cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Severant on January 15, 2011, 03:11:12 am
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The two hand swing speed (2h and pole) should never be faster than a one hander. Thier advantages should be range and damage... not range, damage, and speed...
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All weapons are faster held with 2 hands than with 1 hand only.
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All weapons are faster held with 2 hands than with 1 hand only.
Realistic, yes. Balanced, yeah 3 advantages, balanced. :mrgreen:
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Yes. 2h and polearm are too fast for the damage they inflict. I'd say they need to be around 10-15% slower.
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When will people understand that as a 2-handed user, you sacrifice the ability to use a shield........
Shields maked you almost immune to ranged, and let you block as many people as you want at one time. So why should you have this advantage AND be able to swing faster then someone unencumbered by the shield and completely vulnerable to ranged fire.
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Nothing is stopping you from carrying a shield into combat whilst wielding 2h/polearms.
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When will people understand that as a 2-handed user, you sacrifice the ability to use a shield........
Shields maked you almost immune to ranged, and let you block as many people as you want at one time. So why should you have this advantage AND be able to swing faster then someone unencumbered by the shield and completely vulnerable to ranged fire.
Right, you have to manual block. In exchange for that, you get phenomenal reach, and great damage compared to people using a shield. You need the speed as well?
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Right, you have to manual block. In exchange for that, you get phenomenal reach, and great damage compared to people using a shield. You need the speed as well?
And you get near IMMUNITY (read it, IMMUNITY) to ALL RANGED ATTACKS. And the ability to block an UNLIMITED number of attacks at once. Damn you shielders and your selective reading.
Shielders are the killers of all things ranged, the bastions of strength and longevity, line holders, SUPPORT. The 2-handers are the GLASS(ish) CANNONS, high damage/low survivability.
That is all.
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And you get near IMMUNITY (read it, IMMUNITY) to ALL RANGED ATTACKS. And the ability to block and UNLIMITED number of attacks at once. Damn you shielders and your selective reading.
Shielders are the kills of all things ranged, the bastions of strength and longevity, line holders, SUPPORT. The 2-handers are the GLASS(ish) CANNONS, high damage/low survivability.
That is all.
Right, because shields don't break. And they also protect all over the body, including behind. In return, shielders get low damage, punch-range reach, and the joy of seeing a two hander hit your shield 3 times, then hit you again as you are in midswing, insta-killing you with their high damage dancing.
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I gotta agree here, as my main uses shields;
Their only point is avoiding archery.. but at this point one-handers have no chance versus a skilled two-hander, etc. They're too slow and they need to constantly run to follow them while the two hander is jumping around like a crazed rabbit.
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Considering that kickslash is no longer existent I find it hilarious that shield easymoders keep crying. You can facehug all you want now and go unpunished.
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Considering that kickslash is no longer existant I find it hilarious that shield easymoders keep crying. You can facehug all you want now and go unpunished.
Actually I've found kickslash to be quite effective simply because so many shielders facehug. But yeah most people are easy to get down with a bit of facehugging and a couple of feints.
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Lol?
All this?
All this i read here after being killed a lot of times by turtle that just outspammed me with 1hander? Cmon, you cannot be serious. We choose damage over survivability...and recently i was meeting quite a lot shielded guys, when i tried to attack those, after one or two hits to the shield before my next swing lands i get hit (yeah, i know, i should block and such, but still), u just hide there behind shield and hit from time to time.
With them military pick or some other weapons as a agi whore (yeah, shield rating needs agi, right?) you are anyways faster on swing than a hybrid 2h (feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but i got this feeling, atm 18str/20agi hybrid, and i feel like most of the turtles i meet are faster...).
But, i might be wrong, this all is based on personal experience :)
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You know 2handers would get double pay back in the day, because they had so much less defense without a shield.
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And you get near IMMUNITY (read it, IMMUNITY) to ALL RANGED ATTACKS. And the ability to block an UNLIMITED number of attacks at once. Damn you shielders and your selective reading.
LOL have you ever played this game? This is bullshit. Poleaxe wielder will spam me with attacks not allowing me to perform any counter strike, after 3-5hits my shield is evaporized and I am screwed.
Shielders are the killers of all things ranged, the bastions of strength and longevity, line holders, SUPPORT. The 2-handers are the GLASS(ish) CANNONS, high damage/low survivability.
I can do "something" only when I'm lvl ~30 and geared up like a tank. I get like 2:1, 3:1 kill/death ratio at best. Friend of mine, who has 2h sword runs half naked and gets 10:1 12:1 k/d ratio.
My usual tactic in combat is just standing with shield up, and awaiting more of my team players to flank enemy and backstab them.
You Sir, are posting crap.
Of course, I am not whining, because I am aware of my handicap, but knowing my few advantages helps me to perform well on battlefield, although I can't find any way to win a duel against a 2h mace/hammer - cant get into range and not get knocked over/killed by breakthrough shield attack. I know they're slower, but they run too fast in mail/leather armors.
Anyways except scoreboard shielders are big boost for battle outcome (I mean siege, cause no point for me entering battle server). In fact, shielders and pikemen seem to be only men always focused on objective, while other roam for free kills.
Btw. as a light armoured 2h swordsman your manoeuvrability is so decent, that you can just step back whilst I am swinging my funny short weapon, and hit me easly.
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When will people understand that as a 2-handed user, you sacrifice the ability to use a shield........
Shields maked you almost immune to ranged, and let you block as many people as you want at one time. So why should you have this advantage AND be able to swing faster then someone unencumbered by the shield and completely vulnerable to ranged fire.
+1
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As a 1h+shield user I have to respectfully disagree with most said by my brothers, sorry. A 1h+shield build in the wrong hands can be unstoppable. + You have to face it guys were a more defensive class we have high defense but low offense get it?
Pro tips:
Only get as much shield skill for the shield you want to use - don't crutch on it too much. Learning to manual block even a little bit can save your life.
Only get enough str for equip/ps you want
Convert points into agi - not too much don't sacrifice your other skills just to do this
Use foot work - Twist into your blows, get into the best position for your strikes, get at their backs ect ect.. You'll be amazed at how many strikes Ive landed even when the enemy raised their strike before mine.
FEINT AND TIME YOUR BLOWS!!
Do all this and you should do okay as a 1h user.
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As a 1h+shield user I have to respectfully disagree with most said by my brothers, sorry. A 1h+shield build in the wrong hands can be unstoppable. + You have to face it guys were a more defensive class we have high defense but low offense get it?
Pro tips:
Only get as much shield skill for the shield you want to use - don't crutch on it too much. Learning to manual block even a little bit can save your life.
Only get enough str for equip/ps you want
Convert points into agi - not too much don't sacrifice your other skills just to do this
Use foot work - Twist into your blows, get into the best position for your strikes, get at their backs ect ect.. You'll be amazed at how many strikes Ive landed even when the enemy raised their strike before mine.
FEINT AND TIME YOUR BLOWS!!
Do all this and you should do okay as a 1h user.
QFT.
There are many good shielders out there. Spectate them when dead, you'll see that this class can be played very well and a good shielder can definitely take out a "spamming" polearm or two-handed user.
The only thing I would suggest is maybe the speed on shields is generally a bit to low, but still, many good shielders make due and have great K/Ds, especially when fighting 3-4 enemies at once.
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When will people understand that as a 2-handed user, you sacrifice the ability to use a shield........
Shields maked you almost immune to ranged, and let you block as many people as you want at one time. So why should you have this advantage AND be able to swing faster then someone unencumbered by the shield and completely vulnerable to ranged fire.
Read this 5 times in a row.
Now stop fucking whining all over again and learn from good sword&board players. This is becoming annoying already
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Lol you shielders who whine instead of learning how to play your class will always be EZ to kill with my 2h, I feint once and swing and I hit you because you think I missed, I do it again and you're dead.. Why do you even have the shield if you're not going to block at least once with it?
Any decent shielder will kill me in 2-3 hits easy and will be able to feint out my blocks because I'm not super skilled at manual blocking.
On top of this if they don't want to kill me they can back peddle to their team mates while I try and break their shield.
Learn to time your attacks for different opponents, watch good shielders play, eventually you'll get it.
But if you keep whining, you will continue to fall to the ole feint and hit trick that we all love to use on shielders because they're so impatient even though they have all the time in the world.
A good tactic I've noticed a lot of shielders using that works on me is taking the initiative and attacking me first while I try and do my feint and hit trick, which then fails because I feinted into their swing.
