The Ranged Problem.

[Thryn]

Most of the ridiculously high damage comes from the speed and elevation damage bonuses not the base damage. Hardly anyone is not moving when they get shot.

you can't say for certain as for which direction each person is moving at all times and whether or not that shot is doing more or less dmg based on speed bonus

i'd say that arbalest doing ~36 dmg thru tincan is extremely powerful and bumping it up another 8 points with speed damage is saying something

if ur arguing that my test represents on average lower outputs than what you'd experience in battle server, i'd understand your point better

[Grytviken]

you can't say for certain as for which direction each person is moving at all times and whether or not that shot is doing more or less dmg based on speed bonus

i'd say that arbalest doing ~36 dmg thru tincan is extremely powerful and bumping it up another 8 points with speed damage is saying something

if ur arguing that my test represents on average lower outputs than what you'd experience in battle server, i'd understand your point better

Way lower on average. You should test the damage on a moving target and on a moving target when the range is at a higher elevation. The speed bonus is more than double the base damage.

[woody]

Eu1 is dying to ranged spam, then dying to cav spam, if you survive those you die to the groups of 5-6 good players who run around together. Its always been that way.

[Algarn]

I didn't make any claims about accuracy, only made a suggestion based off of my experience.

That bit was mainly destined to Blackbow, his claims are just wrong. What you said however, I do not agree with at all, if anything, the last thing this game needs is some more RNG, truly not a good idea especially when we're talking about skill-based games.

powerful bows should be more 'cannon' like. less accuracy for much higher damage. the shorter bows should be the less damaging sniper bows.

The thing is that it is already the case, and pushing it any further will just throw off the balance completely.

Also, you say that with 10 pd and 120 wpf that you have very a very small window for "accurate" fire. I feel as though 30 strength on an archer should be as hindering as it would for an infantryman with 30 strength; as infantry with a 30/9 build, you would have 3 WM which is 100 wpf in any melee weapon. With that wpf you are are looking at getting stunlocked when you stab, have poor overall timing, etc. Also 3 athletics is going to make footwork impossible. All-in-all you are going to be a 1 trick pony: smashing people's asses in groupfights and maybe getting those lucky hits in duels.

You highlight the drawbacks of not having a lot of AGI, well, guess what, I can't have any footwork either, have even less hp, just 5 wpf in melee, and so on... STR archers deal with the same problems as melee characters focused on STR.


I will do some testing with bows and stats when I get a friend on to test with me. I'll do some tests with low str longbow builds and high str horn bow builds and just see how it all looks. I'm not an archer in cRPG by any means so I'm not trying to be pretentious here, but I've been shot my archers in cRPG for 5 years and have a good feel for how strong they should be against various infantry builds.


You'll likely find the same results as I did :

- you'll be slower to draw your bow
- your arrows will be faster
- your initial spread will be mediocre, regardless of your build (27/15 or 30/12)
- said spread will bloom way faster with a Yew Longbow than with a Horn Bow or any bow with less damage
- initial spread will be tighter with lower damage bows in general (bar the short bow and the regular bow for their very low accuracy value)

Of all the things to nerf (and if a nerf there needs to be), the accuracy of strength builds is the last thing to pick from. You sacrifice already a lot by going for such build.


Lastly, bows shouldn't be pinpoint accurate at more than 50m at all, doesn't that fall under the purpose of a crossbow in the game's meta?

The crossbow, is more anchored into a sniper role because of the unlimited time you can spend with the bolt ready to release; as well as very high damage, speed and base accuracy values, and also no power draw penalties at all, which means even more accuracy. An arbalest shot will always be way faster than a shot from a composite bow and 8 PD (highest arrow speed combination), and currently, the bows at 28 base damage and above are the least accurate of all.

