cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Torben on July 12, 2011, 11:36:11 pm
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just played my first round and its cool. sry for the primary bitching ^^
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I haven't played in this new system but just from what I've been seeing people do I think it adds a lot more strategy to the cav class. They can't simply circle poke with a lance anymore, they have to now plan their charge well ahead of time. It gives them much more incentive to "hit and run," making lance passes and getting far away before wheeling around and attacking again.
It also creates a great dichotomy between lance cav and onehanded cav; you'll want a good mix of the two in a good team, since lance cav can be your flankers and 1h cav can get in close and dirty with their sideswings and circling.
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actually good lancers always did that. i think the change just makes lancing not so spammable (as in every noob gets a horse) which is cool
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You would like it, you only ever stabbed people in that arc anyway.....
Champion courser users are largely unaffected by this change. Sarranid horse, on the other hand....
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amusing.
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You would like it, you only ever stabbed people in that arc anyway.....
Champion courser users are largely unaffected by this change. Sarranid horse, on the other hand....
I can see higher charge value horses becoming more the standard for lancers, and faster more maneuverable horses becoming the domain of 1handers and Horse Archers because of this. Definitely not a bad thing in my opinion; it leads to a more specialized gear loadout for each class.
A maneuverable horse might still have some value while charging however; they are by nature easier to "bail out" of a bad charge with, and also, they'll fare better against other horsemen on heavier horses.
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I like it in theory because it allows 1h cav again. But there's a big problem with it, it's that now 2h are immune to cav. And many polearms as well. You can still attack occupied enemies though (it's a bit harder). But no more raping lone people.
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I like it in theory because it allows 1h cav again. But there's a big problem with it, it's that now 2h are immune to cav. And many polearms as well. You can still attack occupied enemies though (it's a bit harder). But no more raping lone people.
you always have the weirdest insights....
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But no more raping lone people.
Best.
Sentence.
Evar.
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Best.
Sentence.
Evar.
as in how-the-hell-does-he-come-to-think-that
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I like it in theory because it allows 1h cav again. But there's a big problem with it, it's that now 2h are immune to cav. And many polearms as well. You can still attack occupied enemies though (it's a bit harder). But no more raping lone people.
Its a lot harder when they're facing you now, but I feel like that's how it should be. That should be the domain of the 1h horseman. The lancer should mostly be ninja-ing, something which so far I have seen done to great effect on the servers (especially on foggy maps.) And while it may take more skill, zig-zagging toward an aware enemy may also throw off their swing timing, allowing you to score a lance hit that way.
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I haven't played in this new system but just from what I've been seeing people do I think it adds a lot more strategy to the cav class. They can't simply circle poke with a lance anymore, they have to now plan their charge well ahead of time. It gives them much more incentive to "hit and run," making lance passes and getting far away before wheeling around and attacking again.
It also creates a great dichotomy between lance cav and onehanded cav; you'll want a good mix of the two in a good team, since lance cav can be your flankers and 1h cav can get in close and dirty with their sideswings and circling.
yes that is in the perfect world where you use a super armored horse.. i guess if you sold a heirloom you may.. but if you use any horse that is not armored... good luck getting dirty...
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I can see higher charge value horses becoming more the standard for lancers, and faster more maneuverable horses becoming the domain of 1handers and Horse Archers because of this. Definitely not a bad thing in my opinion; it leads to a more specialized gear loadout for each class.
A maneuverable horse might still have some value while charging however; they are by nature easier to "bail out" of a bad charge with, and also, they'll fare better against other horsemen on heavier horses.
What do you smoke?. 1handers need strong horses that can take loads of damage.. not horses that get killed in 2 arrows.. let alone being hit by other kind of weapons...For guys like you is that the horses were nerfed like this. You have no idea. For a 1hander the maneuverlity isnt that important. You actually only attack vulnerable targets or you are screwed. A lancer has his lance to keep distance, so they go better with the best turners. (well that is not true anymore since they actually cant gain distance anymore). 1h need very strong horses with tons of charge, so you can actually can cross the enemy line slashing the necks of the other team. Doing that with a weak horse is instant dead. Then again, you can use a 1h to attack non aware targets as you were a lancer.. but then.. what is the point of having 2 kind of cavalry that doesnt basically the same?... and that is... backstabing ppl and trampling peasants. Salute.
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Its a lot harder when they're facing you now, but I feel like that's how it should be. That should be the domain of the 1h horseman. The lancer should mostly be ninja-ing, something which so far I have seen done to great effect on the servers (especially on foggy maps.) And while it may take more skill, zig-zagging toward an aware enemy may also throw off their swing timing, allowing you to score a lance hit that way.
