Shielder (offensive)

[rustyspoon]

This is the $64,000 question. Agility is important: it increases your foot work speed and your attack speed via wpf. So even though a 21/15 build will provide you will increased fire power as well as higher hit points, it comes at the cost of a higher fire power variance, lower swing speed, lower running speed, and lower shield rating. In a game with unnatural agility whores that can moon walk around their opponets as they spam way counter-attack speed is an issue. This silly technique is the reason that two handers appear to be so much faster than shielders when in reality they are not. This technique just allows the two hander to increase the shielder's counter attack distance while his attacking distance remains the same.

Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.

There are also many successful players with no agi whatsoever and don't get flanked or outspammed. With the current iteration of this game, str builds outperform agi builds.

[Spawny]

Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.

There are also many successful players with no agi whatsoever and don't get flanked or outspammed. With the current iteration of this game, str builds outperform agi builds.

Swinging a bit faster isn't just to outspam the enemy, it makes manual blocking harder for them.
I find it rather easy to block a long and slow polearm. Even if I miss my block, I can still correct it in time. But when fighting a much faster weapon I can't do that and I have less time to react. I make more mistakes.

Other than that, I agree with most you've said.

My 2 cents on topic:
24/15 is great, but has distinct disadvantages. Works best in low armour, which makes you vulnerable to getting 2 shot by archers or taking 25% damage from a horse bump. This build is best used at level 31.
21/15 is a very good build. Great damage and enough speed. Gets too slow when you wear heavy armour.
18/18 is a nice allround build. Good speed on foot and good weapon speed. Damage isn't a problem, especially when using blunt/pierce damage or a masterwork sword.

[Socrates]

27/15 Only if you know how to work it. 

[rustyspoon]

Swinging a bit faster isn't just to outspam the enemy, it makes manual blocking harder for them.
I find it rather easy to block a long and slow polearm. Even if I miss my block, I can still correct it in time. But when fighting a much faster weapon I can't do that and I have less time to react. I make more mistakes.

That has to do with weapon speed more than anything though. Going from 139 wpf to 156 is only about a 1% swing speed increase. According to Walt's calculations that should only change the swing speed by milliseconds. Too slight a change for us to even notice.

[zagibu]

If you are dissassuaded by facts, fine. If you want to compare apple to oranges to elide my arguments, fine. If you feel that 12 agility is insufficient for a shielder, an assumption I share, fine.

However, the 21/15 build is still a better option than the 24/15 given the argument I have made previously: that the benefit you get in increased fire power is outweighed by an even larger decrease in survivalbility. To substantiate this argument I use mathematics--not my self-fufilling perceptions.

For thousand of years people thought the sun revolved around the Earth based on the perception that they saw the Sun rise in the east, and set in the west. Mathematics proved otherwise.

I actually wanted to ignore you, but your high nose quite annoys me. Do you really want me to challenge your so-called mathematics? Unlike you, I actually know what a mathematical proof is, and your table has nothing to do with it. Maybe it would matter in the slightest, if health and armor were evenly distributed among the player base, but even then, one would have to imagine many unproven pre-assumptions to make your data relevant at all.

I am NOT challenging your 21/15 build. I have included it in the guide. However, your simple table does NOT prove it is a superior build than 24/15. All it does is show the percentual variations in damage and health compared to other builds, then build a sum of it. If this is your idea of a mathematical proof, you should really get some more courses about the matter. Also, you might want to read up about the heliocentric hypothesis. It is not proven. It is the currently accepted system, because all other systems involve much more complicated calculations and are a less accurate model of all observations (especially star parallaxes are hard to explain in other models). But it is not proven. So your claim that mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth is not only stupid, it is also wrong.

[firmitas]

Kinda disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that 18 agi is a waste unless you want a slightly tougher shield or you want to use a steel shield. WPF itself also scales terribly and isn't a good investment. With 4 WM you get 139 WPF at level 30. With 6 WM you get 156. In actual play the difference is negligible. My polearm guy with 12 agi and a 90 speed weapon doesn't get outspammed. Also, athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor. There's not much difference between 4 and 6. An agi spammer won't be able to circle around you if you watch your footwork.

