cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: DrKronic on July 24, 2011, 09:07:04 am
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seriously, makes dueling completely anyone reasonable nearly impossible, don't give me this "realism" argument either, as completely low strength people run around blocking 5 KG maces/morningstars with butter knives now
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Axes don't have crush yet they are unbalanced. Deal with it. Those weapons are fine.
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whining about skill while lobbying for a mechanic that removes skill from the equation. LOLNORMBFORYOU!!!
Yup
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actually no gorath, I've switched to polespam like the rest of the world, I was just suggesting as I noticed basically in a bec I have a much faster morningstar without unbalanced, but whatever live in your dumbass world, its not skill, u said so yourself blocking isn't hard so many times it made me sick lobbying for shield buffs
so now u change your story whenever it suits you, fuck off
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har I'm a troll
thanks for contributing nothing, as usual, also I wasn't talking about axes at all, I'm talking about the bar mace/MS, the unbalanced was there to offset the crush, without it honestly not, my MW bec is better range and speed than either of those with same damage, but for some reason in some areas we say oh we want "realism", oh its not fair the way the animation of your hands look that has to be unbalanced but hey if I use my bec then its fine
well guess what now everyone just runs around with poleaxes/becs or a 1h if they know whats right for em, or get stunned to death, honestly I do fine, better than noskill Gorath, I mean good players will just migrate to the best weapons(duh), not gonna keep playing 2h just to beat my head into high reduce armors and super long range/awesome duel weapons/stunning polearms/nearly unbreakable shield hyper speed 1hers, no point to do that
just saying 2h deserves some love, no reason to just fuck the class because of the retarded quasi-realism arguments basically offered by Gorath in the past, which never really made sense if we don't give a shit about realism here(I mean its so much more realistic for me to run around with a long spear and a bec on my back, honestly its easier for me now vs everything(horses/archers/2hers/1hs as a poleuser)
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:rolleyes:
You try way too hard which just ends up failing at the trolling you so desperately seem to want to do. I'd take you more seriously but insulting my kid on the servers is just a sign of desperation and need for attention. Arch villains have class and style buddy, you're more like a random thug in a filler episode.
*pssst, I never said anything about axes, but nice quote change there. observant isn't one of your skills.*
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Heh is he complaing about the devs removing crush on morningstar and Long Iron Mace :?: if so he shouldnt be allowed to post in the balance forum section.
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U mad?
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completely missed what I'm actually posting about
I'm not asking for crush back, I'm asking for balance
so explain to me how a mighty long iron mace (92 speed, 96 length, 36b but unbalanced) is somehow way too strong and my MW bec de corbin(94 speed, 39p, 28p, 120 length) is totally fine, and btw I can use the bec from a horse, and usually my prefered method of fighting involves bringing a long spear with the bec on my back?
it really seems like everyone is just biased or just has no clue what the 3 melee weapon classes actually can do, we should rename 2hand to "Polearm 2" and I think problem solved
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so explain to me how a mighty long iron mace (92 speed, 96 length, 36b but unbalanced) is somehow way too strong and my MW bec de corbin(94 speed, 39p, 28p, 120 length) is totally fine, and btw I can use the bec from a horse, and usually my prefered method of fighting involves bringing a long spear with the bec on my back?
Well, the long iron mace is technically longer due to animation and is also WAY cheaper than the bec for one. Also, the long iron mace mace has knockdown.
Having a weapon being unbalanced is also not as crippling as a lot of people make it out to be. I only use unbalanced weapons on my 2-hander and never run into problems as long as I'm being careful.
seriously, makes dueling completely anyone reasonable nearly impossible
Unbalanced weapons aren't designed for dueling anyway so...why are you complaining that they aren't good for dueling?
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To be honest, I agree with removing the unbalanced tag from Long iron mace/ bar mace/ Morningstar/Studded warclub.
However, I suggest losing 2 or 3 weapon speed when they lose the unbalanced tag. I think it would be much more balanced as weapons then, and we might see people using them again! They don't have crushthrough, so they shouldn't have they unbalanced tag anymore.
