The Ranged Problem.

[Larvae]

Kiting xbowers 

Crossbows are debatedly (important part here) too strong for the cost to character build they impose (compared to throwing and bows) but the fact that they cant kite and never have been able to is their natural weakness/counter part since forever. No need to add imaginary cool points to crossbows to further argue in favor of their nerfing.

Lol ,really?
Played with an xbow char myself and its easy af to kite,just use light/med armor,go for agi build and run away from the tincans....

As Bbow sais,its daily stuff on eu1.

[Larvae]

Anyone who thinks you can't kite with an xbow hasn't tried this build out.



Not only are you going to be the fastest person on the server, you can also 1-2 shot anyone, and you don't even need the Arb or bolts loomed.

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That or even 16/24 is the normal xbow build like everyone is using,why the hell would u go for only 4 athletics with an xbow char?

I think just increasing the amount of str needed for the crossbows would fix most problems (instead of nerfing the dmg) as kiting is then not possible anymore..or it is possible,but then u cant be that good in meele anymore.

Well,that wont fix the problem that nearly every 2h/pole char takes a crossbow as "sidearm"  but will prevent kiting.

[Gristle]

Ignoring all of the delusional people that just want to kill the class...

as it stands, i think that xbow does too much damage. however, i haven't said the amount of damage that i'd like it to do. also please keep in mind that when im speaking about xbow, im talking about the arbalest. i did quite a bit of testing with other crossbows with professor earlier but i cannot rightly remember every little detail so im forgoing those items in this post. i think arbalest should not have the ability to 2-3 shot a tincan. i wore 80 armor against an arbs in one of these tests, and i think that a crossbow dealing that much damage is a tad extreme. in my mind, balance for a weapon like arbs should be something like: 1 shot nakeds, 80%-1 shot light armor, 2-3 shot 50 armors, 3-4 shot tincans. i think this helps to balance arbs damage in a way without making it useless. when desire says "8 shots to the chest is ridiculous" she is right. we need to find a middle ground between armor doing little against arbs and completely nullifying its damage. also, headshots with arbs should be 1 shot, but all the other crossbows shouldn't (the goal being to highlight player choice in choosing high damage/low reload vs low damage/high reload).

I agree an arbalest shouldn't 2 shot someone wearing the tinnest of can armor, but 4 also sounds pretty high. We only get 8 steel bolts. Arb takes a long time to reload. That guy has to be playing pretty poorly to get shot by 4 arb bolts in one round. Even getting hit by 3 bolts tells me that person isn't paying much attention. Considering reload time and bolts expended, a decent amount of the round's time was focused on bringing that guy down, even though the player might not realize it. More armor is not the counter to range.

I did notice that both the longbows and throwing lances have a 6 difficulty, meaning they require 18 strength to use. I'd say it's reasonable to put arbalest at 18 as well.

[Gnjus]

Can't remember the last time I took part in one of these "balance discussions" but let me tell you a story, since you're all n-e-w-f-a-g-s anyway.
Back in the beginning there were 2 or 3 crossbowmen on the whole server, out of hundreds of players while on the other hand - there were hundreds of archers. Only a few of us masochists used crossbows, not because they were "weak", their dmg was brutal, as it should be, but mainly because they were quite inaccurate, their crosshair was so wide that hitting something bordered with randomness. Unfortunately I don't have any ancient screenshots to show you, only these two that were taken after the first wave of Xbow buffs:

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Imagine having to hit something with crosshair even wider than this. Later on it was buffed a few times and made a sniper, like it probably still is. That's why everyone and their mother is using it. So no amount of crying will ever change it, if you want less crossbows on the battlefield just make its crosshair as wide as it used to be (nothing wrong with its damage, it should be deadly because you know - bolts actually kill people). When all these simple minded easy-mode nooblets won't be able to hit shit anymore they'll just GTX the class in tears and play something else. Simple as that.

[Larvae]

Can't remember the last time I took part in one of these "balance discussions" but let me tell you a story, since you're all n-e-w-f-a-g-s anyway.
Back in the beginning there were 2 or 3 crossbowmen on the whole server, out of hundreds of players while on the other hand - there were hundreds of archers. Only a few of us masochists used crossbows, not because they were "weak", their dmg was brutal, as it should be, but mainly because they were quite inaccurate, their crosshair was so wide that hitting something bordered with randomness. Unfortunately I don't have any ancient screenshots to show you, only these two that were taken after the first wave of Xbow buffs:

(click to show/hide)

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(click to show/hide)

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Imagine having to hit something with crosshair even wider than this. Later on it was buffed a few times and made a sniper, like it probably still is. That's why everyone and their mother is using it. So no amount of crying will ever change it, if you want less crossbows on the battlefield just make its crosshair as wide as it used to be (nothing wrong with its damage, it should be deadly because you know - bolts actually kill people). When all these simple minded easy-mode nooblets won't be able to hit shit anymore they'll just GTX the class in tears and play something else. Simple as that.