Well I don't see how this disagrees with what I said. I current build 21.15 and I would like to try 24.12. However, your statement that, "athletics doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing much armor," is quite the opposite.

[firmitas]

I actually wanted to ignore you, but your high nose quite annoys me. Do you really want me to challenge your so-called mathematics? Unlike you, I actually know what a mathematical proof is, and your table has nothing to do with it. Maybe it would matter in the slightest, if health and armor were evenly distributed among the player base, but even then, one would have to imagine many unproven pre-assumptions to make your data relevant at all.

I am NOT challenging your 21/15 build. I have included it in the guide. However, your simple table does NOT prove it is a superior build than 24/15. All it does is show the percentual variations in damage and health compared to other builds, then build a sum of it. If this is your idea of a mathematical proof, you should really get some more courses about the matter. Also, you might want to read up about the heliocentric hypothesis. It is not proven. It is the currently accepted system, because all other systems involve much more complicated calculations and are a less accurate model of all observations (especially star parallaxes are hard to explain in other models). But it is not proven. So your claim that mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth is not only stupid, it is also wrong.

Please relax. Lets not make this personal. However, are you suggesting that Kepler's laws of planetary motion did not advance the heliocentric hypothesis, or that you do not believe that the Earth does revolve around the sun?

And the beauty of my table is that has minimal assumptions so the data speaks to you rather you speak to the data.

Once again you have elided my argument: that what you get in increased fire power, you lose in survivability, ceteris paribus

[zagibu]

I have already posted my arguments. I won't repeat them. Also, what I believe is irrelevant to whether the statement "mathematics proved the sun doesn't revolve around the earth" is pure garbage or not. Kepler's laws also don't change the fact that the heliocentric system, which is the best system making the fewest assumptions and providing the best explanations for how the planets move, is unproven, and will remain it.

If you continue this "discussion", I will not answer you again, except over PM, we have derailed this thread enough.

[EyeBeat]

Here is my build at a glance.

18/18 is the best way to go.

150 one handed
6 PS
6 IF
5 Shields
6 WM
6 Athletics
50 polearm for anti cav on cav maps.

MW One handed Broad Axe for unarmored and going against shields.  Does awesome damage to horses after they have been stopped.  Never glances on people after it has been MW'd.

MW warhammer for plated 2h's or 1h's that do not have a shield.

Awlpike for cav maps.  Ditch the warhammer but keep the axe.  Use a heavy norman shield instead of a huscarl.

This build has always worked for me.  It does wonders.  The only advice I can give is to use the warhammer for plated 2 handers because it has 4 attacks instead of only 3.  Picks only have 3 so they are easier to manual block.  Also the warhammer does not knockback like the pick does.  The knockdown however is way more worth it with the warhammer. 

[Fluffy_Muffin]

Good build but go 6 shield and 5 IF, shieldskill increases the forcefield

[EyeBeat]

Good build but go 6 shield and 5 IF, shieldskill increases the forcefield

Yeah but I wear really heavy armor so I figure the extra hp would be more worth it for me.

I mean either way I am sure I can make it work.  It is not like I am not at the top of every scoreboard.

At 31 I just throw the point into shields but then I just retire anyways.

[San]

Now that my level 27 is currently 21/12, I might experiment with 24/12 and see how it goes. I want to really try out a lot of the 4-level shields a lot more.

[rustyspoon]

Now that my level 27 is currently 21/12, I might experiment with 24/12 and see how it goes. I want to really try out a lot of the 4-level shields a lot more.

4 shield skill, athletics and WM is more than enough to get the job done. Just grab yourself a Knightly Heater and kick some ass!

[King Shaka Zulu]

ZULU!

[Osiris]

last gen i went 15-21 with 7 shield skill and 7 ath. I must say it worked very well my shield (heavy norman) never broke and i could get the better of most shielders purely because i was that much faster.