Shielder (offensive)

[San]

Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)

I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.

would 18/18 be better?

[rustyspoon]

Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)

I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.

would 18/18 be better?

No. You REALLY won't notice a difference between 5 and 6 especially if you're wearing armor. Really you only have to facehug to use those weapons well. That's also the reason why I don't use them. They take away too much of your maneuverability if you need to facehug to be effective.

[Rhygar666]

No. You REALLY won't notice a difference between 5 and 6 especially if you're wearing armor. Really you only have to facehug to use those weapons well. That's also the reason why I don't use them. They take away too much of your maneuverability if you need to facehug to be effective.

you also need to block more, take like 1 or 2 hits against your shield till youre in range, so its gets more damaged/breakes more, i wouldnt use those short weapons for that build

[zagibu]

I actually don't like your build in comparison to other builds:

For a 30 level character with max WPF for one handed weapon, and a weapon giving 30 points of cut damage on a 10 level armor you get the following table:

Str/Agi   PS.IF   Dam   HP    Dam Ch  HP.Gain        Tot.Gain

18/18     6.6     42     65      0            0                   0

21/15     7.7     45     70     7.14%    7.69%           14.84%

24/12     8.8     47     75     11.90%  15.38%           27.29%

24/15     8.0     48     59     14.29%   -9.23%           5.05%

27/12     9.2     50     66     19.05%   1.54%           20.59%

All these percentage gains and loses are versus the 18/18 build. In order words this exercise measures the average damage and Hit Points capacity you gain or lose with the different PS, IF, and WPF combination each build yields in relation to the original 18/18 build.

If you were to compare the 21/15 to the 24/15 build you would see that even though you gain 6.67 percent of more damage capacity with your build, you nonetheless lose 15.71 percent in Hit Points. This net commutative loss of 9.05 percent comes with no increase in other attributes: you will not run any faster, you will not have better shields. Yes you will swing faster, but almost immeasurably.

No if you are going to sacrifice 8 skills points I would go with the 27/12 build. Your attack power increases dramatically, your hit points marginally, and your swing strike speed minimally. Yes, running speed is your main casualty--you should run twenty percent slower if I am extrapolating WaltF4's findings correctly, but then again, if you like speed you should go with the 21/15 build.

This table is nice and all, but why do you test against 10 armor? Do you only attack peasants? Also, you must keep in mind, that damage in points doesn't matter, it's how many strikes you need to kill. To evaluate this, you must look at average target of 18/18 char with 40 - 50 armor, which has between 53 and 65 HP (depending on IF investment).

The 18/18 shielder with 6 PS and 6 WM does between 15 - 26 dmg on average, depending on weapon damage (30 - 35) and armor value of target (40 - 50). The 24/15 shielder does "only" 5 points of average damage more per slash, but this means that my build only needs 2 - 4 slashes on average, while the 18/18 build needs 3 - 5 hits.

In conclusion I think that the 18/18 shielder needs 1 hit more on average to kill an average target, than my build. It should also have a slightly higher chance to bounce.

Also, in reply to other people posting mail armor as equipment: you can do this. But it decreases your offensive power. I notice a remarkable speed difference if I go over 16kg weight with my initial build. That's why I rarely use mail armor. For my playstyle, speed is more important than the ability to take hits. I only get hit when someone is able to get past my shield, and if that happens, I die anyway, because if I turn to face him, my original target will kill me. I don't see many situations where the ability to take hits is important for an offensive shielder (except maybe for taking another stray arrow).

[firmitas]

This table is nice and all, but why do you test against 10 armor? Do you only attack peasants? Also, you must keep in mind, that damage in points doesn't matter, it's how many strikes you need to kill. To evaluate this, you must look at average target of 18/18 char with 40 - 50 armor, which has between 53 and 65 HP (depending on IF investment).

The 18/18 shielder with 6 PS and 6 WM does between 15 - 26 dmg on average, depending on weapon damage (30 - 35) and armor value of target (40 - 50). The 24/15 shielder does "only" 5 points of average damage more per slash, but this means that my build only needs 2 - 4 slashes on average, while the 18/18 build needs 3 - 5 hits.

In conclusion I think that the 18/18 shielder needs 1 hit more on average to kill an average target, than my build. It should also have a slightly higher chance to bounce.

Also, in reply to other people posting mail armor as equipment: you can do this. But it decreases your offensive power. I notice a remarkable speed difference if I go over 16kg weight with my initial build. That's why I rarely use mail armor. For my playstyle, speed is more important than the ability to take hits. I only get hit when someone is able to get past my shield, and if that happens, I die anyway, because if I turn to face him, my original target will kill me. I don't see many situations where the ability to take hits is important for an offensive shielder (except maybe for taking another stray arrow).

I hope you are not one of those that does not let fact and figures get in the way of what reality feels.