No man in the world would try killing a horse/rider at full speed using a 2h, coz even if you hit the horse/rider... you are likely going to receive more damage than the horse/person combo :). If you kill the horse.. well, good luck stoping a 500kg horse going at 50 km/h with your chest.
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Before the patch you could safely (if you timed it right) hit anyone with a shorter weapon than the heavy lance without risking getting hit. Now you cannot do that anymore. Every attack means risking your horse or yourself (or both).
Personally I don't like this limitation to the lance attack at all and I don't enjoy playing the class near as much as I did. I feel so damn restricted. Like a retard on a horse.
The level of skill to make full use of the lancer class has been decreased alot with this "nerf".
However I'm not only sad about this. With the restrictions of the classes (by making them less versatile) teamplay is becoming more important. And I like teamplay.
Lancers are now much more dependent on other classes or by other lancers as they can no longer own on their own. Which is good I guess.
However... 2H owns all other melee classes including 1h cav and lancers. Is that really how it should be?
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It feels like the game is getting more restricted and less skill based for each patch that just makes everything slower and more limited.
But I know why. That way teamplay gets more important and individual skill less important.
keep in mind we are not playing on fastest speed. Once everything is balanced, then they can increase game speed if desired.
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The level of skill to make full use of the lancer class has been decreased alot with this "nerf".
yes, that was my first thought aswell. new skill sets must be mastered now, or old ones in a different way. of course i miss the versatility that the lancers used to have, but its still lots of fun, even more when gotten used to. so meh, i´m pretty pationless about the change.
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yes, that was my first thought aswell. new skill sets must be mastered now, or old ones in a different way. of course i miss the versatility that the lancers used to have, but its still lots of fun, even more when gotten used to. so meh, i´m pretty pationless about the change.
I guess you are right.
Anyway, I've decided to tryout 1h cav now + crossbow. Have never really tried it. It's just that it's a bit more expensive with the extra armour required...
I actually begin to like 1h cav alot... doing quite well on EU1 :)
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With the restrictions of the classes (by making them less versatile) teamplay is becoming more important. And I like teamplay.
Lancers are now much more dependent on other classes or by other lancers as they can no longer own on their own. Which is good I guess.
Pretty much like lancing in native clan matches. Pick your battles, support infantry, hit the unawares etc. I like that.
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the arc change is good but still needs improvement. Lance should be the end all of frontal attack. Only melee weapons of 150+ length should stand against a lance (spears, pikes, flamberge)
as it stands now, pretty much anyone with a thrusting sword can kill frontal attack lancers
quick fix:+25 length on all lances, reduce speed by 10-15
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the arc change is good but still needs improvement. Lance should be the end all of frontal attack. Only melee weapons of 150+ length should stand against a lance (spears, pikes, flamberge)
as it stands now, pretty much anyone with a thrusting sword can kill frontal attack lancers
quick fix:+25 length on all lances, reduce speed by 10-15
Or try giving extra 10-20 degrees.
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After playing a while with the new changes I actually think we are onto something. For one it really makes lance vs lance cav fights more interesting.
I guess it makes fighting infantry more interesting although it is really stupid how easy a 2h can stab kill your horse because the lance doesn't protrude enough over your horses head. I think the angle should be either increased slightly like 10-20 degrees more, increase lance length, or making couch lancing more effective.
Couch lancing should be something no infantry can withstand without either a pike, or terrain advantage. Currently any infantry that isn't an idiot can dodge a couch without any issue. Maybe increase the speed that you can adjust your couch from side to side.
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i have noticed that lance damage has been greatly reduced aswell, maybe because of the new armor soak n shit, dunno. all in all some major changes.
any who:
my thoughts: i bit longer lance would be nice, but not rly a must imo
my wishlist: if possible in any way, id like to see the arc radius be dependant on speed. in still stand, a radius like it always was, in highest speed (champ courser in 6th gear)
it could be even less than now, or just like it is : )
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I don't get why some lancers don't see that their class was OP.
You thought you had that much skill when you logged in and got 40 kills? Of course you had learnt something, gone from zero to hero, like everyone else in this game, but it just wasn't RIGHT.
The average player, in whatever class he plays, should have a good chance of getting 1 kill then die. If one class is superior, then all the other classes suffer from that, and you have a player shift to that class, like we saw just prepatch.