I wouldnt call me and bbow "new"

[Paul]

Can't remember the last time I took part in one of these "balance discussions" but let me tell you a story, since you're all n-e-w-f-a-g-s anyway.
Back in the beginning there were 2 or 3 crossbowmen on the whole server, out of hundreds of players while on the other hand - there were hundreds of archers. Only a few of us masochists used crossbows, not because they were "weak", their dmg was brutal, as it should be, but mainly because they were quite inaccurate, their crosshair was so wide that hitting something bordered with randomness. Unfortunately I don't have any ancient screenshots to show you, only these two that were taken after the first wave of Xbow buffs:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Imagine having to hit something with crosshair even wider than this. Later on it was buffed a few times and made a sniper, like it probably still is. That's why everyone and their mother is using it. So no amount of crying will ever change it, if you want less crossbows on the battlefield just make its crosshair as wide as it used to be (nothing wrong with its damage, it should be deadly because you know - bolts actually kill people). When all these simple minded easy-mode nooblets won't be able to hit shit anymore they'll just GTX the class in tears and play something else. Simple as that.

Do as Gnjus says, also increase shot speed and have this playing when wielding the Arb. Rip and tear.

[Torben]

Just throwing in my delight about the establishment of the verb "to GTX".

continue

[Nightingale]

Hi all, this will be my last attempt at explaining things to the thick-skulled among you. So I apologize if you feel my explanation isn't thorough enough.
I'll try to hit everything in detail as I see the need for it.

Gnjus and Paul - While that would reduce the number of xbowmen it would also increase instances of annoying team wounding from those select few that stay with the class but even then I think there are simpler solutions.

Its been quite some time since someone referenced GTX'ing like that. I appreciate the throwback.

The more you increase the difficulty the easier it is for xbowmen to hybridize into even more effective melee builds because you are effectively reducing options giving them a cut and dry course of action into a 100% without choice style of build.

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@ Larvae At the time when i was level 30 I had full plate guards and played in siege I was never more than just a couple of steps away from at least 2 friendly heavy infantry and all I would have to do is hold an attack in place and let my heavy infantry laugh while they had a choice to either block my attack or theirs. Its an adapted build dedicated to just shooting and being stationary as that was most benefitical to my clan and team at the time. *explains why I had 4 ath and 2 ps*

As to ur suggestion about increasing strength to 24. What would be the result of this? have you thought this through at all? - The first change would be xbowmen would become highly hybridized infantry that are now strength builds with 8 iron flesh and 8 power strike with at least 5 athletics. This is a change you would prefer? Because as I see it that is the opposite of what is ideal. You want xbowmen to be Less effective melee builds yet you propose ideas that would result in them dealing, even more, melee damage being moderately accurate and be able to tank as much as any other infantry player... Seems like flawed logic.

So needless to say I appreciate your very common suggestion but I will have to pass on agreeing with that type of balance choice.

Even a fully tinned up player can keep the gap between the 'kiting' xbower close enough to completely hinder the xbower's ability to reload. Reducing their potential damage output to just whatever they can do in melee *UNLESS* the melee player decides to ignore the xbow allowing them to reload.

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@Grytviken, Yes because you are doing so well with your absolutely amazing 1.1 k/d ratio with 23 kills for every 21 deaths lmao.

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@Blackbow if for whatever reason the developer team contracted retardation and decided to implement your patch because you are clearly a wise and all-knowing demigod amongst c-rpg players; here would be the result.

1) Arbalest alone would receive a massive buff to accuracy more than double the accuracy it has now. Meaning absolutely 0 investment into this build would be 100% pinpoint accurate.
2) Increasing the strength requirement to 24. Great now we have 100% melee builds with 8 iron flesh 8 ps and full dedicated wpf towards melee running around with pinpoint accurate weapons. Truly inspiring.
3) Though that pinpoint accuracy will only deliver anywhere between 8-17 damage so You might as well not pay the upkeep on this hunk of garbage? I mean Just use a +3 wooden stick and you'll do more damage on average. I'll just pretend you know what you are doing here and tell you straightforward "no" I am not going to completely nerf xbow out of existence. by the time you got down to hunting xbow you'd see damages like 4-11 lmao. If only we had more great minds like yours balancing range it's a true shame we do not.