I think it would be an even trade off for balance purposes.
I am also of the opinion that the War cleaver should undergo something similar, to have some benefit to being unbalanced, like +3 more damage?
As with the 2h versions, I think the same with the pole arm ones that are rarely used now as well. They were a bit OP but now they are hardly usable with the unbalanced tag. I think the Long spiked club, Long hafted knobbed mace, and the Long hafted spiked mace should also lose 2 or three speed but lose the unbalanced tag.
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Unbalanced is awesome, most polearms should have it too.
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so explain to me how a mighty long iron mace (92 speed, 96 length, 36b but unbalanced) is somehow way too strong and my MW bec de corbin(94 speed, 39p, 28p, 120 length) is totally fine, and btw I can use the bec from a horse, and usually my prefered method of fighting involves bringing a long spear with the bec on my back?
1. Bec should not be usable from horse back. I was not aware that it was usable.
2. This is why nearly all polearms should get the "cannot sheath" tag. If you bring a polearm, you cannot bring another large weapon, that should be the large penalty of it and surprisingly, this is true to real life as well.
In term stats balance, the iron mace has a high chance of knock down which is a huge advantage. The beck can loose a few points of damage from its swing without hurting it much. The practical reach of the two is not very different.
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Just a quick comment.
Well, the long iron mace is technically longer due to animation
No. Bec is longer, since it loses ~20 length. It is also much, much faster than any unbalanced 2hander which deals comparable amount of damage.
I'm not whining since I've learnt to deal with it.
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Just a quick comment.No. Bec is longer, since it loses ~20 length.
Bec loses ~20 length on swings. Iron Mace GAINS length (I forget the exact number) which makes it a very close call.
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I definitely agree. Make Morningstar, Bar Mace, and Long Iron Mace balanced!
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better yet, make the bec only attack in two directions and make it longer.
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No, add imbalances to all the bullshit polearms instead.
Oh a great axe eh? Unbalanced at its tiny size even if it does good damage.
Great long axe? Fucking massive, higher damage unbalanced? No? Because you grip it like a polearm? Sure if it was the same size as a great axe this would make sense. However it isn't it is twice the damn size! It is just bigger and better with the main disadvantages of the great ace (3 attack directions only and imbalanced) taken away!
There are plenty other bullshit pole weapons too.
Oh look a little spear? That tiny piece of metal on the end does more P damage than a greatsword! How does that work?
Well you see if has this pole and well you got hands on your arms so it you know, magically does more damage!
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Grab a broom, brushy end away from you. Hold it at the base as a 2h. Thrust it that way. Now hold it as a pole arm, thrust it that way.
As a 2h you get much more reach but a weaker thrust. Pole arm has a stronger thrust but much less reach.
Now hold your broom as a 2h, swing it around. You get lots of reach but it is very unwieldy, hard to cancel directions and feint. How hold it as a pole arm, much less reach but much more control, very easy to move around and is not unbalanced.
Pros and cons. Plus, this is a pretty good example as a broom has identical weight distribution to an axe.
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No, add imbalances to all the bullshit polearms instead.
Oh a great axe eh? Unbalanced at its tiny size even if it does good damage.
Great long axe? Fucking massive, higher damage unbalanced? No? Because you grip it like a polearm? Sure if it was the same size as a great axe this would make sense. However it isn't it is twice the damn size! It is just bigger and better with the main disadvantages of the great ace (3 attack directions only and imbalanced) taken away!
There are plenty other bullshit pole weapons too.
Oh look a little spear? That tiny piece of metal on the end does more P damage than a greatsword! How does that work?
Well you see if has this pole and well you got hands on your arms so it you know, magically does more damage!
Someone that doesn't understand the way the human body or physics works.
Grab a broom, brushy end away from you. Hold it at the base as a 2h. Thrust it that way. Now hold it as a pole arm, thrust it that way.
As a 2h you get much more reach but a weaker thrust. Pole arm has a stronger thrust but much less reach.
