuracy was similar to, and occasionally greater than Bows, due to reduced 'elastic hysteresis'.  Unfortunately I cannot quite understand what this means.  Hysteresis appears to be the characteristic that something follows a return path that is different from the outgoing path.  Perhaps this means that since the bow lacks a stock to hold the bowstring in place, it may divert upon release.

[Paul]

Elastic hystereris would mean that one gets less energy out of the bow spring than one put in to draw it(loss by heating up etc., bigger effect when drawing fast). For hard metals like steel this effect is very small, so steel bow crossbows don't suffer from it.

[Darkkarma]

thats pretty much already the case.  if you take away reticule they could put archery speed back up to normal and maybe even make them draw faster

I don't think it's fair to say that the majority of xbowers shotgun. It certainly isn't the case with archers. Hitting things from great distance is hard enough with reticules at the moment, It would become virtually impossible without them.

[Aleskander]

While this thead was going I respeced to a crossbow/2hander build. I now have twice the WPF in my melee skill(2handed now, compared to 1handed with no shield), am about 1.5 times more accurate with about 30 less WPF, do more damage, and a better damage type, and can now wear medium/heavy armor without getting as big of an accuracy penalty. But, since I can't win standing alone in the middle of an open field(which are all over the place in maps, and everyone always fights there), the builds are balanced right? Wait, scratch that. I could just zig-zag and kill the archer with my superior melee stats, heavier armor, and longer weapon.

[Darkkarma]

While this thead was going I respeced to a crossbow/2hander build. I now have twice the WPF in my melee skill(2handed now, compared to 1handed with no shield), am about 1.5 times more accurate with about 30 less WPF, do more damage, and a better damage type, and can now wear medium/heavy armor without getting as big of an accuracy penalty. But, since I can't win standing alone in the middle of an open field(which are all over the place in maps, and everyone always fights there), the builds are balanced right? Wait, scratch that. I could just zig-zag and kill the archer with my superior melee stats, heavier armor, and longer weapon.

So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee,  and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?

[Tomas]

So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee,  and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?

Except in Siege - I can get pretty near the top of the scoreboard in siege with my Arbalast when defending a castle.  Especially if my team is decent, another crossbowman dies near me to give me extra bolts and I can find a good sniping spot 

[AzureSkys]

I think they're pretty decently balanced since xbows can't move to reload and stuff. The horse xbowers are getting better which can be scary, but not as much a threat as HAs. Xbows do the most damage when teams are still sided. Once they're spread out and they can't get to cover to reload they suffer and get picked off by remaining archers.

 However, I die more to bolts than I do to arrows, maybe since I do the archery stuff and know some of their tactics and can walk out of an arrows way.... I die to more bolt wounds followed by their shooter's melee attack than I do an archer's melee attack as well since xbowers have better hybrid builds.

The biggest issue to me is arrow speed. I've not had a positive kill ratio since the patch but I also am terrible at this game so that's no huge surprise. I did way better before, though I'm getting more used to it and can only shoot at folks who don't know I'm shooting at them. If that could be returned to what it was, or at least close, I think there'd be more contentment.

[Aleskander]

So you're complaining because crossbows are easier to hybrid with than bows? Given how situation dependent crossbows are I don't see why they shouldn't be given a slightly easier time when in hybrid mode. Also, you're definitely generalizing. You'll be at a disadvantage in terms of how well you can do in melee,  and more experienced archers with dedicated builds will shoot you to pieces every time. Unless you use a short 2-hander like the Langes, you'll be forced to go with the slower, shorter range regular crossbow as best. You'll be average in both areas but not great in either. I can almost guarantee you that you will not top the scoreboards or do consistently well with such a build. Also, how are upkeep costs treating you?

What do you mean the situation they are in? Sure some archers like Ashelia(sp?) are incredibly good, but that's only a very few archers, not including me. Bows don't do that much damage anyway. Even with Light Leather on I only took at the most 1/4 of my health away when shot by a bow, while if I was shot by a bolt it would be 1/2 at the least. The crossbow, which is what I'm using now still does more damage than the longbow, isn't really that much faster, and is still more accurate. If I feel like going with a 2-slotted crossbow I can and wield a Langes like you said or use the 50 points I can put into 1-hander as well and use an elite spammitar. And for upkeep, it's been consistently less than what is was with my previous build, which I find strange.

[Visus]

I just want to say that I believe this tread is a tremendous amount of bullshit concocted by people who have been killed a lot by xbows recently.

 You may say" but Visus you play as an xbow on your main", correct. I also just did several other builds before this most current one in order to test out the balance of cRPG and Strat. This being said, Archery is incredibly powerful if you know how to work it. A longbow with 8-9 pd and good arrows does just as much damage as an Arba+bolts when the prof and pd is factored in.

I could constantly kill anyone without a shield who came at me. And when they god close, I had a pick in order to put my 5 ps to good use.

I recently also did a 2h hero build. Longbows were my worst fear. In heavyish armor (rus scale) and a str build, I feared crossbows less than most other things. They could only hit me once for high damage before I could close or run away. Longbows could pin me down, put me scrambling for cover, or just kite me all over the battle. Yes, Arba's hurt...but it was rare to be sniped by one or shotgunned if you know what you are doing.

Cav. My worst fear was Longbows, they honestly wreck either your horse or you in very few shots. Then again, tunnel vision on longbowmen and other archers gained me many kills. This being said, you have to know how to flank.

Xbow. Shields are my worst enemy. As a guy with 60 prof in 1h and 140 in xbow, I can fight but must choose my blows carefully. The slight stun when hitting a shield really messes up my rythem. The clear benefits of xbowing is shotgunning and reloading in cover. Aiming is just as hard as with a bow, if not harder due to the time spent between shots. Your target can move to a whole different distance or orientation, making you guess the range again. This is especially true with rain. It completely screws the class. My xbow is my main weapon, and when it drops exponentially because of some slight wetness it creates problems. I guess the main thing I can say about surviving and prospering in xbow is having skill at it.

Guess the reoccurring theme here. You need to have skill, or practice with the weapon in order to use it effectively. Sure. Some asshole can pick up a crossbow and shotgun another person. Sure, that same guy can snipe you across the map too. The chances of this happening are minuscule. Shotgunning is easier, but less deadly. Most 2h and polearm Hero's should barely even feel the regular xbow bolt. Considering the fact that the shotgunner can't reload without taking cover, and at most is ruining about 1/2 of your max health is little to whine about in my eyes.

So maybe this thread is simply based as a whine against ranged. I will be the first to admit that there is an amazing amount of ranged on the servers nowadays. Probably because they are the most effective classes, which require less skill at blocking.

This thread had become a bit convoluted so I'll end it with only a few more points. 1. The Arbalest you guys whine about, costs as much as a courser. We wear little armor to turn a profit. 2. Just because a guy like Karma can top the scoreboards doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. cRPG is rather balanced in ranged at this point. Everyone can shotgun, everyone has cheap alternatives, with more expensive powerful options, everyone has the ability to carry melee skill while being able to shoot accurately at range. Yes, even archers can. You are a str based class, putting 3 less ath into ps isn't a horrible thing. 3. Look at strat. It is DOMINATED by ARCHERS. Clearly, this shows the balance of weapons now in a more neutral setting.

These are just my opinions however. Take them if you want, or don't.

Skill matters. No weapon nerf or buff can make up for a lack of it. Figure out a way to make your class beat the thing you dislike, if you can't, then it's the natural counter. This means that things are working.