cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Guides => Topic started by: zagibu on June 11, 2011, 02:28:10 pm
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This guide is not very up to date. The tactics still apply, but for the character build, note this: Weapon Master skill is currently not that important, if you choose one of the faster weapons. This means you can either go for a 21/18 build and wear a bit more armor, or stick with the 24/15 build and put some or all of the points into Iron Flesh instead of Weapon Master.
Also, a new build has become very popular that is more agi focused, better armored and uses the fast, short weapons with high damage, like the steel pick. Note that it's currently mostly experienced players with already triple loomed weapons, who use those builds, but feel free to give one of the following a try: 15/21, 15/24, 12/24, 12/27.
We already have an excellent defensive shielder guide. Now, I've rolled 1h + shield after having played 2h or pole for a long time, so I thought I'd write down my impressions. This, with the help of other 1h + shield players, shall become an offensive shielder guide.
First of all, don't get frustrated if you can't get an even K/D before level 25. Maybe it was my inexperience with sword and board or the fact I was using heavier armor at first, but I was pretty much useless before that level. As a 2h, I can usually "break even" at levels 12 - 15, so it's not just because I'm a bad player.
CHARACTER
Now, for 1h and shield, it is important to have enough speed, both movement and swing speed. You don't want to get circled by 2h/pole, you have to keep up with backpedaling agi spammers and you obviously need the swing speed to get a hit or two in from time to time, or your shield will break, and you will be reduced to a handicapped 2h build (manual blocking with shorter reach, lighter weapon and lower damage).
I recommend 15 AGI with 5 Shield, 5 Athletics and 5 Weaponmaster. Now this might sound a bit low, considering I just talked about how important speed is. The reason why these values still make you fast enough is because I also recommend fighting with light gear, not more than 15-16kg (including shield and weapon). Don't rely on armor, your shield is your armor. If you want to wear the same armor as 2h or pole players, you need more AGI than them, because the extra weight of your shield slows you down. I think this is the most important thing for 1h and shield characters.
15 AGI also means you can go rather high in strength. I use 24 STR and 8 Powerstrike. This adds enough extra HP without IF that I usually don't die in 1 hit. It also means my own hits will hurt quite a lot. It's important to have high damage on an offensive character. With 8 PS I can 2-hit kill most anyone with backhand blows to the head, and often I only need 1 hit. It also reduces the chance of glancing blows, which are a death sentence otherwise.
Character build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Variation build by Aemaelius and firmitas
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 15
Hit points: 70
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
This build should help you survive a bit, while sacrificing a little offensive power. You have 70 HP instead of 59, which means you probably won't ever be killed in one blow (except from headshots, of course). The decreased strength also means you can carry less, though, so you must tweak your equipment further to find the new sweetspot. Personally I don't like this build so much, as in my opinion, the increased HP doesn't help in a lot of situations, because if you get hit once, you are probably already in a situation where they will kill you anyway (because someone surprised you, or they circled you). It might help a bit against archers who got on your side, though. Or against friendly fire. In general, your shield should take all the damage, and you, none.
EQUIPMENT
I already wrote about the light armor I use. It consists of a Skullcap, Padded Jack, Leather Gloves and Leather Boots. I also have a set of slightly heavier armor consisting of Mail Coif, White Tunic Over Mail, Mail Mittens and Mail Chausses, but it already slows me down considerably. I rarely use it.
As a shield, I use a Heavy Heater Shield. This is mostly because I think it looks cool. You could actually go with a lighter shield like the Knightly Kite, Knightly Heater or Elite Cavalry Shield. Or you could use a Huscarl's Shield for the better coverage. Norman shields also have quite good stats, if you can live with the look. I find that all those shields last long enough against non-axe weapons. If an axer heads your way, you have to put your shield on your back anyway, unless you use the Steel or Heavy Board Shield with more than 5 Shield skill. But then you'd better read the defensive shielder guide.
Now for weapons I use either a Knightly Arming Sword or a Military Pick. There are many good swords, some actually better than my choice, but I prefer European-style swords. Some less obvious choices include the Military Cleaver, Shashka and Arabian Cavalry Sword. Some of those swords do not have stabs, which can be a pro or a con, depending on how good you are at controlling your swings. You see, an accidental stab when you are close to someone will probably kill you, because the stab takes a long time to recover from, if you bounce on their armor. And you will bounce with stab close on almost every time, unless you know what you're doing. That's why some players fight exclusively with stab-less weapons like the Scimitar and Elite Scimitar.
As for non-sword weapons, I can recommed the Military Pick, the (Broad) One Handed Battle Axe and the Military Hammer. The pick has very good damage against armored targets, the axe is excellent at destroying shields and the hammer has knockdown, which can get you a free follow-up hit. If you feel the Military Hammer is too slow for you, use an Iberian Mace. Of course, since 1h weapons are only 1 slot, you can carry multiple, e.g. an axe with high cut and bonus against shield and a hammer with good armor penetration. Just play around with different loadouts and see what weight still works for you.
I know a lot of 1h players use the Steel Pick or Warhammer. In my opininon, these weapons are too short. It means you either miss swings (which will kill you), or you will have to constantly push into your enemy (which reduces your battle awareness). Another disadvantage of short weapons is the fact that against fast opponents, even if you constantly try to facehug them, they will evade far enough to strike twice, before you are in reach again, which means your shield will take more hits and break faster.
I tried to use them for extended periods of time, but I was simply not as effective as with longer weapons. It is worth to try them, though, since your mileage might vary, and they do a lot of damage, especially if loomed. For me, 70cm was the absolutely shortest length I could be effective with (wait for incoming penis jokes).
Heirlooming is pretty important for all 1h weapons, because their damage levels are located around the 2-hit falloff. A MW might make the difference between 3-hitting or 2-hitting most enemies. Check it in the cRPG damage calculator, 24 str, 8 PS, 140 WPF, 30-37 cut against 40-45 armor. It varies around 50-65 damage in two hits on average (for cut damage): http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
As a side arm, you can consider a crossbow with steel bolts. They can still be fairly useful, especially on siege, even with no WPF invested. I recommend against sacrificing 1h WPF, though, because if you go much below 130, katana spammers might start to get a hit in before your return strike after you blocked.
Another helpful sidearm, especially for cav maps, is a pike or other form of spear. If you use the pike or similarly long spears, note that they can't be sheathed, so your character will drop them, when you switch to the shield + 1h weapon.
Any sidearm means additional weight, which slows you down. Either drop it before heading into melee, or adjust your equipment to the point you still feel fast enough with it on your back.
Equipment
Armor: Anything below 7-10 kg (all 4 armor pieces), go for style, not protection
Shield: Knightly Kite/Heater, Heavy Kite/Heater, Elite Cavalry, Huscarl's or the (Heavy) Norman Shields
Sword: Knightly Arming, Nordic Champion's, Elite Scimitar, Scimitar, Arabian Cavalry, Military Cleaver, Shashka, many more choices
Other Weapons: Military Pick, (Broad) One Handed Battle Axe, Military Hammer or Iberian Mace
TACTICS
Now, some tactics for shielders:
- Remember, you have an autoblock: use it. Push into enemy formations like a battering ram, run circles among them and let your allies strike their confused backsides. You might die in the process, but this tactic actually wins battles. You can also protect other team mates, e.g. when they are hacking a door down. Remember to jump, when the archer is located on higher ground, or you won't catch the arrow.
- Keep moving. Especially in tight situations, if you keep moving, those guys in the second row doing overheads with their long weapons will not be able to hit you, if you move around. Change direction abruptly and frequently, don't run regular circles, or they will predict your position.
- Bump those pesky ranged. If you run into ranged opponents with your shield up, you will bump them and they will stagger, unable to shoot. Don't try to hit them before the bump, or they might get a shot off, straight in your face.
- Don't fall for feints. Good 2h/pole players will try to get you into rythm, then break it by feinting. Before you have learnt to abort your own swings midair, only swing back when you hear the hit on your shield.
- Don't get circled. Even in 1 vs 1 situations, 2h/pole and other shielders will try to circle you. If you don't use a Huscarl's Shield, your sides will not be well protected, and if you don't pay attention, they will simply strike past your shield.
- Be wary of the kick. Expert players will try to kickslash you. You can avoid this by always strafing a little. Even if you run up to someone, just before you reach him, start moving to either side a little. Not only will you be able to avoid the kick, you might even get enough to one side to get a hit in.
- Backpedal and sidestep. Against aggressive players, especially steel pick users, at first backpedal. Then suddenly start moving forward and also strafe to one side. You will often be able to get on their side enough so their shield doesn't protect them anymore. It's like Judo, turn their force to their disadvantage.
- Always attack the unaware player in the second row. If two or more players attack you, backpedal. They will try to circle you, but since you are fast enough, you can evade them by sidestepping while backpedaling. If you do so, one player will continue to hit your shield, while the other will be out of reach for a while. Wait for a hit on your shield, then start pushing forward through the gap between them and strike at the player who was previously out of reach. This works 90% of the time and you will even be able to do it multiple times against the same set of enemies. Immediately after having struck at the farther opponent, turn around and restart the backpedaling.
- Vary your swings. Be patient. Even expert blockers will miss a block eventually, if you vary your swings. Of course, this only works in 1 vs 1 against non-axers. If you do get a hit in, try a follow-up hit immediately. It works more often than not, especially if you follow up with a different swing.
- Use feints yourself. Especially against other shielders. The block-swing-block rythm can lull your opponents. Try to break it with your own feints. Against non-shielders, backhand feint -> overhead works very well. In general, most players can't block overheads as well as side swings. Another good feint/move is to strike at thin air on purpose and follow it up with a second swing immediately. Many players are ready to block your first swing, then are surprised that you missed and will try a delayed return swing. It's a bit risky though, especially against spammers who never block anyway. They will just mow you down.
- Keep the pressure up. If you are outnumbering your opponents, constantly push into your enemy with your shield. Don't strike. Focus on blocking the attacks of your enemy, while your allies circle him. After the first one of your allies has hit home, spam your opponent into the ground.
- Never let your allies down. Non-shielders rely on you. If you are engaged with an enemy, they will count on you continuing to block his swings and will let their guard down in order to gain more offensive power (also called spam). Don't stop blocking your enemy until he is down. If you retreat only for a sec, he will take the chance to slash at your allies. They will hate you for it.