Now hold your broom as a 2h, swing it around. You get lots of reach but it is very unwieldy, hard to cancel directions and feint. How hold it as a pole arm, much less reach but much more control, very easy to move around and is not unbalanced.
Pros and cons. Plus, this is a pretty good example as a broom has identical weight distribution to an axe.
Indeed Marathon, indeed.
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I believe the density of straw or plastic on the end of a broom is rather different from the density of the iron or steel axehead as seen on the great axe. I might imagine this should have rather a large effect on weight distribution and therefore balance.
I would also hesitate before assuming that because I, when waving a broom around, happen to have a better polearm thrusting technique than 2h one that therefore polearms are all better at thrusting than swords.
I should imagine trained warriors had various techniques far above and beyond what you would learn from swinging around a broom.
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Anyway I understand inertia and I do not buy that a great long axe is a balanced weapon compared to a spear. Anyway it is already clear that not all polearms are unequivocally balanced, the long maul is unbalanced and a polearm, as is the great long bardiche, so clearly there is no black and white distinction between 2h and pole weapons. So suggesting I am a moron because I think some polearms are balanced when they should not be is a bit short sighted don't you think.
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I did not insult you in any way, nor call you a moron. I simply gave you a practical example of weight distribution and weapon holding to make a point. And, no really, brooms have identical weight distribution to an axe of equal size. Both the haft and the end are lighter for a broom, it evens out.
And just as someone can have training better in 2h, they can in pole arms a well. Not a point to argue.
And yes, The long maul and great long bardiche are unbalanced due to the sheer amount of weight at the tip. Even holding them in pole style they are still unbalanced -- and even moreso, they are unbalanced for game balance.
Anyways, if you look at my posts in this thread, I'm lobbying for the removal of unbalanced from a lot of 2h weapons if you read.
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I should imagine trained warriors had various techniques far above and beyond what you would learn from swinging around a broom.
Yeah, for thrusting long swords (2her's for game comparison) they used halfswording a good portion of the time, which is holding the sword like a polearm for better thrusting power.
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Bec loses ~20 length on swings. Iron Mace GAINS length (I forget the exact number) which makes it a very close call.
this mace is longer using over-head attacks by 6 points , the same length using left-to-right swings, 9 points shorter using right-to-left swings, 61 longer on thrusts (though i doubt you can compare thrusts of these weapons
Long Iron Mace VS Bec de Corbin
110 (+6) Overhead attacks (effective length points) 105
112 Left-to-right swings (effective length points) 113 (+1)
108 Right-to-left swings (effective length points) 118 (+10)
~175 (+36) Thrust (effective length points) 139
Blunt (marked this green because blunt is more effective against any type of armour than pierce except cases of huge amounts of PS and STR) Damage type Pierce
Knockdown Bonuses No
No Balanced Yes
No Usage on horseback Yes
No Weapon type bonuses Can stop horses using thrust
33b Swing damage 36p
20b Thrust damage 26p
5662 Price 10806
92 Speed rating 93
4.5 Weight 2.8
14 Difficulty 15
7:8. Bec wins but this is a premature comparison, tbh. These weapons are different and they're better than each other in different situations.
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110% awesome post by dave.
honestly iron mace should lose the unbalanced tag, but lose some speed too.
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Long Iron Mace
+Damage Type(Blunt)
+Knockdown
-Unbalanced
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Morningstar
+Damage Type(Pierce)
+Effective on Horseback.
+1h/2h switch
+Bonus Against Shields
-Unbalanced
_______________
Bec De Corbin
+ Damage Type(Pierce)
- None
I don't see any problems with these weapons , i think they are balanced somehow.
To understand why some weapons are unbalanced you have to check their "center of mass" . If most of the weight stays on a particular section of an object (Like an axe or maul for example.) it is unbalanced.
If you want to swing this unbalanced object in a balanced and well controlled way, you have to hold it closer to it's metal part to direct your force balanced to it which will provide an easily controllable swing.
That's why most of the polearms are balanced and they lose hell of a range.
Why spear thrust deal more damage than a sword ?
