Jesus fucking christ, I always knew that Turks were dumb, but NOT THAT DUMB!!!

[Oberyn]

But national trends like these mean nothing to the individual or the town or the county. In your town every single 18-29 yr-old could still comfortably fit within the 37% of their demographic that voted Trump. Threads like these exist to be derailed, OP was good for a chuckle but there's really nowhere to go with it.

Exactly, they don't. Won't stop people like you or Havelle blaming it on all those old farts though. Good job for having learned absolutely nothing. If you think the majority of youth share your self-destructive ideology, you haven't been paying attention. There's also the well known phenomenon of people's political positions evolving over time, but ignore it, it's all good, the answer if just to wait until your "progressive" mores become the status quo, even more than they already are.

Your perspective on democracy is frankly dystopian, and you arrived at it entirely because of a single referendum that was won by your ideological opposition. Yeah I can totally see how you love your culture and country so much, if thats all it takes for you to suddenly see the problem with democracy. Is everything going to be "lol it's the old white people" whenever things turn against you politically? Probably. Hey, let's make it so people with children have more of a voice than people without. Their perspective is clearly more important since they have more at stake. Also let's make people's votes who went through military service having more weight, clearly they deserve it for sacrificing so much for the collective. Etc, etc. Not abhorent or insane at all, not spitting all over centuries of political tradition arrived at through trial and error, just a logical position right? Of course those particular "logical" things don't bring much to the table as far as pushing your political perspective, so it's probably wrong.

[Oberyn]

Here's where I try to tenuously bring this back to the discussion. When someone talks about preserving their country's culture, at least 50% of your own country is guaranteed to disagree with you even over what exactly that culture is or should be. Get rid of these "Christian ideas gone mad", but wasn't most of the west very strongly Christian until the last 100 years? So you want to save your 'culture' (which is entirely subjective), but not the culture you had over the last thousand+ years, only the bits you personally want. A claim like 'we'll lose our culture'... you think you'll ever reach a time where 100% of a country will agree 'yep, it's dead' or 100% will ever agree 'yes, our culture's in a really good place right now' even if no one ever migrated to your country ever? It's a non-argument, one that you cant measure or prove since it's how one person has idealised one country in their own mind, in a way they've probably never experienced. And guess what, a country has a lot of people in it and each person has their own idea of what their 'culture' is. Any discussion of 'saving your culture' will be in direct opposition to the half of your country that disagrees, trying to 'save' them against their will, and they will *not* appreciate being 'saved' in such a way.

"Christian ideas gone mad" isn't a dig on christianity, it's a dig on the practically theological basis of postmodern, marxist, anti-occidental dogmatism. Exemplified so nicely in your bolded moral relativistism. Your strawman is retarded, I'm not interested in bringing back Feudalism either, does that make me a hypocrite for speaking of a french culture? It's very simple, I'm pro Enlightenment ideals, it's not a "subjective" idea, it's an objective and well defined group of mores and ideological positions, one that is under attack because of a disgustingly distorted historical perspective promoted by people who think very like you, in the highest positions of power and influence. The irony of people like you ranting that trying to "save" people against their will is counterproductive is hilarious.

[Oberyn]

Erm, that's exactly what national trends do show. They show majorities.

If the stats from an election show 37% of 18-29yr olds voted Trump, then a majority of 'youth' share my 'self-destructive' ideology. But means nothing to the individual, it doesn't prescribe for example that *all* 18-29yr olds are anti-Trump, but it does tell you what the majority think in that bracket - sorry to shit on your narrative. You may choose to ignore the stats that don't fit your narrative, stick your head in the sand and still pretend this is the winds of change because 37% of young people in America might think like you, but to claim it's the majority is where you fucked up your argument.

You seem to have a problem separating the individuals from the stats, since you pluck the idea that a majority of young people share your values out of thin air in the face of stats showing that the majority of young people don't share yours. Gut feeling?

Your perspective on democracy is that you are happy to ignore what the actual majority of people think, ignore all the numbers, and focus purely on what your gut feeling tells you. You want to believe that the young generation are rising up against liberalism, sure, just ignore all the real-world data that tells you you're dreaming. You're the type of person that sees a single coin-flip land on heads and gets all excited about this long foretold 'heads' uprising, the end of all tails, no coins will ever land on tails ever again because you've seen with your own eyes that all coin flips... oh... the next one was tails. Oh, Trump won the election, that means everyone's going conservative forever. Oh, some Turks burn a flag, that means all Turks hate the west forever.

Majority of youth don't vote, voting stats are inherently useless to try and pin down their opinions. Out of the ones that did vote, the majority voted for Clinton, and you're the one who seems to think this is highly indicative and worthy of basing a self-serving explanation for the failure of your favoured political ideology. Even going so far as to pen an autistically narrow explanation for why democracy is now totally badwrong .