- Know your different swings. The backhand slash has the shortest reach, but a high chance to hit the head. It also almost hits immediately, if you strafe your opponent on the right. The overhead slash obviously has the highest chance to hit the head. Use it against opponents without helmet, and you will be able to kill them in one blow. The side swing has a surprising reach, but it's kind of slow and has a high chance to bounce, if it is not perfectly aimed. If you use one of the longer swords, you might be able to surprise the shorter 2h users with its reach. The stab has an own section below.
- If you wield a sword with stab, make use of it. The stab can be a good duel starter. Most 2h/pole will expect you to block their first swing, so with good timing, you can get a stab in. You can also try to get even more reach by jumping before the stab. This way you might also hit their head more easily, which often results in a 1-hit kill. A stab in general is a risky move, though, because if not properly timed, it has a high chance of glancing off. Close on, you have to start the stab looking away from the enemy 90° to either side, then turn and guide the stab into their body. It works like when some piker stabs you at face distance, which means guiding the stab into their feet will lower the chance of glancing further.
- Don't unlearn your manual block. If you are in a duel against a mediocre player, it can be good training to put the shield on your back. You must be able to manual block, even as a shielder. Your shield will not help against axers, and even against regular 2h/pole, it will break eventually, so you better be able to block manually.
- Cav is your weakness. You only have short weapons, and you wear light armor. On a cav map, try to group up with spearmen. You can actually play the blind fool and attract them, then when they get close, turn around and run past the spearman, so they will impale themselves on his long stick. But if you are alone, or with other fellows of the same build, you will die. Even their bumps will hurt you. You can try to carry a light spear, but yeah, it's additional weight. Or you could carry a pike and drop it before you go into melee against infantry. You can drop lighter spears, too, of course.
So, that's it for me. I'm sure more veteran shield players have different opinions and more tips for offensive shielders, so I'm looking forward to hearing of them. As a conclusion, I want to repeat the most important thing I learnt as a shielder:
Your shield is your armor. And don't forget that it's also a weapon. There is nothing more pathetic than timid shielders.
Thanks to Camaris for mentioning the Scimitars, I always forget them, because I don't like the look of them.
Thanks to Fluffy_Muffin for noticing the mixup of WPF.
Thanks to Aemaelius and firmitas for the suggestion of the 21/15 build.
Thanks to Spawny for mentioning the weakness against cav.
Thanks to Mala for mentioning the possibility of carrying a spear against cav.
Thanks to Aemaelius for mentioning the crossbow possibility as sidearm.
Thanks to rustyspoon and Trikipum for various helpful contributions.
Thanks to Rhygar666 for mentioning another disadvantage of short weapons.
Thanks to SgtTeeth for formatting advice.
Thanks to dangah for mentioning how bumpalicious shields are.
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Nice guide.
Atm best weapon for 1h-Shields are Scimitars/Elite Scimitars.
Those are the opponents i fear most of ALL enemys on the field atm.
Sometimes they hit so fast i cant get a block up after the first hit.
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No veteran shielders with other opinions / additions?
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I just learned the stab thing a few days ago. I never really bothered with weapons with a thrust attack until I started messing with the arabian cav sword. I noticed a lot of 2h and polearm users would just walk right at me with an attack already chambered and since they outranged me I would typically just block it. With the stab you can actually get in and headshot them before they get their attack off. Seems to surprise a lot of people.
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15 agj just sucks for a shielder.
your shield breaks from 1 or 2 hits from a two hander
youll also get outspammed from anything cuz your slow as hell.
now rip my comment apart :mrgreen:
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Well, neither my Knightly Kite nor my Heavy Heater Shield break in one or two hits. It takes much more, even against Flamberge.
And I don't get outspammed with 146 WPF and a Military Hammer (96 spd). You just can't wear heavy armor in addition to a heavy shield.
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The build you posted is my favourite. I use it with a nuieweidao or whatever it's called. 88 reach and 33 cut damage with 100+ speed. Couple that with a fast shield like the 100 speed elite cav or knightly heater and you're by far fast enough to keep up with anyone, including 27 agility ninja's (if you do your footwork right).
Try it yourself: Pick a weapon and a heavy board shield. Play a few round and then do the same with a faster shield. It's not just the movement speed, everything feels sluggish.
There's 1 major disadvantage when using light armour with a 1h/shield build and that's cavalry. They really can bumb you to death, as the little armour you have doesn't protect well against full speed courser hits.
Skilled lancers will always kill you. Horse archers will kill you. You only really have a chance if you're up against 1h/cav and you have a sword with a thrust.
Optionally, you can always bring a polearm of some sort. 1h+small shield is just 2 slots and you wear light armour, so you hardly have upkeep. Why not bring an awlpike?
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Mostly i use a spear or warspear as backup, they are quite fast and i need them only to stop the horse. Works quite good against medicore cavalry.
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I just noticed you had full polearm wpf but later in the post you say you use Knightly Arming Sword or a Military Pick. So shouldnt you have full one hand wpf?
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Mostly i use a spear or warspear as backup, they are quite fast and i need them only to stop the horse. Works quite good against medicore cavalry.
mediocre is the key-word here. A lancer who knows the range of his weapon will kill you when you try to stop his horse with a much shorter spear.
BUT, most cav turn and pick another target when they see a long stick with a pointy end.
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I started as a shielder and sucked.
Played two-hander and learned to block.
Then became a cavalry man in order to kill
And I ended up as a shielder because of strategus.
I completely agree with your guide. I have very little to add.
A variation of your build is 21 str but with 7 IF. Don a heavy armor and go tank and make people attack you so your friends can do the killing.
This is however much more defensive shield style and I actually think less effective.
I like to compare the good offensive shielder with a wiper. You block and maneuver lulling the enemy to sleep and then suddenly strike for a lot of damage.
And as you say learn to block. You don't want to waste your shield against axe-men and against very good duelers you are faster if you do not use your shield (of course you then have to be a decent dueller yourself!).
Do not get to sad if you suck early on. Lvl 25 is need for a shielder. I actually often use a pike until I reach lvl 25 because the shielder is of so little value until then.
For sidearms I like either a crosbow with steel bolts or war spear depending on situation. The war spear works well with shield with no penalties (compared to awlpike and other such weapons).
You may also choose a shield and a variation of 1h weapons depending on enemies. pick for armor bashin, axe for shield bashing and sword for duels.
I use a Masterwork Elite Scimitar. However there are many other good sword and I might think the langes messer is statswise a better weapon. (Any one want to trade?)
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I agree with the 21 str and 7 IF. Best shielder build IMO. Since shielders are slower than their 2h and pole counterparts it's a lot easier to get outnumbered. Being able to take a few extra hits is handy when you're doing the "weave through the crowd and slash heads move". Using medium armor you're still fast, do a lot of damage and can tank like a champ.
If you're going up against a good player, it's often a good idea to take a couple hits on your shield to learn their rhythm. It can also lull them into a false sense of security if they think you're a turtler.
With str based 1h builds I prefer swords with a thrust. I generally prefer swords because of their range and speed. Also if you're good at spin thrusting, you can thrust all day long and it often catches opponents off guard.
If I ever carry any other weapon it's the super-long pike which I drop when I get into melee range. Helps kill off the initial horse charge. I found that carrying other weapons slows down movement too much and weapon switching is also an easy way for opponents to get hits in.
It is a common misconception that slow shields slow down your attack and feint speeds. They don't. They DO affect your movement speed however, which is a major point in attacking. I currently use a Masterworked Heavy Round which is ALMOST as good as a standard Huscarl but takes up 1 slot.
Another important note, unless you are running ALWAYS have either your shield up or a swing primed. You block MUCH faster if your weapon is raised than if it is down.
I also think it's a good idea to have an alt that doesn't use a shield and play it often to keep your manual blocking skills fresh. Don't want your manual blocking to atrophy when you're easy-mode-ing your way to victory!
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I agree with the build, mostly. I did dump some points into Ironflesh so i could take a hit. Also, i find that you can pretty much go up to Mail w/Surcoat in weight along with 2.5 weight helms and Mail Gauntlets. For weapon and shield, I use the Heavy Kite Shield or Huscarl Shield. Weapons that i find good are the Italian Sword (decent damage, range, price), Steel Pick (Great against tin-cans, but very short reach), Grosse Messer (Great cut Damage, but again, short reach )and the Broad One Handed Battle Axe (Good damage, good against shields, low range)Most of these have low reach but do monstrous amounts of damage when you get in close(so you can invest some more points into agility and athletics to get in close quicker) I would advise against plate for an offensive shielder, it slows you down tremendously so you won't go anywhere to kill people. I would use medium armor.
Lvl: 30 Gen:1
Strength 20
Agility 15
Weapon proficiency
Available points: 0
One Handed 137 8 points per wpf
Two Handed 1 1 points per wpf
Polearm 1 1 point per wpf
Archery 1 1 point per wpf
Crossbow 1 1 point per wpf
Throwing 1 1 point per wpf
Skills
Available points: 0
Iron Flesh 6 3 strength per level
Power Strike 6 3 strength per level
Shield 5 3 agility per level
Athletics 5 3 agility per level
Riding 1 3 agility per level
Horse Archery 0 6 agility per level
Power Draw 0 3 strength per level
Power Throw 3 3 strength per level
Weapon Master 5 3 agility per level
Armor-
Head:Bascinet with Nose Guard-Weight:2.5-Armor:46H
Body:Heraldic Mail with Surcoat-Weight:13-Armor:46B:14L
Arms:Mail Gauntlets-Weight:.5-Armor:6B
Feet:Splinted Leather Greaves over Mail-Weight:2-Armor:30L
I do just fine in this gear, move fast and get lots of kills (1.7:1 average KDR) Cost is not bad and you can stay alive after one hit with this gear.
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This is indeed a good build for this, very good guide bravo.
