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Author Topic: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.  (Read 3122 times)

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Offline MouthnHoof

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A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« on: May 30, 2011, 12:20:24 pm »
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(If you do not care about realism, skip to the next paragraph)
Since the dawn of makind, man has always thought that attaching a long pole by velcro to you back was ridiculous. Throughout history, due to Native limitations, huge weapons could either be attached to the back or made to fold and fit in the pocket. This has changed - the brilliant cRPG modders introduced the "unsheathable" flag. It can be done! we have the technology! So now, large medieval weapons can be treated as in real life - carried in hand and dropped to the ground when another weapons was to be used. There is no reason we should not apply this to most weapons in game to simulate the real limitations vs. advantages of large 2H/pole weapons.

Gameplay balance:
There is continual discontent with the number of people using powerful big weapons. The weapons themselves are fine, but when sheathable, they bypass the main weapon disadvantages - a poleaxe carrier can still use a shield and near insta-switch to his big whopper when he enters melee. He can have it on his back when lancing and then pull it out when de-horsed. etc. I believe that such weapons should not be used by cavalry (even ignoring the history aspect) or in combination with any ranged weapon. Infantry that choose to wield them should suffer the attached drawbacks (no shield switching, no switching weapons back and forth). On top of that, some sheathable weapons have a very similar counterpart which is for some reason unsheathable - so either both should be sheath or unsheathable (preferably the latter).

Benefits of "cannot sheath" flag:
As a compensation (game play) and appropriately (realism), the slot requirement of these weapons should be reduced - they are carried in hand after all. I think 1 or even 0 slot is acceptable in these cases. It will not help much to any ranged character because these weapons will drop to the ground the moment the player tries to switch to his ranged weapon.

Weapons that really should be unsheathable:
--------------------------------------------------------------
* Elegant poleaxe
* German poleaxe
* Great long bardiche + Long bardiche - the only difference of the "short" version is the tip of the blade.
* Glaive - The Swiss is 2 cm longer, lost the swing and cannot sheath. Glaive can keep the swing, but not the sheath.
* Poleaxe - I am sorry, but it looks idiotic sticking half a meter above the carrier's head.
* Long hafted blade
* Awlpike - 1 cm less than the Ashwood pike makes it sheathable?
* Long Maul
* Long hafted spiked/knobbed mace

About the long axes:
Axes can and were carried on back. You can find scabbards for wood axes in stores - but these were much shorter than the long axes. Again, the main argument here is the game balancing, excluding these weapons from becoming sidearms:
* Great long axe
* Long war axe

I would go on and on with the unsheathable polearms list, but for game's sake and the outcry that will come, we can leave a few sheathable polearms.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:23:03 pm by MouthnHoof »

Offline Joelturuz

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 01:31:57 pm »
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Can't help noticing those weapons are all polearms. If that is introduced, the best 2H should be given the same treatment.
Else the gap between the two will grow even larger.

Offline Torben

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 02:05:33 pm »
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Can't help noticing those weapons are all polearms. If that is introduced, the best 2H should be given the same treatment.
Else the gap between the two will grow even larger.
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 02:14:42 pm »
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Then again, this would be an indirect buff to cav like in the last 2 patches.
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Offline Christo

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 02:17:10 pm »
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Can't help noticing those weapons are all polearms. If that is introduced, the best 2H should be given the same treatment.
Else the gap between the two will grow even larger.

This.

Sorry, but your suggestion is crap.

It's heavily biased towards 2h, this nerf of yours would slap Polearms in the face, then... okay you get it, it's not gonna' happen.
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Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 02:25:02 pm »
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Can't help noticing those weapons are all polearms. If that is introduced, the best 2H should be given the same treatment.
Else the gap between the two will grow even larger.
I agree, but one step at a time.
I know that if I suggested this for 2H swords I will be bombarded with arguments about how they could be /did carried on the back (true, for travel and with limited draw ability on some). At least sheathing polearms is so idiotic that even out-of-context historical aguments do not support attaching a stick to the back.

With 2H swords it may be possible to slow down the draw animation. I never modded in WB, but in old M&B there was a frame-rate parameter for animations. It should be possible to make "over the shoulder" unsheathing animation VERY slow for 2H and the polearms which are still allowed on the back. None of the 1H are carried on the back and use those animations iirc. Some short 2H are drawn from the hip and will still enjoy fast draw.

One step at a time.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 02:33:30 pm by MouthnHoof »

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 02:32:01 pm »
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It's heavily biased towards 2h, this nerf of yours would slap Polearms in the face, then... okay you get it, it's not gonna' happen.
It is not biased towards 2H, it is biased against polerams on the back - also, see my above post regarding 2H. It is not a nerf either since it does not make the big polearms any more or less effective in actual combat - only less versatile and somewhat restricted from ranged and cavalry.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 04:58:43 pm »
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A polearm user myself, I actually have to agree with this. It just makes sense :p

Gameplay-wise, I'm not sure about the awlpike tho, it's currently the only semi-reliable out-of-your-pocket-counter to lancers, takes 2 slots and is damn expensive. Maybe reduce the slot req for poles? (And nerf cav! But that's another discussion)

I think this would separate 2h and poles abit more (which is good imo!), making poles the choice for melee hybrids who wants cav defence/support capability whilst still having slots to spare, and 2h the choice for more on-the-spot adaptability (shieldbreak, crushthrough, archer etc...). Both types would still be usable as primary weps ofc.
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Offline Shablagoo

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 10:20:40 pm »
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Maybe add the Great Maul to that list?  No clue how you'd strap that thing to your back.

Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 11:56:02 pm »
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Indirect buff to cav.
Eliminates polearm hybrids.
-1 from me.

And for the record, I'm a 2h. Polearm are fine.

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2011, 01:40:49 am »
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Indirect buff to cav.
The real anti cav weapons are already unsheathable. Non of these weapons is any more anti-can than a 2H sword and their main role is melee - by far. Awlpike may be the only exception.

Eliminates polearm hybrids.
Eliminates polearm as sidearm hybrids. No archer/xbow/thrower/cav should be using a big poleaxe as a backup weapon. Nothing prevents them from starting with it in hand, in particular if the 0-slot suggestion is included.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 01:42:40 am by MouthnHoof »

Offline Casimir

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 02:20:56 am »
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would also nerf cav as it would stop them taking a decent polearm side arms.
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Offline Beans

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2011, 02:31:28 am »
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The top level polearms don't see that much use right now, if they became unsheathable they would probably disappear entirely. I'm specifically thinking about the german poleaxe, poleaxe and elegant poleaxe. I don't have any problem with them becoming unsheathable because I think that makes a lot of sense but I think they would need to have some kind of compensation, probably make them cheaper? They are already kind of powerful so I don't think increasing their stats would be a good idea so making them cost less is the only think I can think of.

Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2011, 03:15:24 am »
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I mainly play polearms (poleaxe, awlpike, etc) and I would like to see them flagged with "unsheathable".

I'd rather see my build "hurt" than play in some unrealistic cartoony world where polearms are magnetically attached to your back or shoved so far up your ass that they disappear.

2H swords should NOT be flagged BECAUSE that is why swords were useful historically. They are light and easy to sheath/draw.

Some 2H weapons like the Great maul should also be unsheathable as it is inconceivable how you could store such a cumbersome weapon on your person

Offline Rhaelys

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Re: A few weapons that really should be unsheathable.
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 03:33:46 am »
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You realize that this nerfs even pure Polearm melee users? Making those weapons unsheathable makes it impossible to also equip a shield on your back.

So you want a PURE MELEE USER to be unable to shield himself against ranged?
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