cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: ArchonAlarion on July 15, 2011, 04:59:34 am
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Why is shield skill dependent on Agility?
Powerstrike - strength
Powerdraw (difficulty for bows) - strength
Powerthrow (difficulty for throwing) - strength
Shield (difficulty for shields) - ... Agilty
wtf.
You need to be strong enough to wield this axe, or that bow, or that javelin.
Sorry you are not agile enough to wield a huscarl shield.
Nope, stupid.
It is silly for realism, it is silly for balance, it is silly every way you cut it, pierce it, or blunt it.
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It is silly for realism, it is silly for balance, it is silly every way you cut it, pierce it, or blunt it.
I only upvoted this because of that sentence.
Oh, and I don't think we should put ANOTHER thing in strength's favor. and, of course shield is agility. You have to be fast and responsive. You can't just HOLD THE SHIELD STRONGER.
33/3 PS/shield/IF turtle LOLOLOLOLOL
wat
nope
*just to let you know what that would look like:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 33
Agility: 3
Hit points: 80
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 11
Shield: 11
Athletics: 1
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 0
One Handed: 113
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
This is a joke gimmick, but a more sane strength build like 27/9? Fuck no.
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Really man?
I almost cannot believe that anyone could argue against this.
If the stat benefits from the new way of doing shields would be unfair, then just tone down the coverage/spd benefits.
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Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 27
Agility: 9
Hit points: 78
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 8
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 9
Athletics: 3
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 0
One Handed: 113
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
No problem? no?
You DON'T see a problem with this? Really?
They would walk around as fucking tanks. And I mean Tanks.
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Shield skill represents the skill of the user at handling their shield to intercept projectiles and parry attacks to minimize damage. That is why it is agility based; it requires fast reflexes and technical skill, not just a strong arm. This is the way it has been defined since the original M&B by Armagan and the game developers. In light of this, it makes sense for it to be agility based.
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No. I imagine it would make a full strength shielder a real nightmare.
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Shield skill represents the skill of the user at handling their shield to intercept projectiles and parry attacks to minimize damage. That is why it is agility based; it requires fast reflexes and technical skill, not just a strong arm. This is the way it has been defined since the original M&B by Armagan and the game developers. In light of this, it makes sense for it to be agility based.
No. I imagine it would make a full strength shielder a real nightmare.
Saved me a bunch of typing, thank you.
The synergy alone of it working so well as a melee with just one less reason to take Agil makes me say no to this.
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Shield skill represents the skill of the user at handling their shield to intercept projectiles and parry attacks to minimize damage. That is why it is agility based; it requires fast reflexes and technical skill, not just a strong arm. This is the way it has been defined since the original M&B by Armagan and the game developers. In light of this, it makes sense for it to be agility based.
The stronger you are, the faster and more firmly you can move a shield.
Being a lithe elf princess doesn't make you better at wielding a shield.
ALSO AND FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, why can a 33/3 char lift and wield a great maul, but can't fucking figure out a huscarl shield? Why can he wield a danish greatsword, but can't figure out a plain round shield? I can use your reasoning for any weapon/item that is already strength based.
If shield skill was purely for boosting spd and coverage, I might go along with armagan's bs, but because it also unlocks the use of shields, I cannot see the logic.
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I'm a 1h/shielder. This is a terrible idea. It would make Turtle shielders the most rediculesly over powered thing in the game.
I don't give a ducks nutts to the 'realism' debate inrelationg to this shite.
lvl 30 char
32str 3ag
10IF
10SS
10PS
1ath
113 1h WPF
That would be insane. You would hit like several trucks and have an unbreakable huscalrs shield.
Let me just interperate what your saying.
"I WANT TO BE UNSTOPABLE RAHHHHHHHH. AND EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY MIGHTYNESSSS!!!"
1h/shielder is FINE! Leave it alone.
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How I wish it wouldnt screw up balance like this...
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would be the most broken shit ever. right now shielders trade damage, hp and armour for shield effectiveness and speed. you want to make it a choice between damage, hp, armour and shield effectiveness, or speed? lol. id be 33/3 in a heart beat. black armour with a indestructible huscrals and id hit like a fucking truck with a long espada and all its glorious reach.
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You would remove the only thing that prevents most shielders to go 10+ Power Strike? Makes sense.
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It would be glorious! But OP :(
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Nothing strange about the suggestion, coming from a guy with a char named: NASTY_TURTLE......... :wink:
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it's the only way to keep shielders at reasonable hitpoints.
i say no for your selfish idea.
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I needed a good laugh this morning and this suggestion was it.
While you're at it, why don't we just remove agi entirely? I mean, if I have really strong legs, I could probably run faster too. Or if I had really strong arms, I could probably swing my weapon faster. Your idea fails on so many levels.
Also as everyone above has stated, it would make strength builds - who are currently too good - even better.
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I needed a good laugh this morning and this suggestion was it.
While you're at it, why don't we just remove agi entirely? I mean, if I have really strong legs, I could probably run faster too. Or if I had really strong arms, I could probably swing my weapon faster. Your idea fails on so many levels.