I always wonder though how much of a difference all that IF would make
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I actually don't like your build in comparison to other builds:
For a 30 level character with max WPF for one handed weapon, and a weapon giving 30 points of cut damage on a 10 level armor you get the following table:
Str/Agi PS.IF Dam HP Dam Ch HP.Gain Tot.Gain
18/18 6.6 42 65 0 0 0
21/15 7.7 45 70 7.14% 7.69% 14.84%
24/12 8.8 47 75 11.90% 15.38% 27.29%
24/15 8.0 48 59 14.29% -9.23% 5.05%
27/12 9.2 50 66 19.05% 1.54% 20.59%
All these percentage gains and loses are versus the 18/18 build. In order words this exercise measures the average damage and Hit Points capacity you gain or lose with the different PS, IF, and WPF combination each build yields in relation to the original 18/18 build.
If you were to compare the 21/15 to the 24/15 build you would see that even though you gain 6.67 percent of more damage capacity with your build, you nonetheless lose 15.71 percent in Hit Points. This net commutative loss of 9.05 percent comes with no increase in other attributes: you will not run any faster, you will not have better shields. Yes you will swing faster, but almost immeasurably.
No if you are going to sacrifice 8 skills points I would go with the 27/12 build. Your attack power increases dramatically, your hit points marginally, and your swing strike speed minimally. Yes, running speed is your main casualty--you should run twenty percent slower if I am extrapolating WaltF4's findings correctly, but then again, if you like speed you should go with the 21/15 build.
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Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)
I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.
would 18/18 be better?
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Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)
I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.
would 18/18 be better?
No. You REALLY won't notice a difference between 5 and 6 especially if you're wearing armor. Really you only have to facehug to use those weapons well. That's also the reason why I don't use them. They take away too much of your maneuverability if you need to facehug to be effective.
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No. You REALLY won't notice a difference between 5 and 6 especially if you're wearing armor. Really you only have to facehug to use those weapons well. That's also the reason why I don't use them. They take away too much of your maneuverability if you need to facehug to be effective.
you also need to block more, take like 1 or 2 hits against your shield till youre in range, so its gets more damaged/breakes more, i wouldnt use those short weapons for that build
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I actually don't like your build in comparison to other builds:
For a 30 level character with max WPF for one handed weapon, and a weapon giving 30 points of cut damage on a 10 level armor you get the following table:
Str/Agi PS.IF Dam HP Dam Ch HP.Gain Tot.Gain
18/18 6.6 42 65 0 0 0
21/15 7.7 45 70 7.14% 7.69% 14.84%
24/12 8.8 47 75 11.90% 15.38% 27.29%
24/15 8.0 48 59 14.29% -9.23% 5.05%
27/12 9.2 50 66 19.05% 1.54% 20.59%
All these percentage gains and loses are versus the 18/18 build. In order words this exercise measures the average damage and Hit Points capacity you gain or lose with the different PS, IF, and WPF combination each build yields in relation to the original 18/18 build.
If you were to compare the 21/15 to the 24/15 build you would see that even though you gain 6.67 percent of more damage capacity with your build, you nonetheless lose 15.71 percent in Hit Points. This net commutative loss of 9.05 percent comes with no increase in other attributes: you will not run any faster, you will not have better shields. Yes you will swing faster, but almost immeasurably.
No if you are going to sacrifice 8 skills points I would go with the 27/12 build. Your attack power increases dramatically, your hit points marginally, and your swing strike speed minimally. Yes, running speed is your main casualty--you should run twenty percent slower if I am extrapolating WaltF4's findings correctly, but then again, if you like speed you should go with the 21/15 build.
This table is nice and all, but why do you test against 10 armor? Do you only attack peasants? Also, you must keep in mind, that damage in points doesn't matter, it's how many strikes you need to kill. To evaluate this, you must look at average target of 18/18 char with 40 - 50 armor, which has between 53 and 65 HP (depending on IF investment).
The 18/18 shielder with 6 PS and 6 WM does between 15 - 26 dmg on average, depending on weapon damage (30 - 35) and armor value of target (40 - 50). The 24/15 shielder does "only" 5 points of average damage more per slash, but this means that my build only needs 2 - 4 slashes on average, while the 18/18 build needs 3 - 5 hits.
In conclusion I think that the 18/18 shielder needs 1 hit more on average to kill an average target, than my build. It should also have a slightly higher chance to bounce.
Also, in reply to other people posting mail armor as equipment: you can do this. But it decreases your offensive power. I notice a remarkable speed difference if I go over 16kg weight with my initial build. That's why I rarely use mail armor. For my playstyle, speed is more important than the ability to take hits. I only get hit when someone is able to get past my shield, and if that happens, I die anyway, because if I turn to face him, my original target will kill me. I don't see many situations where the ability to take hits is important for an offensive shielder (except maybe for taking another stray arrow).
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This table is nice and all, but why do you test against 10 armor? Do you only attack peasants? Also, you must keep in mind, that damage in points doesn't matter, it's how many strikes you need to kill. To evaluate this, you must look at average target of 18/18 char with 40 - 50 armor, which has between 53 and 65 HP (depending on IF investment).
The 18/18 shielder with 6 PS and 6 WM does between 15 - 26 dmg on average, depending on weapon damage (30 - 35) and armor value of target (40 - 50). The 24/15 shielder does "only" 5 points of average damage more per slash, but this means that my build only needs 2 - 4 slashes on average, while the 18/18 build needs 3 - 5 hits.
In conclusion I think that the 18/18 shielder needs 1 hit more on average to kill an average target, than my build. It should also have a slightly higher chance to bounce.
Also, in reply to other people posting mail armor as equipment: you can do this. But it decreases your offensive power. I notice a remarkable speed difference if I go over 16kg weight with my initial build. That's why I rarely use mail armor. For my playstyle, speed is more important than the ability to take hits. I only get hit when someone is able to get past my shield, and if that happens, I die anyway, because if I turn to face him, my original target will kill me. I don't see many situations where the ability to take hits is important for an offensive shielder (except maybe for taking another stray arrow).
I hope you are not one of those that does not let fact and figures get in the way of what reality feels.
I use armor 10 as default. Given that the percentages gain or loses remain the same wether I use 20, 30, 40, 50 armor as an input, makes your point inconsequential. If I input 30 armor for an 18.18 build, then I must input 30 armor for 15.21 build and so forth. Thus, what is important are the percentage changes in damage and hit points capacity that occurs when you choose different builds in relation to the base build of 18.18 e.g. if I increase strength but decrease agility I will get more hit power but less hit points. Moreover, your slashes to kill methodology is saying the same thing in a different way. For the more damage you do in percentage terms the less slashes you will need to kill. However, I must say that percentages paint a more accurate picture than your slashes-need-to-kill-methodology given that it is dependent on external factors. That is why when you go to a gas station you are given octane percentages to determine what gas you want, rather than how much miles per gallon each gasoline type will yield for your particular car: there are too many different type of cars and too many variables to make a cogent assesment.
As to your notions to attack speed differences, they seem to contradict WALTF4s analysis: that if you have a fast weapon and a lot of wpf then weight will have a neglible impact on attack speed. On running speed yes there will be a difference with the increase weight, but you run just as fast with a 21/15 as you do with a 24.15 build.
Second I never argued that an 18.18 build is superior to your build. However, the numbers do suggest that a 21/15 or a 27.12 builds are superior to your build for different reasons. In one build you sacrificing a lot of HP for a marginal gain in fire power, in the other your gain a lot more fire power, and you don't lose HP.
THus, 24.15 build is inferior to a 21.15 build as the hp cost outweighs the fire power gain. And if you are interested in one shot kills then you should go for the 24.12 build
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Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I try to at least explain again why percentages do not matter here. You must KILL your opponent, in as few hits as possible. This means that if your opponent has 60 HP, and you do 29 dmg, only 1 dmg point more will make the difference between 2 or 3 hits. It's only an increase of 3.3%, but if you have this increase, you will kill him in two hits, otherwise, he will have 2 HP left after your 2 hits and another chance to kill you.
This is where I think my build is located at, just a tiny bit beyond the limit, that allows a player using it to kill his opponents in 1 hit less (on average).
Also, I think that 15 AGI is another threshold for shielders. Below that, I get sidestepped and circled much easier than above it. And I already use light equipment, so I think THIS limit really shouldn't be lowered.
Now it would be helpful to actually have the stats of the average player (HP and armor), so you could really tweak your build for optimal average damage ratio.
On a side note...do you use heirloomed weapons? Because I think a 21/15 build with heirloomed Arabian Cavalry, Nordic Champion's or Military Cleaver might perform similar as a 24/15 with non-loomed stuff. As I said, looms can really make the difference, because 1h damage is very close to these 2 - 3 - 4 hit limits.
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All of this reminded me of another important point: Always be moving.
Not only will it help you avoid kicks, but it will give you that all-important speed bonus. Slashing in the direction you are moving in can mean one less hit that you need to kill someone. Also, if someone is running at you and you are running towards them you can often 1-hit them with a running stab to the face.
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Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I try to at least explain again why percentages do not matter here. You must KILL your opponent, in as few hits as possible. This means that if your opponent has 60 HP, and you do 29 dmg, only 1 dmg point more will make the difference between 2 or 3 hits. It's only an increase of 3.3%, but if you have this increase, you will kill him in two hits, otherwise, he will have 2 HP left after your 2 hits and another chance to kill you.
This is where I think my build is located at, just a tiny bit beyond the limit, that allows a player using it to kill his opponents in 1 hit less (on average).
Also, I think that 15 AGI is another threshold for shielders. Below that, I get sidestepped and circled much easier than above it. And I already use light equipment, so I think THIS limit really shouldn't be lowered.
Now it would be helpful to actually have the stats of the average player (HP and armor), so you could really tweak your build for optimal average damage ratio.
On a side note...do you use heirloomed weapons? Because I think a 21/15 build with heirloomed Arabian Cavalry, Nordic Champion's or Military Cleaver might perform similar as a 24/15 with non-loomed stuff. As I said, looms can really make the difference, because 1h damage is very close to these 2 - 3 - 4 hit limits.
Again Zagibu this is not my opinion: its mathematics. And if you truly believe that just one point will make a difference, then this just further affirms using percentages. The fact is the higher the percentage increase in the build you choose the higher the probability of killing in the least possible of hits. This is not opinion this is just mathematical logic. What I am simply trying to suggest to you is that what you gain in attack power by going to a 24/15 from a 21/15 build is not worth it given what you lose in hit points.