Anyways Good luck on your travels
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I hate the feint trick, always fall for it. Fortunately (for me), most 2hers are spammers that never feint nor block, and i don't have problems with those, usually, except with the agi stackers who swing so fast that their second hit seems to come even before the first one was blocked :mrgreen:. They are rare though.
Don't misunderstand me here, I think spam is a big problem, but not because it affects me personally. Just the fact that a spammer can easily reach top10, while other players have to work hard to get there bothers me.
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I hate the feint trick, always fall for it. Fortunately (for me), most 2hers are spammers that never feint nor block, and i don't have problems with those, usually, except with the agi stackers who swing so fast that their second hit seems to come even before the first one was blocked :mrgreen:. They are rare though.
Don't misunderstand me here, I think spam is a big problem, but not because it affects me personally. Just the fact that a spammer can easily reach top10, while other players have to work hard to get there bothers me.
u are aware they stripped all of our speed away but thats getting off topic if "YOU" fall for a feint its "YOUR "fault not trying to be mean but its the truth i fall for em too once in awhile and if u block u will be able to return a swing if u time it properly and if you get killed by spam which everyone does some more than others can easily be dealt with block and swing or change your weapon
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Faint tricks are not class related. Also lack of ability to swing in return due to ping.
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Just because I hate feints doesn't mean I want to do something against them, far from it. You are right that I'm lacking skill in this area, and it's okay that I die when I fall for them.
I think I'd be better reacting to feints if there were less spammers and more feinters. Right now, feints are so rare that, although it always enrages me, I can take these deaths and still have a good K:D ratio.
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People who die to spam in the current patch are just noobs. With the current wpf patch, it is impossible to reach a point where an opponent will be unable to return an attack regardless of what weapon they use. The only exceptions to this rule would be the comical weapons like boulder on a stick or looney-toons axes, which have sub 80 attack speed.
To all those complaining about attack speed: sorry, but your timing is terrible. 1h attacks are just as fast as 2 handed weapons.
These are based off of all my experience on the following characters: 2h polearm user, 1h/shield user, thrower, and an archer.
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As a shielder, the only real problem I see is a prolonged stun in the moment of shieldbreaking, combined with a lack of "drop shield" button. For that reason, I binded "holster weapon" to the mouse, in order to drop shield slightly faster when needed. Of cource, this is not much of a problem when facing a bladed or blunt weaponry, but axes, especially wonderfast elegant poleaxes, which utterly destroy a shield in 2-3 rapid sideswings, and than finish off stunned opponent.
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Dunecat: when I use my shielder and I see an axe-weilder coming up against me, I put my shield away immediately and just manual block. They trade off stats on their weapon in order to get that bonus to shields modifier. Its a trade-off to be a class's natural counter.
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What does putting points into shield over 6 do for you? Does it still increase the area your shield can protect? Or did they totally remove that in the patch?
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What does putting points into shield over 6 do for you? Does it still increase the area your shield can protect? Or did they totally remove that in the patch?
They couldn't remove it if they wanted to. Its hard-coded into M&B.
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The axes are not as much of an oddity (and problem) as a stun, which I mentioned, is. Usually, I can't manual block for a second or so, after my shield is broken, and survive only with support of teammates or if I backpedal faster/earlier than the opponent.
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Thats a feature dune, not a balance issue or problem. A player is supposed to enter stun mode after their shield is destroyed. The game is designed this way to setup 2h axe users as the designated counter for sword n board.
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Try this.
Go on the duel server, and get a cooperative partner, tell them to stand still and not block.
Walk into them until your noses are touching and you can't walk forward any more.
Stand completely still, and swing your 2h sword.
Full damage, no penalty for face-hugging with a 5 foot long 2h sword.
In fact, 1h weapons are much more likely to glance from being too close, this has to do with the animations, not the damage.
So, if you weren't too annoyed by the format of this post to finish it, I hope you found this piece of information interesting. (It's a misconception that 2h weapons are useless in super close range, and it can not be considered a disadvantage for them.)
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All weapons are faster held with 2 hands than with 1 hand only.
2 handed weapons are NOT faster that one handed weapons, and this is a game balance anyway. The reason 2 handers are slower is a wider sweep, like 3 times the weight, and you put your whole body into a 2 handed swing... 1 handers are faster but less power. Maybe you should take a 50 pound weight and swing it around a couple of times and see how fast you are.
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The argument is bollocks anyway. Of course all weapons are faster when being swung with two hands. However, we are not talking about handling the same weapon with one or two hands. Learn logic.
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The argument is bollocks anyway. Of course all weapons are faster when being swung with two hands. However, we are not talking about handling the same weapon with one or two hands. Learn logic.
swings per minute are not faster, yes the velocity is but the momentum carries the weapon farther and takes longer to bring around for another swing. So LOGICALLY and REALISTICLLY 1 handers are faster when counting swings per second... not velocity....
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Not quiet the way two handed swords work Severant.
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Ok then, another proposal.
Why not buff 1h damage or debuff the 2h one?
Currently 2h/pole have the advantage of speed, range and damage while 1h has arrow protection (well sometimes, if the enemies have a bad aim and don´t shoot in a bad angle).
Yeah i know "But in real life you can hit harder if you use two hands!!!" and in real life the shields dont have twice of their weight and you can attack while blocking.
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In real life ashtreys are on tables not used as shields too.
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Hey, don't mock the ragged girl's ashtray, i mean buckler! She looted many dead bodies to get it...
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ZOMG quote button sorry...
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Ok then, another proposal.
Why not buff 1h damage or debuff the 2h one?
Currently 2h/pole have the advantage of speed, range and damage while 1h has arrow protection (well sometimes, if the enemies have a bad aim and don´t shoot in a bad angle).
Yeah i know "But in real life you can hit harder if you use two hands!!!" and in real life the shields dont have twice of their weight and you can attack while blocking.
you can't use the no range protection excuse with 2hand/pole... i seee TONS of 2 handers / pole arms pull out a shield, close, then pull out 2 handers/ poles and preceed to spam ppl to death. Quit using that excuse pls.
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In real life ashtreys are on tables not used as shields too.
I´m sure i can finds some images in the internet.
Anyway, i used some other shields, but most of them are crap.
I did not want to use tower shields, because they don´t fit to my build theme, so i started with the elite cav shield. It was nice to catch some arrows with it, but it sucks in melee combat (ok, as i had shield skill 10 it was not that bad).
Later i switched to the steel shield. It offers a great protection and can take some hits, but it is so awfull slow and heavy.
The huscarl was no option, too huge and overused but then i got my buckler, a neat shield.
But now it is more a luxury item, quite expensive and offers only minimal protection against ranged and melee attacks.
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The more i try and play as a 1h/Shield, the more I think that 2h and polearms are way too fast and need to be slowed down 15% or more. It's not the swing speed itself but the fact that it can ready for each consecutive swing too quickly. Even recently, I've run into a number of occasions where some 2h/Pole wielder has struck my shield and I simply cannot get my weapon to counter attack ready fast enough before his weapon is digging into me. This shouldn't be the case. The "reset" timer should be lengthened for the larger weapons otherwise, they'll remain OP.
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All shielders seem to forget that you have a huge advantage: you have a huge fucking shield you can hide behind with only a right click and block as many people as you like. We, the mean 2H spammers actually need to manual block in order to survive and it's quite hard when facing more than 1 enemy. 90% of the 1h+shield users are dead 2 seconds after their shield breaks because you can't manual block, now imagine having to manual block all the time and think twice before whining.
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I've done it. Manual blocking is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Shield users are at a disadvantage.
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There's also the issue of shield use not being represented properly. A swing from a long lever like any 2hand weapon could be shield smashed by a competent user, to force the 2hand fighter to turn his hips back into the swing a bit and be exposed for a quick stab or swing to one side.
And on the 2h swing arc issue, these weapons are, again, long levers. Think about a halberd. If the halberdier is inside the range of a 1hand-and-shielder's weapon, then any block or parry will land much closer to the pivot point on the haft, the users hands. That means the swing arc would get stopped much earlier, which for the 2h wielder is the most exposed time. That's when their hips are turned the most to create the power for their strike.
I don't know if any of the above is necessarily implementable in the game, but it is what happens irl.
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If someone could gather all the "2h weapon speed" topics and sticky them that would be nice. Infact, make a sticky for each type and sticky it. This is starting to get annoying.
