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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Keshian on July 10, 2011, 06:17:58 pm

Title: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Keshian on July 10, 2011, 06:17:58 pm
"Projectile's speed will be lowered by 31%. Longbow arrows has 55 projectile speed, will have 38 after patch."

"The problem is none of you has an idea what those numbers mean ingame.

Aww, whatever. Longbow will have a "real" shoot speed with minimum PD(6) of 60 m/s. A destrier with riding 4 has a "real" top speed of 9 to 10 m/s. Those are both pretty realistic values compared to the real world."

First off, the destrier is the wrong horse to compare it to, as 90% of cav use courser or arabians and usually minimum 5 riding (would be like using the nomad bow's shoot speed for comparison, not the fastest shoot speed of all bows - longbow), so that would be closer to 20 m/s in your example, which is not realistic that ahorse moves 1/3rd the speed of a longbow arrow.  Secondly, a developer trying to use "real world" examples in a game balance discussion is a really bad sign as the real world is never balanced, but games are fun because they are balanced.

Archers are still one of the weakest classes out there with all their nerfs.  They die really easily, most archers' arrows are really easy to dodge, and they take 10-12 arrows (half a quiver) to kill these tincan strength builds that are proliferating unless they use the very slow longbow, which makes them easy to kill before they redraw their bow back.  The only time I ever see archers being effective at all is if they are the best archers out there, very good at melee and so they get a bunch of kills in melee, or run in a large pack of other archers (who can all be easily killed by just 4-5 lancers in 10 seconds with a bunch of 1 shot kills if the cav is organized like the archers are.  I know plenty of fast shielders and lancers who love how easy it is to rack up kills by going after archers, because they are so easy to kill.  I know I find them the easiest to go after when I fight just as a 2hander as the current already lowered shoot speed makes arrows really easy to dodge if youa re aware of who is shooting at you.

End result of such a change:  More tincan strength spammers in mob melee and cav lancers - both classes that can 1-shot people fairly easily.  Archers' arrows will be dodgable by all but the most stupid tincan and even they hit they do 1/50th of your health unless theya re within 20 feet of you, which means 1 arrows hit before they get 1-hit killed.  Still don't get how strong bow and warbow users can at all seem overpowered, though I do see a lot of tin can pure strength builds complaining because longbow fianlly allows some weapon to actually hurt and kill them other than cav lancers and other tincan bec users (usually a good half-dozen or more on any given server at any given time, and thats just the bec users, not talking about danish greatsword users).
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Team_Jacob on July 10, 2011, 06:29:38 pm
Confirmation that the item balancing team has down syndrome and/or are melee biased. Good thing I have my 2h/tincan and cav alts to play because all ranged is pretty useless.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Paul on July 10, 2011, 06:33:08 pm
We are high on chromosomes. No shot speed nerf for xbows though.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Shablagoo on July 10, 2011, 06:45:28 pm
http://nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Not a single archer on that list.  Maybe 2 shielders.  Everyone else is 2h or polearm.   I'm sure the EU servers are no different.  Logical response?  NERF RANGED! 

I really don't get it.  Pretty soon the only viable ranged weapon will be the pike. 

Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Keshian on July 10, 2011, 07:00:36 pm
http://nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Not a single archer on that list.  Maybe 2 shielders.  Everyone else is 2h or polearm.   I'm sure the EU servers are no different.  Logical response?  NERF RANGED! 

I really don't get it.  Pretty soon the only viable ranged weapon will be the pike.
Using the battle stats:
There are 2 HORSE archers between 25-50, because its much easier to avoid dying as a horse archer, which boosts your k/d ratio by keeping deaths to a minimum.  Damatacus, Fallen_Loki, and I are in 50-75 range, but I know both Damatacus and I get a lot of kills from melee, so the first true foot archer is Fallen_Loki in 75th place.  Thats 74 people doing 2hander/polearm/lancing/xbow/throwing before you get to even 1 archer.  How the hell is that overpowered.