Even if your assumption were true--and it is not--that just one hit point of damage can mean life or death, then what you gain in a higher probability of a one or two hit kill, is nothing compared in what your opponent gains in the ability to kill you in one or two hits. The fact remains that for every absolute point you gain by choosing a 25/15 build over a 21/15 build in strike power you loose almost three points in hit points. So this means that for each additional chance you get in killing someone quickly, by going from a 21/15 build to a 24/15 build, that someone gains 3 chances to kill you. If that is your idea of a good build, fine.
Nonetheless, the table proves that no one can serve two masters. If you believe that speed is important in a shielder then then a 21/15 build is better than the 24/15 build. If you believe that fire power is important then the 27/12 build is superior to the 24/15 build.
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Well, it's mathematics, but it's not as simple as calculating damage increase, HP increase, summing them together, and using this number as sole indicator of build efficacy. I see that I can't convince you, though, so I do not repeat my arguments again. I will say again, though, that 12 AGI is not enough for a shielder build. 15 AGI is the minimum, IMO.
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I am currently using the 24/15 and the biggest advantage is the early stages as u can get str faster.
In the end however it seems to me that 21/15 is better as well.
I would assume that 21/15 is better than 24/12 if you are a shielder, as 4 shield skill simply does not seem as enough.
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Its very important to use all swings as a 1h.
1h
Overhead = +0 reach Short and 90%goes in head.
Left-to-right = +0 reach Short but fast and 90% goes in head.
Right-to-left = +19 reach this swing almost allows you to reach all 2h/polearm users.
Thrust = +61 reach very good strike if enemy moves towards you.
This swings allows you to do different combinations. For example while fighting shield vs shield and using 1h sword.Y ou can hit enemy with
right-to-left then do few steps back(moving without attacking/blocking allows you to move faster). After one second do thrust. Enemy will charge forward and miss with his strike, but he will get thrust from you due to reach(+61) and bonus speed.To kill your enemy try to use different tricks,combinations and tactics.Dont be predictable. And of course you need at least 5 athletics.
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Well, it's mathematics, but it's not as simple as calculating damage increase, HP increase, summing them together, and using this number as sole indicator of build efficacy. I see that I can't convince you, though, so I do not repeat my arguments again. I will say again, though, that 12 AGI is not enough for a shielder build. 15 AGI is the minimum, IMO.
If you are dissassuaded by facts, fine. If you want to compare apple to oranges to elide my arguments, fine. If you feel that 12 agility is insufficient for a shielder, an assumption I share, fine.
However, the 21/15 build is still a better option than the 24/15 given the argument I have made previously: that the benefit you get in increased fire power is outweighed by an even larger decrease in survivalbility. To substantiate this argument I use mathematics--not my self-fufilling perceptions.
For thousand of years people thought the sun revolved around the Earth based on the perception that they saw the Sun rise in the east, and set in the west. Mathematics proved otherwise.
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I am currently using the 24/15 and the biggest advantage is the early stages as u can get str faster.
In the end however it seems to me that 21/15 is better as well.
I would assume that 21/15 is better than 24/12 if you are a shielder, as 4 shield skill simply does not seem as enough.
24/15 was actually my second build ever in this game. I feel that 21/15 is a better build also. The increase in damage is negligible and you lose a LOT of hitpoints in a 24/15 build.
For example, my masterworked Italian sword does 33 swing damage. An 8% damage increase is only a 2.64 damage increase. That's before the enemy's armor is factored in. I would personally rather have the additional hitpoints than a couple extra points of damage. Your speed bonus is far more important anyway.
However, a 24/12 build is entirely feasible and works quite well. When I'm leveling my shielder I go to 12/12 then 21/12 then 21/15. So I spend a lot of time with only 4 shield skill. I would use a 24/12 build myself, but I need the 5 shield skill for Strategus. One thing though, I do use a masterworked heavy round shield which does make a difference. If you were going to use a build like that I would use the Knightly Heater. Great shield.
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My build atm with level 31.
Strength 15
Agility 22
One Handed 164 WPF
Iron Flesh 5
Power Strike 5
Shield 7
Athletics 6
Weapon Master 7
I used the military pick ever since i started crpg so my builds have revolved around pierce damage, which allows me to have less STR and PS and more AGI with ATH, SHD and WPM pumped up.
Works well for me as i find my speed is alot higher than other shielders and huscarls lasts much much longer. I recently changed to use steel pick and have found that although the length is much shorter i still do just as well as i did with my beloved military pick.
As you can see in all the other builds if you want to use cut damage go with more PS but with pierce stats elsewhere are just as good.
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Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)
I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.
would 18/18 be better?
This is the $64,000 question. Agility is important: it increases your foot work speed and your attack speed via wpf. So even though a 21/15 build will provide you will increased fire power as well as higher hit points, it comes at the cost of a higher fire power variance, lower swing speed, lower running speed, and lower shield rating. In a game with unnatural agility whores that can moon walk around their opponets as they spam way counter-attack speed is an issue. This silly technique is the reason that two handers appear to be so much faster than shielders when in reality they are not. This technique just allows the two hander to increase the shielder's counter attack distance while his attacking distance remains the same.
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This is the $64,000 question. Agility is important: it increases your foot work speed and your attack speed via wpf. So even though a 21/15 build will provide you will increased fire power as well as higher hit points, it comes at the cost of a higher fire power variance, lower swing speed, lower running speed, and lower shield rating. In a game with unnatural agility whores that can moon walk around their opponets as they spam way counter-attack speed is an issue. This silly technique is the reason that two handers appear to be so much faster than shielders when in reality they are not. This technique just allows the two hander to increase the shielder's counter attack distance while his attacking distance remains the same.
Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.
There are also many successful players with no agi whatsoever and don't get flanked or outspammed. With the current iteration of this game, str builds outperform agi builds.
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Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.
There are also many successful players with no agi whatsoever and don't get flanked or outspammed. With the current iteration of this game, str builds outperform agi builds.
Swinging a bit faster isn't just to outspam the enemy, it makes manual blocking harder for them.
I find it rather easy to block a long and slow polearm. Even if I miss my block, I can still correct it in time. But when fighting a much faster weapon I can't do that and I have less time to react. I make more mistakes.
Other than that, I agree with most you've said.
My 2 cents on topic:
24/15 is great, but has distinct disadvantages. Works best in low armour, which makes you vulnerable to getting 2 shot by archers or taking 25% damage from a horse bump. This build is best used at level 31.
21/15 is a very good build. Great damage and enough speed. Gets too slow when you wear heavy armour.
18/18 is a nice allround build. Good speed on foot and good weapon speed. Damage isn't a problem, especially when using blunt/pierce damage or a masterwork sword.
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27/15 Only if you know how to work it. :lol:
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Swinging a bit faster isn't just to outspam the enemy, it makes manual blocking harder for them.
I find it rather easy to block a long and slow polearm. Even if I miss my block, I can still correct it in time. But when fighting a much faster weapon I can't do that and I have less time to react. I make more mistakes.
That has to do with weapon speed more than anything though. Going from 139 wpf to 156 is only about a 1% swing speed increase. According to Walt's calculations that should only change the swing speed by milliseconds. Too slight a change for us to even notice.
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If you are dissassuaded by facts, fine. If you want to compare apple to oranges to elide my arguments, fine. If you feel that 12 agility is insufficient for a shielder, an assumption I share, fine.
However, the 21/15 build is still a better option than the 24/15 given the argument I have made previously: that the benefit you get in increased fire power is outweighed by an even larger decrease in survivalbility. To substantiate this argument I use mathematics--not my self-fufilling perceptions.
For thousand of years people thought the sun revolved around the Earth based on the perception that they saw the Sun rise in the east, and set in the west. Mathematics proved otherwise.
I actually wanted to ignore you, but your high nose quite annoys me. Do you really want me to challenge your so-called mathematics? Unlike you, I actually know what a mathematical proof is, and your table has nothing to do with it. Maybe it would matter in the slightest, if health and armor were evenly distributed among the player base, but even then, one would have to imagine many unproven pre-assumptions to make your data relevant at all.
I am NOT challenging your 21/15 build. I have included it in the guide. However, your simple table does NOT prove it is a superior build than 24/15. All it does is show the percentual variations in damage and health compared to other builds, then build a sum of it. If this is your idea of a mathematical proof, you should really get some more courses about the matter. Also, you might want to read up about the heliocentric hypothesis. It is not proven. It is the currently accepted system, because all other systems involve much more complicated calculations and are a less accurate model of all observations (especially star parallaxes are hard to explain in other models). But it is not proven. So your claim that mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth is not only stupid, it is also wrong.
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Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.
Well I don't see how this disagrees with what I said. I current build 21.15 and I would like to try 24.12. However, your statement that, "athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor," is quite the opposite.
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I actually wanted to ignore you, but your high nose quite annoys me. Do you really want me to challenge your so-called mathematics? Unlike you, I actually know what a mathematical proof is, and your table has nothing to do with it. Maybe it would matter in the slightest, if health and armor were evenly distributed among the player base, but even then, one would have to imagine many unproven pre-assumptions to make your data relevant at all.
I am NOT challenging your 21/15 build. I have included it in the guide. However, your simple table does NOT prove it is a superior build than 24/15. All it does is show the percentual variations in damage and health compared to other builds, then build a sum of it. If this is your idea of a mathematical proof, you should really get some more courses about the matter. Also, you might want to read up about the heliocentric hypothesis. It is not proven. It is the currently accepted system, because all other systems involve much more complicated calculations and are a less accurate model of all observations (especially star parallaxes are hard to explain in other models). But it is not proven. So your claim that mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth is not only stupid, it is also wrong.
Please relax. Lets not make this personal. However, are you suggesting that Kepler's laws of planetary motion did not advance the heliocentric hypothesis, or that you do not believe that the Earth does revolve around the sun?
And the beauty of my table is that has minimal assumptions so the data speaks to you rather you speak to the data.
Once again you have elided my argument: that what you get in increased fire power, you lose in survivability, ceteris paribus
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I have already posted my arguments. I won't repeat them. Also, what I believe is irrelevant to whether the statement "mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth" is pure garbage or not. Kepler's laws also don't change the fact that the heliocentric system, which is the best system making the fewest assumptions and providing the best explanations for how the planets move, is unproven, and will remain it.
