LIVE YOUR MYTH IN FRANCE.

[Falka]

Condemning random countrymen of his simply because they're his countrymen though?

I think he doesn't mind. After all he doesn't mind that Panos is happy because of death of 200 frenchmen.

So Overdriven is trash because he's a muslim.

Yes.

Hesky, you see the difference now?

[Tydeus]

Yes.


Do you even read? Maybe I did put the words in his mouth, but he said them and it was sufficient to get around the pages and pages of 'you say I think X! I don't think X at all' without ever stating what he does think. Well now, we have it.

As for the rest, i'll talk on Oberyn's level if I fancy. It's been allowed perfectly fine up to this point, and I'm enjoying the results.

After all, I clearly only don't have an issue with the muslims in my country because I'm afraid of causing offence (you can tell by the way I talk that causing offense deeply concerns me). And my position has never been treat everyone lovely, I've never claimed to be the nice guy in all this. My position is that we should do everything possible to punish the trash, individuals who are proven to be dangerous, breaking the law, threatening violence, whatever.

Where I'm 'radical' in defending islam, is that out of all muslims I've personally known in my country not a single one of them falls into that category. If you punish the religion you punish all of them, and that would mean punishing innocent people. I'm not down with that. This does not mean I'm a paragon of love and forgiveness, if an individual terrorist butchers civilians then hang-draw-and-quarter them in public for all I care regardless of whether he's sorry or not.

For me what this comes down to is, does any action from individuals of a religion justify punishment of everyone? I will violently defend my position that it does not, that's not how our society or our laws work.



I didn't condemn any of his countrymen for being his countrymen, I quite clearly stated that innocents should never have to suffer in situations such as these. I absolutely put thought into it as I was typing it, specifically the ways in which it could be misconstrued - since we all know these forums fairly well by now.

If someone says thing A, then you interpret it as thing B and ask if he said thing B, he didn't say it until you put the words in his mouth. So yes, I read that more accurately than you did.

Just because you preface a shitty statement with "innocents should never have to suffer" doesn't mean you now have the moral high-ground. That's equivalent to the "I'm not a racist but" speech.

"If you punish the religion you punish all of them, and that would mean punishing innocent people."

What is meant by "punish" here? Are you referring to something specific or using the term generally?

I think he doesn't mind. After all he doesn't mind that Panos is happy because of death of 200 frenchmen.

Irrelevant to the point I was making though.

[Bittersteel]

I'm one of Oberyn's countrymen and I understand HeskeyTime bout. Used to feel his way, got real mad at Oberyn or Dave once or twice

and don't you feel like a proper twat now that he's dead

[Tydeus]

and don't you feel like a proper twat now that he's dead

DaveUKR? And by dead do you actually mean dead, or simply no longer a part of this community?

[Bittersteel]

Dead. It's a shame because Butan used to poke fun at his cancer and in the end, that's what killed him.

[Falka]

And I do indeed see the difference, one of my quotes contains a fullstop at the end, the other does not.

Clearly we don't think about the same thing 

[Tydeus]

He agreed when i asked that thing B is exactly what he was saying, so clearly I read what he was actually saying better than you for me to get such succinct clarification from him.

And my preface absolutely confirms that I'm not condemning his countrymen. Butan gets it, why dont you?

Benefit of the doubt, that's why.

Carrying out an argument or conversation with people while assuming the worst about the statements of those you don't agree with is the best way to not hear their arguments. You're just sitting alone in your own sound chamber at that point. So as a matter of principle, I find it intolerable. Because regardless of what he said he meant (or if he just cba to say "no, that wasn't what I was saying" because as stated previously, he's frustrated with people not taking Muslim beliefs seriously), you still had to assume the worst prior to his clarification, for you to ramble off those two follow-up paragraphs.

So again I ask the following.

If you punish the religion you punish all of them, and that would mean punishing innocent people.

What is meant by "punish" here? Are you referring to something specific or using the term generally?

[Angantyr]

lol

Not saying other ethnicities don't belong in the US of course, but it has had a European-American majority since its founding.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Wow this shit deteriorated pretty damn quick.
Barring the harsh language used (though he didn't say overdriven was trash, nor did he attack HIM necessarily until you put the words in his mouth), everything Oberyn said about what Muslims produce nowadays is true. Once the heart of science and discovery, now is promissory of diminutive scientific influence. 1.3-1.6 billion Muslims, two Nobel Prizes in science. Had the rise of anti-rationalism never taken hold in the Muslim world and influenced Islam so heavily, perhaps half(or more) could be attributed to Muslims nowadays.