TLDR : Powerful bows aren't accurate with high strength builds, nerfing their accuracy would be a huge mistake. I enjoy archery as a class, but I can't tell how many shots I've missed just because of how inaccurate my character is. While a nerf is what most people want, I think it needs a revamp, separating the bows further between fast, and slow firing bows, and increasing the damage all across the board with a big increase in draw times, so STR builds are heavily penalized for missing due to their low wpf, while AGI and balanced archer builds will deal less damage overall, but have more chances to hit a target in a time window.

[Yeldur]

Seriously, no.

The high accuracy values are here to compensate for the fact that the more damage your bow does, the less accurate it actually is. A horn bow will ALWAYS be more accurate than a Yew Longbow, nearly regardless of WPF.
Now, be careful for what you wish for. If you touch the accuracy values on higher end bows, STR builds will be killed off entirely, while agi builds will remain as ineffective (read : garbage) as they already are. I don't know what you're trying to achieve, but nerfing accuracy this much would basically turn longbowmen into RNG characters more than anything else, dealing the same amount of damage, but with such a low accuracy it'd be comically bad. Agi archers, on the other hand, would be able to make use of longbows, but would still be stuck into the trashcan they're already at because the damage values would be unchanged.

I'll repost this, because it seems neither of you seem to have actually read it.

Tell me more about being accurate when I can't headshot people beyond 50m half of the time.

EDIT :

Here, just to prove you're completely wrong about accuracy, here is a screen comparison, even better that the Yew Longbow I'm using only does 31 damage instead of 32 because I'm too poor to buy a final LP, meaning I should be even less accurate. If you bothered to back your claims about accuracy with screenshots, that'd be great.

Horn Bow : https://imgur.com/a/SOvrq
Yew Longbow : https://imgur.com/a/bvTV0

idk making all archer builds useless thus killing the class sounds great to me

[Leesin]

Buff HA so I can farm more salt, that's my only suggestion. It's amazing that even with HA nerfed into the fucking ground, you can still make bitches rage quit and rage poll.

[Beleg]

People always rage about stuff. HA is even shittier than regular archery, and everytime I think about archery I want to kill myself. I've developed a strnge sense of respect and admiration for those who try to play HA these days.

[Blackbow]

TLDR : Powerful bows aren't accurate with high strength builds, nerfing their accuracy would be a huge mistake. I enjoy archery as a class, but I can't tell how many shots I've missed just because of how inaccurate my character is. While a nerf is what most people want, I think it needs a revamp, separating the bows further between fast, and slow firing bows, and increasing the damage all across the board with a big increase in draw times, so STR builds are heavily penalized for missing due to their low wpf, while AGI and balanced archer builds will deal less damage overall, but have more chances to hit a target in a time window.

comon algarn stop making your 30/12 build put a bit more wpf and you will have accuracy
you keep doing the same builds like before the xp roll back it cant work ...
archery is fucked now ... there is no point to play it anymore... atm i just dont know what to play else...
most powerfull bows cant be also the most accurate it's not about rng its just you will not be able to shoot from each side of the map with a 30/12 build but make a 24/18 everything is fine ...
like someone said it's like if all 2handers had a unique weapon to play with ...
there is no fucking sense to bows stats actualy and it make just the most gay kind of builds op as fuck
in the past longbow had 99 accuracy and you was dealing with it algarn ... 106 accuracy cmon it's fucking op

anyway i want to vomit each time i see those xbowers running at light speed with their 2000 wpf ...
you run to them go to swing and during your animation they have time to run back, go take a cofee, eat a cookie and coming back to swing into your face and make you knock down on first hit with their fucking op shit mace...
i bet they dont even have the 3d model flying projectile size reduction
i cant see my fucking arrows !!!

[Nehvar]

So I've been playing a generation of xbow for the first time in a long while the past couple days.  I've shot many schmucks and been shot to pieces by many a rancid aimbotting shitlord.  My observations so far are that none of the ranged builds, save certain throwing builds, are currently overpowered (when there are a decent number of players on (EU**)). 

