Balance for crossbows

[DaveUKR]

Hi. One of the balancers asked me several questions about crossbows so I've decided to put my 5 cents here.
Seems to me that balancers are struggling with some decisions. Hope this helps.

Before you watch the stats you should read why these stats are such.

1. My personal belief is that min-max builds is something bad balance-wise. It is not only OP in most cases but also game ruining in certain ways. None of the builds should be ultimate best.
Sounds obvious, right? Well, not when you look on item balance that makes a little sense sometimes. People should experiment with builds and try hybrids to be the most effective. Remember that you balance the game to remove the game ruining aspects first of all.
2. This thread is only for crossbows but it won't work without changes to other items/classes as it would be just a huge nerf for crossbows. I will gradually make threads with new item classes.

I see the need in dividing crossbows into 3 types:

1. Light crossbows. Only one is present so far. Should be 1 slot and have weak stats.
Should be the only crossbows possible to reload on horseback.

2. Regular crossbow. Hunting Crossbow and Crossbow now.
Mediocre stats.

3. Heavy crossbows. Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest. Should be 3&4 slots.
High damage and accuracy with low reload speed. Should have high STR requirements to prevent AGI builds
Should be really expensive.


Changes to stats of each crossbow and some side notes:

Global changes

• Difficulty is increased by 2-4 STR for each crossbow to prevent high AGI builds with millions of WPF and athletics.
• Accuracy is slightly increased to compensate the WPF loss with new STR requirements
• Price is drastically increased for all crossbows

Light Crossbow
Weight: 3.6 -> 2.8
Accuracy: 85 -> 84
Difficulty: 9 -> 12
Speed rating: 153 -> 142
Missile speed: 48 -> 46
Damage: 53 -> 48
Slots: 2 -> 1
Price: 8236 -> 14778

Explanation:
Can be used as sidearm both for infantry and cavalry. 1 slot opens possibilities for better hybrid solutions like horse+lance+1hander+crossbow&bolts for cav or 2hander+shield+crossbow&bolts etc. Drastically weakened.

Hunting Crossbow
Weight: 3 -> 3.6
Accuracy: 83 -> 86
Difficulty: 7 -> 11
Speed rating: 172 -> 136
Missile speed: 46 -> 44
Damage: 40 -> 46
Slots: 2 -> 1
Price: 4624-> 7621
Can't reload on horseback

Explanation:
Can be used as sidearm for infantry. Impossible to reload on horseback anymore. Made 1 slot to to be a better sidearm solution. Drastically reduced reload speed to force the usage only in really needed situations.

Crossbow
Weight: 4 -> 3.8
Accuracy: 87 -> 88
Difficulty: 11 -> 13
Speed rating: 135 -> 130
Missile speed: 50
Damage: 60 -> 56
Slots: 2
Price: 10326 -> 16945
Can't reload on horseback

Explanation:
Slightly nerfed.

Heavy Crossbow
Weight: 4.4 -> 4.6
Accuracy: 88 -> 90
Difficulty: 13 -> 16
Speed rating: 105 -> 98
Missile speed: 57
Damage: 74
Slots: 3
Price: 12437 -> 21446
Can't reload on horseback

Explanation:
Compromise between Crossbow and Arbalest. 3 slots make it possible to use a 1 slot sidearm.

Arbalest
Weight: 4.7 -> 5.2
Accuracy: 93 -> 95
Difficulty: 16 -> 18
Speed rating: 78 -> 84
Missile speed: 60
Damage: 85
Slots: 4
Price: 15196 -> 32794
Can't reload on horseback

Explanation:
Expensive and slow crossbow with only weak 0 slot sidearms possible. Designed for dedicated crossbowmen.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Bolts changes.
I am pretty sure that max ammo of Steel Bolts needs to be reduced by 1 more bolt so that regular Bolts could find its niche as well.

Bolts
Weight: 4 -> 5.2
Max ammo: 9
Damage: 5 -> 4
Price: 493 -> 2191

Explanation:
Slightly nerfed not to be overall better solution than steel bolts

Steel Bolts
Weight: 5 -> 4
Max ammo: 7 -> 6
Damage: 8
Price: 5843 -> 7211

Explanation:
Max ammo reduced by 1, weight reduced accordingly.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Latvian]

signed, i can only approve.

[Gurnisson]

Light Crossbow
Weight: 3.6 -> 2.8
Accuracy: 85 -> 84
Difficulty: 9 -> 12
Speed rating: 153 -> 142
Missile speed: 48 -> 46
Damage: 53 -> 48
Slots: 2 -> 1
Price: 8236 -> 14778

HX is terrible enough as it is, no?

[DaveUKR]

HX is terrible enough as it is now, yes?

Not enough. Warband engine doesn't allow to make changes to make HX a separate non-broken viable class in c-rpg that doesn't ruin the game for everyone else.

HX as a dedicated playable class without melee weapon shouldn't exist in the first place. What we had in the past and still have are abusers and trolls or even both.
Suggested changes will change the role of crossbow on horseback and make it actually a useful sidearm against unreachable ranged rather than a weapon of frustration.

[Weren]

I think the hunting crossbow and light crossbow roles should be reversed. Hunting crossbow is atm the weakest one and most closely fits with your suggested role for light crossbow. I don't see the need for the change in hierarchy.