I use armor 10 as default. Given that the percentages gain or loses remain the same wether I use 20, 30, 40, 50 armor as an input, makes your point inconsequential. If I input 30 armor for an 18.18 build, then I must input 30 armor for 15.21 build and so forth. Thus, what is important are the percentage changes in damage and hit points capacity that occurs when you choose different builds in relation to the base build of 18.18 e.g. if I increase strength but decrease agility I will get more hit power but less hit points.  Moreover, your slashes to kill methodology is saying the same thing in a different way. For the more damage you do in percentage terms the less slashes you will need to kill. However, I must say that percentages paint a more accurate picture than your slashes-need-to-kill-methodology given that it is dependent on external factors. That is why when you go to a gas station you are given octane percentages to determine what gas you want, rather than how much miles per gallon each gasoline type will yield for your particular car: there are too many different type of cars and too many variables to make a cogent assesment.

As to your notions to attack speed differences, they seem to contradict WALTF4s analysis: that if you have a fast weapon and a lot of wpf then weight will have a neglible impact on attack speed. On running speed yes there will be a difference with the increase weight, but you run just as fast with a 21/15 as you do with a 24.15 build.

Second I never argued that an 18.18 build is superior to your build. However, the numbers do suggest that a 21/15 or a 27.12 builds are superior to your build for different reasons. In one build you sacrificing a lot of HP for  a marginal gain in fire power, in the other your gain a lot more fire power, and you don't lose HP.

THus, 24.15 build is inferior to a 21.15 build as the hp cost outweighs the fire power gain.  And if you are interested in one shot kills then you should go for the 24.12 build

[zagibu]

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I try to at least explain again why percentages do not matter here. You must KILL your opponent, in as few hits as possible. This means that if your opponent has 60 HP, and you do 29 dmg, only 1 dmg point more will make the difference between 2 or 3 hits. It's only an increase of 3.3%, but if you have this increase, you will kill him in two hits, otherwise, he will have 2 HP left after your 2 hits and another chance to kill you.

This is where I think my build is located at, just a tiny bit beyond the limit, that allows a player using it to kill his opponents in 1 hit less (on average).
Also, I think that 15 AGI is another threshold for shielders. Below that, I get sidestepped and circled much easier than above it. And I already use light equipment, so I think THIS limit really shouldn't be lowered.

Now it would be helpful to actually have the stats of the average player (HP and armor), so you could really tweak your build for optimal average damage ratio.

On a side note...do you use heirloomed weapons? Because I think a 21/15 build with heirloomed Arabian Cavalry, Nordic Champion's or Military Cleaver might perform similar as a 24/15 with non-loomed stuff. As I said, looms can really make the difference, because 1h damage is very close to these 2 - 3 - 4 hit limits.

[rustyspoon]

All of this reminded me of another important point: Always be moving.

Not only will it help you avoid kicks, but it will give you that all-important speed bonus. Slashing in the direction you are moving in can mean one less hit that you need to kill someone. Also, if someone is running at you and you are running towards them you can often 1-hit them with a running stab to the face.

[firmitas]

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I try to at least explain again why percentages do not matter here. You must KILL your opponent, in as few hits as possible. This means that if your opponent has 60 HP, and you do 29 dmg, only 1 dmg point more will make the difference between 2 or 3 hits. It's only an increase of 3.3%, but if you have this increase, you will kill him in two hits, otherwise, he will have 2 HP left after your 2 hits and another chance to kill you.

This is where I think my build is located at, just a tiny bit beyond the limit, that allows a player using it to kill his opponents in 1 hit less (on average).
Also, I think that 15 AGI is another threshold for shielders. Below that, I get sidestepped and circled much easier than above it. And I already use light equipment, so I think THIS limit really shouldn't be lowered.

Now it would be helpful to actually have the stats of the average player (HP and armor), so you could really tweak your build for optimal average damage ratio.

On a side note...do you use heirloomed weapons? Because I think a 21/15 build with heirloomed Arabian Cavalry, Nordic Champion's or Military Cleaver might perform similar as a 24/15 with non-loomed stuff. As I said, looms can really make the difference, because 1h damage is very close to these 2 - 3 - 4 hit limits.

Again Zagibu this is not my opinion: its mathematics. And if you truly believe that just one point will make a difference, then this just further affirms using percentages. The fact is the higher the percentage increase in the build you choose the higher the probability of killing in the least possible of hits. This is not opinion this is just mathematical logic. What I am simply trying to suggest to you is that what you gain in attack power by going to a 24/15 from a 21/15 build is not worth it given what you lose in hit points.

Even if your assumption were true--and it is not--that just one hit point of damage can mean life or death, then what you gain in a higher probability of a one or two hit kill, is nothing compared in what your opponent gains in the ability to kill you in one or two hits. The fact remains that for every absolute point you gain by choosing a 25/15 build over a 21/15 build in strike power you loose almost three points in hit points. So this means that for each additional chance you get in killing someone quickly, by going from a 21/15 build to a 24/15 build, that someone gains 3 chances to kill you. If that is your idea of a good build, fine.