So, xbows currently outrange archers in long range accuracy, while being able to wear heavy armor, so you need to reduce shoot speed of bows so they can glance or do 1/50th of an xbowman's health with his good armor because of the extremely low shoot speed (a strong bow will then have only half again the shoot speed of a thrown shuriken), while they still 1-2 shot you in your weak archer armor.  And by the way realism argument: bows using tensile strength should not have barely above the shoot speed of a thrown throwing star, that is completely unrealistic if you are going to argue realsim.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bonze on July 10, 2011, 07:06:29 pm
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Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bramd on July 10, 2011, 07:07:23 pm
Using the battle stats:
There are 2 HORSE archers between 25-50, because its much easier to avoid dying as a horse archer, which boosts your k/d ratio by keeping deaths to a minimum.  Damatacus, Fallen_Loki, and I are in 50-75 range, but I know both Damatacus and I get a lot of kills from melee, so the first true foot archer is Fallen_Loki in 75th place.  Thats 74 people doing 2hander/polearm/lancing/xbow/throwing before you get to even 1 archer.  How the hell is that overpowered.

So, xbows currently outrange archers in long range accuracy, while being able to wear heavy armor, so you need to reduce shoot speed of bows so they can glance or do 1/50th of an xbowman's health with his good armor because of the extremely low shoot speed (a strong bow will then have only half again the shoot speed of a thrown shuriken), while they still 1-2 shot you in your weak archer armor.  And by the way realism argument: bows using tensile strength should not have barely above the shoot speed of a thrown throwing star, that is completely unrealistic if you are going to argue realsim.

I think Paul must have been trolling...  I can't imagine they're actually going to do this.  It would make archers completely ineffectual.  Just, gone.

Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: MadJackMcMad on July 10, 2011, 07:08:24 pm
We are high on chromosomes. No shot speed nerf for xbows though.

Heart attack averted, but still this sounds utterly bonkers.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 10, 2011, 07:11:23 pm
Hey, relax guys, we just gotta arch all of our shots to the moon to shoot any real distance, and that will be easy to shoot cav down with! Horse Archer hunting will be a breeze!

I am so glad I am going 9PD with my next build. I look forward to seeing just how much chaos I can create with the new arcing shots.

Good news is that indirect fire will be viable though, lulz. Medieval Mortar teams here we go!
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: BlackMilk on July 10, 2011, 07:11:39 pm
successfull troll is successfull...
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 10, 2011, 07:12:59 pm
successfull troll is successfull...

Only time will tell of how the new patch will work. *shrugs*
Regardless, my Main will be an Archer till the day I die, regardless of any buffs or nerfs, and I shall use the Warbow until I die too...
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: EponiCo on July 10, 2011, 07:22:03 pm
"The problem is none of you has an idea what those numbers mean ingame.

Go to your modules folder and into native. Open item_kinds1.txt
Find this line

 itm_long_bow Long_Bow Long_Bow 2  long_bow 0  long_bow_carry 3458764513820540928  6357000 5905584128 145 655370 1.750000 100 0 0 0 3 0 79 56 0 0 278 0

Change it

 itm_long_bow Long_Bow Long_Bow 2  long_bow 0  long_bow_carry 3458764513820540928  6357000 5905584128 145 655370 1.750000 100 0 0 0 3 0 79 38 0 0 278 0

Run native and test. And yeah, I agree it's too much. Rather take 2 points of damage away from all bows above khergit.

Hey, relax guys, we just gotta arch all of our shots to the moon to shoot any real distance, and that will be easy to shoot cav down with! Horse Archer hunting will be a breeze!

I am so glad I am going 9PD with my next build. I look forward to seeing just how much chaos I can create with the new arcing shots.

Good news is that indirect fire will be viable though, lulz. Medieval Mortar teams here we go!

I used to have fun with the light crossbow. Hide sowhere, point into the sky and shoot. I once actually headshotted a tincan with that.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: MadJackMcMad on July 10, 2011, 07:24:24 pm
Only time will tell of how the new patch will work. *shrugs*
Regardless, my Main will be an Archer till the day I die, regardless of any buffs or nerfs, and I shall use the Warbow until I die too...