If you continue this "discussion", I will not answer you again, except over PM, we have derailed this thread enough.
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Here is my build at a glance.
18/18 is the best way to go.
150 one handed
6 PS
6 IF
5 Shields
6 WM
6 Athletics
50 polearm for anti cav on cav maps.
MW One handed Broad Axe for unarmored and going against shields. Does awesome damage to horses after they have been stopped. Never glances on people after it has been MW'd.
MW warhammer for plated 2h's or 1h's that do not have a shield.
Awlpike for cav maps. Ditch the warhammer but keep the axe. Use a heavy norman shield instead of a huscarl.
This build has always worked for me. It does wonders. The only advice I can give is to use the warhammer for plated 2 handers because it has 4 attacks instead of only 3. Picks only have 3 so they are easier to manual block. Also the warhammer does not knockback like the pick does. The knockdown however is way more worth it with the warhammer.
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Good build but go 6 shield and 5 IF, shieldskill increases the forcefield
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Good build but go 6 shield and 5 IF, shieldskill increases the forcefield
Yeah but I wear really heavy armor so I figure the extra hp would be more worth it for me.
I mean either way I am sure I can make it work. It is not like I am not at the top of every scoreboard.
At 31 I just throw the point into shields but then I just retire anyways.
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Now that my level 27 is currently 21/12, I might experiment with 24/12 and see how it goes. I want to really try out a lot of the 4-level shields a lot more.
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Now that my level 27 is currently 21/12, I might experiment with 24/12 and see how it goes. I want to really try out a lot of the 4-level shields a lot more.
4 shield skill, athletics and WM is more than enough to get the job done. Just grab yourself a Knightly Heater and kick some ass!
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ZULU!
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last gen i went 15-21 with 7 shield skill and 7 ath. I must say it worked very well my shield (heavy norman) never broke and i could get the better of most shielders purely because i was that much faster.
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im all about the 12-24. 8ath 8wm 8shield 4ps 1if 172wpf
its not a very forgiving build when you make mistakes, but if you know what you are doing, you can fight multiple opponents at a time and either survive a long time, or win. also excellent for team play and slaughtering archers who think they can kite you.
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I'm currently leveling a shielder and I can say that 4 PS glances SO much more than 5 PS.
4 PS glances on just about anything that resembles an armor. Dunno how 4 PS works out for you, but it sure as hell didn't work for me.
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I'm currently leveling a shielder and I can say that 4 PS glances SO much more than 5 PS.
4 PS glances on just about anything that resembles an armor. Dunno how 4 PS works out for you, but it sure as hell didn't work for me.
Depends a lot on the weapon you're using. The axes work well, or the slash only swords, or any of the blunt or pierce weapons. I have a 13/24 shielder and I don't think he ever glances with the military hammer.
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yup. i use masterwork grosse messer or mighty broad one handed battle axe. you need high cut or blunt or pierce. steel pick is a good one for sure.
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Hm I guess that could be the reason, I was using a low cut damage sword.
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Oh, never saw that thread...
Well, after a lot of generations testing for the best 1h/shiled build for me, I actually found the "24/15 without IF"-build mid-january. I'm the player who gears up (with a multiplier equal or higher than 3) with my Lordly Transi and best stuff all around and then mostly being seen to be the first in contact with the enemy line when it comes down to linebattle. Wading through the enemies, leaving first line for my companions to kill and meanwhile cleaning up the back from ranged fools. :D Very good build to play aggressively imo. As I'm not into short weapons, I'm still using my Nordic Champions most of the time, so I need as much power as I can get for my hits.
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Aren't you a bit slow in transitional, though? Ever tried lighter gear?
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In many ways, i'm like Lansamur.
Heavy armored shielder to hold our line or break through the enemies. Designed to be effective under alot of pressure, and able to withstand a whole lot of pain.
Taking light armor usually resorts in me dying too early.
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Same as Ramses and Lansamur, 7 IF and heavy armor works great in clusterfuck fight, I prefer weapon with high speed and good lenght, now using Elite Scimitar but I tried Niuweidao (shorter but insane speed and damage), Nordic Champion Sword ( a bit slow for me) and Axe (which I think are better for defensive playstyle).
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Great guide--I very well may try out the 24/15 build, though my reasons differ from others in so far as I am a 1h/shield cavalry player. The ability to 1shot kill my targets is essential, because I've only got one chance. The extra HP may help me survive the arrows and slashes to my feet better.
Regarding armor: it depends. Sometimes I want to tank it up and cut bitches. Sometimes I wanna float like a butterfly and sting like a bee with light armor and a scimitar.
Anyway, I have another protip. The overhead slash is excelent at dehorsing charging cavalry, though it requires good timing and a quick side-step away from the horseman's lance. I'm amazed at how many ponies I can kill by simply standing in the open and waiting for somebody to come at me (bro).
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Aren't you a bit slow in transitional, though? Ever tried lighter gear?
That's the good thing: I'm not really. I can easily compete with same builds or even agi-builds, either because I deal way more damage, or sometimes because I had better timing. If he starts the same time as me, he might beat me, but tbh, when does that ever happen? It all comes down to timing. Back-Hand slash to the head onehits most of my opponents there.
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That's the good thing: I'm not really. I can easily compete with same builds or even agi-builds, either because I deal way more damage, or sometimes because I had better timing. If he starts the same time as me, he might beat me, but tbh, when does that ever happen? It all comes down to timing. Back-Hand slash to the head onehits most of my opponents there.
nah its like that he takes 5-6hits and 1hits the other shielder if he makes an error like strenght build vs agj builds.. :D
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with the current metagame you can't take 5 hits, except from a low str 1 hander, it happens to me to be 1 hit or 1shot, quite lame
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i know was just joking, if you have the timing, know your weapon well (reach etc) you can play fine with heavier armour. But well i Prefer a more agj based build like 18/18 or 18/21 with less weapon master.
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with the current metagame you can't take 5 hits, except from a low str 1 hander, it happens to me to be 1 hit or 1shot, quite lame
Well, I had several "wtf"-moments when I needed 5 hits (with 8 PS) on another shielder (and there were no glances) in mid-tier gear. It can happen. Fortunately, most people bounce or glance off my armor, that's another reason why I'm wearing it most times. It let's me ignore most hits, and when it's finally time to concentrate on the real fight and not just pushing through like a wegde, I still have more than half my HP, which is enough to kill 3 people at least, when I've a good run that is and don't fuck up.
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Umm, just one question.
Some of the other shielder know a nasty trick. If i use the rule of thumb "wait for the clank", then i catch an instant hit when i try to swing back.
When i try to evade this hits, it looks like a common feint combo, but shouldn´t there some kind of a hit stun, if the blade hits my shield?
Anyway, how does this work?
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Umm, just one question.
Some of the other shielder know a nasty trick. If i use the rule of thumb "wait for the clank", then i catch an instant hit when i try to swing back.
When i try to evade this hits, it looks like a common feint combo, but shouldn´t there some kind of a hit stun, if the blade hits my shield?
Anyway, how does this work?
I'm guessing it's a combination of lag and your opponent turning into their hits.
A big advantage of 2h is that their high damage means they rarely glance. Because of that, they can turn into their hits much more than a 1h could.
When you attack and move your mouse at the same time, you'll hit much earlier in your swing. With a 1h you'll often glance, but not with a 2h.
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27/15 Only if you know how to work it. :lol:
Oh balls thats something you got there, but no IF avaible eh?
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Nope just good old 9 PS/5 Ath/3 Shield.
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Umm, just one question.
Some of the other shielder know a nasty trick. If i use the rule of thumb "wait for the clank", then i catch an instant hit when i try to swing back.
When i try to evade this hits, it looks like a common feint combo, but shouldn´t there some kind of a hit stun, if the blade hits my shield?
Anyway, how does this work?
The wait for the clank rule is only for new shielders to avoid falling for feints. I don't think you have to do it, Mala, as you are quite fast with canceling your own swings.
I also think this "trick" you talk about is due to movement/turning. If they do a left to right swing, turn right and move around you on your right side, they will hit VERY early in their animation, which, with a fast weapon like the steel pick, might be fast enough to hit before your return swing. In theory, the hit should glance/whiff, because it is too early in the animation, but I guess the formula which is responsible for glances is not perfect. On the other hand, you never wear a helmet, so I think that's the reason why they don't glance on you at least...
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24/12
8 Power Strike
8 Iron Flesh
4 athletics/weapon master
Very light armor (7.7 effective weight)
Beautiful. I'm really loving this, even with a short weapon like the steel pick. Light armor and 4 athletics would still make one very fast. You have to approach with many more right swings for the extra length, but it doesn't matter if they block since you're inside anyways. I like all of the short weapons and the elite scimitar a lot.
I am more tempted to go even higher with strength to 9 max with the heater shield now that we can respec. The iron flesh is essential for archers who sometimes hit past your shield, or so you can take that extra hit. My non-heirloomed knightly heater shield can take more than enough punishment.
In addition, when your shield breaks, you begin to move insanely quick. I am fine scavenging for shields or even without one if there are no archers.
It definitely takes a dedicated 1h/shield build to make this work, but it is very rewarding. If you make use of speed bonus, head swings, and footwork, you can deal a lot of damage with very few glances, while avoiding attacks. You're quick enough to avoid attacks on strength builds and get in without them even hitting your shield.
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8 Power Strike
steel pick.
You sir, might be the biggest douchebag in the world.
you can deal a lot of damage with very few glances
And also a noob.
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Hello, im new here and loving this game and mod. Question i have and sorry if its been raised before (i couldn't find it) this guide is based on a level 30, if im leveling up the old fashioned way from level 1 rather than instant 30, is there any particular order i should go on what stats to raise first that would help at lower levels?
eg should i put more into shield earlier rather than athletics weaponmaster etc early on, or is it best to just to spread the points equally amongst all these from the start?
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Depends on what you want and how you play if you are decent at blocking id say go STR first but if you'd rather you shield for protection go AGIL.
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Focus on STR until you can use decent gear, then bring Shield skill up to 3, and catch up with the rest.
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You sir, might be the biggest douchebag in the world.
And also a noob.