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If you do not understand the game mechanics
Start with rock, paper, scissors
and if you still don't understand it
quit playing because you are whining.
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If you do not understand the game mechanics
Start with rock, paper, scissors
and if you still don't understand it
quit playing because you are whining.
:lol:
Love the last part.
C-RPG and Warband aren't true rock-paper-scissors games though. An archer can take out everyone still. A cavalry player can take out everyone. An infantry can take out everyone. Its just slightly more difficult in some situations to do so. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is setup in such a way. This is also why I didn't buy SC2 after the beta.
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I dont see the problem, 2H cant outspam ppl that have a bit of agi and a decent speed weapon. I used a balanced katana with 21 agi and 159 wpf and I couldnt outspam a shield user. Outspamming as in, attacking so fast that he cant counterattack me even after a block. If you get spammed its due to your own fault. 2H dont have a speed advantage, only the katana does and it has shit range, but is stylish as hell. No 2h has the advantage on reach damage and speed over other weapons.
I've done it. Manual blocking is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Shield users are at a disadvantage.
Most people dont think it is, otherwise I wouldnt get as much kills while im only mediocre at manual blocking.
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No 2h has the advantage on reach damage and speed over other weapons.
Wrong.
Sarranid Cavalry Sword 5308 weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 95
weapon length 105
swing damage 33, cut
thrust damage 19 pierce
Longsword 5123 weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 98
weapon length 106
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Secondary Mode
Longsword is cheaper, heavier (better for chambering), longer, swifter and does more dmg. Better in every aspect.
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Wrong.
Sarranid Cavalry Sword 5308 weight 1.35
requirement 8
spd rtng 95
weapon length 105
swing damage 33, cut
thrust damage 19 pierce
Longsword 5123 weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 98
weapon length 106
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Secondary Mode
Seriously, use your brain and tell me why you think that the Longsword swings faster than the 1h sword.
That 1h sword is length 105 being swung in one hand weight 1.35
That 2h sword is length 106 being swung in two hands weight 1.8
lol ?
Gaaahhh that Rextard guy rage quit from the duel server because he doesn't understand how to block feints and then he posted on this, thats awesome, I hope shielders don't read this and give up hope because it's not as hard as every one is making it out to be.
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Anyways, learn to play some more, I did fine with my shielder when I was a shielder if anything it was easier because I was crap at manual blocking.
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Seriously, use your brain and tell me why you think that the Longsword swings faster than the 1h sword.
That 1h sword is length 105 being swung in one hand weight 1.35
That 2h sword is length 106 being swung in two hands weight 1.8
lol ?
Gaaahhh that Rextard guy rage quit from the duel server because he doesn't understand how to block feints and then he posted on this, thats awesome, I hope shielders don't read this and give up hope because it's not as hard as every one is making it out to be.
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Anyways, learn to play some more, I did fine with my shielder when I was a shielder if anything it was easier because I was crap at manual blocking.
I ask you a question, why shielder can't block with shield using one hand, and attacking in the same time using his weapon ?
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I ask you a question, why shielder can't block with shield using one hand, and attacking in the same time using his weapon ?
Because game mechanics are silly :(
I'm just tired of people complaining that One hand + Shield is the IMPOSSIBLE CLASS TO PLAY OMGZZZ
I started as a One hand + Shield because I figured since I sucked at manual blocking this would be the best way to go and I did great, I eventually got bored of it and decided that my blocking skills needed to be tested and chose the realm of 2h, good shielders will always pwn me because my katana won't break there shields and I will only be able to hit them when they let me, by lowering their shield to attack after I feint.
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I ask you a question, why shielder can't block with shield using one hand, and attacking in the same time using his weapon ?
Why does the guy continue to fight after being hit to the bare head?
Why can't I break your bone through your shield while using a big badass axe/mace? (try this, it hurts!)
Why can't I hit the shielder by striking above/below his shield?
It's called game mechanics.
I'm rolling a shielder at the moment. I doublt I would play using this character after leveling, since 1h+shield playstyle does not provide any significant challenges to me. So, it's no fun for me to play it. And if you are getting outspammed by any type of weapons, that's because of your ping/your build/your personal skills, not because of the playstyle.
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Why does the guy continue to fight after being hit to the bare head?
Why can't I break your bone through your shield while using a big badass axe/mace? (try this, it hurts!)
Why can't I hit the shielder by striking above/below his shield?
It's called game mechanics.
I'm rolling a shielder at the moment. I doublt I would play using this character after leveling, since 1h+shield playstyle does not provide any significant challenges to me. So, it's no fun for me to play it. And if you are getting outspammed by any type of weapons, that's because of your ping/your build/your personal skills, not because of the playstyle.
I don't get outspammed, just it's really hard to feint using 1h + shield due to its slow speed. This lead to 2h opponents who have to do only basic blocking as feints are risky. 2h however dont have such problem, they can feint freely at least once all the time if they don't screw footwork.
I roll hybrid 1h/polearm, so my character does not have most optimized build.
Shield is not very fun to use in combat, but i like it's look, so i play it. And it's not really great against 2h players either.
You can hurt through the shield using most 2h maces.
Also, i would like some more advanced damage system, not plain hp. System that include injuries etc.
I do just fine with my character.
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There's a important lesson for hybrids to learn, ur versatility comes at a price if u split your wpf even with the softcap you'll never beat a purist melee especially one who forgoes skills like powerthrow or blockcrutches err I mean shields
Lobbying for ur thrustspam plus shield/onehander hybrid comes off as trolling to the nth degree
Reroll pure one hander and fight for as many hours as the posts u made then come tell us your findings
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There's a important lesson for hybrids to learn, ur versatility comes at a price if u split your wpf even with the softcap you'll never beat a purist melee especially one who forgoes skills like powerthrow or blockcrutches err I mean shields
Lobbying for ur thrustspam plus shield/onehander hybrid comes off as trolling to the nth degree
Reroll pure one hander and fight for as many hours as the posts u made then come tell us your findings
75 polearm skill.
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All weapons are faster held with 2 hands than with 1 hand only.
Butterknife.
Switchblade.
Rapier.
Dagger.
Pistol.
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Here's the solution:
Give 2handers a really big nerf - reduce speed and damage by a lot. This will solve several problems:
1) People who use 2handers but just spam and can't manual block will stop using them
2) People will stop whining about 2handers for a while
3) People who use 2handers because they enjoy it more than anything else will still use them, and probably still kill all the whiners because the whiners clearly don't know how to use a shield (press the right mouse button and it blocks).
4) This will lead to more fun for people who enjoy playing 2handers, and make the whiners feel like they've won, so next time a 2hand user kills them they can blame something else other than the 2hander weapon stats - maybe they were eating a biscuit and so had a hard time fighting.
Item balance team - go ahead and take 2-3 points of speed and 5-10 points of damage off all the 2handers. It won't make any difference.
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Item balance team - go ahead and take 2-3 points of speed and 5-10 points of damage off all the 2handers.
Leave damage where it is. Hell, leave speed where it is for that matter. Nothing really needs to be done to 2hers. The disparity comes from shields, and that's why 1hers are so slow in comparison (and why only the 100+ speed swords really get the most attention from the majority of 1hers to try and overcome this).
IE: 2hers are fine, fix the REAL problem (shields).
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Leave damage where it is. Hell, leave speed where it is for that matter. Nothing really needs to be done to 2hers. The disparity comes from shields, and that's why 1hers are so slow in comparison (and why only the 100+ speed swords really get the most attention from the majority of 1hers to try and overcome this).
IE: 2hers are fine, fix the REAL problem (shields).
Nah, 2 handers deal too much damage, really. Do greatswords need something over 42 damage to own ? No, 37 would be better.
But yeah, fix the shields.
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A lot of these issues would be corrected if simply chadz would decrease the agility and run speed more, with an increase in weight. Right now, it doesn't matter if I use leather armor or plate... I still run the same speed and my weapon speed is nearly the same also. This needs to be fixed.
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Here's the solution:
Give 2handers a really big nerf - reduce speed and damage by a lot. This will solve several problems:
1) People who use 2handers but just spam and can't manual block will stop using them
2) People will stop whining about 2handers for a while
3) People who use 2handers because they enjoy it more than anything else will still use them, and probably still kill all the whiners because the whiners clearly don't know how to use a shield (press the right mouse button and it blocks).
4) This will lead to more fun for people who enjoy playing 2handers, and make the whiners feel like they've won, so next time a 2hand user kills them they can blame something else other than the 2hander weapon stats - maybe they were eating a biscuit and so had a hard time fighting.