Which will be soon and frequent if this goes through.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 10, 2011, 07:25:44 pm
Which will be soon and frequent if when this goes through.

Then I shall be dying frequently but with great stubbornness. :/
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: MadJackMcMad on July 10, 2011, 07:34:52 pm
The greatest issue I foresee is similar to the issue with xbows and rain.  Selective Realism.  I will happily believe that the new speed is more 'realistic'  however, it is a realism that has to contend with antagonistic forces which are arcade in nature, and therefore, have a distinct advantage.  The unrealistic shot speed compensates against an avatar's 'arcade' freedom of movement.  Heavily armed and armoured soldiers did not have the ability to ignore momentum and change direction in the blink of an eye.  Consequently, with this change, although an archer may fire more realistically, his ability to score hits will be unrealistically low.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: [ptx] on July 10, 2011, 07:35:10 pm
DaveUKR started this!  :o
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Paul on July 10, 2011, 07:41:10 pm
Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Astinus on July 10, 2011, 07:46:22 pm
well since we had flying carpet, the old saying "don't use real life arguments" is sadly over.

We'll see what will change, but every thing that can potentially make range spam less deadlier is always welcomed, especially when strategus will hit
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bramd on July 10, 2011, 07:49:46 pm
Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

That's fine, if you're going for realism...  But then the next step would be making it so horses can't turn on a dime, and if cav runs into something at high speed they have a 50% chance of being thrown from the horse with a 10% chance of dying on impact...  That would be more realistic as well...  And certainly highlight the skill of the cav that can avoid running into things at high speed.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: cmp on July 10, 2011, 07:54:37 pm
That's fine, if you're going for realism...

Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bramd on July 10, 2011, 07:59:00 pm
Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

And maybe you missed the part where he said "So all bows got a more realistic v0."
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: [ptx] on July 10, 2011, 08:01:55 pm
And maybe you missed the part where he said "So all bows got a more realistic v0."
Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bramd on July 10, 2011, 08:05:06 pm
Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

I think the part I missed is where archers are so overpowered they need some sort of nerf.  I don't play an archer mind you...  But I don't really see them as too much of a problem...  They're an annoyance, and once in a while a good one comes around and takes your head off.  How is that a problem that needs fixing...  As it is only the most skilled archers in a server are even coming close to the top of the team.  So you're nerfing something that's not overpowered, in an effort to make it more skill based, while referencing making it more realistic, and leaving alone things that are less skill based and more powerful and less realistic.  I'm not trying to troll, I'm really trying to figure out how this is the logical solution to anything.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2011, 08:15:53 pm
Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

I remember you've said something similar about throwing a long time ago. I'm not sure if I agree on this however.
For a target moving in a direct line relative to the shooter, projectile flight time will of course increase the "skill" required to be able to hit. In this scenario you are right.

For a target that try to avoid, or even just maneuvers a little, (Read-everyone that is aware of being shot at + everyone else that maneuvers for some reason.) lower projectile speed makes it far more "random" (since it becomes a game of prediction of future moves, even if aim, leading and timing is perfect.)

So more than skill, this suggestion would require being able to look into the future rather than leading in most cases.

This leads to more team-hits, and is also a powerful indirect buff to cavalry. (Since archers seems to have big problems hitting them even now..)

At least such a change should go hand in hand with a maneuverability nerf to cav. (Since they would be nearly impossible to hit at distance)
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: [ptx] on July 10, 2011, 08:22:44 pm
You have to start with something, right?

And, yeah, it IS possible to predict enemy movement in most cases. Although i do fear Cav being buffed a ton by this. Though i am looking forward to the increased accuracy.
Shot speed nerf seems HUGE, but i guess there are other changes that will accompany this, so IMHO, it is a bit too early to make any ASSumptions about this.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Bulzur on July 10, 2011, 08:28:42 pm
Be happy Thomek, you and your ninjas will finally be able to dodge 90% of the arrows (10% are lucky shots, shit happens).  :mrgreen:

Medieval Mortar teams here we go!