Well excuuuse me, Princess. Way to indiscriminately flame. Nice contribution to the topic at hand, also. The point of the post was that you can use a higher strength/lower agi build and really short weapon with light armor. No need to pick (no pun intended) at every word and misconstrue it as negative as possible.
Anyways, I think shielders can have a wide variation in builds they can utilize, which was pretty surprising for me in the past. I didn't like the heaters much until I ended up solely using them in one of my 4 shield skill builds.
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I'm returning to shielding for the first time since the upkeep patch. My old characters are wiped, meaning that I'm gen 1 once again. Which is the best thing to heirloom, my weapon or my shield?
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A MW weapon will grant you +1 speed and +3 damage.
A MW shield gives you +4 armor, +53 hp and +3 speed.
By the numbers you get more value from a shield heirloom, but I still think weapon heirlooms are the way to go. I'd take being able to kill a guy slightly faster over taking two more hits on my shield any day.
That said, my shield was the second thing I MW. :D
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Weapon, then shield.
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Weapon, then armour.
Allthough I must say, masterpiece knightly heater shield does sound sexy.
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I have only brought my weapon to masterwork recently, and would probably do armor next before shields.
Shields are way too plentiful on the battlefield in good condition. You can easily scavenge other shields when yours breaks.
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Weapon and armor heirlooms help you in every fight. Shield heirlooms only help you in the fight where your shield would otherwise break.
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Shield speed improvement also helps.
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I have only brought my weapon to masterwork recently, and would probably do armor next before shields.
Shields are way too plentiful on the battlefield in good condition. You can easily scavenge other shields when yours breaks.
San, I've seen you with an awlpike before. Do you have any points in polearms, or is that a waste? Anyways, you and your pick are a terrifying sight to behold.
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I was inspired to use the awlpike by some ATS users who I've seen use it with great effectiveness.
It is useful in cav-infested maps so you aren't dead weight against the swarms of cavalry, and to support infantry in situations where you and your 1h will only crowd space/get teamwounded. You stop the cav with the awlpike, switch to your 1h weapon while possibly shielding their stab/slash, then slash the horse's head.
I have 1 wpf in polearm, and it is perfectly usable in those situations. The new patch really increased its upkeep (and low wpf means increased breaking frequency), so it's a lot more situational now.
In general, if you have extra slots, it's definitely helpful to have a cheap secondary weapon for niche uses. Some people recommend an axe to deal with other shielders, or a long weapon in conjunction with a short+powerful weapon. 1h has more options in this regard (if you aren't hybridizing ranged).
Thanks for the compliment, I'm only an okay player at the moment.
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So I know that one part of shield skill is that it helps with just a flat reduction of damage done, leading to that 13 shield unbreaking thing. But does shield skill actually still increase coverage area? With 5 shield skill I already block all the way from head to toe, would getting 7 increase the side blocking of it also?
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It does, yes. A long time it was suggested that the devs reduce the amount Shield skill increases the block area of a shield because of "forcefield" complaints, but they said that this is actually hardcoded and couldn't be changed: it works just as it does in Native.
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It does, yes. A long time it was suggested that the devs reduce the amount Shield skill increases the block area of a shield because of "forcefield" complaints, but they said that this is actually hardcoded and couldn't be changed: it works just as it does in Native.
They reduced the forcefield in April. Shielding has never been the same again since then imo.
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They reduced the forcefield in April. Shielding has never been the same again since then imo.
I don't have any problems when fighting with my shield. You just have to adjust your fighting style a bit when you're using a smaller shield.
I use the knightly heater shield and I block with it the same way I would manual block, I turn to the direction I'm blocking. Changing just that really negated the "hitting behind a shield" problem for me.
Don't really have trouble with ranged either, unless I'm being shot at from the sides/back :P
Since most duels don't last very long, my shield usually doesn't break, but when it does I don't bother picking up another one. I just manual block until I die or the round ends.
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Protip: take an awlpike with you for anti cav purposes, they cant touch you!
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b]If you wield a sword with stab, make use of it.[/b] The stab can be a good duel starter. Most 2h/pole will expect you to block their first swing, so with good timing, you can get a stab in. If you do, don't follow it up with another strike, as the stab needs longer to recover from as other swings. A stab in general is a risky move, though, because if not properly timed, it has a high chance of glancing off. You can also try to get even more reach by jumping before the stab. This way you might also hit their head more easily, which often results in a 1-hit kill.
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Nice guide i believe, but that part is just wrong. As a rule, if you hit once, you keep hitting until the other guy blocks. That is for any kind of weapon. Its a harcoded dynamic ingame. It doesnt matter if it is a swing or a stab. If you hit you keep trying to do so. The stab takes time to recover if you dont hit the enemy. But if you hit him, the stunt he gets its longer than your recovery time, so not trying to hit him again is just doing bad fighting. Btw you are missing some key movements for a shielder. For instance, ill try to explain a very very suscefull tactic against anyone. Footwork is very important. A good shielder will always try to exploit his shorter weapon against any enemy. One of my favourite tactics is the double swing or even better the swing+stab which is deadly and still amazes me ppl die for it. Double swing is very easy. Its just about swinging the sword at its max reach, failing the swing, yes you read right, Most guys will try to hit you in the very exact moment your swing fails. What they dont realize is that the game is designed in such way that if the first swing doesnt hit, the second will be faster than the enemy. This means, your second swing will hit the target while he is still doing his first. As a rule you have to keep yourself at max reach so he eats your second swing. The swing+stab is similar, but like twice harder and deadly. This tactic can be used both with a miss or with a first hit. Its like the faked double swing but the final movement is a stab in the face. This technic also works against less skilled players even if they had blocked the first swing but its very dangerous. Its easy, let that enemy come to you and in the exact moment just swing your sword at its max reach, as the sword is reaching the edge of the swing, side step to the left side while you turn your body to the right and backpedal. Then you sudently turn your mouse of the left and stab while moving forward. Most times he will get a nice stab in the face or chest. All these arent done as single movements but combos. I mean, you actually dont wait to see if the first hit or not. You perform it as a sequence, if you dont you will fail. Salute.
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Good tips. And you are right about the successful stab not taking long to recover, I'll change it in the guide.
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Gah, hit quote instead of modify.
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Espada and Long Espada really are OP on a good day with the knightly kite shield.
Awesome fun, those weapons.
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I wouldn't say they're OP. You trade in swing damage for thrust damage. Seems balanced to me. Also, thrusting is harder than swinging.
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I meant OP as in extremely bad ass..... :P
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I thought so, just clarified it for those who don't use OP incorrectly.
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This could use some bolded text to divide different subjects.
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Didn't read it in the OP you may want to add. Shield bump ranged. Run straight into them with your shield up.
Its always sad when a shielder charges an xbow and at the last second tried to hit them only to be shot in the face.
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Well, the shield bump is not that good anymore.
Since a few updates you nearly have to clip into the ranged fighters until they get stunned.
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there's an animation when they are stunned tho, you'll know it when you do it.
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I know, but before the great shield nerfs they got stunned a bit earlier.
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Mala and her shield. Birth control in the middle ages.
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Most xbow guys can shoot thru ur shield before they get "stunned" by it :P
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- Cav is your weakness. You only have short weapons.....
If they have a long spear/lance yes, you dont have much of a chance - But, if they have two handed or a shortspear, I can usually get a stab in on the horse with my Long Espada, this works very well.
Even if the cav has a lance/long spear, you can still attack him. If you have a buddy, and he is standing behinde you, ready to stab, you can block the cavs attack, and let your buddy stab - this works well too.
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If they have a long spear/lance yes, you dont have much of a chance - But, if they have two handed or a shortspear, I can usually get a stab in on the horse with my Long Espada, this works very well.
Even if the cav has a lance/long spear, you can still attack him. If you have a buddy, and he is standing behinde you, ready to stab, you can block the cavs attack, and let your buddy stab - this works well too.
1. If you don't kill the horse, the rider will then kill you.
2. short spear on horseback? How often do you see those?
3. How many cavalry (proper ones) are going to try and kill you when there's someone waiting for them with a long pointy stick.
there's an animation when they are stunned tho, you'll know it when you do it.
There's a nasty little trick archers have now. Aim in about 90 degree angle sideways from the incomming shielder. Then, just before he clips in you, you quicly turn to the shielder and release the arrow. When you time it right, you bypass the shield and hit the shielder, even when he has his shield up.
Happened to me a few times now. Timing is crucial, if you do it too early you hit the shield and you're dead. Do it too late and you get bumped.
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1. If you don't kill the horse, the rider will then kill you.
2. short spear on horseback? How often do you see those?
3. How many cavalry (proper ones) are going to try and kill you when there's someone waiting for them with a long pointy stick.
1: Depends, often you just get knocked over - ofcourse, if the guy is on a plated charger, then you shouldn't get in the way ofcourse. Even if you don't kill the horse, the horse will often stagger(right word?) and stop.
2: I often see people with onehand/short weapons on horseback, or horse archer who thinks they can bump you.
3: There are no long pointy stick, only another with a long one hander - that is why the cav will charge in the first place. Im not saying this will work 100%, but me and my buddy have had some succes in executing this manoeuvre.
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These days even the average player kickslash so.
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There's a nasty little trick archers have now. Aim in about 90 degree angle sideways from the incomming shielder. Then, just before he clips in you, you quicly turn to the shielder and release the arrow. When you time it right, you bypass the shield and hit the shielder, even when he has his shield up.
Happened to me a few times now. Timing is crucial, if you do it too early you hit the shield and you're dead. Do it too late and you get bumped.
Hmm thanks for the heads up, something to watch for. I guess the way to defeat that is to switch up your timing a bit, pause for a split second a foot away, or maybe jump at the end.
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The kick range is actually longer. Might be an option.
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There's a nasty little trick archers have now. Aim in about 90 degree angle sideways from the incomming shielder. Then, just before he clips in you, you quicly turn to the shielder and release the arrow. When you time it right, you bypass the shield and hit the shielder, even when he has his shield up.
I wondered why archers kept doing that! It didn't seem to make sense. Turning sideways is the new jumping in the air and turning round... they even seem to do it if your character doesn't have a shield, out of habit.
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I love the guide but I have 2 questions...