Item balance team - go ahead and take 2-3 points of speed and 5-10 points of damage off all the 2handers. It won't make any difference.
You sir, just made my list of "people who couldn't balance a game if their life depended on it."
10 damage nerf on two hands? And then you have the balls to say it won't make any difference? Tell you what, why don't we do a special patch, just for you, where your weapon loses 10 points of damage and see how much of a difference it makes.
BTW: I play all the classes: sword and shield, polearm, archer, throwing. Don't go crying bias to me.
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Playing a 2h is already hard enough. They only get on the top of the scoreboard if you don't know how to kill them. When i have a 2h or a polearm spammer on the opposing team killing half my team i go and kill him, if i have a shield i engage him and lure him into others (he can block only 1 attack at a time, noobs! just hit him with 2 attacks and he's dead), if i'm using a thrower he's dead meat (i will follow him and as soon as he stops i start throwing), if i use a 2h i charge into him and duel him, even if i lose i normally get at least 1 shot off (which means he has less than half hp left).
Some 2h spammers are crazy, so a speedcap can be acceptable, for all weapons (1h, 2h or polearm alike). This is what you see in most games for balance, no matter what you do, you cannot swing faster than the cap. So i can agree with the OP but not with all the shit people have suggested later.
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I play a 1h/shield, a Heavy Broad One Handed Battle Axe (Will heirloom it to maximum if I can) Huscarl's Round Shield. I am pretty good, there are alot better then me but I am not a pushover if you know what I mean, usually top 5 on the score board and my styler is usually fighting 3-4 people at the time as it is easier for me to handle crowd control then 1v1.
1h/shield is very simple and at the same time very hard. You can block by hitting RMB, sure easy enough. but then --->PURE<--- 2h and 2hpole has on occasion spammed me so fast that I could not strike back, I know my build, I know the foot work and the range of my VS most other (popular) weapons and I do not suck. A skilled (not a super duper grinder with a laser guided homing 2h) 2h will always beat me 7 times out of 10. Why? because they block until they break my shield and then kill me (2-3 hits) when I am stun locked... and no you can not remove or drop your shield because it takes 1 sec, 1 sec means you get hit.
2h and 2h pole should have increased DMG and (pole more then 2h) and be slower.
Watch Zengrim or Gnjus if you want to see really good 1h/shield guys, there are allot more but I'm off now =P
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Imo u lot just need to practice more. before just retiring i had 7 ath 5 ps and 140 2 hander with a katana and was still getting beat by shielders with 1 handers, but able to beat other 2 handers, maybe thats because i need to practice at "spamming" if thats wat u want to call, it in my view its called aggresive attacking, but thats just my view of it
x
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It's funny because almost all the people I see topping the leaderboards are 1h+shield users ie Guard Cain, Balb, Dan_ATS etc etc
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Playing a 2h is already hard enough. They only get on the top of the scoreboard if you don't know how to kill them. When i have a 2h or a polearm spammer on the opposing team killing half my team i go and kill him, if i have a shield i engage him and lure him into others (he can block only 1 attack at a time, noobs! just hit him with 2 attacks and he's dead), if i'm using a thrower he's dead meat (i will follow him and as soon as he stops i start throwing), if i use a 2h i charge into him and duel him, even if i lose i normally get at least 1 shot off (which means he has less than half hp left).
Some 2h spammers are crazy, so a speedcap can be acceptable, for all weapons (1h, 2h or polearm alike). This is what you see in most games for balance, no matter what you do, you cannot swing faster than the cap. So i can agree with the OP but not with all the shit people have suggested later.
Phyrex, Cyber, Bjord, Siiem ? Don'y you see them at the top ? Wow.
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Phyrex, Cyber, Bjord, Siiem ? Don'y you see them at the top ? Wow.
They are people who are naturally good, they use their builds to their talents and not as crutch.
They can block so why not play 2hander? They would dominate just as much with 1hander, polearms, cav.
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They are people who are naturally good, they use their builds to their talents and not as crutch.
They can block so why not play 2hander? They would dominate just as much with 1hander, polearms, cav.
Neither Cyber nor Bjord don't dominate as 1h. I didn't seen Siiem and Phyrex as 1h. Siiem did just fine as 2h polearm (and cav), but this class is not really that different from 2h.
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Neither Cyber nor Bjord don't dominate as 1h. I didn't seen Siiem and Phyrex as 1h. Siiem did just fine as 2h polearm (and cav), but this class is not really that different from 2h.
You know that fencer is (was?) bjord's 1h alt? Never saw him on a battle server but on the duel server he did just fine. And what about paul, me, you, some of the mercs who's names I forget. All capable of topping scoreboards as 1hs.
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IMO 2hander dosen't need a nerf. If anything does it's shields, i personally manage to top scoreboards with 1h/shield all the time. Really, It is a lot easier to face multiple enemies with shield, you dont have to worry about manual blocking (some players would be absoloutely useless without shields) and you can just laugh at projectiles. Really, in the battle these things outweigh more dmg, speed and reach.
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You know that fencer is (was?) bjord's 1h alt? Never saw him on a battle server but on the duel server he did just fine. And what about paul, me, you, some of the mercs who's names I forget. All capable of topping scoreboards as 1hs.
Yes i know, he didn't dominated battle. Urist do fine with everything, you did fine before patch, i don't recall playing with you post patch, really. I don't top scoreboard all the time, yes, quite often, but even less often than i did in Native. Some merc top it from time to time, there are many other 1h users who do it.
Well, the point of post tortoro replied to was to show that many 2h user top the scoreboard. Like many throwers, polearms, cavalry, archers and xbow (least often, i didn't seen many xbow oriented builds lately).
IMO 2hander dosen't need a nerf. If anything does it's shields, i personally manage to top scoreboards with 1h/shield all the time. Really, It is a lot easier to face multiple enemies with shield, you dont have to worry about manual blocking (some players would be absoloutely useless without shields) and you can just laugh at projectiles. Really, in the battle these things outweigh more dmg, speed and reach.
Shields don't need a nerf, they need change. I would love to see manual block (combined with blocking with mesh, like on left/right swings blocked by opposite block with good footwork) for them. It's stupid that it blocks everything, and getting rusty with manual block when using shield that don't break hurts and make me sad. Also i would love to have lesser range, damage and speed gap, so i can feint freely against 2h and Poles.
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IMO 2hander dosen't need a nerf. If anything does it's shields, i personally manage to top scoreboards with 1h/shield all the time. Really, It is a lot easier to face multiple enemies with shield, you dont have to worry about manual blocking (some players would be absoloutely useless without shields) and you can just laugh at projectiles. Really, in the battle these things outweigh more dmg, speed and reach.
Back when everyone had plate and ridiculous amounts of wpf/agi it was the other way around, with a 2h being far more usefull than 1h+shield. These days with the upkeep, the lighter armours and the sheer amount of crap flying through the air 1H+shield is a far beter option for battle. Just like native :|
Yes i know, he didn't dominated battle. Urist do fine with everything, you did fine before patch, i don't recall playing with you post patch, really. I don't top scoreboard all the time, yes, quite often, but even less often than i did in Native. Some merc top it from time to time, there are many other 1h users who do it.
Well, the point of post tortoro replied to was to show that many 2h user top the scoreboard. Like many throwers, polearms, cavalry, archers and xbow (least often, i didn't seen many xbow oriented builds lately).
Shields don't need a nerf, they need change. I would love to see manual block (combined with blocking with mesh, like on left/right swings blocked by opposite block with good footwork) for them. It's stupid that it blocks everything, and getting rusty with manual block when using shield that don't break hurts and make me sad. Also i would love to have lesser range, damage and speed gap, so i can feint freely against 2h and Poles.
Aha, seems I misunderstood you, but yeah, any class is capable of topping boards, just depends on who's playing. I too would like to see some changes to shield mechanics, but I doubt the cRPG team will be able to pull that off.
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You sir, just made my list of "people who couldn't balance a game if their life depended on it."
10 damage nerf on two hands? And then you have the balls to say it won't make any difference? Tell you what, why don't we do a special patch, just for you, where your weapon loses 10 points of damage and see how much of a difference it makes.
BTW: I play all the classes: sword and shield, polearm, archer, throwing. Don't go crying bias to me.