[njames89]

I didn't vote for Trump or Clinton #NOTMYPRESIDENT

[Oberyn]

Modern secular liberalism is just the logical evolution of Enlightenment and Christian values. Its very firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

Yeah it's totally based on logic, they love logic so much. Which is why the founding "thinkers" of this ideology that emerged more or less starting in the 70's rail endlessly against the logocentric, phallocentric nature of the western metanarrative, how metanarratives are inherently meaningless and subjective, all morally equal to each other and merely a mechanism for the Opressor to continue opressing the Opressed, that logic is merely another expression of this mechanism, of the deliberate and endless fragmenting of identity into narrower and narrower circles, etc. It borrowed much, much more from the marxist worldview (largely because it is literally recycled marxism, with the labels of the bourgeois/proletarian dynamic shifted around at will) than anything from the Enlightenment.
Don't even get me started on what they think about christianity and christians lol.

Strange how an ideology whose primary purpose is the self-avowed destruction of both Enlightenment and Christian values is their combined logical endpoint, somehow.

[Gravoth_iii]

"If you are not a Liberal at 25, you have no heart. If you are not a Conservative at 35 you have no brain." -Someone, lets say Churchill, thats what google semi consistently says.

No brain part is over exaggurated, but i do think that the older you get, the more conservative you also become.

[Grytviken]

Modern secular liberalism is just the logical evolution of Enlightenment and Christian values. Its very firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

In order to get people to disregard their tried and true morals and values you must present a better alternative. Emotional whore-mongering and desperate cries for attention based on double standards doesn't seem to be working well for liberals.

[Oberyn]

Majority of youth indeed don't vote. You acknowledge this but still think that democracy is working perfectly?

Yup, because it's the same in every single democracy and isn't due to external factors. Young people don't vote because they're young, news at 11. They don't project themselves into the future as much, have a tendency to live in the moment, and frankly don't give a shit about politics most of the time and have better things to do. You have to be relatively fanatical to give a shit about politics when you're young in this modern day and age. Back when there was the draft it was literally a matter of your own survival to keep abrest of political developments. Now the stakes are more nuanced and the consequences much less immediate.

Better try to base our understanding of what people want based on what actual data we have, than take your mantle of self-appointed soothsayer of doom who reads the mystical portents that no one else

Yeah I'm the only person on the planet that thinks this way, absolutely no one else agrees. If only I could've been properly educated and reached the lofty and supremely important political musings of teenagers. 

That's not all that out there, it's pretty well documented that this is the case. It's not just a one-off that the generation of '56 were born conservative and happen to be old now, people who are young now will become more conservative in their later years.

I did make that point, although I understand how it could get lost amidst all my ranting.

[Oberyn]

If that's the narrative you want to ascribe to. Western thought is shaped and defined by the Christian values, liberalism isn't an exception. I would argue we get the core teachings down better than the right, making it into a practical ethical system(while simultaneously trying to create an alternative system out of it) rather while opting out of the negative, harmful details and silly, overly-literal interpretations.

Yeah keep defining western culture and tradition entirely by it's negative aspects, what could go wrong. Just because you throw "christian values" in there doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. You realize marxism was deeply influenced by certain "christian values" as well, right? That just because an ideology is incredibly idealistic and utopian doesn't somehow make it less of a danger, quite the opposite? You can go seek your shining City on the Hill. I would think the West would have utopia fatigue by now, but apparently we're ready for yet another disaster because it makes a few radicals feel all warm inside.

[njames89]

In high school I had a marxist haircut and facial hair style and let me tell you it was not good

[njames89]

I don't think Christianity is a negative aspect of western culture, its a very nice, religious religion for very nice, religious religion people.

Personally I give it 10 tiny circular bread jesuses out of a possible 10

[Xant]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Oberyn]

Have you just become self-aware? Or do you think you're describing someone that isn't you?

Sure Heskey, believing in the idea of nation states and unique cultures is the radical, utopian perpective. The vaguely cobbled together postmodern vomit you got brainwashed with in your "anthropology" classes is the moderate, logical position. I'm sure it will only be a few more decades before the multicultural wonderland can finally start flourishing, just gotta wait for those pesky old whites to die out. The horde of third worlders that will replace them will, of course, share your far-leftist ideology in every way, not just on the one issue of immigration because it supports their tribalistic ethnic groups. It is well known that they are totally open to "progressive" ideals such as feminism and secularism and etc.

[njames89]

Jokes on you tho Heskey the French are the one true nation appointed by God. Typical english denying us our divinity. Go form a seperate church to divorce your wives why don't you

[Oberyn]

Stupid fucking bundle of sticks bloviating about how nation states and cultures are subjective, meaningless terms cannot perceive how this perspective is informed by radical marxist ideology. Tell me more about how you totally care about the future of England and Europe while simultaneously calling them transient obsolete forms of identification. Why don't you go tell the pakis their identity and religion and everything they hold sacred is nothing but socially constructed phantasms and they should be glad to have them deconstructed and destroyed, you slimy cuck?