Author Topic: Ranged  (Read 4309 times)

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Offline XyNox

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 01:44:30 am »
+7
They should not be able to then duel or groupfight on equal footing, end of.

There is no archer build with decent ranged damage possible right now that wont be vastly outperformed by a dedicated melee build in a melee fight. As a melee you will always be better at every single stat that matters in a melee fight, whether this means armour, attackspeed, damage, blockstun treshold, ironflesh, attack recovery time, weaponreach, forcing glances, and if the poor soul doesnt even have the time to drop bow and quivers it will also be movementspeed/footwork. Due to bow damage currently being incredibly low compared to what it has been during the last 8 years, your standard 10 PD meta archer will have 0 melee WPF. I do not even want to make this sound insulting but there simply is no way around saying it, if you get killed by an archer in melee you are just plain bad, no offense.

The fact is we have all been playing this game for at least 5 years now, most more than that. We have all reached peak performance and so should expect the skill level to be higher, but I do believe there is a solution. Either caps on how much prof you can put into weapon points or increase the cost as you put more points into a particular one. This would reduce complaints about movement speed for melee heroes, AND reduce accuracy of ranged.

That would achieve the exact opposite of what you propose. If everybody would have less WPF then everybody would attack slower and all around it would be more easy to block in melee fights. Not to mention that this change wouldnt affect archers nearly as bad as pure melee builds, since the latter obviously have invested in a lot more melee WPF.

Regarding a reduction of accuracy, obviously this is not suitable. Of all the stats we can alter, and I fully agree with Gurnisson here, accuracy is the only stat that does not give an outright buff to ranged unless the shooter is skilled enough to capitalize on it.

90% you get hit by ranged, it is because the shooter 1) successfully predicted your movements correctly ( or in other words you moved very predictably if it wasnt a short range shot ), 2) estimated the projectile travel time correctly until it reaches the predicted place you would end up at, and 3) judged the distance correctly to account for missile drop, whereas that last factor does not play as much of a role as the other two but can easily mean the difference between a headshot or a shoulder shot. If the shooter misjudges only one of these components he will miss anyway, doesnt matter then if the projectile missed you by one meter or by 85 centimeters. Because of that, Missile speed is hands down the main deciding factor in determining how easy a ranged weapon is to use. And guess what, this stat is also at an all time low compared to how it was back in the days, which I fully support by the way in order not to make ranged too easy.

I'm expecting the usual ignorant replies of "shield blah blah blah" , "I'm already inaccurate as fuck", "protect your own archers". So any comments in the like will be ignored.
I just want to have a conversation about potential fixes because this is what will kill the mod.

Well there is your problem then, if you will disregard all the tips you get that may actually work as "ignorant" and are still insisting on your problems conveniently getting nerfed away, I think I am not out of line when I ask you to reconsider if it is maybe not in fact you who is "ignorant".

I am certainly agreeing that unbalanced ranged / melee team compositions pose an issue but that cannot be addressed by nerfing bows or WPF.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 01:56:39 am by XyNox »
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Offline PoisonedTail

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 02:06:40 am »
0
Archer damage is a joke.

No... It really isn't.

Offline Yeldur

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 02:47:17 am »
0
No... It really isn't.

Agreed. The constant instakill headshots I see in chat 24/7 when there is archer spam on is easy evidence to prove archers are far from underpowered, not to mention my experiment has been more than easy guage the power of archer at the moment, and they're certainly NOT underpowered. Imo archer might not need a direct nerf, but it needs balancing. (I.E. Bring back agi archer and nerf STRcher a little to give people a reason to hop over to agicher)

Giving balance back to archers is adding another road on the step to freedom. Plus I'd love to play an agicher as part of my experiment.

Though, with the addition of 0 shield skill shields, we shouldn't really be complaining. Although the shield argument for archers is a bullshit one, they're trying to make it easier to use a shield when we're in the server, so we should at least give it a go. After all, it's better than nothing. Either way, the more shielders we have, the more archers that can be ganged up on and fucked, as you can't shoot through a shield. (By shielder I mean actual shielder builds, not people running round with 0 shield skill shields, because those will only offer basic protection, as archers will just headshot you instead.) - We should have more people playing 1h shielders imo, as those guys are the easiest direct counter to archers.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 02:50:43 am by Yeldur »
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 05:31:53 am »
0
Lots of ranged on today, on a map that was very easily defended out in the open (with cav support). EZ losses when people rush out but eventually some started staying in cover of the village and we managed to squeeze out a win. Maybe not the most interesting active gameplay, but it is satisfying to overcome the obstacle even on a whack map that simply didnt allow any good paths but straight down the middle if we were to force anything.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 01:29:36 pm »
0
Lots of ranged on today, on a map that was very easily defended out in the open (with cav support). EZ losses when people rush out but eventually some started staying in cover of the village and we managed to squeeze out a win. Maybe not the most interesting active gameplay, but it is satisfying to overcome the obstacle even on a whack map that simply didnt allow any good paths but straight down the middle if we were to force anything.