Do you really have such a list or was it a rhetorical device? (I'll be quite impressed if you really have that list, I want a screenshot :))
I don't get how 10 damage would make a difference. You'd need maybe one more hit to kill someone, right? So just hit them one more time...
Part of my point is that too many people play this game not for customisation but to have the best weapons. The trends really irritate me - for example this throwing weapon trend has happened before - last time the database was reset, afterwards everyone went throwing. And stuff like the calculator for determining the best character (no offence to the creator), and the constant threads asking how best to spec a character. Like when archers figured out the PD exploit and all went plated (and it had to be nerfed).
Which is why groups like the ninjas and staffmen are the best clans/guilds or whatever - they play so their characters look cool and are fun to play, even if their gear is crap in terms of stats. When the tear/cookie swords were just introduced, everyone used them because they had the best stats.
Maybe I was being a little ridiculous, but sometimes I think a really big nerf in 2handers (focusing on them because it's the weapon I have most fun using) would be really good because it'd stop people using them (and according to almost every statistic thats been released on weapon use, they are the most used weapon) just for their stats, and because people think its easy.
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Back when everyone had plate and ridiculous amounts of wpf/agi it was the other way around, with a 2h being far more usefull than 1h+shield. These days with the upkeep, the lighter armours and the sheer amount of crap flying through the air 1H+shield is a far beter option for battle. Just like native :|
Yeah, amount of flying shit is unbelievable. I launched native few weeks ago, and it was like WTF!!! In native it's even more of it flying around.
I would like to see it decreased somehow, or make more skill dependent. There are many shooter games around and nearly no melee games. IF shooting would be fixed, 2h and Polearms could be balanced against 1h (only IF shield will be fixed, with current shields it would be not really fair).
Aha, seems I misunderstood you, but yeah, any class is capable of topping boards, just depends on who's playing. I too would like to see some changes to shield mechanics, but I doubt the cRPG team will be able to pull that off.
Well, they managed to fix forcefields, they added friendly bumps, they added spawned items like siege shields or ladders or healing tents and catapults and towers ... changing the way how shields work might be possible - some of those fixed things were also considered hardcoded.
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When will people understand that as a 2-handed user, you sacrifice the ability to use a shield........
Shields maked you almost immune to ranged, and let you block as many people as you want at one time. So why should you have this advantage AND be able to swing faster then someone unencumbered by the shield and completely vulnerable to ranged fire.
Just one problem with this:
Ranged have been nerfed in several ways lately, hence suriveability for 2h have increased a lot since there are fewer ranged and the ones still around is less accurate. My guess is that someone neglected/underestimated the secondary effects of nerfing ranged classes.
My observation is: Less archers and a shitload of 2h with mauls and poleaxes that hardly where used before...
Before 2h had a hard time with ranged, these days they don't. In my opinion 2h should have a hard time with ranged just as archers have a hard time with infantry in general and infantry have a hard time with cavalry and so on...
I don't like ranged with laser sights but I feel that they were hit a bit too hard this time around and tell you what I don't play as an archer.
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Just one problem with this:
Ranged have been nerfed in several ways lately, hence suriveability for 2h have increased a lot since there are fewer ranged and the ones still around is less accurate. My guess is that someone neglected/underestimated the secondary effects of nerfing ranged classes.
My observation is: Less archers and a shitload of 2h with mauls and poleaxes that hardly where used before...
Before 2h had a hard time with ranged, these days they don't. In my opinion 2h should have a hard time with ranged just as archers have a hard time with infantry in general and infantry have a hard time with cavalry and so on...
I don't like ranged with laser sights but I feel that they were hit a bit too hard this time around and tell you what I don't play as an archer.
Do you even play this game? Ranged spam is just as bad as always, it just swiched from archers to throwing.
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The biggest advantage of Shield is that Throwing Weapons can be used with shield => 2handers are dead / half dead until they reach you.
The biggest problem of shield users is not that they are underpowered it is that they do play like they are underpowered.
One example:
I am wearing a Maul 70cm long 86 Speed. I will crush through your shield every time i hit you from above. After the first time i killed a shield
user this way they really should know this and dont try to block me. Instead they should try to attack before i can forcing me to be more careful
when im going to attack... but 75% of shieldusers do turtle every time i met them.
25% learn and then have a good chance in killing me. Those are 1h/Shield players who will have good stats.
If your question is why 2h/Pole get more kills? Because they always start attacks. They always get the momentum of the fight.
The first thing a shield user is doing is he sees a 2hander is blocking.
If you 1h/Shield-Guys would be more aggressive you would get more kills but that is what the majority of you is lacking.
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a good shield user will own , only prob is that poles seem to swing faster then 2handers for the rest its pretty nicely ballanced atm imo
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There is so many examples of good 1H + Board players...
I made one a while ago(after patch), mostly playing without a shield even.
Why? Simply bcoz its as playable as 2h if u know how to do it.
@Punisher +1 Ranged fire is as disgusting as it was prepatch
@Camaris +1 Shielders are mostly way to passive.
Offensive 1h play is the way to go.
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Shield user doesn't even need more kills to be effective.
You can save a lot of teammates by catching ranged fire or taking pressure of your allies. If I'm fighting with a good 2h vs 2 enemies I can just try to get the attention of the most dangerous enemy, shield means I can focus on staying alive really easily, he can kill the easier one and then we backstab the other. Yeah, isn't visible on my score sheets, but it helps win rounds. Often the dangerous enemy for the 2h is also a ranged player, so it can get a few cheap kills. So as tactical tool shield beat 2h by a long way imo.
For individual fights vs 2h swing speed is entirely not a problem. I can swing just as fast, unless he has a much higher level than me. What is problematic is running tricks like running to the side which adds to his speed or running a backwards circle so he is out of my range on my turn and can swing without blocking again. Or feint faster. Yeah, shield slows you down. Simply means you have to change your fighting style. Be cautious with attacks, as long as you have your shield, it is simply your mistake if you make an attack and he hits you first. If you attack on the right opportunity with the right attack you will hit first, and many 2h can't block it. If they do, well they will focus on defense more and you have more leeway to focus on attack make feints etc. Always try to keep the pressure up, though. Even best 2h will be in trouble if they don't carry anti shield weapon. Yep, this fighting style means your shield breaks faster, but it's just like ammo for archers, if it allows you to kill 2 enemies (or stall a very dangerous foe for the round) before you are only 1h fighter it was money well spent.
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How are the twohanders and polearms supposed to counter attack if they are 15 percent slower than now?
Than onehanders could outspam everyone once they close in and it would be unplayable.
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If your question is why 2h/Pole get more kills? Because they always start attacks. They always get the momentum of the fight.
The first thing a shield user is doing is he sees a 2hander is blocking.
If you 1h/Shield-Guys would be more aggressive you would get more kills but that is what the majority of you is lacking.
Heh, the shielders that try to start attacks are the ones that my war cleaver cut in half before they get in range of me. Shielders for the most part have to approach ready to block as 2hers (with animation range bonuses) can cleave them in twain before that 1h'd weapon is even remotely close enough to connect.
Shield user doesn't even need more kills to be effective.
You can save a lot of teammates by catching ranged fire or taking pressure of your allies.... Yeah, isn't visible on my score sheets, but it helps win rounds.... if it allows you to kill 2 enemies (or stall a very dangerous foe for the round) before you are only 1h fighter it was money well spent.
Well the game has a scoreboard so sadly that's the only thing that matters. No I'm not being sarcastic, the score really is the only thing that matters. So that's why noone wants to be the "support" guy while the 2hers/polearm guys run around with really high scores stroking e-peens in a large e-circle jerk proclaiming themselves skilled whilst everyone else is a nub/scrub. Yeah 1h/shielders can do quite well, but the players behind them would do better as a 2her/thrower (or polearm/thrower) than a 1h/shielder. I barely play mine anymore because I can't stand the slow response time anymore. I get far better scores on my 2her/thrower and I use the war cleaver, which is slow and unbalanced, yet it still reacts and moves faster and more fluidly than a 1h does when used with a shield (and it fucking 1-hits most people which is nice).
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which is slow and unbalanced, yet it still reacts and moves faster and more fluidly than a 1h does when used with a shield
dont you see that as a problem.
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dont you see that as a problem.
That's irrelevant. The majority of players are 2h/polearm users and they don't see it as a problem.