Do our arrows finally have some spash damage ? That would be funny.

In a more serious note, i wouldn't mind archery requiring more skill. But the way i see this reduction in projectile speed, is actually to allow all skilled infantry to dodge arrows. So to be a good range, you'll need skill, for the curve trajectory, and luck. And i agree that the only viable build for foot archers will be a 9 PD built. Since i alreaady need 3-4 arrows with my strongbow for medium armored infantry, but every first time i shoot them, they'll look around. Maybe take a second arrow before spotting me ("oh, look at this beautiful slow curve, the archer shooting at me is obviously there") and will take no more, while gently travelling his way to the archer location.

And once all archers will have their 9 PD build, and only need 2 arrows to kill people, we'll still get a big wave of protest from thoses infantry, unaware, but it's basically not their fault.

Also, why do you listen to an xbow lobbyist to "balance" archery ? Since when do you value realism so much over balance ? When will wounded infantry and horse be crippled and move 30% more slowly per 40% health missing ?


Edit for above : Who cares about accuracy. All dedicated archers have already enough now. -_- We'll clearly have to change our foot archer 15/24 build into a 21/18 one to be usefull again. Goodby slow strongbow.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Keshian on July 10, 2011, 08:29:04 pm
Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

Actually less skill if it give easier accuracy.  But what you actually haven't worked out is how much damage gets reduced, any arrow shot mid-to long range will practically bounce on anything above 10 armor.  So the only shots worth shooting will be close range, so the skill of angling shots at longer range than face-hug disappears as there is no point to wasting an arrow that only takes 1/20th of someone's health.  80m/s???? really how do you come up with this made up number for what it is in-game as the game doesn't use stats like that.  If you are really balancing then all the xbows other than arbalest would have less shoot speed than a longbow, instead of them all going to be higher now.  And throwing weapons that can shoot 1 a second will have almost as much shoot speed as the bows, really I can throw as hard as a bow????  Where is the reality in that?

Where are you getting the idea that archers are OP??  The only thing proliferating are 1 wpf meleers who have enough gold to shoot xbows too.  Why this sudden MASSIVE nerf to one of the most nerfed and weakest classes in the games.  Do you want horses to be invulnerable to archers because they barely go faster than a courser's speed?  And really this stupid example of a destrier comapred to longbow is inherently flawed, its a courser compared toa  longbow and 6 powerdraw to 6 riding - longbow will only be 1.5x to 2x the speed of a horse, thats utterly unrealistic.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Arrowblood on July 10, 2011, 08:30:38 pm
low shotspeed to the longbow is just gay. END
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Beans on July 10, 2011, 08:48:59 pm
Where is this 31% lower speed coming from? You quoting one of the devs from IRC or something?

31% slower projectile speed is going to make archers a fucking joke. As a cav it is already easy as fuck to dodge arrows from archers by just doing the most braindead of course/speed changes. With 31% slower arrow speed I won't even have to bother changing course, I can just slow down occasionally and they will miss because they have to aim so fucking far ahead. With slower arrows speed your are going to relegate archers to only shooting at other archers because they are stationary, and people going in a straight line up ladders.


Just to make this clear: I fucking hate archers and still think that this nerf is terrible



edit: Shit is going to be hilarious when the next patch buffs throwing(allegedly) and then totally shits on archery so everyone goes melee and throwing again
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Peasant_Woman on July 10, 2011, 08:53:50 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&#t=0m40s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&#t=0m40s)

You've never been so concerned with historical accuracy before, why now?
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Ming on July 10, 2011, 08:54:26 pm
Now all archers need to learn how to use bows to aim all over again. Great job :!:
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Beans on July 10, 2011, 08:57:09 pm
Now all archers need to learn how to use bows to aim all over again. Great job :!:

The best way to use a bow now is going to be to hold your arrow until they are directly in your face about to strike because there's no way you can hit anyone dodging running around. Obviously this makes sense now that we are worried about realism.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Ming on July 10, 2011, 08:58:45 pm
The best way to use a bow now is going to be to hold your arrow until they are directly in your face about to strike because there's no way you can hit anyone dodging running around. Obviously this makes sense now that we are worried about realism.