Str doesn't increase accuracy for xbow. Lowering its damage increases accuracy for xbow. by removing 20 damage you are buffing accuracy of arbalest by around 60%.

When you say no other range class can deal as much damage you are 100% incorrect. Arbalest as is deals on average 28-37 ish damage to a medium infantry player.  This is due to armor soak and range debuff multiplier at play. There is no stat to statically improve the xbow damage only factors that hinder its damage. If its raining at all you might as well not even bother carrying an xbow. Ur damage reduces to the 16-21 range.

Whereas say throwing With 6 PT you can deal 50 damage on average with a variety of weaponry or strength archers can deal 40-50 damage depending on their build. You have inflated delusions of xbow damage Which is understandable since you have grown so biased against them Whereas the show damage feature does not lie. Not saying you are lying but You clearly do not have a grip on reality and never once have I said xbow is fine as it is. We are working on it as much as possible please be patient.

The damage tests done by thyrn are not full proof and don't display the actual damages. As I'm sure he is aware damage is much lower than he probably initially thought. though these numbers I'm saying 28-37 are indeed high when taking into consideration I'm shooting someone with full plate. So when you say I am lying about that damage you are simply wrong and are misunderstanding how damage works in this game in accordance with hp armor soak and speed bonus other factors like distance. I'm not going to explain everything to you If you are indeed not new then you had every chance to learn these things by now and I am truly sorry that you did not.

Raylin did fail at balancing range. Let that sink in. He failed. He implemented stats VERY similar to the ones you are proposing. You like him would not produce a decent range patch if we gave you the chance to balance range. Again I have never once said I refused to change the class I play. I even listed changes I supported and implemented over the course of 2 years. Unlike Raylin I did not upset the balance of the game so much that people reverted my changes or even took notice for that matter. As you can clearly tell because now I am having to explain that I've supported and had all of these changes done yet no one seems to know that They happened?! Sometimes the community is just wrong because they are wrong. It's not an easy position to be in as a person to have to tell stubborn people that are 100% certain they are correct about everything that they are wrong. Matter of a fact it's an impossible position to be in. I can only ask that you trust I don't want the game to be imbalanced. I enjoy playing this game like everyone here.

once again I will repeat myself I do not want no investment hybrids to be an OP dominate presence in EU 1 or any server for that matter. I like you would like there to be SOME difference between having spent nearly a decade playing a class and having picked up the thing off the ground so I like you was met with disappointment when PD wasn't an option. Though Unlike you I will stand by every single class to avoid unwarranted nerfs/changes. I will play test every single class before making changes and I will take my time and not be rushed into decisions based upon by community tears. I am not a person that can be swayed like that.

Even with 24 agility you are effectively wearing at least 2.5 great mauls if you ulitize every slot the way you are suggesting. Dropping the xbow will result in you being much more effective in melee than you actually keeping it in your inventory while fighting.

Why would I question myself when I can actually see the damage values displayed in number format moreover, the only ranged class that can drop me to 10% hp would be throwing. Not xbows. not archers.

It is very odd to me that you request me to be fired when I am actively trying to fix the issue. You can talk to Thyrn who you seem to hold higher and trust him more than I. He can tell you I spent at least 5 hours with Professor this evening alone trying to fix armor soak and re-establish a basis for making a change that would effectively eliminate xbows ability to 2 shot even the tankist of infantry. The ideal lethal damage values should be as follows

1 shot 1-20 armor value
1-2 shot 21-35ish armor value
2 shot 36-55 armor value
3 shot 60 armor value
4-5 shot 70 ish armor to 80.

Varies based on build and iron flesh ofc.

I guess I can apologize for not listing my suggestions in a public forum? Well not really that isn't something to apologize for.

Last edit: Blackbow you said why don't I make bows like xbows and have 0 slot quivers. I would like to point out that 2 of the options are alredy 0 slots and that just this evening I suggested making higher tier bows 3 slots like xbows and reducing quivers to 0 slots ofc I have no evidence so again you will just have to trust me which you seem to be entirely unable to do.
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[Larvae]

Hi all, this will be my last attempt at explaining things to the thick-skulled among you. So I apologize if you feel my explanation isn't thorough enough.
I'll try to hit everything in detail as I see the need for it.