Exaaactly, this is what we need. People to actually think about how they play, and then win their games.

As opposed to the guy who posted a few posts above, complaining that when he's dueling in full view of an archer, the archer shoots him. I just can't even fathom the stupididty.  Like, if the archer pulled out a spear and stabbed you in the back would that still be bad?

If you want to duel, we do have a duel server you could try???
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Offline BlackxBird

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2018, 08:41:27 pm »
-1
strat battle right now. 18/49 players are ranged. Dedicated, not just guys who picked up crossbows. Yay.

Offline mr_baby_head

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2018, 08:55:46 pm »
+1
I think my main problem with archery/ xbow in this game is super un-realistic, (I KNOW THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN ACCURATE PORTRAYAL OF REAL LIFE) in that on a medieval battlefield an archer or crossbowman would never ever be as close to enemy infantry as they are in-game. It's also getting quite frustrating reading comments in-game and on here from primarily ranged players about how nerfed into the ground it already is, if this were true then we would only have a small percentage of people playing it, the fact is around 30-40% of players are using ranged suggesting it's not as crappy as you guys complain (if not more).

I do have to agree that what crpg needs is greater teamwork towards that sweet x5 in order to combat archers, cav and enemy inf blobs but I appreciate this is something dev teams cannot fix. We the players must do so. Having respecced my main to shielder I would like to add that I've had minimal success in avoiding being shot.

Either way arguments on the internet never have a winner.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 09:04:06 pm by mr_baby_head »

Offline Ikarus

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2018, 09:05:08 pm »
0
strat battle right now. 18/49 players are ranged. Dedicated, not just guys who picked up crossbows. Yay.

Everybody can afford a full plate army with shields, what exactly is your excuse

as already said, I switched my main because xbow didn't feel effective at all
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2018, 09:14:06 pm »
+2
strat battle right now. 18/49 players are ranged. Dedicated, not just guys who picked up crossbows. Yay.

I genuinely wonder what makes people switch to ranged when they can most likely do better with melee weapons.

Offline BlackxBird

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2018, 10:39:16 pm »
-1
Everybody can afford a full plate army with shields, what exactly is your excuse


That was no QQ. The enemies got rekt, cuz those ranged were in my team. Sacco was second in the end, he was archer. We had a shitton more ranged and rekt the enemies easily. Even though the skill and numbers were pretty even.

Offline PoisonedTail

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 02:44:52 am »
0
I genuinely wonder what makes people switch to ranged when they can most likely do better with melee weapons.

Well that's the thing. They can't do better with melee weapons. Bad players tend to appeal to ranged weapons. When I first started, I was an archer because I was so bad at melee.

Offline darmaster

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 12:38:35 am »
0
we need you to fix the ranged stagger, please. please. i'm fine with damage, i'm fine with amount, i'm fine with accuracy, but please fix that ridiculous stun, makes no sense. and please tell us what are the chances it happens
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Offline McKli_PL

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 06:02:12 am »
0
Well that's the thing. They can't do better with melee weapons. Bad players tend to appeal to ranged weapons. When I first started, I was an archer because I was so bad at melee.
there's a difference between arrow spammer and dedicated archer, u can't be good archer without +avg melee skills it's so simple.

Offline Gristle

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2018, 08:49:33 am »
+1
The fact is we have all been playing this game for at least 5 years now

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Both your renown and infamy are in the single digits, and your first post is from 2016.

Offline Leesin

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Re: Ranged
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2018, 09:20:53 am »
+2
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Both your renown and infamy are in the single digits, and your first post is from 2016.

And his posts mainly consist of an Unban thread ( lol ) and a ranged whine.  :lol:.

Anyway babydick, yesterday I was playing EU1 with my 1h/no shield cav and we rekt plenty of enemy ranged units and helped win rounds doing so. Some maps favour ranged units, as some maps favour cav, and some maps have plenty of cover for melee and can advance and flank without being hammered constantly by ranged, it's just that certain maps sometimes make ranged seem even more powerful.

Teamwork is something that makes a huge difference though, me and the other cavs rekt those ranged guys because we flanked as a unit, then charged into the back of their formation, on one round we took out 3 SB crossbow guys on the first charge ( including Veselov which was pleasing ). When the mod had a huge revival people were just playing like "wow crpg is back" and just going crazy, no cohesion, no teamwork, but I have noticed over the past week that more people are trying to play as a team to combat banner stacks and ranged stacked teams, and it works.