Did you watch Neil deGrasse Tyson videos?

[Grytviken]

Well, it really hasn't. The primary culture it is built on, which has built everything from infrastructure to its institutions, is European culture. But sure, they had to live with all their imported slaves not in colonies like we did but actually in their own backyards, and the history of the trouble that has brought is long and bloody and still ongoing. The country is very large though so people can clump up in ethnic regions, that's is basically the extent of diversity outside certain areas in the major cities. Take a look at the maps here, how black and white communities still live apart to a very high degree (same can be seen in interracial marriages btw.) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35255835

I'm also not surprised, nor has anyone been since its founding, that America would take a leading role in industry, considering its vast size, immense ressources and near unheard of defensible natural borders.

Only 3/4 of 1% of Americans owned slaves in 1860, a very small minority of descendants of English Aristocracy that basically lived in their own colonies or plantations. While this institution has clearly brought about unending problems for the US it's never correctly viewed in it's context of it's historical era. Europeans in the Caribbean, mainly the Spanish, worked their slaves to death then replaced them because it was cheaper then feeding and housing them, America has received a terrible reputation for slavery but in fact if slaves were not purchased by wealthy English aristocrats in America most wouldn't have survived in Spanish captivity very long. 

The main issue here now is economic inequality, but this is nothing new really. Alot of people including many whites have chosen to accept welfare culture as the norm when it was never meant to be more than an economic safety net. I believe that this is mostly a personal choice and people have just become too comfortable with it. You can easily find a mindless job that pays 15 dollars an hour without any education or requisites. If anything separates the United States from Europe it is that independence and self reliance is the backbone of our values and the never-ending amount of options we have available.

 In many job areas experience is still valued over education, even without an education you can still make a very good living for yourself. There is still an enormous amount of acres of land available for fairly low prices, you can still affordably build or purchase your own house and create your own dream life here if you are willing to put in the work. Vehicles are also fairly cheap here and we probably have the best highway and road system in the world, so even if you can't find a job you're looking for locally it's not a big problem, being in a rural area doesn't really feel all the rural when you have the ability to go anywhere you want fairly fast and with ease without having to plan your day around bus stops and public trans.

[Bittersteel]

Took me a second to get the joke. When I did, I must admit, I had myself a good chuckle.I typically don't find 'internet humor' especially amusing or relatable, in fact it took me years to figure out what an 'youtube' was. Nonetheless, in today's bitter political climate, I find solace in a little bit of an injection of humor into this crazy world. Anyways, good job, hope to see more of this in the future.

[Thomek]

I understand it like this: Heskey for once gave Oberyn back in similar style that Oberyn also tends flavor and generalize to the extreme. (I now read his comments trying to jump over the adjectives and colorful descriptions. It's too much really, and doesn't make his points come across stronger.) Now, I also do think Overdriven, although a fool, behaves way classier than Oberyn does, generally.

I was actually surprised that Oberyn would settle for a surprisingly realistic immigration policy though. I mean you get the feeling he wants to burn 1.3 Billion people.

----------

Anyway, I do think Fortress Europe is coming sooner or later. It simply makes too much sense for everyone south of the Mediterranean to escape their fucked up countries. And the better those countries do, the more people are enabled one way or another to try. And it's the best and smartest who will succeed, resulting in just another evil circle.

[Turkhammer]

I was actually surprised that Oberyn would settle for a surprisingly realistic immigration policy though. I mean you get the feeling he wants to burn 1.3 Billion people.

----------

I never got that impression.  I think he just wants to burn the idiots who want to bury their heads in the sand and deny that unbridled immigration is not the best thing ever. 

[Overdriven]

Now, I also do think Overdriven, although a fool, behaves way classier than Oberyn does, generally.

From the ninja I used to enjoy trampling with my horse I'll take that! 

I never got that impression.  I think he just wants to burn the idiots who want to bury their heads in the sand and deny that unbridled immigration is not the best thing ever.

Thing is I don't think me or Heskey have ever argued that unbridled immigration is a good idea. I'm all for more controls. It's the general all round hate of everything to do with a religion, with no consideration for the vastly differing people who practice it that we disagree with. Oberyn seems to put everyone associated with Islam under one umbrella and that's a very narrow field of view.

[Butan]

I never got that impression.  I think he just wants to burn the idiots who want to bury their heads in the sand and deny that unbridled immigration is not the best thing ever.

That would already quite a lot of millions people to burn though!