Even if i do that i still need fucking 15 arrows to kill Templar_PolePoop
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tuonela on July 10, 2011, 09:01:13 pm
Even if i do that i still need fucking 15 arrows to kill Templar_PolePoop

You aren't meant to kill tincans with a Strong bow.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Blondin on July 10, 2011, 09:09:37 pm
Is the new patch out? did you make some test? did you play with this new patch?
or are you just crying about something write on this forum or on irc?

Once again, majority of our community (atleast archers) fail to see a greatest goal.
You all know that chadz doesn't fuckin' care of cRPG, he's only dream is Strategus, and i'm sure that all of the tweak (or nerf) have been done to fit Strategus.
I remember old Strat battles, it was archerfest, chadz said that he didn't want that anymore...

I'm looking forward to see a big battle with this new change, and i hope that Strat battles will allow more tactics that just archers kitting.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Sammael on July 10, 2011, 09:16:09 pm
I'm afraid this might not have the desired effect. As other have pointed out, shooting at longer distances requires a calculation of lead time and arrow drop, as it should. However, quite rarely do I find targets that maintain their current course for very long. Sideways movements, slowing down, moving faster all happen quite often. This being the case, the longer it takes for an arrow to reach the target, the more likely it is that the target has altered their course in the time between release and impact of the arrow. Successfully hitting a target would therefore become more luck dependant rather than skill dependant, at any significant range.

Can't we leave archery as is? I have recently done both an archery gen and a cav gen. I can tell you that I don't particulary feel more skilled at either role, however my k:d ratio as an archer hovers around 1, while my cav k:d (currently at level 26, mind you) is well into the 2's.

If developers would like to balance a particular play style to become more skill dependant, why not start with the style that seems to do exceptionally well even when the player is less than exceptional?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not lobbying for a cavalry nerf, but higher dependance on skill is a good thing and cavalry could use some adjustments before we start messing with archery, especially in a way that very well may not end up accomplishing what was intended, instead resulting in a nerf.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Keshian on July 10, 2011, 09:50:26 pm
Is the new patch out? did you make some test? did you play with this new patch?
or are you just crying about something write on this forum or on irc?

Once again, majority of our community (atleast archers) fail to see a greatest goal.
You all know that chadz doesn't fuckin' care of cRPG, he's only dream is Strategus, and i'm sure that all of the tweak (or nerf) have been done to fit Strategus.
I remember old Strat battles, it was archerfest, chadz said that he didn't want that anymore...

I'm looking forward to see a big battle with this new change, and i hope that Strat battles will allow more tactics that just archers kitting.

Wow, you do realize that was over 4 patches ago, each one nerfing archery more and more?? 

And the skill argument, why dont we reduce shoot speed to 1 as it it will require real skill to hit accurately then?  This is way to biga  nerf and will not add to real skill becasue the arrows will travels incredbily slow that any idiot with any  skill can dodge them.  Archer duels will be meaningless, and archers will do even worse than now (and theya lready ahve some of the lowest k/ds of any class).
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Blondin on July 10, 2011, 10:05:38 pm
Wow, you do realize that was over 4 patches ago, each one nerfing archery more and more?? 

And the skill argument, why dont we reduce shoot speed to 1 as it it will require real skill to hit accurately then?  This is way to biga  nerf and will not add to real skill becasue the arrows will travels incredbily slow that any idiot with any  skill can dodge them.  Archer duels will be meaningless, and archers will do even worse than now (and theya lready ahve some of the lowest k/ds of any class).