Little and pointy metal designed to penetrate flesh and cause fatal damage to inner organs.It has a design same as arrow,bolt and modern bullet design.Swords in cRPG (Broadswords and such)mostly designed to cut off limbs because this was the technique to use swords till 16th century.If you check 16th-17th century Rapier style swords you'll see they designed to penetrate armour and flesh to cause fatal damage to inner organs like spears but you can't cut off limbs with that ;)
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Yeah, for thrusting long swords (2her's for game comparison) they used halfswording a good portion of the time, which is holding the sword like a polearm for better thrusting power.
Which a swordsman would be trained in doing, not a spearman, so why should a swordsman need polearm training to use his weapon properly?
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Marathon I am aware you were polite, that particular comment was not aimed at you.
Anyway I would think the great long bardiche and the great long axe are somewhat similar...
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Anyway I would think the great long bardiche and the great long axe are somewhat similar...
length. All about the length.
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Long Maul
weapon length: 125
weight: 7
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 70
weapon length: 125
thrust damage: 10 blunt
swing damage: 37 blunt
slots: 3
Great Long Axe
weapon length: 125
weight: 3.5
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 91
weapon length: 125
thrust damage: 16 blunt
swing damage: 45 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
Great Long Bardiche
weapon length: 155
weight: 3.8
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 87
weapon length: 155
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Glaive
weapon length: 160
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 160
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut
slots: 2
Not all, apparently.
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Not all, apparently.
a long maul weighs twice as much as a gla, while a glb weighs a lot more than a glaive
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Not all, apparently.
What are you trying to point out here? That the great maul is shorter than polearms?
This whine over a truely, at it's core since forever, crutch baddie mechanic is rediculous.
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this mace is longer using over-head attacks by 6 points , the same length using left-to-right swings, 9 points shorter using right-to-left swings, 61 longer on thrusts (though i doubt you can compare thrusts of these weapons
Long Iron Mace VS Bec de Corbin
110 (+6) Overhead attacks (effective length points) 105
112 Left-to-right swings (effective length points) 113 (+1)
108 Right-to-left swings (effective length points) 118 (+10)
~175 (+36) Thrust (effective length points) 139
Blunt (marked this green because blunt is more effective against any type of armour than pierce except cases of huge amounts of PS and STR) Damage type Pierce
Knockdown Bonuses No
No Balanced Yes
No Usage on horseback Yes
No Weapon type bonuses Can stop horses using thrust
33b Swing damage 36p
20b Thrust damage 26p
5662 Price 10806
92 Speed rating 93
4.5 Weight 2.8
14 Difficulty 15
7:8. Bec wins but this is a premature comparison, tbh. These weapons are different and they're better than each other in different situations.
only 2 minor problems, remember long iron mace actually uses polearm stab animation(so shorter stab), also after change to armor(high reduce/low soak now) Pierce is actually better at damaging armor than Blunt is(because Pierce goes mostly through Reduce/not through Soak like blunt does)
but Soak isn't what armor is anymore(this is why you don't glance)
I was talking to my brother(who was a developer for TW) and he was explaining the high soak was actually to simulate the padding of armor, it was interesting mebbe one day I can get him to explain that to me in text form lol
also physics arguments don't apply, as Tears would post in gigantic red letters to explain to you it doesn't matter what your fake animation hands look like on a weapon
PS btw if hold something that has a huge heavy end (which u are not holding) and it is like 10-15 feet long, it is nothing like swinging a broom, sorry it's still "Unbalanced" and hard to stop a swing, because the weight is not evenly distributed, but what would I know about physics, I'm only a professional engineer with a degree in engineering *lol*
its similar to a pendulum, which tends to stay in motion because of that heavy weight(go figure)
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I was pointing out it was not all about length. I thought that much was obvious. :rolleyes:
Smart Kronic is smart, no wonder he is a Doctor ;)
PS pssssst Gorath, maybe you did not notice but that maul IS a polearm!
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PS pssssst Gorath, maybe you did not notice but that maul IS a polearm!
Misread that obviously, if you notice in my post it says "great maul". It's what I get for quickly scanning the forums after work. /shrug.