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OMG OMFG
again again and again,
I'm getting pissed of you bloody whiners,
2h advantage is good speed, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged
1h advantage no manual block and not vulnerable for any ranged, weakness they are whiners cause they dont have skills for manual block
polearm advantage very fast side slash, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged (except when using a shield with it)
you shielders are just a band of whining jerks who cant manual block for a shite,
and if you can manual block dont whine youve the choice to become 2h or polearm,
when you think 1h is shit why become a 1h???@#@#
and limit the 2h swing speed???
come on
the polearm swing is even faster
greetz, Berend
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The only wish for shields is that there was more variety I mean I like the huscarl heavy board steel for the high coverage vs ranged attacks plus some speed as.long as u have a hyper quick side sword etc
But it would be nice if the bucklers were.given love in the speed department so if u wanted u could make a real sword and buckler duelist that could contend in the high speed duels but have the same disadvantage vs ranged basically that a 2h has(well a little less but u have to use.skill points to wear shield)
Mebbe.take one buckler call it elite buckler raise the stats and requirements
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Dear two-hand weapon whiner-abouters.
I am Dexxtaa_RS. I've bought and played this game for just over 3 months now.
All I have to say about two-handers is that in the times I find one of you silly one-hander limp-wrist guys, I spend my time beating down your shield with my sword and relish in watching you panic when your shield breaks and you either
a) go nuts and try to spam the peasant or
b) go nuts and run away to find another shield.
So complain all you want, as you must realize your shield is your crutch.
Keep whinging and whining, because I love it when people call two handers overpowered. It makes my straw hat happy.
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the polearm swing is even faster
Yes it is, that's the reason why I'm going to invest all my wpf in polearms as soon I hit lvl 31 and retire.
Currently I'm 1H+shield/friendly archer combo which means I have 111 wpf in 1H which is really low. I've tried to use Side Sword but I gave up on that and picked Broad One Handed Battle Axe. With my current setup I'm doing 3 times better than I did with Side Sword which is a terrible weapon imo. Right now I'm again being useful for my team and my scores are back to those I made as a Ninja with 140 wpf. I'm not good at manual blocking but I had no trouble playing as Ninja. I had awesome movement and swing speed, so I could spam those who don't know manual block at all and insecure shielders. Also spammers weren't much of a problem because they are predictable. Playing as a Ninja isn't harder than playing sword&board. Both builds require patience & skill. Skilless build atm is strength barmace (lolcrush) build. You are a bit slower than the others but you wear good armor and stay slightly beside your team, when comes to clusterfuck you're the one with most kills and there isn't an ounce of skill involved in those kills.
1H isn't hero build, it's made for teamplay. Shielders working together are the most dangerous gang on the battlefield, especially if they put some skill point into throwing. 2H and polearms are made for lone wolves, hero type of players which can't get in their heads how come that group of 5 shielders killed him/her.
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I'm tired of the association between 2handers and skill. It's a fallacious association. If you think fallacious has something to do with fellatio, then don't respond, you may already be a moron.
Why is it a fallacious proposition of the relationship between kills and skills? 2handers get a kill in 1 or 2 hits. This means they need to accumulate far fewer successful hits to get a kill, and in turn need to parry fewer times. For all these claims about parrying in most fights against 2handers, I score hits not by getting them when they're parrying the wrong side, but when they aren't parrying at all, because they simply don't parry as much as is professed on these forums.
What we relate to skill in terms of players, is what the player can do with what the mechanics give them. The issue 1her's continually bump up against in playing is that what the mechanics give them is not equivalent in emergence to what the 2handers get from the mechanic. There is no comparison in the amount of 1handers, no matter how skilled, getting as many kills as a 2hander. Yet the claim is made that this is simply dependent on player skill.
My argument is this: The amount of skill needed to get kills for a 2hander is much less than for 1handers. 1h without shield you have less range and damage, and so have to be better at parrying to win 1 on 1. This disparity is also the case for 1h/shield users, because of the improper representation of shields in the game. If you don't agree with me, too bad. This wiki article does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield
"A shield is a type of personal armor, meant to intercept attacks, either by stopping projectiles such as arrows or redirecting a blow from a sword, mace or battle axe to the side of the shield-bearer." ...
"When used in fighting, shields were most effective when used to cause glancing blows. By deflecting a sword blow to the side, rather than blocking it head on, the attacker could be rendered open to a counterattack. This technique allowed the shield to be made lighter and more easily wielded, while reducing the amount of energy and risk of injury posed to the shied-bearer."
The deflective abilities of shields are not represented in this game, users are forced to take hits head on, rather than having any mechanical representation of what made shields useful in melee combat in the first place.
Do any of you understand that the people complaining are having a problem with the proposition that the game mechanics make about the use of shields? IT does not hold true to the state of affairs in reality.
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If you think fallacious has something to do with fellatio, then don't respond, you may already be a moron.
I giggled. :mrgreen:
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lol, I wasn't trying to offend. But I've run into that problem before with, let's just call it a medical professional who wears a tie. I was like....srsly? :?
You do see my point right? The 'whining' happens at least on the 1h/shield issue because in game shields are just not what real shields are like. So if that issue is never addressed any new 1h/shield player may end up 'whining' about it.
Perhaps the most useful thing to do would be to explore and write up a list of in game mechanics that don't correlate to real life, and then sticky that shit. Then chadz could go through and just say what he intends on never changing or can't change because of hardcoding. Then it would at least be something to link to when people start 'whining' hopelessly.
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1H isn't hero build
I know a "hero" who would disagree.
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Than onehanders could outspam everyone once they close in and it would be unplayable.
Man, you are really about to loose if a heavy shielded man is fast enough to get into close range. You can blast his shield off from the safe distance. Shielders are strong only in groups, and still only when they cooperate.
Paraphrasing:
Two handers can outspam every shielder whether they're close or not and this it is unplayable
2h advantage is good speed, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged
Agree
1h advantage no manual block and not vulnerable for any ranged, weakness they are whiners cause they dont have skills for manual block
Disagree, one-handers also vulnerable whenever we're about to attack. Shielders can close in safely, but only if ranged player is blind and does not fall back. Otherwise they're just bunch of idiots running around clueless, waiting for someone to get them.
Do I have to remind, that 2h also can take a shield for a walk?
polearm advantage very fast side slash, weakness they are vulnerable for any[quote kind of ranged (except when using a shield with it)
Fast slash, and decent thrust range, not mentioning crazy damage and ability to crush through decent shield in 3 hits.
you shielders are just a band of whining jerks who cant manual block for a shite,
You're wise man... in some parallel universe filled with morons. Firstly, if someone does not need to manual block it doesn't mean he isn't great at it.
and if you can manual block dont whine youve the choice to become 2h or polearm,
That's great! Screw the balance, abuse the errors!
The point of this topic is to make this game better, and not let donkeys like you run this discussion.
when you think 1h is shit why become a 1h???@#@#
It's just need to experience most that this game offers. You sureley did not have the opportunity to even play as onehander, so STFU.
Why did you become an idiot, if you knew it sucks?
and limit the 2h swing speed???
come on
the polearm swing is even faster
Such a great reason to throw it to the trash can! Why do you wash yourself? There are tons of bums dirtier than you!
@Camaris 2H mauls were impossible for me. If they swing from above - I couldn't get in attack range - so no benefit from faster 1h side swing, as for hammer attack from side - low enough swing will make shielder fall on ground always.
I didn't play cRPG a while, will need to check how does it look like.
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Shield should have a direction of "blocking" like unshielded blocking in witch they won't take damage from weapons.
You also lower the speed of the bigger ones and the lighter and less resiliant shield would be of great interest of efectivness and fun.
But I think this is harcoded so...
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@Rextard
You are wrong. Skilled shielder will get good scores, too. Having played different characters, I'd say a correctly built shielder is in fact easier to do good with.
Shield mechanic from balance perspective is ok, it gives easy defence but weak offence, which balances out. And you can in fact block and counterattack at the same time, it's called chamberblock, but it's too hard to use for normal players (spam sometimes lucks into them, though). From gameplay perspective, I'd agree, mechanics aren't really good, but that means change, not just nerf of 2h.
That 2h can use spam and range instead of blocking is a good thing, since just swing-block-swing would get stale fast. What is wrong imo is that with the extreme movement speeds possible you don't really need to block as 2h and can rely on running entirely, but same is with turtle running randomly through crowd to cause chaos and teamkills.
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turtle running
:rolleyes:
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If your question is why 2h/Pole get more kills? Because they always start attacks. They always get the momentum of the fight.
The first thing a shield user is doing is he sees a 2hander is blocking.