Also as everyone above has stated, it would make strength builds - who are currently too good - even better.
Yeah, it s true. Specially with WPP cap. I think also that at the begining, mount and blade wasnt designed with multiplayer and balance in mind...
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Nothing strange about the suggestion, coming from a guy with a char named: NASTY_TURTLE......... :wink:
Yeah one of my FIVE chars is a shielder, screw you.
it's the only way to keep shielders at reasonable hitpoints.
i say no for your selfish idea.
Projection. I don't think the same way you do.
I needed a good laugh this morning and this suggestion was it.
Don't be a condescending piece of shit.
While you're at it, why don't we just remove agi entirely? I mean, if I have really strong legs, I could probably run faster too. Or if I had really strong arms, I could probably swing my weapon faster. Your idea fails on so many levels.
Yeah actually, I've considered this already. Agility is basically redundant.
Also as everyone above has stated, it would make strength builds - who are currently too good - even better.
All of you are stuck in little mental boxes "How will it affect balance RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW???!@?!?!"
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You really don't see the problem with this suggestion? I'm being serious.
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Wow, the stupidity level of ArchonAlarion is through the fucking roof, might want to go check for any brain cancer unless you're just naturally fucking retarded and autistic as fuck.
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Really man?
I almost cannot believe that anyone could argue against this.
I almost cannot believe that anyone make this suggestion...
For many reasons, but first is what said Marathon, uber build.
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Marathon, why did you vote +1 on his Open Topic? :shock:
Is it reverse psychology ?
Anyway, a big -1. This is just.... putting this in Suggestion and not in Spam should even deserve you a little muted for a while. :rolleyes:
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All of you are stuck in little mental boxes "How will it affect balance RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW???!@?!?!"
Well... of course....
Are you not concerned with how it will effect Game Balance Right Now? Game Balance is rather important to me.
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Wow, the stupidity level of ArchonAlarion is through the fucking roof, might want to go check for any brain cancer unless you're just naturally fucking retarded and autistic as fuck.
Anything else you want to add to the discussion, Patty? Maybe some ideas or thoughts?
Yeah guys, I get that for the current balance situation this change would allow an overpowered build. I get it. I got it before I posted this thread.
The thing is, I don't care because I'm looking at the issue as if I was starting the game from scratch. Remember that this game is supposed to be in Beta. The benefits from shield skill could be reduced, or something similar.
The major issue I had with shields here is not really the skill itself being based on agility or strength, but the difficulty of shields being based on the shield skill, which is based on agility. I'm fine with the skill being based on agility I guess, but would prefer shields to be done like melee weapons in terms of difficulty being based on strength.
Like I said, all you guys ever care about in this god awful board is the current balance situation and you throw ad hominems around like confetti. I have no personal stake in shields, I just thought it would make the game more consistent, but thanks for all the insults and attacks on my intelligence.
If shields were based on strength from the beginning none of you would have complained, you'd have just gone along with it.
i guess I'll just repost this thread in a few months when agility builds are OP, so maybe I'll get some support. Balance is always changing everytime you add or change a feature. If you think balance cannot recover from this change in shields, fine, please explain why. I am open to counter-arguments, but now I'm pretty pissed and butthurt that everyone is hating on me for what i thought was a worthwhile suggestion.
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Yeah we would be complaining from the beginning. Already we have people complaining right now that AGIL is under powered and is not as important as a STR build (look at the skill required to do well with a 12/24 as opposed to a 24/12 build).
Our problem is that your suggestion would make the game unbalanced, and thus we are expecting you to include something that would re-balance it (which you did not).
If you create a balance problem with a suggestion, it is expected that you also include a solution to that balance problem.
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Yeah you are right, I should have done that from the beginning. Unfortunately, the other changes I'd want are pervasive and affect so many aspects of the game that i doubt I'll get any agreement on them.
The issue with shields being strength based is that it makes a high strength shielder build very powerful, okay. Making shields agility based forces shielders to divert points away from strength to prevent that happening. It's a shabby fix that doesn't make sense consistency-wise, but is effective for the current situation.
To rework this, each additional strength would have to give a smaller stat boost than the last, or the progression could remain linear with a decreased slope. This should probably be implemented anyways if strength really is OP.
Another fix, which I'd like to see with or without the shield change, would be if turning speed was agility based (I believe it is not). This would make it easier to get behind slow shielders and would make agility more worthwhile. Backpeddling should be slower too, making agility chars that much better.
In some ideal game, I'd imagine that mouse movement side to side would have a slight lag to turn the char, so your chars arms and head would move before their bodies would turn. You'd have to push the mouse a bit more persistently to turn the char.
*edit: I want to state again that in no way am I pushing this because of personal build preferences. One of my alts is a dedicated shielder, but so what? I actually prefer polearms anyways and am generally an agility whore because I like to zoom across the battlefield like a nut.
I'm a fanatical devotee of realism and consistency and would throw my favorite builds to the flames with scary maniacal glee if I thought it was better for the game.