1. Does athletics make you swing faster?
2. I love heavy armor any tips for me then?
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I love the guide but I have 2 questions...
1. Does athletics make you swing faster?
2. I love heavy armor any tips for me then?
1. Athletics doesn't technically make you swing faster. You swing speed is somewhat affected by WPF. However, having higher athletics allows you better footwork to where you can position yourself to hit earlier in an attack.
2. Heavy armor is often a liability especially as a shielder. Your shield already slows you down a lot. You're much better off being lighter on your feet and using your shield.
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OR, not using a shield :P
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OR, not using a shield :P
Best way to play 1-hander imo.
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You can don heavy armor and fight multiple enemies, always strike at the one who least expects it. Just don't duel in heavy armor + shield, because they will simply evade all your swings until your shield breaks, then kill you.
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You can don heavy armor and fight multiple enemies, always strike at the one who least expects it. Just don't duel in heavy armor + shield, because they will simply evade all your swings until your shield breaks, then kill you.
That would only work against terrible players. As a 1-hander it's going to take you longer to kill people than say a 2-hander or polearm user. Use also move slower because of your shield. Wearing heavy armor you move even slower. Because of this, it's easy to find yourself outnumbered. Then, someone can easily circle behind you and you get stunned to death.
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not to sure that is fully true Spoon.
Watch me in battle when i am fighting 2 or more. Generally I push on the one I think will start to backpedal. I get them going away from me with the shield up. Then spin and attack the person coming up behind. I would say agianst most players I land a solid hit. I get a good percetage of my kills doing screwy stuff like that. Def timing involved but easier then you would think, and I manage it with Iberian mace so it can be done with a slower short weapon.
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not to sure that is fully true Spoon.
Watch me in battle when i am fighting 2 or more. Generally I push on the one I think will start to backpedal. I get them going away from me with the shield up. Then spin and attack the person coming up behind. I would say agianst most players I land a solid hit. I get a good percetage of my kills doing screwy stuff like that. Def timing involved but easier then you would think, and I manage it with Iberian mace so it can be done with a slower short weapon.
I do it all the time myself, but neither of us wear heavy armor. The comment was more about wearing heavy armor as a shielder.
I think wearing heavy armor as a shielder is a good way to get wrecked by half-decent players.
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I think having medium to even medium-light body armor, while having good gloves, helm, and shoes help maximize the armor-weight ratio.
The only drawback is the heavier penalty to your effective wpf due to the weight-wpf-reduction multipliers on armors other than shoes and body.
As long as proper footwork prevents you from being 1-2 shot in whatever gear you have, you're doing alright imo.
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I was in lordly heavy Kuyak there for a while. Sort of on the heavy side.
Traded it away for a lordly heraldic mail to shed a few lbs.
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Downgraded my armor from Sarranid Guard Armor (46 armor, 14.5 weight) to Byrnie(36 armor, 8.6 weight) with heavy armor, gloves, and decent shoes and couldn't tell much of a difference from before. I could still tank quite a few hits since I would rarely get 1shot due to the heavy helmet.
Still pretty slow when I have the shield on, though, even though I have like 7 less weight.
Probably reinforces my earlier belief that medium range is the way to go. I prefer the heavier side of the spectrum in the end, though.
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Downgraded my armor from Sarranid Guard Armor (46 armor, 14.5 weight) to Byrnie(36 armor, 8.6 weight) with heavy armor, gloves, and decent shoes and couldn't tell much of a difference from before. I could still tank quite a few hits since I would rarely get 1shot due to the heavy helmet.
Still pretty slow when I have the shield on, though, even though I have like 7 less weight.
Probably reinforces my earlier belief that medium range is the way to go. I prefer the heavier side of the spectrum in the end, though.
I played around with a +3 byrnie and +3 plate mittens to reduce my weight while still keeping nice defence. Worked out nicely, but it was a bit expensive. Now I'm using +3 heraldic mail and +3 mail gauntlets and I still have nice defense, but the cost is lower. Speedwise, I hardly notice a difference.
I would only recommend using heavy gear in sieges, as there it really helps being able to tank a ton of hits.
Heavy board shield, milanese plate, plate mittens, cased greaves and a sugerloaf helmet. Combine that with a steel pick or something else fast/hard hitting and you can wade through waves of enemies. Watch em glance and tk while you keep delivering devestating head hits with your pick. Or just hold RMB and keep them entertained for the next minute as they try to break the shield.
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here is another tip for those who would like to be an off shielder. bring everything!
Why settle for one weapon type. Why settle for a single weapon when you can have one for each occasion!
Currently I carry my shield
MW simple sword (yeah I know haha but have you ever seen another person with it?)
Used for when i need speed over power or if the shield breaks and I go into duel mode
one handed battle axe
shield buster and decent cut damage
powerful iberian mace (can be switched for a pierce as well)
general all purpose weapon. Has good knock down and can hurt the tanks
Know the situation you are rushing into and make sure to either back pedal to get the room to switch weapons or do it early on the way in. Having the ability to adapt to what the situation brings is essential
ohay
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Everyone keeps asking my build so I am going to post it here since I am level 30.
Strength 21
Agility 15
Weapon proficiency
One Handed 146
Skills
Available points: 0
Iron Flesh 7
Power Strike 7
Shield 5
Athletics 5
Riding 0
Horse Archery 0
Power Draw 0
Power Throw 0
Weapon Master 5
DEFAULT GEAR LAYOUT:
Reinforced Red Gambeson
weight: 3.1
body armor: 25
leg armor: 9
Masterpiece Huscarl's Round Shield
weight: 9
body armor: 24
difficulty: 5
hit points: 453
speed rating: 83
shield width: 42
Can't use on horseback
Masterwork Elite Scimitar
weapon length: 100
weight: 1.2
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 100
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 34 cut
slots: 1
Mighty Broad One Handed Battle Axe
weapon length: 73
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 73
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut
slots: 1
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode
Mail Gauntlets
weight: 0.5
body armor: 4
difficulty: 7
Wrapping Boots
weight: 0
leg armor: 3
Head Wrapping
weight: 0
head armor: 3
Strategy:
I personally always run out by myself and prefer to not be by my teammates. Constantly use the terrain and buildings to get the upper hand on the enemy. Always try to get behind the enemy lines and set up 1v1's or 1v2's. Practice hitting horses running full speed at you using your right swing and over head with the elite scimitar. Learn to use hills and terrain to out maneuver your enemies and their cavalry. Use the alternate mode on your broad axe to open black plate or milanese plate. Stay away from horse bumps because they will destroy you. Also try to have patience in fights because you have a MW huscarl which is made to take a beating. Having patience is my hardest flaw to get over.
Results:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/487750912226995561/15975C770FAFE7D15313798992B83D4A88F49862/
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Use the alternate mode on your broad axe to open black plate or milanese plate.
Nice idea... but I checked the numbers and I am not sure whether that's a good idead. A Broad 1H Battle Axe has got 35 cut normal and 25 pierce damage secondary.
With 7 PS and 130 effective wpf and 75 enemy armor you deal
with 35 cut:
Minimum: 3
Average: 12.5
Maximum: 22
and with 25 pierce:
Minimum: 3
Average: 11.5
Maximum: 20
So it seems it is better not to use the secondary mode (and it's even one point slower).
Edit:
What about glancing? Do you glance often, if you use the normal mode with cut? Is it much less in secondary mode?
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Shouldn't make a difference.
The pierce mode is pretty useless.
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Shouldn't make a difference.
The pierce mode is pretty useless.
I thought pierce damage does more damage to the head or does that not matter anymore?
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Nice idea... but I checked the numbers and I am not sure whether that's a good idead. A +3 Broad 1H Battle Axe has got 35 cut normal and 25 pierce damage secondary.
With 7 PS and 130 effective wpf and 75 enemy armor you deal
with 35 cut:
Minimum: 3
Average: 12.5
Maximum: 22
and with 25 pierce:
Minimum: 3
Average: 11.5
Maximum: 20
So it seems it is better not to use the secondary mode (and it's even one point slower).
Edit:
What about glancing? Do you glance often, if you use the normal mode with cut? Is it much less in secondary mode?
A +3 has 38c and 28p
So it becomes worth it at about 55 armour
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Plus - though it looks like shit, is has style.
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A +3 has 38c and 28p
So it becomes worth it at about 55 armour
You are right, I used the stats of a normal axe.
So I did a calculation for a +3:
130 effective WPF, 7PS
38 Cut, 55 Armor:
Minimum: 10
Average: 22
Maximum: 34
38 Cut, 75 Armor:
Minimum: 4
Average: 14.5
Maximum: 25
28 Pierce, 55 Armor:
Minimum: 10
Average: 20
Maximum: 30
28 Pierce, 75 Armor:
Minimum: 4
Average: 13.5
Maximum: 23
I thought pierce damage does more damage to the head or does that not matter anymore?
I know that rumor. I tried to verify that with another player several months ago. I could not verify a higher damage.
Also info from cmp:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3128.msg55937.html#msg55937
Piercing weapons do triple damage to the head. 8-)
Nope, urban legend.
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That's interesting to know, one thing not showing up tho, and what I've heard & noticed myself (all anecdotal I know, but it seems to be true) is that pierce glances less against tincans.
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That's interesting to know, one thing not showing up tho, and what I've heard & noticed myself (all anecdotal I know, but it seems to be true) is that pierce glances less against tincans.
Nope. It all comes down to numbers.. If you beat the damage threshold for a glance, you won't glance. It's just that pierce damage generally deals more damage to plate and thus glances less.
So, when comparing 28 pierce with 28 cut, pierce does glance less. But in the case of the secondary mode of the B1HWA vs it's normal mode, there is hardly any difference.
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I guess it is all just psychological then that when I flip my axe to pierce secondary I only feel stronger vs. tincans, but am not actually :)
So devs please buff secondary pierce by +2 points so it is actually useful against high armour people.
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How about 27/12?
Recently dev team has talked about additional post lvl 31 retirement bonuses being implemented soon so I thought about advancing my shielder to 33 and then retiring. I have most of the looms I need in any case. Originally I thought about doing 24/15 to improve the hitting power of my last build 21/15 (was really pleased with that). But now I'm thinking that since 12 agi has been enough for me so why don't I go for ultimate strength build.