Gnjus and Paul - While that would reduce the number of xbowmen it would also increase instances of annoying team wounding from those select few that stay with the class but even then I think there are simpler solutions.

Its been quite some time since someone referenced GTX'ing like that. I appreciate the throwback.

The more you increase the difficulty the easier it is for xbowmen to hybridize into even more effective melee builds because you are effectively reducing options giving them a cut and dry course of action into a 100% without choice style of build.

-------------
@ Larvae At the time when i was level 30 I had full plate guards and played in siege I was never more than just a couple of steps away from at least 2 friendly heavy infantry and all I would have to do is hold an attack in place and let my heavy infantry laugh while they had a choice to either block my attack or theirs. Its an adapted build dedicated to just shooting and being stationary as that was most benefitical to my clan and team at the time. *explains why I had 4 ath and 2 ps*

As to ur suggestion about increasing strength to 24. What would be the result of this? have you thought this through at all? - The first change would be xbowmen would become highly hybridized infantry that are now strength builds with 8 iron flesh and 8 power strike with at least 5 athletics. This is a change you would prefer? Because as I see it that is the opposite of what is ideal. You want xbowmen to be Less effective melee builds yet you propose ideas that would result in them dealing, even more, melee damage being moderately accurate and be able to tank as much as any other infantry player... Seems like flawed logic.

So needless to say I appreciate your very common suggestion but I will have to pass on agreeing with that type of balance choice.

Even a fully tinned up player can keep the gap between the 'kiting' xbower close enough to completely hinder the xbower's ability to reload. Reducing their potential damage output to just whatever they can do in melee *UNLESS* the melee player decides to ignore the xbow allowing them to reload.

-----------

@Grytviken, Yes because you are doing so well with your absolutely amazing 1.1 k/d ratio with 23 kills for every 21 deaths lmao.

----------

@Blackbow if for whatever reason the developer team contracted retardation and decided to implement your patch because you are clearly a wise and all-knowing demigod amongst c-rpg players; here would be the result.

1) Arbalest alone would receive a massive buff to accuracy more than double the accuracy it has now. Meaning absolutely 0 investment into this build would be 100% pinpoint accurate.
2) Increasing the strength requirement to 24. Great now we have 100% melee builds with 8 iron flesh 8 ps and full dedicated wpf towards melee running around with pinpoint accurate weapons. Truly inspiring.
3) Though that pinpoint accuracy will only deliver anywhere between 8-17 damage so You might as well not pay the upkeep on this hunk of garbage? I mean Just use a +3 wooden stick and you'll do more damage on average. I'll just pretend you know what you are doing here and tell you straightforward "no" I am not going to completely nerf xbow out of existence. by the time you got down to hunting xbow you'd see damages like 4-11 lmao. If only we had more great minds like yours balancing range it's a true shame we do not.

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I'm sure ill edit more in here in just a second gotta go back a page....

Xbowers couldnt kite that much anymore and they have anyways atleast 6 ps qith a bit less hp but more athletics. Also they would not be that accurate anymore if they want to have decent meele stats.

[Gnjus]

Gnjus and Paul - While that would reduce the number of xbowmen it would also increase instances of annoying team wounding from those select few that stay with the class but even then I think there are simpler solutions.

Eh what ? Are you saying that the problem would be those "selected few that stay with the class" hitting their own teammates instead of the enemy or am I getting this wrong ? As in, for example:

(click to show/hide)

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I'm aiming for the arab archer on the left roof and instead I hit one of my own beneath the building ? Cause you sure as hell make it sound that way and we're not talking about THAT much inaccuracy. If you're talking about shooting into melee while they're fighting I assure you: the "instances of annoying team wounding" would be nowhere near the amount you're implying. And even if they were - it would be much less damage than this shitty counter strike we're playing right now. I hope I'm getting you wrong because what you just wrote has absolutely no sense whatsoever and it borders with plain stupidity & ignorance resulting from a lack of arguments in "discussion". I agree that maybe there are other solutions, I just mentioned how it used to be back in the days when crossbows were "normal".

[Gristle]

they have anyways atleast 6 ps

Do you mean the current common build has 6 PS? The build with 16 strength?