Overall the changes for heavier and medium crossbows look alright. I Wouldn't slow down the weakest crossbow's reload or give it so much more damage, though. I currently run a pretty niche crossbow build with hunting crossbow, where I compensate for the lack of damage and missile speed with headshots and mobility. Willing to give suggested changes a try though, even if it would pretty much ruin my current playstyle.

[Bittersteel]

HX is terrible enough as it is, no?

I've played as a polearmer for 2 months with some riding skills. Decided to pick up the crossbow the last month with no wpf at all in it. Killing heavily armed cavalry with 2 bolts with 0 in wpf and still a pretty small reticle is fucking retarded and I still feel the disgust. It was so easy and I was literally untouchable if I tryharded. The only class that could do something about it was archers and that's if they're smart and can predict my movements after I go ride away only to come back 10 seconds later and shoot them again. I can only imagine what I could pull off if I dedicated my build as HX, but alas, my conscience got the better of me, and now I'm doomed to wander the bottom of the leaderboards as a tincan thrower.

[DaveUKR]

I think the hunting crossbow and light crossbow roles should be reversed. Hunting crossbow is atm the weakest one and most closely fits with your suggested role for light crossbow. I don't see the need for the change in hierarchy.

Overall the changes for heavier and medium crossbows look alright. I Wouldn't slow down the weakest crossbow's reload or give it so much more damage, though. I currently run a pretty niche crossbow build with hunting crossbow, where I compensate for the lack of damage and missile speed with headshots and mobility. Willing to give suggested changes a try though, even if it would pretty much ruin my current playstyle.

Hunting crossbow fits the place of a low tier medium crossbow (it even shares the model of regular Crossbow). I agree that there is a vacant place for a faster but weaker light crossbow, probably need an entirely new weapon. Like this
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


P.S. Missile speed : damage ratio will get out of the conception but we can pretend that this crossbow uses different type of bolts ;-)

[Ikarus]

hm, the arbalest/heavy xbow and bolt changes look fine to me (I'm no expert with normal xbow and below so I leave that to discuss for others)

Not sure yet about tripling the upkeep, nevertheless I think it's worth testing because earning gold has become easier nowadays.

I'd be okay with those changes

[DaveUKR]

hm, the arbalest/heavy xbow and bolt changes look fine to me (I'm no expert with normal xbow and below so I leave that to discuss for others)

Not sure yet about tripling the upkeep, nevertheless I think it's worth testing because earning gold has become easier nowadays.

I'd be okay with those changes

Actually it's not tripling the upkeep, I just made a typo and copied the current price of Heavy Crossbow instead of Arbalest.
15196 is current price of Arba and suggested is 32794 which is roughly doubled price. The rest of changes in price are not as big, around x1.5

[Algarn]

Actually it's not tripling the upkeep, I just made a typo and copied the current price of Heavy Crossbow instead of Arbalest.
15196 is current price of Arba and suggested is 32794 which is roughly doubled price. The rest of changes in price are not as big, around x1.5

I don't know if it's wise to set upkeeps this high. 32k is roughly the price of a top tier warhorse, the upkeep is just massive. As an archer with roughly 2k max repairs (bow+arrows account for more than 50%), I don't even make money anymore after the gold changes, and this is while playing on an average of x3-4.

[DaveUKR]

I don't know if it's wise to set upkeeps this high. 32k is roughly the price of a top tier warhorse, the upkeep is just massive. As an archer with roughly 2k max repairs (bow+arrows account for more than 50%), I don't even make money anymore after the gold changes, and this is while playing on an average of x3-4.

I guess it's a fair price for a top tier crossbow. It will also encourage players to get some score points (like shooting horses, taking part in melee fights instead of avoiding them and solo camping miles away to get peasant kills) to get valour.

If you want to compare prices this way - you can compare current Arbalest's price with long maul. The most complex and heaviest crossbow or a boulder on wooden stick, what costs more? Exactly, long maul, it costs 200 gold more than Arbalest
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Asheram]

Steel bolts already had the ammo reduced from 11 to 8, so no to 6. Reducing the ammo count isn't going to stop players like Rohypnol from riding around with 3 bags of bolts they will do it even more. The way to get ha/hx to stop riding around with 3 bags of ammo and no melee weapon is to make one item slot melee only item.

[DaveUKR]

Steel bolts already had the ammo reduced from 11 to 8, so no to 6. Reducing the ammo count isn't going to stop players like Rohypnol from riding around with 3 bags of bolts they will do it even more. The way to get ha/hx to stop riding around with 3 bags of ammo and no melee weapon is to make one item slot melee only item.

Ammo reduced to 7, 8 is when it's MW. I suggest to reduce it by 1 bolt only to 6. As you might notice - light crossbow is the only crossbow that is heavily nerfed in my suggestion.
Plus don't forget that your crossbow comes with 1 loaded bolt besides that.

[Asheram]

Guess you missed my saying the ammo count was already lowered recently and weight is also heavier now than when ammo count was 11 too. Why are you trying reduce ammo? Reduce Archer ammo too then

[BlackxBird]

I like what u did there, but I do not think making the requirement for the arbalest to 18 will change something. If it is increased it should go to 19 in my opinion. I gues most xbows anyways go for the 18 str if they want to use the arbalest and dont want to waste that one str point.