If you 1h/Shield-Guys would be more aggressive you would get more kills but that is what the majority of you is lacking.
Yeah, try to attack first with weapon which have 40 less effective range than your opponent ... wait. Animations. Consider the animations before posting such stupid ideas. Oh, and i often strike first against polearms and 2h users, they are most likely surprised like hell because nobody do this.
OMG OMFG
again again and again,
I'm getting pissed of you bloody whiners,
2h advantage is good speed, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged
2h advantage is RANGE, DAMAGE, SPEED, MOVEMENT SPEED, BETTER STATS (no need to put points in shield skill), STUN.
1h advantage no manual block and not vulnerable for any ranged, weakness they are whiners cause they dont have skills for manual block
No manual block comes with slower feints, less responsive attacks and block (check shield animations), higher upkeep. Invulnerability against ranged ? Since when ? Shield user have to hold rmb to block (without holding it shield does not protect against threat we are trying to deal with), so we can't run. This, coupled with slower movement and inability to run holding rmb makes us easier targets to shoot at than 2h users. Get it ?
you shielders are just a band of whining jerks who cant manual block for a shite,
and if you can manual block dont whine youve the choice to become 2h or polearm,
when you think 1h is shit why become a 1h???@#@#
and limit the 2h swing speed???
come on
the polearm swing is even faster
greetz, Berend
I can manual block better than you (after i warm up with it)
2h and Polearms should be not only choices and forcing people to play them is plain idiocy from your side.
Some of us perhaps LIKE HOW 1H LOOK LIKE
So ? Nerf polearm speed and 2h speed then. Or fix shield animations and mechanic. Or both.
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I am tired of arguments such as: but 2her can take a shield for a walk too, cmon, i choose 2h build so i would not have to carry shield around! Why to force me get piece of equip i dont want to buy/wear/upkeep?
I do not mind being hit by arrows if i cannot dodge, i try to get better at blocking, and purely outrunning you with 2h spec might be possible for agi stackers, but not for str oriented builds or, in smaller extent, hybrids (imagine 9str rest agi or something vs 21str 15 agi, you WILL notice difference).
2H swing speed was already downed by 1 for the top tier swords, so iirc German Greatsword is same speed as Bar Mace now. And, actually, you should be able to swing fast while you are holding JUST your weapon, not being slowed by shield or anything.
PS: i saw sone swordboarders let go off shield in order to be faster than me, so, maybe try that? i know it is not viable for crowded fights and such, but still, without shield 1hers are faster, and as you are getting agi for shield skill(are you?) you should be able to backpeddal str build but vs agi build, gonna be fun
i have to roll 1H er to try it out actually :D
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I am tired of arguments such as: but 2her can take a shield for a walk too, cmon, i choose 2h build so i would not have to carry shield around! Why to force me get piece of equip i dont want to buy/wear/upkeep?
I do not mind being hit by arrows if i cannot dodge, i try to get better at blocking, and purely outrunning you with 2h spec might be possible for agi stackers, but not for str oriented builds or, in smaller extent, hybrids (imagine 9str rest agi or something vs 21str 15 agi, you WILL notice difference).
2H swing speed was already downed by 1 for the top tier swords, so iirc German Greatsword is same speed as Bar Mace now. And, actually, you should be able to swing fast while you are holding JUST your weapon, not being slowed by shield or anything.
PS: i saw sone swordboarders let go off shield in order to be faster than me, so, maybe try that? i know it is not viable for crowded fights and such, but still, without shield 1hers are faster, and as you are getting agi for shield skill(are you?) you should be able to backpeddal str build but vs agi build, gonna be fun
i have to roll 1H er to try it out actually :D
Fail post, backpedal helps 2h and poles in combat.
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Would not say so, maybe for them ninjas or agi stackers, but for str builds? The turtle if lowered shield is faster in movement forward then me backwards...and if he facehugs me, i cannot pretty much do anything :P xcept try to kick him and go thru with hammer or something
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Would not say so, maybe for them ninjas or agi stackers, but for str builds? The turtle if lowered shield is faster in movement forward then me backwards...and if he facehugs me, i cannot pretty much do anything :P xcept try to kick him and go thru with hammer or something
2h are effective at very close range. They can bypass shield and deal crapload of damage due to their innate higher damage ... Just blocking is more problematic.
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2h are effective at very close range.
This is actually a pet peeve of mine. With most 1h'd weapons it's actually detrimental to "facehug" as the weapon will glance much much more (especially thrusts and overheads). You really have to use the "sweet spot" when using a 1her. However on my 2her and my polearm character (and you can see other 2h/pole guys do this as well) it's actually better for me to facehug people as I hit them sooner in the animation and all I have to do is aim downwards a little bit towards the feet. It's annoying that 2hers/pole guys are more effective facehuggers than those of us with 100 or less reach (fucking 64 reach on some weapons :evil:)
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This is actually a pet peeve of mine. With most 1h'd weapons it's actually detrimental to "facehug" as the weapon will glance much much more (especially thrusts and overheads). You really have to use the "sweet spot" when using a 1her. However on my 2her and my polearm character (and you can see other 2h/pole guys do this as well) it's actually better for me to facehug people as I hit them sooner in the animation and all I have to do is aim downwards a little bit towards the feet. It's annoying that 2hers/pole guys are more effective facehuggers than those of us with 100 or less reach (fucking 64 reach on some weapons :evil:)
Animations and damage did it. 2h and poles have them better and deal more damage so are less affected with sweet spots.
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Animations and damage did it. 2h and poles have them better and deal more damage so are less affected with sweet spots.
1h is op
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1h is op
How so ?
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The only problem I have with 1h is their hard to see animations and headshot swing. They are annoying, but I can live with it.
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The only problem I have with 1h is their hard to see animations and headshot swing. They are annoying, but I can live with it.
Only with short weapons, longer are telegraphed like hell. That headshotswing have extremelly low range.
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2H/Polearms do not swing too fast. They are fine. As mentioned above their length telegraphs their swings so they're easier to deal with in some ways than really short weapons. I play both 1H/shield and archer and the only balance issue here that I've seen is spammable crush through on the bar mace. The only players who actually scare me with 2H/Polearms are the players who would still scare me even if they were naked with just a flanged mace. And all of them play Native. :rolleyes:
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I suggest all people who keep whining about 2H still being OP, go make a 2H and see how easy it is to survive and top the scoreboard with all the throwing shit that flies around, with no shield and a 0 IF agi build.
In duels 2H are faster, as they should be and you might have problems dealing with them if you keep your shield up, but with the shield on your back a 1H can easily outspam a 2H, maybe except crazy 27 agi katana builds. If I duel a 1H with no shield that knows how to play I can do nothing against him, short weapons are a lot harder to block so once I am facehugged I'm dead; can't kite him either as most 1H'ers have high athletics as well.
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Swing speed on most weapons is pretty much ok. However the recovery time from a swing could use tuning based on the weight of the weapon. STR might also be included in this calculation. Only light weapons such as most 1h should be 'spammable' weapons.
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Nnnnnnnnnno.
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Hey whiny 1 hander! A 2h'er isn't out spamming your 1h weapon. Your weapon speed is 97 or 103 or whatever right? But what's that in your other hand? That shield you ask? What about it? Well ITS speed is 61! Guess what? It matters! What? Shield speed matters you say? Craziness! I can swing and block at the same time!
No, you can't. Put a shield in front of your face and try to swing a sword through it to hit what is on the other side. Guess what? You have to lower your shield and.........it takes time to do that! Don't like it? Drop the Steel Buckler and grab an Elite Cavalry Shield instead. If you are still having problems, well....your mother lied to you when she said you were just as good as the rest of those boys :P
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The swing speed is a bit crazy. Been in fights where I cannot swing at all without my opponent hitting first (no what I block or kick).
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The swing speed is a bit crazy. Been in fights where I cannot swing at all without my opponent hitting first (no what I block or kick).
Then, good sir, you were outskilled.
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Then, good sir, you were outskilled.
or outpinged.
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or outpinged.
or outbugged, or outlagged.
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I can swing and block at the same time!
No, you can't. Put a shield in front of your face and try to swing a sword through it to hit what is on the other side. Guess what? You have to lower your shield and.........it takes time to do that!
lol, Amusingly phrased, but completely wrong if you're referring to what is possible IRL with sword and board combat.
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lol, Amusingly phrased, but completely wrong if you're referring to what is possible IRL with sword and board combat.