[Nightingale]

Eh what ? Are you saying that the problem would be those "selected few that stay with the class" hitting their own teammates instead of the enemy or am I getting this wrong ? As in, for example:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I'm aiming for the arab archer on the left roof and instead I hit one of my own beneath the building ? Cause you sure as hell make it sound that way and we're not talking about THAT much inaccuracy. If you're talking about shooting into melee while they're fighting I assure you: the "instances of annoying team wounding" would be nowhere near the amount you're implying. And even if they were - it would be much less damage than this shitty counter strike we're playing right now. I hope I'm getting you wrong because what you just wrote has absolutely no sense whatsoever and it borders with plain stupidity & ignorance resulting from a lack of arguments in "discussion". I agree that maybe there are other solutions, I just mentioned how it used to be back in the days when crossbows were "normal".

You are correct in assuming I misunderstood Trying to understand the illogical concepts of the random influx of ideas as had a detrimental impact on my intelligence.

TO clarify I would support a decrease in accuracy though we are exploring additional options. A debuff to accuracy may follow suit.

Edit: Fair to note I edited in quite a long wall of text directed at black bows posts that he provided responding to things I said. In the last post I made claiming it would be my last... I suppose I forgot how to count too.

[Larvae]

Do you mean the current common build has 6 PS? The build with 16 strength?

18/24 also a possible build^^

[Grumbs]

Hi all, this will be my last attempt at explaining things to the thick-skulled among you.

I appreciate you blessing us with your presence. That probably sounds pretty sarcastic but I do think we have been a bit harsh and you are putting a lot of depth and content into your posts so I appreciate that

As to ur suggestion about increasing strength to 24. What would be the result of this? have you thought this through at all? - The first change would be xbowmen would become highly hybridized infantry that are now strength builds with 8 iron flesh and 8 power strike with at least 5 athletics. This is a change you would prefer? Because as I see it that is the opposite of what is ideal. You want xbowmen to be Less effective melee builds yet you propose ideas that would result in them dealing, even more, melee damage being moderately accurate and be able to tank as much as any other infantry player... Seems like flawed logic.

If you can be moderately accurate with 5 WM and still be good in melee then maybe that is part of the problem? Maybe increasing the crosshair size could be an idea. I don't buy that it is to prevent team wounding that they are so accurate. People shouldn't fire into melee if they have a chance of hitting a team mate. It would encourage players to get closer to the enemies, which would put them in more danger so would be a good balance option imo. You could nerf low WPF melee too, or buff high WPF melee players. I don't know how xbows are with 1 WPF atm, but I remember them being pretty crazy even without WPF

@Blackbow if for whatever reason the developer team contracted retardation and decided to implement your patch because you are clearly a wise and all-knowing demigod amongst c-rpg players; here would be the result.

1) Arbalest alone would receive a massive buff to accuracy more than double the accuracy it has now. Meaning absolutely 0 investment into this build would be 100% pinpoint accurate.
2) Increasing the strength requirement to 24. Great now we have 100% melee builds with 8 iron flesh 8 ps and full dedicated wpf towards melee running around with pinpoint accurate weapons. Truly inspiring.
3) Though that pinpoint accuracy will only deliver anywhere between 8-17 damage so You might as well not pay the upkeep on this hunk of garbage? I mean Just use a +3 wooden stick and you'll do more damage on average. I'll just pretend you know what you are doing here and tell you straightforward "no" I am not going to completely nerf xbow out of existence. by the time you got down to hunting xbow you'd see damages like 4-11 lmao. If only we had more great minds like yours balancing range it's a true shame we do not.

Str doesn't increase accuracy for xbow. Lowering its damage increases accuracy for xbow. by removing 20 damage you are buffing accuracy of arbalest by around 60%.

I doubt Blackbow meant to increase the accuracy like that. He probably intended for you to adjust things to maintain the same accuracy.

once again I will repeat myself I do not want no investment hybrids to be an OP dominate presence in EU 1 or any server for that matter. I like you would like there to be SOME difference between having spent nearly a decade playing a class and having picked up the thing off the ground so I like you was met with disappointment when PD wasn't an option. Though Unlike you I will stand by every single class to avoid unwarranted nerfs/changes. I will play test every single class before making changes and I will take my time and not be rushed into decisions based upon by community tears. I am not a person that can be swayed like that.

This is my main gripe too. Theres way too much hybrid power just by picking up a xbow and putting some WPF into xbows. I bet there are a plethora of ways to fix that, but here we are in 2017/2018 and the class is still in the shape it is now

[Nightingale]

I appreciate you blessing us with your presence. That probably sounds pretty sarcastic but I do think we have been a bit harsh and you are putting a lot of depth and content into your posts so I appreciate that

A little sarcasm never hurt anyone.