Nonetheless, the table proves that no one can serve two masters. If you believe that speed is important in a shielder then then a 21/15 build is better than the 24/15 build. If you believe that fire power is important then the 27/12 build is superior to the 24/15 build.

[zagibu]

Well, it's mathematics, but it's not as simple as calculating damage increase, HP increase, summing them together, and using this number as sole indicator of build efficacy. I see that I can't convince you, though, so I do not repeat my arguments again. I will say again, though, that 12 AGI is not enough for a shielder build. 15 AGI is the minimum, IMO.

[Tristan]

I am currently using the 24/15 and the biggest advantage is the early stages as u can get str faster.

In the end however it seems to me that 21/15 is better as well.

I would assume that 21/15 is better than 24/12 if you are a shielder, as 4 shield skill simply does not seem as enough.

[DarkFox]

Its very important to use all swings as a 1h.

1h
Overhead =     +0 reach            Short and 90%goes in head.
Left-to-right = +0 reach             Short but fast and 90% goes in head.
Right-to-left = +19 reach           this swing almost allows you to reach all 2h/polearm users.
Thrust =          +61 reach           very good strike if enemy moves towards you.
This swings allows you to do different combinations. For example while fighting shield vs shield and using 1h sword.Y ou can hit enemy with
right-to-left  then do few steps back(moving without attacking/blocking allows you to move faster). After one second do thrust. Enemy will charge forward and miss with his strike, but he will get thrust from you due to reach(+61) and bonus speed.To kill your enemy try to use different tricks,combinations and tactics.Dont be predictable. And of course you need at least 5 athletics.

[firmitas]

Well, it's mathematics, but it's not as simple as calculating damage increase, HP increase, summing them together, and using this number as sole indicator of build efficacy. I see that I can't convince you, though, so I do not repeat my arguments again. I will say again, though, that 12 AGI is not enough for a shielder build. 15 AGI is the minimum, IMO.

If you are dissassuaded by facts, fine. If you want to compare apple to oranges to elide my arguments, fine. If you feel that 12 agility is insufficient for a shielder, an assumption I share, fine.

However, the 21/15 build is still a better option than the 24/15 given the argument I have made previously: that the benefit you get in increased fire power is outweighed by an even larger decrease in survivalbility. To substantiate this argument I use mathematics--not my self-fufilling perceptions.

For thousand of years people thought the sun revolved around the Earth based on the perception that they saw the Sun rise in the east, and set in the west. Mathematics proved otherwise.

[rustyspoon]

I am currently using the 24/15 and the biggest advantage is the early stages as u can get str faster.

In the end however it seems to me that 21/15 is better as well.

I would assume that 21/15 is better than 24/12 if you are a shielder, as 4 shield skill simply does not seem as enough.

24/15 was actually my second build ever in this game. I feel that 21/15 is a better build also. The increase in damage is negligible and you lose a LOT of hitpoints in a 24/15 build.

For example, my masterworked Italian sword does 33 swing damage. An 8% damage increase is only a 2.64 damage increase. That's before the enemy's armor is factored in. I would personally rather have the additional hitpoints than a couple extra points of damage. Your speed bonus is far more important anyway.

However, a 24/12 build is entirely feasible and works quite well. When I'm leveling my shielder I go to 12/12 then 21/12 then 21/15. So I spend a lot of time with only 4 shield skill. I would use a 24/12 build myself, but I need the 5 shield skill for Strategus. One thing though, I do use a masterworked heavy round shield which does make a difference. If you were going to use a build like that I would use the Knightly Heater. Great shield.

[VVarlord]

My build atm with level 31.

Strength    15    
Agility    22    

One Handed 164 WPF

Iron Flesh 5
Power Strike 5
Shield 7
Athletics 6
Weapon Master 7

I used the military pick ever since i started crpg so my builds have revolved around pierce damage, which allows me to have less STR and PS and more AGI with ATH, SHD and WPM pumped up.

Works well for me as i find my speed is alot higher than other shielders and huscarls lasts much much longer. I recently changed to use steel pick and have found that although the length is much shorter i still do just as well as i did with my beloved military pick.

As you can see in all the other builds if you want to use cut damage go with more PS but with pierce stats elsewhere are just as good.

[firmitas]

Is more than 15 AGI necessary for those short range, powerful 1h weapons? (steel pick, broad 1handed battleaxe, military hammer, etc.)

I went with a pure 21/15 7 IF 1h+shield build and liked it. I hated when I barely missed with these shorter weapons, but I hate glancing and being weak, too.

would 18/18 be better?

This is the $64,000 question. Agility is important: it increases your foot work speed and your attack speed via wpf. So even though a 21/15 build will provide you will increased fire power as well as higher hit points, it comes at the cost of a higher fire power variance, lower swing speed, lower running speed, and lower shield rating. In a game with unnatural agility whores that can moon walk around their opponets as they spam way counter-attack speed is an issue. This silly technique is the reason that two handers appear to be so much faster than shielders when in reality they are not. This technique just allows the two hander to increase the shielder's counter attack distance while his attacking distance remains the same.