You still cant both have your shield raised effectively against arrows and hit someone left of center. It also depends upon the size of the shield. You simply cant move your arm through a solid object you are holding in front of yourself. :wink:
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Hey whiny 1 hander! A 2h'er isn't out spamming your 1h weapon. Your weapon speed is 97 or 103 or whatever right? But what's that in your other hand? That shield you ask? What about it? Well ITS speed is 61! Guess what? It matters! What? Shield speed matters you say? Craziness! I can swing and block at the same time!
Actually it's 81 since most people use Huscarl. Steel shield users are very rare because of the upkeep :wink:
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You still cant both have your shield raised effectively against arrows and hit someone left of center. It also depends upon the size of the shield. You simply cant move your arm through a solid object you are holding in front of yourself. :wink:
I don't know about you, but MY arms are attached at the sides of my body, not at its center. I can easily cover my body with a shield while still doing right to left and overhead slashes with a sword. Maybe it wouldn't work well with a Huscarl's shield, but most other shields are not wide enough to block your right arm.
Actually it's 81 since most people use Huscarl. Steel shield users are very rare because of the upkeep :wink:
Also, shield speed doesn't affect the lowering of the shield, only the raising.
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You still cant both have your shield raised effectively against arrows and hit someone left of center. It also depends upon the size of the shield. You simply cant move your arm through a solid object you are holding in front of yourself. :wink:
This is very true, to do a left-to-right slash, you do have to either roll your shield above your swing zone, or lower it. Thrusting, overheads, and right-to-left slashes would still allow you to cover the shield hand side of your body. Your weapon hand side would still be pretty vulnerable either way.
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I do pretty well against two handers and polearms on my shielder. It can be annoying fighting high athletics people, as I'm a bit slow, but other than that it isn't a problem. I usually use the steel pick, the broad one handed axe, or the warhammer. The speed issue isn't usually what gets me killed. It is usually range, footwork, or just misjudging timing. The onehanders are pretty fast.
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In summary :
Two handers don't need a swing speed decrease.
No, your limp wrist grip should never be faster than a full on two hand augmented swing, two handed weapons were not as heavy as you think.
Yes, you have a shield, so learn to block... oh wait, you don't need to, because all you do is right click and BAM HUSCARL SHIELD BLOCK ERRYTHING EHAUEHAUHEAUEH
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With the new WSE I would agree for limiting 2H/polearms speed IF shield manual block is implemented. Otherwise it would be stupid and there will be no point to play 2H when you can have all the advatanges and more as 1H+Shield.
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This is actually a pet peeve of mine. With most 1h'd weapons it's actually detrimental to "facehug" as the weapon will glance much much more (especially thrusts and overheads). You really have to use the "sweet spot" when using a 1her. However on my 2her and my polearm character (and you can see other 2h/pole guys do this as well) it's actually better for me to facehug people as I hit them sooner in the animation and all I have to do is aim downwards a little bit towards the feet. It's annoying that 2hers/pole guys are more effective facehuggers than those of us with 100 or less reach (fucking 64 reach on some weapons :evil:)
That is so true, so many times when I was face hugging a 2-hander/polearmer he would 1 hit kill me with a bardiche by "limboing" me with the wooden part though the game would make it count as if the slashing part hit me. Also, my hits (mainly stabs and over heads) would bounce off so WTF? We're paying a lot for a range protection and our ability to block all front attacks, we shielders have huge weaknesses:
1) Shield slows our swing speed and running speed (this is alright)
2) Low range weapons (some are like 65!!!) (again this is ok, we can't have a 140 lenght weapon in a single hand)
3) Those low range weapons are BOUNCING OFF when face hugging!!! (on the other side, this really needs to be changed, how are we suppose to do anything if we can't even kill when we're doing what we are suppose to in a melee fight which is close up to the guy/face hug him???)
This third point is just retarded, that's one of the main issues as a one hander that needs to be fixed in order to help us make it up for the speed of 2-handers/polearms.
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That is so true, so many times when I was face hugging a 2-hander/polearmer he would 1 hit kill me with a bardiche by "limboing" me with the wooden part though the game would make it count as if the slashing part hit me. Also, my hits (mainly stabs and over heads) would bounce off so WTF? We're paying a lot for a range protection and our ability to block all front attacks, we shielders have huge weaknesses:
1) Shield slows our swing speed and running speed (this is alright)
2) Low range weapons (some are like 65!!!) (again this is ok, we can't have a 140 lenght weapon in a single hand)
3) Those low range weapons are BOUNCING OFF when face hugging!!! (on the other side, this really needs to be changed, how are we suppose to do anything if we can't even kill when we're doing what we are suppose to in a melee fight which is close up to the guy/face hug him???)
This third point is just retarded, that's one of the main issues as a one hander that needs to be fixed in order to help us make it up for the speed of 2-handers/polearms.
No.
1) You don't have enough Power Strike, or
2) You are incorrectly positioning yourself, or
3) The opposing 2h/polearmer is properly utilizing footwork.
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No, 1h are far more prone to boucing - or need better positioning PS or heirlooming to overcome it - than 2h. Thrust is a very bad offender, on short range it bounces, stuns you and you are dead, so I only use it for surprise stabs on range, which is kind of tricky, too, when you are against a weapon that's a good deal longer than yours.
It's not a game balance issue, 1h+shield is very competitive, it's just something that makes no sense.
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No.
1) You don't have enough Power Strike, or
2) You are incorrectly positioning yourself, or
3) The opposing 2h/polearmer is properly utilizing footwork.
I had 6 PS when it happened and it was on mail! And don't tell me if I stab somebody in the belly while being at 1 foot from him it will bounce?!!!
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No, 1h are far more prone to boucing - or need better positioning PS or heirlooming to overcome it - than 2h. Thrust is a very bad offender, on short range it bounces, stuns you and you are dead, so I only use it for surprise stabs on range, which is kind of tricky, too, when you are against a weapon that's a good deal longer than yours.
It's not a game balance issue, 1h+shield is very competitive, it's just something that makes no sense.
I did not say that 1 handers were not more prone to bouncing. They are, in fact, more prone to bouncing. To remedy this issue, you need sufficient power strike and sufficient skill to gauge what position you need to be in relative to your opponent and to gauge the distance your weapon needs to travel for it to not bounce off.
I had 6 PS when it happened and it was on mail! And don't tell me if I stab somebody in the belly while being at 1 foot from him it will bounce?!!!
Learn the intricacies of the 1 hand thrust animation. You can't stab someone with a 95+ length one-handed weapon from a foot away; that's a property of the animation. Instead, try twisting your body by turning right as you begin the thrust, and twisting violently to your left as you follow through the stab-portion of the animation. I've used a Long Espada Eslavona for the better part of 5 months; I have done this plenty of times. I have also bounced many, many times. You just need to learn how to most effectively use your weapon/
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I did not say that 1 handers were not more prone to bouncing. They are, in fact, more prone to bouncing. To remedy this issue, you need sufficient power strike and sufficient skill to gauge what position you need to be in relative to your opponent and to gauge the distance your weapon needs to travel for it to not bounce off.
The issue I was stating is why should one handers (on top of being slower) be more prone to be bouncing off? The polearms "sweet spot" is so large that you can "limbo" somebody and it will count as if you hit him with the tip of the weapon. With such small weapons for the one handers, it's ridiculous that we have a "sweet spot" too ... it should simply do it's job when you face hugging somebody, darn! We have the shortest weapons!
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I did not say that 1 handers were not more prone to bouncing. They are, in fact, more prone to bouncing. To remedy this issue, you need sufficient power strike and sufficient skill to gauge what position you need to be in relative to your opponent and to gauge the distance your weapon needs to travel for it to not bounce off.
High damage weapons help as wel. I recommend the military cleaver. Great weapon.
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Even the flanged mace with length 70 sometimes bounces on cloth armor.
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High damage weapons help as wel. I recommend the military cleaver. Great weapon.
I have a tempered military cleaver and it will still sometimes bounce when face hugging. :?
On the other side, maybe it's only me, but I'v seen it happen less often then when I was using the scimitar...
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Shorter weapons rarely bounce, picks, axes, etc. their sweet spot is basically right up in your nose, so the typical bounce trickery doesn't work.
Most of the bounce tricks involve really maneuvering in such a way your hit hits too early in the animation and ergo does nothing, or you launching a attack on the wrong side and hitting too late in the animation. Positioning.