+3 Iberian Mace or +3 Elite Scimitar with 9PS sounds scary doesn't it? Additionally, I have +3 Knightly Heater so even with 4 Shield I should be able to take some hits without losing my shield. However, Ath concerns me. In siege 4 has been enough but how about battle, 4 Ath enough or am I gimping myself? I'd love to try this sort of "gimmick" build though.
Is there a significant difference between 9 PS and 8 PS for such weapons?
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There is a noticeable difference between 8 and 9 PS, however, the change from 4 to 5 athletics feels VERY significant.
27/12 was my first 1h build, then I respecced to 24/15. You're able to circle around opponents better and most builds can't backpedal against you if you are moving forward properly.
27/12 definitely isn't that bad, though, especially if you are comfortable in lighter armor. 24/15 is usable even in medium-heavy armor. 4 shield means you will get hit around slightly more, but it's more annoying that you can't pick whatever shield that's lying around.
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I think it can work with a long weapon. Poledancers will mostly dodge you, though. You will have to put the shield away quite frequently, I think.
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I've been playing as 24/12 for a while now and can confirm that in some situations 12 ath is enough. If you move with main host you can get quite a few kills with Iberian in the chaos. Whereas Elite Scimitar will work well when you have more room. I find myself using the latter more even though I love knockdown. However, it's hard for me to say how the build ranks up because most of my deaths seem to come due to my own stupidity and getting myself into bad combat situations. This true with all my builds. Sometimes I top the scoreboard, sometimes below mid ranks. I really need to develop consistency. :oops:Maybe the weakness of a strength build is that it is more limited in staying with the zerg host. And sometimes because of the lack of team work, such a host never forms. Recently I did rank 10/0 score though by just moving on my own or in small groups.
I don't think I'll be continuing this build to 27/12 though. I remember having more fun with agi builds. I might even become a better player by trying to become more like a duellist.
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I've been playing as 24/12 for a while now and can confirm that in some situations 12 ath is enough. If you move with main host you can get quite a few kills with Iberian in the chaos. Whereas Elite Scimitar will work well when you have more room. I find myself using the latter more even though I love knockdown. However, it's hard for me to say how the build ranks up because most of my deaths seem to come due to my own stupidity and getting myself into bad combat situations. This true with all my builds. Sometimes I top the scoreboard, sometimes below mid ranks. I really need to develop consistency. :oops:Maybe the weakness of a strength build is that it is more limited in staying with the zerg host. And sometimes because of the lack of team work, such a host never forms. Recently I did rank 10/0 score though by just moving on my own or in small groups.
I don't think I'll be continuing this build to 27/12 though. I remember having more fun with agi builds. I might even become a better player by trying to become more like a duellist.
This is the problem with STR builds, they are less flexible and more situation oriented in my opinion. That's why many people think STR builds are stronger in comparision to AGI builds, they always see STR builds in top scoreboards, but they do not look at the whole picture. For me, none is stronger than the other. They just have their own uses on the field. STR builds seem to favor close quarter combat, whereas AGI builds can pick their battle and can deal with the enemy missile foes more easily.
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The problem with Str on a shielder is sometimes they are too slow, and it is easy to see which direction they will swing in making it easier to parry than a 2h swing. I used more agi for mine so it could out swing most attacks as long as the footing is correct.
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The problem with Str on a shielder is sometimes they are too slow, and it is easy to see which direction they will swing in making it easier to parry than a 2h swing. I used more agi for mine so it could out swing most attacks as long as the footing is correct.
I agree here. I've always thought balanced builds were best with shielders. Though 24/15 and 12/24 can be incredibly viable depending on the gear you use. Still, anything less than 6 athletics makes me weep.
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Well I never think that a balanced build is something like 18/18 because the amount of Agility and Strength are equal, similiar to the thinking 18=18. I think every class has it's own balance place. For example: you can not say that a 18/18 is the most balanced build for a horse archer. A horse archer definitely needs more riding than that. For me, the most balanced HA build is 15/24 which gives you enough shooting power, manueverability, speed and accuracy.
For me, I think 21/15 is the most balanced shielder build. Anything that has more AGI or STR are specialists in my opinion. I think the word fitting best here would be the "equilibrium" to define what a balanced build is. Just my opinion on the matter.
Not replying to you rusty, you didn't say something different than what I say. Just generally speaking :)
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well ur advice to have gear under 10 weight is total crap. I am getting killed with on hit and i have 7 if. -.-
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Why do you get hit when you have a shield? Do you know about rightclick?
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I'm currently a 24/15 shielder with 8 power strike, 5 iron flesh, 5 shield, 5 athletics, 0 weapon master totalling about 30 weight - it's a perfectly viable build providing one's footwork is good and one knows when & whom to engage, will one shot most light to medium armour users with speed bonus, drop heavier foes in three to four hits with a 34 cut weapon.
Not great for chasing archers but excellent for soloing mobs.
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Why do you get hit when you have a shield? Do you know about rightclick?
well i never get in situations like 1vs1 i always get to situations like 2vs 20 or 1 vs 3 archers,so i will always get hit once or get one arrow in body.
This doesnt work,but with my lordly medium set,i am slow,but i am patient.
Yeah,hit me in shield 10 times,wound me 3 times,but i only need one hit to bring you down. That is my rocky playstyle.
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well i never get in situations like 1vs1 i always get to situations like 2vs 20 or 1 vs 3 archers,so i will always get hit once or get one arrow in body.
This doesnt work,but with my lordly medium set,i am slow,but i am patient.
Yeah,hit me in shield 10 times,wound me 3 times,but i only need one hit to bring you down. That is my rocky playstyle.
so you go the more tank kind of style?
I myself am doing 21-15 I find that with 6-7ps you still kill enemies fairly quickly, and honestly to me the scimmys are overrated because my Italian sword is just as fast as the elite scimmy but still gives the range and dmg I want plus it has a stab which to me is a good way to finish off enemies
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so you go the more tank kind of style?
I myself am doing 21-15 I find that with 6-7ps you still kill enemies fairly quickly, and honestly to me the scimmys are overrated because my Italian sword is just as fast as the elite scimmy but still gives the range and dmg I want plus it has a stab which to me is a good way to finish off enemies
It's not the stats that make the scimitar good, it's the model. It really wouldn't be worth much if its visible model had ANYTHING to do with its hitboxes. I honestly don't understand what it's still doing in this game.
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It's not the stats that make the scimitar good, it's the model. It really wouldn't be worth much if its visible model had ANYTHING to do with its hitboxes. I honestly don't understand what it's still doing in this game.
Yeah when I do use a scimmy it confuses ppl because they think they are out range but then that curved tip hits them
also I find when I have 5 athletics and where tunic over mail and using huscarl shield I still move ridiculously fast
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It is working out pretty good so far. Though I have no idea what to do next.
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Well, I don't think you can do anything else than either wait for level 34 and put 3 SP into riding, or put one into PT now.
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Only thing left is to put points into riding. If you put points into PT, you still won't be able to get much wpf just from increasing your level.
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Only thing left is to put points into riding. If you put points into PT, you still won't be able to get much wpf just from increasing your level.
Yeah but do I really want to stoop down to easy mode?
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Yeah but do I really want to stoop down to easy mode?
Having points in riding doesn't mean you have to ride a horse all the time. Stray horse roaming the map? Hop on it and give it to a more experienced cavalry player. Being able to scavange stray horses is pretty useful for Strategus battles, too.
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Yeah but do I really want to stoop down to easy mode?
Also, calling a stray horse so that it will run over the person you are fighting is always hilarious.
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Or you can steal a horse and use it as a taxi to get to your next preferred location quickly.
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Or you can steal a horse and use it as a taxi to get to your next preferred location quickly.
Grand Theft Horse.
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The sabres dont get a mention which sadddens me.
These weapons are incredible if you are willing to go 21/18 or 18/18. You can use a lighter shield to the same effect as a heavier one plenty of PS for non-stabbing 1H.
I use the second teir sabre( i forget its name). I strongly recomend these weapons for many reasons. Reach is nearly 90 so is still decent, damage is high especially for the weapons price (nomad sabre approx 1.5K does 29 cut), They have high speed 100+ as mentioned earlier, they air hit (even a small amount of air reach is worth it), They have curved blades again only slightly but poor hitboxes give your opponent less time to react.
21/18 is an optimized build sacrificing IF but again you shouldnt ever be taking hits until the shield is broken at which stage you must become a 2H with the advantage of speed and an ability to hit your opponents face.
When your shield breaks find another one or if you are half decent continue to fight without changing your style dont let your opponent sense your loss. A lot of shielders go into an aggressive frenzy when they lose their shields this might get a hit but wont last long. You have to be an enigma show no weakness and you will destroy any 2H. Remember without a shield you can now block while kicking with very little risk.
xbows are good but depending on cav concentration spears can be better, remember the reach of a spear is increased alot by using a shield at the same time. Go for the horses head not the rider. If they are 1H heavy cav use your 1H on the pilot if you think they are not expecting it.
As shielder you can take risks and deliver very heavy damage even at low levels (using maces).
At a low level dont use a shield for melee at all you wont be fast enough.
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Hear hear, excellent advice from the best Warband player in the world.
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Added disclaimer for current WM situation and popularity of more agi oriented shielder builds among experienced players.
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18/21 shield build is the build of gods.
mw elite cav shield with mw NCS and right swing spam other shielders and short 2h,facehug left swing,overhead to spam 2h,and stab,left swing for low armor ppl.
If playing defensive more armor,if playing offensive wear loomed medium armor or light armor.
If you wear light armor carry a spear always cuz cav will try to bump you for shure.
Stab only work if you stab horseman in the gel or if you are attacking low armored ppl in every other situation it will bounce.
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18/21 shield build is the build of gods.
mw elite cav shield with mw NCS and right swing spam other shielders and short 2h,facehug left swing,overhead to spam 2h,and stab,left swing for low armor ppl.
If playing defensive more armor,if playing offensive wear loomed medium armor or light armor.
If you wear light armor carry a spear always cuz cav will try to bump you for shure.
Stab only work if you stab horseman in the gel or if you are attacking low armored ppl in every other situation it will bounce.
NCS?
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NCS = Nordic Champion's Sword.
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cheers