Being cav, with obvious advantages like choosing your battles, speed bonus and 1 shot kills must have some bad sides. Now it's a bit harder to lance people, that's good. If you loose a battle, no-one forced you to attack that person from a disadvantage, while you can enforce battle in your chosen moment on all infantry and archers at your wish.
Now it is a little bit harder to play as cavalry, but by no means the end of the class. Good cavalry players still do very good, and there is proof right there.
So please stop crying, and start thinking what this change means for your playstyle.
(i.e. 2 cav see a shielder or archer? First one bounce, second one stabs him or couches him to death. He has absolutely no counter to that.)
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I don't get why some lancers don't see that their class was OP.
simple: lance caving is like a fucking fighter plane: way too fun and awsome to want a change to happen.
You thought you had that much skill when you logged in and got 40 kills? Of course you had learnt something, gone from zero to hero, like everyone else in this game, but it just wasn't RIGHT.
The average player, in whatever class he plays, should have a good chance of getting 1 kill then die. If one class is superior, then all the other classes suffer from that, and you have a player shift to that class, like we saw just prepatch.
Being cav, with obvious advantages like choosing your battles, speed bonus and 1 shot kills must have some bad sides. Now it's a bit harder to lance people, that's good. If you loose a battle, no-one forced you to attack that person from a disadvantage, while you can enforce battle in your chosen moment on all infantry and archers at your wish.
Now it is a little bit harder to play as cavalry, but by no means the end of the class. Good cavalry players still do very good, and there is proof right there.
So please stop crying, and start thinking what this change means for your playstyle.
(i.e. 2 cav see a shielder or archer? First one bounce, second one stabs him or couches him to death. He has absolutely no counter to that.)
now, the lance cav was -and is- a class of its own, and in context of a battle never (last patch that is) was op, because there were enough countermeasures against it. the balancing however failed, which put 2 out of 3 countermeasures (HA and other lancers) in the same team.
in direct comparision to any other class, the lancer (and other cav to a great extent) was of course more effective:
-speed of the horse gives lets u attack the enemy force at almost any spot at any time from any angle.
-gives you damage boost
-the horse itself can take some beating, giving you in some part more reletive hp (speed bonus on the other hand gets you one hitted very fast aswell)
etc., etc.
and THIS is why the lancers wouldnt say they are op, but just have the advantages the class should bring.
i am still undecided if the new lancing needs more skill or restricts the player in unfolding his complete potential, but who the fuck cares anyway.
i am well aware that the former lancing was a pain, because, no matter how skilled a few guys in other classes were, they couldnt do a lot against it if not organized. and thats why i understand the changes. u can actually fight back easily now.
the thing that bothers me about this is that a game is more interesting if not everyone can kill everyone. the more challenges the merrier, but the devs hav their masterplan and im sure itll all fall into place.
and meh, lancing is still ok fun i guess, altho a lot less.
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actually good lancers always did that. i think the change just makes lancing not so spammable (as in every noob gets a horse) which is cool
Atleast some can see it, gj.
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Lancing is indeed a tad harder but being a good lancer is still very possible. Lancers' potential is more restricted though, which I'm assuming was the point of the nerf anyway. Ive noticed both while lancing and while on foot as a caveman stone thrower that dodging lances is hilariously easy now, but if Huey and TommyHu and the other good lancers can still rock on cav maps then I think we can deal. We'll see as time goes on and people get more used to the changes.
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What i dont like is that lances that are shorter than the "great lance" like the Heavy Lance should not out range the great lance when thrusted. When couched the Great lance should out range any other lance even when thrusted. The great lance can only be used couched so has many limitations and needs to out range thrusted lances. Any one who has used a lance in real life will know that they have no hitting power against armour unless they are couched, you can also usea a significantly longer lance when couched, hence the 5 m long lnces of the winged hassars
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The problem is, every aware infantry guy with a lolsword can now kill lancers without lancers having a chance. The lolstab just kills them. I know lolstab was long ago changed into a shorter animation, but it's the entire sword that's impossible. The german and danish greatsword need higher STR requirments so they can't be spammed like a helicopter's blades, it's 2 meter of iron you are flying around with, and when doing a stab with such a long sword, the only way to really hurt with it is to use the polearm animation for it, it's just so clumsy if done that way.
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Patch day 3, people starting to cool off...
gj Torben in seeing the light, now only Miralay left!
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The problem is, every aware infantry guy with a lolsword can now kill lancers without lancers having a chance.
i disagre. stil one of the few challenges left, killing a good 2hander in a duell situation. the little damage a lance does now pisses me of greatly tho. i need about 3 stabs into an armored face to kill the dude when not at full speed -.-