What does mean k/d ratio per class when we speak of teamwork?
Once again, you think that change are bad because you don't have the same k/d ratio that one year ago... i know you remember old Strat battles or native battles, i can understand that as an archer you like that, but what's the interest if warband is just a medieval CS, if the only valuable tactics is archery pwning? I agree archery should have a place in battles but not the major one, i like to play my archer, and i never play on no ranged server because it's bs and no fun, but i like to fight in battles, too infantry vs infantry (i don't speak of cRPG).
We should wait and see, if Strat battles (ok we should wait a long time) are nice and fun for everybody then it's goof, if they are lame and ranged too much nerfed then a buff would be needed, just give inf a chance.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Spawny on July 10, 2011, 10:16:14 pm
This happened before with throwing.

It made me relearn my throwing and arcing and made it impossible to hit anything moving at mid-long ranges.

One thing it DOES do, is increase the damage from speedbonus.

Not sure how it works, but I do remember that speedbonus has a higher effect on slower projectiles.

Anyway, looks like a harsh nerf, since I don't feel like the projectilespeed is too high now. And I'm not even an archer.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Ming on July 10, 2011, 10:26:19 pm
You aren't meant to kill tincans with a Strong bow.

still its a bow...i mean if u r talking about real life, strongbow is less damaging than the longbow, but again, the differences are not that big.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Apostata on July 10, 2011, 10:28:22 pm
Perhaps it's time to learn how to shoot in volleys.

*runs away*
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: MadJackMcMad on July 10, 2011, 10:31:26 pm
Perhaps it's time to learn how to shoot in volleys.

*runs away*

Volleys were effective, against close knit formations of hundreds of men . . . I forsee a problem.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 10, 2011, 10:40:42 pm
Perhaps it's time to learn how to shoot in volleys.

*runs away*

Volleys are meant against large clumps (extremely rare in c-rpg), and secondly unless archer builds are identical, volleys are impossible. The Fallen have tried to do volleys innumerable times, and the shoots speeds are so different from archer to archer that they are more of a head ache then anything.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Lorenzo on July 10, 2011, 10:45:19 pm
Obviously I did not tried the changes but I'm really scared.

Most of the last nerf patch did not really changed the way I had to play (minor ajustments but I got over it quickly) with a missile speed change it may feel like shooting underwater for a while.

Anyway, we'll see!
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Ming on July 10, 2011, 11:06:00 pm
Too many changes really make things unsecure for many players. I was a polearmer, i went to archery because of the newly introduced longbow. Now after this nerf i will have to change my hierlooms again :(
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tzar on July 10, 2011, 11:08:41 pm
Hmn damn ninja edit..  :oops:

Anyways its only the bows that is getting this beautiful change and not the xbows??  :lol:
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Seawied on July 11, 2011, 12:29:49 am
An archer shot me today. Clearly they are OP. I want them lowered by an extreme amount so I can be like Keanu Reeves in the matrix. Its historically accurate too. A Viking berserker's pecks were so strong that they could deflect arrows. Samurais were so skilled they could deflect arrows. Here is a historical video portraying this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpAc96rZp4#t=1m40s




(click to show/hide)






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Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tennenoth on July 11, 2011, 12:50:28 am
I didn't think they would do it... Did us archers deserve another nerf? I shall see how this is, but I guarantee it won't show the difference between "the skilled archers & the peasant archers" for numerous reasons already brought up by the community.

When there are more cavalry running wild than normal because archers can't dehorse and pikemen can't hold onto their pikes, you know what to do...
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Thomek on July 11, 2011, 12:52:05 am
balance is also about having a sensible mix of classes. (amount of players playing each class)

I.ex Archery may well be as efficient as 2h atm, but people have a tendency to pick it up faster. It might be easier, it might be that more people simply want to play archer, idk.

Fact is that at least on EU there are tons of Archers atm. When it reaches a certain threshold of arrowspam, other classes become near-unplayable. The same goes for cav..

So if there is a shift in the playerbase, as to what class they are playing, it changes the game. Then it is time for a nerf.. I feel that way very clearly with cav at the moment, and to a certain degree with archers+xbows. Shielders and 2h I feel are pretty much balanced out, considering the other advantages a shield brings. (both on a skill level, and ranged protection)

To balance things out atm here is "my recipe" in order of importance:

1. Nerf cav maneuverability, and a little bit of their top speed, so they can't be more mobile than infantry no matter the terrain.
2. Nerf Archery a tiny bit. Perhaps a very few points in damage, and/or projectile speed.
3. Give back simple anti-cav weapons that are sheathable. (light, but long enough spears. Should stop cav, but not be better than pure infantry spears. The bamboo is a weapon of the type im thinking of, but we need a euro version of it.)

Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 11, 2011, 01:00:33 am
balance is also about having a sensible mix of classes. (amount of players playing each class)

I.ex Archery may well be as efficient as 2h atm, but people have a tendency to pick it up faster. It might be easier, it might be that more people simply want to play archer, idk.

Fact is that at least on EU there are tons of Archers atm. When it reaches a certain threshold of arrowspam, other classes become near-unplayable. The same goes for cav..

So if there is a shift in the playerbase, as to what class they are playing, it changes the game. Then it is time for a nerf.. I feel that way very clearly with cav at the moment, and to a certain degree with archers+xbows. Shielders and 2h I feel are pretty much balanced out, considering the other advantages a shield brings. (both on a skill level, and ranged protection)

To balance things out atm here is "my recipe" in order of importance:

1. Nerf cav maneuverability, and a little bit of their top speed, so they can't be more mobile than infantry no matter the terrain.
2. Nerf Archery a tiny bit. Perhaps a very few points in damage, and/or projectile speed.
3. Give back simple anti-cav weapons that are sheathable. (light, but long enough spears. Should stop cav, but not be better than pure infantry spears. The bamboo is a weapon of the type im thinking of, but we need a euro version of it.)

And just like that, bam, your entire post is no longer valid due to the latest patch  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Thomek on July 11, 2011, 02:58:46 am
lol.. i know tears.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Gildiss on July 11, 2011, 03:43:33 am
Cool, xbows still have the old speeds.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 11, 2011, 10:51:38 am
oh my god this made archery amazing
+100 awesome points for the shootspeed change. Made archery much more skill based and I greatly approve. More tactics possible, etc. It was a good move.

However, Whatever broke the damage to be so high [soak/reduce something or other] and enable me to 2 or 3 shot everything needs to be fixed though.
 I was topping the scoreboards with an 18/21 Dedicated [no melee, I let myself die to melee if they catch me without teammates] archer. An Archer I just created and don't have practice with. I play melee characters...
Some screens here of K/D. Didn't screenshot when I was with the fallen archers and they were the entire top 7 of the team with melee nowhere close.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Paul on July 11, 2011, 12:05:53 pm
We are investigating the armor ignore stuff. It's not intended.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: rustyspoon on July 11, 2011, 02:34:29 pm
Gotta say, I'm a big fan of the archery changes too. The arcing (though odd) is easy to get used to if you've ever used a grenade launcher in an FPS. I also LOVE the fact that my arrow goes where I fire it instead of deviating. Hooray for accuracy!

Oh, but fuck Xbows. Still get 1-shotted by a MW arbalest.
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 11, 2011, 04:07:03 pm
oh my god this made archery amazing
+100 awesome points for the shootspeed change. Made archery much more skill based and I greatly approve. More tactics possible, etc. It was a good move.

However, Whatever broke the damage to be so high [soak/reduce something or other] and enable me to 2 or 3 shot everything needs to be fixed though.
 I was topping the scoreboards with an 18/21 Dedicated [no melee, I let myself die to melee if they catch me without teammates] archer. An Archer I just created and don't have practice with. I play melee characters...
Some screens here of K/D. Didn't screenshot when I was with the fallen archers and they were the entire top 7 of the team with melee nowhere close.
(click to show/hide)

On the bright side, every time The Fallen Death Squad hits a server, our team does not have to worry about the new upkeep with the permanent X5. Enjoy people!
Title: Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
Post by: Adam_Bomb on July 11, 2011, 04:17:00 pm
On the bright side, every time The Fallen Death Squad hits a server, our team does not have to worry about the new upkeep with the permanent X5. Enjoy people!

No kidding, we kept a x5 last night for hours it seemed XD