On numerous occasions, yesterday in particular, I saw a cluster of shield-having melee rush the opposing team's ranged camp and easily roll them up.  They took some losses in the process but so what?  This isn't rock-paper-scissors.  Having a shield doesn't guarantee you a win against ranged and it shouldn't.  It's just an advantage.  The fact remains that a bunch of melee with proper shields and a little teamwork turned a ranged problem into a non-problem.

With that in mind, it is my opinion that people complaining about ranged should invest in a shield and give working together a try.  All it costs is one tier of either STR or AGI from your min-maxed s-key heroes.


**It's a different story on NA with 10v10's.


On a related note:  I think this game would benefit from making it easier to split wpf between two weapon classes.  I had to go with 7WM on my hoplite to get a workable amount of 1h/pole and 8WM on my arbomolester to be able to shoot straight and still have a minimum 1h proficiency...and I don't think anyone likes a ranged with 8 athletics.  Being able to more efficiently make use of a side-arm might reduce the gripes about having to pick up a shield as well.   Perhaps an improved "synergy"-type bonus specifically for the 1h proficiency.  One that is gained with investment in any other WPF including ranged...  Yeah, I don't know.  This will take considerably more thought than the thirty minutes I've given it. 

[Gravoth_iii]

Eu1 is dying to ranged spam, then dying to cav spam, if you survive those you die to the groups of 5-6 good players who run around together. Its always been that way.

Buff melee, better shields & better spears. Bigger block radius on shields, reintroduce instant rearing horses with spears.

Some minor things, but in the end people play those classes because they are still fun. I get very bored with melee quick, something about the pace it gone. I can see how people enjoy ranged more, its probably way more rewarding gameplay wise. Same with cav, you get fast paced gameplay with a lot of potential oneshot kills. Compared to melee where you struggle to kill anyone because people block and tank so much.

[Gristle]

Some minor things, but in the end people play those classes because they are still fun.

This is why I'm in favor of buffs over nerfs. Make cRPG fun again!

[Ikarus]

reintroduce instant rearing horses with spears

explain plz because I get reared by any polearm and 2h in polearm mode there is out there

[Gravoth_iii]

explain plz because I get reared by any polearm and 2h in polearm mode there is out there

Spears used to rear horses no matter what, even if its an instant glance thrust. As in native. If you stab towards the horse and it connects in any manner, the horse is stopped.

[Chasey]

Buff melee, better shields & better spears. Bigger block radius on shields, reintroduce instant rearing horses with spears.

Some minor things, but in the end people play those classes because they are still fun. I get very bored with melee quick, something about the pace it gone. I can see how people enjoy ranged more, its probably way more rewarding gameplay wise. Same with cav, you get fast paced gameplay with a lot of potential oneshot kills. Compared to melee where you struggle to kill anyone because people block and tank so much.

This, make melee fun again. Pre turn rate nerf and sweet spot rework. You use to be able to fight several people with ease but now any engagement with more than 3 people becomes a glance fest and the fact everybody is a pro blocker now makes fights last long enough that every 1 on 1 turns into a group fight. I mainly play my crossbow because I don't have to worry about cav, ranged or getting ganked and glancing. Ranged has been the same its always been , its just there's more now because melee isn't as fun and you don't have the tools to fight in groups efficiently anymore. Well that's my opinion anyway

Bring back pre turn rate nerf and old sweetspots !!!

[Paul]

Most of the ridiculously high damage comes from the speed and elevation damage bonuses not the base damage. Hardly anyone is not moving when they get shot.

High shot speed weapons profit the least from movement speed and elevation because their native speed is about a magnitude higher than any impact velocity that can be gained during flight. Throwing weapons are a different story. I explained it here.

Furthermore at some point Tydeus even changed the parameter "missile_damage_speed_power" from the Native exponent(1.9) to a linear relation (exponent 1.0), effectively reducing damage gain/loss from midair projectile velocity change. Dunno if that was reverted though.