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+1 .. I want to be pure strength 1h!!!!!!!! currently I can only afford to be 25/12
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Take a lap, Archon
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Any AUS players remember DIMOS before shields were agil based. Plate, steel shield, 33 str or more elite scim. All this before upkeep and with native stats. He was unstoppable and effectively unbreakable being l maybe level 45.
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No. I'm a sheilder and i disagree, it would ruin balance. I would have full black armor, steel shield, and the long espada and one shot most people with my 11 PS and absorb every attack that comes at me with either my shield, or 11 IF that makes me almost impervious to any forms of damage from lower level people.
Horrible suggestion.
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No, as it would completely and utterly unbalance the melee game.
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it should be half agi half strength, but that would be unbalanced, so NO!
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My answer to this suggestion : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOG5eqN8xg&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOG5eqN8xg&feature=youtu.be)
Noooooooo noooooooooooo noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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So should this game have any rhyme or reason at all, or are we just going to end up with a nonsensical hodgepodge to compensate for whatever the unbalance of the day is?
Shields are the only item in the game (besides horses) that are unlocked by an agility based skill. Conceptually, this is ridiculous, even though it is a cheap fix for preventing an unbalanced build.
Armor: Strength unlocks
Melee weapons: Powerstrike (str) buffs, Strength unlocks
Bows: Powerdraw (str) buffs and unlocks
Throwing: Powerthrow (str) buffs and unlocks
Crossbows: Strength unlocks
Shields: Shield (agi) buffs and unlocks
Now, there are two ways to consider the Shield skill relative to the other skills. We can view it like a "Power___" skill or as a sort of bastardized Weaponmaster solely for shields. If it is considered as a Power___ skill, then it should be strength based. Further, the Difficulty of shields may be determined either by strength (like melee weapons) or the shield skill (like ranged weapons). If it is considered a sort of Weaponmaster, then the skill SHOULD be agility based (like weaponmaster), but unlocking shields should be strength based.
I don't think the underlying issues of this game will ever be addressed, if they are simply compensated for by nonsensical and arbitrary skill requirements.
Fine, currently shields cannot be strength based due to balance issues. However, shields were a weapon (the effective wielding of which determined by strength) that historically had its benefits, drawbacks, and eventual disuse, which gives me reason to believe that if shields cannot be implemented correctly without resorting to nonsensical skill requirements, that something is innately wrong with attributes and skills. I'd like to see this issue fixed at some point.
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If it is considered a sort of Weaponmaster, then the skill SHOULD be agility based (like weaponmaster), but unlocking shields should be strength based.
You said it, it's like weaponmaster, because every shield is unlocked by your mastery on how to use it, you're right when you say that you need strength to hold a shield, but you need mastery to use it in the good way.
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maybe give bigger shields more weight so they cant move as fast?
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You said it, it's like weaponmaster, because every shield is unlocked by your mastery on how to use it, you're right when you say that you need strength to hold a shield, but you need mastery to use it in the good way.
Sure, but you can compare that argument for the reasoning behind melee weapons. Weapon mastery accounts for the character's subtle technique that the player cannot translate directly into the game via the mouse and keyboard. It is slightly redundant, but effectively narrows the scope of any single character's play style.
Melee weapons are unlocked by strength; the reasoning is that you can at least wield a weapon if you are strong enough, but without the subtle technique of those trained in its use.
This should apply to all worn/wieldable items, but I would be content if it at least applied to all melee items INCLUDING shields, which are really more like melee weapons than anything else.
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The thing about unlocking with strength is quite silly though if you are going for realism.
You don't need to press weights to be able to carry a sidesword, not even for a poleaxe. The only thing that is realistically unlocked is bows.
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The thing about unlocking with strength is quite silly though if you are going for realism.
You don't need to press weights to be able to carry a sidesword, not even for a poleaxe. The only thing that is realistically unlocked is bows.
I agree. Ideally, the formulas would go
strength - weight(*misc wpn factor) = weapon attack/block speed spd
weapon spd*weight(*misc wpn factor) = incoming dmg
Below a certain very low attack/swing spd threshold, the weapon would not be wieldable, but generally you could wield any weapon, just not well.
This would significantly change the stat system though, so I didn't mention it.
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make it dependant on both str and agi. Needs 3 of each to get one more shield skill.
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Any AUS players remember DIMOS before shields were agil based. Plate, steel shield, 33 str or more elite scim. All this before upkeep and with native stats. He was unstoppable and effectively unbreakable being l maybe level 45.
Shields have been always agi based...since mount and blade the original XD. Send me the phone number of your dealer....
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make it dependant on both str and agi. Needs 3 of each to get one more shield skill.
This would do what?
It only prevents agility shielders from spending more than 3 or 4 points in shieldskill.
Strength shielders are unaffected, as they allready are capped in their shieldskill cuz of their low agility.
Balanced builds don't feel it because they have multiples of 3 in both stats allready.
It doesn't really do anything but nerf agility shielders.